Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

[luka_zg]

Guys, don't immediately assume that people that don't like the current ME are also failing in FM14.

I did pretty well in my first season, better than expected actually, but that didn't change the fact that the whole experience wasn't satisfying and destroyed my immersion.

And honestly, I think the tactics are easier this year with less details to "fiddle" with.

What threw me off (and I know I've said that 100 times already) is that I would dominate a game and would have something like 30-2 shots and would win 2-1 in the end. Completely unrealistic stuff, way too many shots and way too many CCCs missed etc etc

Exactly what I was saying. Because if it were 7-2 in shots and I win 2-1, I would not have anything to say but try to work out why so few shots against weaker opponent. But 30 shots tends to be an indication that your team is playing well. Because out of 30 shots there is maybe 2 or 3 CCC, few woodworks etc..So now what, should I try and imptove my tactic to have 90 shots per game in order to win 3-1?

[Schotsmannetje]

I've never seen that happen, post it in the bugs forum please

Yeah just did

I noticed that three times in a row a player was removed as a transfer target immediately after adding them and started doing some research as to why.

[Ackter]

Exactly what I was saying. Because if it were 7-2 in shots and I win 2-1, I would not have anything to say but try to work out why so few shots against weaker opponent. But 30 shots tends to be an indication that your team is playing well. Because out of 30 shots there is maybe 2 or 3 CCC, few woodworks etc..So now what, should I try and imptove my tactic to have 90 shots per game in order to win 3-1?

I'm sorry, but 30 shots and only 2 or 3 CCCs is not a good tactic, at all.

Anyway, that's enough of this, seriously. Post match engine and tactical issues in the tactics forum for advice, or the bug forum if you genuinely think there's a bug (note: posting in the tactics forum first will help you decide if it's actually a bug and provide you with plenty of feedback to supply in the bugs forum if it is).

[Dennis_Ajax]

Did the patch went beta this weekend? Any news from SI?

[thomas_e]

I think there's a good point hiding in here, which is that for the vast majority of FM's audience -- the many thousands who would never think to even visit a forum like this -- the game shouldn't punish them unduly for using one of the game's default formations with default instructions. If they're starting up a save year after year with Man City or Real Madrid or Bayern Munich, they should be able to find reasonable success without getting into the minutiae of how a CM(S) moves into channels while a CM(D) does not.

For those of us who pick unusual teams or start unemployed with a sunday league rep, yes, the game should be a deep, nuanced, and at times downright difficult challenge. For those of us who want to maximize and finetune every detail of their tactic and achieve remarkable tactical feats, yes, that should be really, really hard to master.

But the guy who's checking in to the series every couple of years because he thinks he can do better than Moyes with Man Utd right now has probably quit in frustration this year because he can't get a basic 4-2-3-1 not to leak goals. And he might not be back.

This is a really good post, that raises an important issue. The moderators in here spend a lot of time trying to make the FM experience for every kind of player and IMO they are doing a great job! It's nothing wrong with having an argument, but some of the conspiracy theories flying around this forum is getting a bit out of hand.

SI on the other hand, need to realise that not everyone spend hours analyzing all their matches trying to create the best possible throw in tactic, or spend time scouting Milwall creating a masterplan to beat them in the upcoming FA cup match with Boston Utd (I do , and love it, but I get why some don't ).

I love starting unemployed, taking charge over teams tipped for relegation etc., but the game needs to be playable for every kind of player, also the ones that just want to win the Premiership with Man Utd and bring back C. Ronaldo.

Can't wait for the patch to get here as I want to start av proper lower league save and feel that the game is how I want it to be! Challenging and rewarding!

[mortiis7]

why player roles and atributes have no meaning..how can central defender be put as a poacher and scored 32 goals in 32 games...jesus christ whats wrong with this game...

[sirgiorgio]

It's not a case of the human suffering from it because of tactics or whatever, it's because the ME discriminates against the better team, human or AI.

I think it's quite the opposite. Almost... In terms of performance, better teams and teams with more attacking tactics tend to dominate nearly every game they play. Problem is, the final scores usually don't reflect their total domination. If defending/defensive tactics worked as they should, human managers wouldn't feel "cheated" when they lose games "they should have won", because they could SEE why their tactics don't work or if their players aren't doing what they ask them to.

I'm under the impression that the ME tries hard to find a balance between "unrealistic" performances and "realistic" results.

Just a silly example: the corner bug. Let's say a total of 50 goals will be scored in the forthcoming World Cup and 5% of them come from corner. Now, I make me a ME (I would if I could ) where 50 goals are scored, but 25% of them come from corner. This means: a. in my ME there will be less "potential goalscoring opportunities" (penalties, free kicks, ccc, long shots...); b. my World Cup will be won by the team with the better corner taker and "goalscoring defenders".

[Ackter]

Post it in the bugs forum.

Though his physical attributes are amazing for a poor league, so it's not too surprising he can run fast and kick the ball (which is pretty much all that's required from a poacher).

[Schotsmannetje]

why player roles and atributes have no meaning..how can central defender be put as a poacher and scored 32 goals in 32 games...jesus christ whats wrong with this game...

A shots on target rate of nearly 60% in the league with 10 finishing, 7 long shots, 11 composure and 11 heading seems ridiculous. All he has is pace and acceleration.

[Ackter]

A shots on target rate of nearly 60% in the league with 10 finishing, 7 long shots, 11 composure and 11 heading seems ridiculous. All he has is pace and acceleration.

In a league where 14 is considered an amazing attribute tbh.

There's also no indication of the type of goal.

[jam jameson]

My two cents:

I agree with the people who argue that the most important aspect of the game is the ME. For me, at least, it is by far the most important aspect of the game. Even though I love some of the additions in this year's version in terms of UI streamlining and the like, my feelings are still mixed because of the way ME plays out.

I will not repeat here all the issues people reported about the ME: the fullbacks, lack of effective through balls from the middle, crossing, corners and such (Oh, look, I just did ). Besides these my biggest problem is that I feel the players are not responsive enough and aware enough of what is going on around them. I hate seeing a player of mine starting to run for a ball that was bounced away from the opposition block, when there is a player down the pitch, who is in a much better position to get to the ball once we take into account the ball's future projected movement. Instead, the guy who was closest to the ball at the time it was bounced starts running and quite often a team is beaten to the ball by opposition even though the team had a player perfectly positioned to intercept it, but he was "inactive".

My biggest issue is that all the problems with the ME translates to the way tactics is played out. For example, I played my first long term game with Strasbourg, starting in French National (3rd tier). After two back-to-back promotions I found myself in League 1. The first season in the first tier I was predicted to finish 20th, and I set my tactics in such a way as to reflect my relative strength - I decided to play a rigid and counterattacking style with lots of long balls and direct play. Hoping my tall forward and quick wingers will get some opportunity to score from time to time while being solid defensively. The season was pretty bad. I did manage to stay up, but just barely (finishing 17th), but the problem was we played horribly. Most of the times we won - we were lucky, and very often the opposition simply destroyed us with 2 or 3 goals.

Now, in my 4th season, I was again predicted to finish 20th. Granted, there were some new players coming in (vast majority of the first team remained the same), and the team blended better - but still. I changed the tactics to a very fluid control type approach with high pressing and very cautious short passes and solid build-up coupled with slow tempo. Basically I'm asking of my kids who are predicted to come last to play like Barcelona. Guess what? I'm currently 5th in the league after 25 games and have one of the best defensive records of the league.

It doesn't seem realistic.

What does not seem realistic is that you can notice the difference between the different tactical approaches...do you see full highlights match or just the key highlights?

[Kriss]

Just a silly example: the corner bug. Let's say a total of 50 goals will be scored in the forthcoming World Cup and 5% of them come from corner. Now, I make me a ME (I would if I could ) where 50 goals are scored, but 25% of them come from corner. This means: a. in my ME there will be less "potential goalscoring opportunities" (penalties, free kicks, ccc, long shots...); b. my World Cup will be won by the team with the better corner taker and "goalscoring defenders".

You do realise that this way lies madness?

[mortiis7]

In a league where 14 is considered an amazing attribute tbh.

There's also no indication of the type of goal.

so that means croatian researchers are to blame because they give him such a big attributes..and Mario Maloča isnt nearly that fast..he could have maximum 12-13 speed

but thats not nothing weird,cuz every year they made a lot of mistakes...

[SurferJames]

I agree with Kriss that would be insane and almost laughable

[Ackter]

so that means croatian researchers are to blame because they give him such a big attributes..and Mario Maloča isnt nearly that fast..he could have maximum 12-13 speed

but thats not nothing weird,cuz every year they made a lot of mistakes...

You've kind of missed the point there entirely.

Did you raise his performances in the bugs forum ?

[luka_zg]

I'm sorry, but 30 shots and only 2 or 3 CCCs is not a good tactic, at all.

Anyway, that's enough of this, seriously. Post match engine and tactical issues in the tactics forum for advice, or the bug forum if you genuinely think there's a bug (note: posting in the tactics forum first will help you decide if it's actually a bug and provide you with plenty of feedback to supply in the bugs forum if it is).

Especially in ME which does not classify 1on1 chance as a CCC :rofl:

[milnerpoint]

18 for acceleration at that level is nuts like! No wonder he can score goals, he could out pace and out muscle almost every defender he comes up against which i would imagine leads to lots of easy tap ins.

Still its worth posting that in the bugs forum.

[Ackter]

Especially in ME which does not classify 1on1 chance as a CCC :rofl:

I advise you to go post in the tactics forum so you can actually learn something about how the match engine works.

Any more tactical posts in here and they're just getting deleted tbh.

[Bello di Notte]

i would be fair if someone from SI could tell us how testing goes...

[mortiis7]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/372872-Defender-scores-amazing-amount-of-goals?p=9190964#post9190964

i've just did..

[Ackter]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/372872-Defender-scores-amazing-amount-of-goals?p=9190964#post9190964

i've just did..

Cheers

[Shake Appeal]

Apart from his awful Off the Ball, that centre-back doesn't have any glaring flaws, does have excellent physical attributes, and also has several other things in his toolkit (Aggression/Bravery/Work Rate) that probably help get him carve out chances that don't require great technical attributes to score.

We'd have to see the goals he was scoring, but there's a good chance he could just be bullying defenders to get to rebounds/goalmouth scrambles. And he's probably good at set pieces, too.

[Ackter]

It's not really that awful an off the ball rating for the standard of the league, either. It's certainly not great, but is more the lower end of average at that level.

[SurferJames]

i would be fair if someone from SI could tell us how testing goes...

I think they will whe. They are happy with where it is at and concrete.

[luka_zg]

Apart from his awful Off the Ball, that centre-back doesn't have any glaring flaws, does have excellent physical attributes, and also has several other things in his toolkit (Aggression/Bravery/Work Rate) that probably help get him carve out chances that don't require great technical attributes to score.

We'd have to see the goals he was scoring, but there's a good chance he could just be bullying defenders to get to rebounds/goalmouth scrambles. And he's probably good at set pieces, too.

I'll put Phil Jones for a poacher tonight. Will report how he handles it.

[s6hammer]

Just to clarify will the next 'update/patch' just be for the ME or will it contain other fixes as well?

[Ackter]

I'll put Phil Jones for a poacher tonight. Will report how he handles it.

In the tactics and/or bug forums.

[penza]

I'm sorry, but 30 shots and only 2 or 3 CCCs is not a good tactic, at all.

Anyway, that's enough of this, seriously. Post match engine and tactical issues in the tactics forum for advice, or the bug forum if you genuinely think there's a bug (note: posting in the tactics forum first will help you decide if it's actually a bug and provide you with plenty of feedback to supply in the bugs forum if it is).

I am sorry but any tactic should not even be able to shoot that many times... everyone in fm has on average 15-30 shots per game why is that in the premier league the highest average is 18.2 (by Tottenham) and the league average is 14.5?? anything over 20 is unrealistic thus even if the tactic is poor unless you instruct specifically shoot everything you have the ball which 99% of the tactics don't then that should not happen!

[milnerpoint]

Apart from his awful Off the Ball, that centre-back doesn't have any glaring flaws, does have excellent physical attributes, and also has several other things in his toolkit (Aggression/Bravery/Work Rate) that probably help get him carve out chances that don't require great technical attributes to score.

We'd have to see the goals he was scoring, but there's a good chance he could just be bullying defenders to get to rebounds/goalmouth scrambles. And he's probably good at set pieces, too.

I've seen strikers with finishing 11 have great careers at that level of football.

[kotzemazza]

18 for acceleration at that level is nuts like! No wonder he can score goals, he could out pace and out muscle almost every defender he comes up against which i would imagine leads to lots of easy tap ins.

Still its worth posting that in the bugs forum.

To be fair, some of the moderators argued that one of the things that made FM13 and 14's ME superior to FM12's was the lack of the explosive lone striker exploit, particularly as a part of a 4-2-3-1 formation. The one that led extremly high goal counts by those type of strikers. What you are saying now is that it is entirely normal that the new ME allows fast-paced strikers to rip defences appart, which kind of contradicts the moderator's opinion. And we are talking about a defender playing in the striker's position, mind you. it is kind of confusing, for me at least. :confused:

[Ackter]

To be fair, some of the moderators argued that one of the things that made FM13 and 14's ME superior to FM12's was the lack of the explosive lone striker exploit, particularly as a part of a 4-2-3-1 formation. The one that led extremly high goal counts by those type of strikers. What you are saying now is that it is entirely normal that the new ME allows fast-paced strikers to rip defences appart, which kind of contradicts the moderator's opinion. And we are taling about a defender playing in the stricker's position, mind you. it is kind of confusing, for me at least. :confused:

This guy is scoring one goal per game in a low standard league.

My striker in FM11 scored 120 goals in 50 games in the Premiership.

[Ackter]

If it's a bug, post in the bugs forum.

If it's a tactical issue you're experiencing, post it in the tactics forum to see if it's a tactical issue or a bug.

This is a thread for constructive feedback, not a bitch and moan session. Read the House rules.

[akkm]

Post it in the bugs forum.

Though his physical attributes are amazing for a poor league, so it's not too surprising he can run fast and kick the ball (which is pretty much all that's required from a poacher).

But wasn't one of the criticisms of FM12 that fast poacher exploited the ME and one of the advances 'heralded' of the new ME that this 'exploit' was prevented so good was the new ME but you're saying it is still easily doable ?!!! Hmmm

[Jimmious7]

I am sorry but any tactic should not even be able to shoot that many times... everyone in fm has on average 15-30 shots per game why is that in the premier league the highest average is 18.2 (by Tottenham) and the league average is 14.5?? anything over 20 is unrealistic thus even if the tactic is poor unless you instruct specifically shoot everything you have the ball which 99% of the tactics don't then that should not happen!

And mind you, the Premier League is NOT a good example. It's like the most free-flowing and attacking league in the world.

I do hope the ME is made in a way that it will allow all leagues to seem normal, not only the top/best ones.

I mean for example in the Greek Superleague the average shots per game (for both teams combined) is around 20. Currently the amounts that I see in FM14 are around 30-35, that's exactly what I call unrealistic

[milnerpoint]

To be fair, some of the moderators argued that one of the things that made FM13 and 14's ME superior to FM12's was the lack of the explosive lone striker exploit, particularly as a part of a 4-2-3-1 formation. The one that led extremly high goal counts by those type of strikers. What you are saying now is that it is entirely normal that the new ME allows fast-paced strikers to rip defences appart, which kind of contradicts the moderator's opinion. And we are talking about a defender playing in the striker's position, mind you. it is kind of confusing, for me at least. :confused:

Thats not what im saying at all. No matter what ME, a player that is 3/4 points in quickness ahead of the rest of the league is always going to have an advantage, add in that he is stronger than most at that level and he is always likely to get into positions to score. He has finishing 10, again at that level its not bad and composure of 11 again, at that level that is very good.

[Ackter]

But wasn't one of the criticisms of FM12 that fast poacher exploited the ME and one of the advances 'heralded' of the new ME that this 'exploit' was prevented so good was the new ME but you're saying it is still easily doable ?!!! Hmmm

An exceptional physical specimen like that player scoring a lot of goals in a poor league is hardly surprising.

[themadsheep2001]

But wasn't one of the criticisms of FM12 that fast poacher exploited the ME and one of the advances 'heralded' of the new ME that this 'exploit' was prevented so good was the new ME but you're saying it is still easily doable ?!!! Hmmm

No the issue was that he could literally run through a player

[Ackter]

And mind you, the Premier League is NOT a good example. It's like the most free-flowing and attacking league in the world.

I do hope the ME is made in a way that it will allow all leagues to seem normal, not only the top/best ones.

I mean for example in the Greek Superleague the average shots per game (for both teams combined) is around 20. Currently the amounts that I see in FM14 are around 30-35, that's exactly what I call unrealistic

Too many shots overall has already been confirmed as an issue and is being looked into.

That's not what most people in here are complaining about. They're complaining that they're not scoring a high enough percentage of their shots, which is a tactical issue.

[mortiis7]

An exceptional physical specimen like that player scoring a lot of goals in a poor league is hardly surprising.

yeah but he also scored 10 goals in 10 matches in europa league

[Dagenham_Dave]

An exceptional physical specimen like that player scoring a lot of goals in a poor league is hardly surprising.

Correct, it's the same reason Lee McCulloch, a centre half, scored so many goals in the Scottish 3rd Division last season. He's a beast of a player.

[akkm]

Thats not what im saying at all. No matter what ME, a player that is 3/4 points in quickness ahead of the rest of the league is always going to have an advantage, add in that he is stronger than most at that level and he is always likely to get into positions to score. He has finishing 10, again at that level its not bad and composure of 11 again, at that level that is very good.

That shows a profound lack of understanding of football...it's football not an athletics meet...faster/stronger viewpoint equates to a rudimentary approach to the game..it's the croatian league..its not Sunday league where over the top football gets chased down by faster stronger strikers to score...organization technical quality in Croatian league...WOW

[milnerpoint]

That shows a profound lack of understanding of football...it's football not an athletics meet...faster/stronger viewpoint equates to a rudimentary approach to the game..it's the croatian league..its not Sunday league where over the top football gets chased down by faster stronger strikers to score...organization technical quality in Croatian league...WOW

I dont think we're here to discuss my or your understanding of football.

At that level he is a decent poacher because of the aforementioned attributes, choose to ignore that if you want and only focus on the fact he is a defender if that suits your argument better, but its the facts. Croatian league is not a great level of football where 14's are considered very good, to have 18's at that level is exceptional.

[busken]

Trust me, I'm desperately trying to get my CM(A) to unlearn 'Shoots from Distance' for that reason.

But it is also my anecdotal experience that this current version of the ME throws up plenty of what look like clear cut chances, but doesn't classify them as such either because the depiction/animation is falling short. Or because SI wanted to rebalance the wacky high scorelines of an earlier beta version. Or both.

I would say I see on average 1-2 chances like the above per game, both from my team and the AI, and the are almost invariably hit tamely at the keeper. There is an also a seeming issue where strikers fire on first sight of goal, instead of running a few yards forward into space first. When these things combine, it leads to an overall sense that one-one-ones are less effective than they should be, and less effective then they were in previous versions of the game.

And unless you watch on Full (or Comprehensive?) or go through all your shots one by one in the analysis tool, you won't see a lot of these chances precisely because the game doesn't seem to think they're good opportunities to score.

This is by far my biggest issue with this game. Because of what looks like generel defending-issues, this game is simply producing too many shots. And what a coninsidence that the beta goal-fest, was suddenly self-solved by strikers hardly scoring on what looks like 100% chances. I got my theories (the above ss, backs it up very well), but last time I asked a SI employee about them, an entire thread was deleted. What I can claim though (without anything getting deleted), is that Messi, Neymar & Hulk seem to be missing these chances far more often, than they should. Im using as many "play into box" settings I possible can and it seems to work, as I rarely see those ridiculous long shots, but instead I see loads of sitters and 1v1's of which my world-class strikers conversion rate is unbelieveable poor. I loaded up some of my FM13 saves and found out that Messi is using about twice as many shots to score in this years FM, than most of my great poachers did in FM13. So about 50% more shots this year and about 50% worse poacher conversion rate. Makes sense? If intended, yes. Realistic? No. Tactics? I dont even...

[akkm]

I dont think we're here to discuss my or your understanding of football.

At that level he is a decent poacher because of the aforementioned attributes, choose to ignore that if you want and only focus on the fact he is a defender if that suits your argument better, but its the facts. Croatian league is not a great level of football where 14's are considered very good, to have 18's at that level is exceptional.

How many 'decent' poachers score 32 in 33...he also has 12 in 12 in continental competition so your poor league argument falls down horrendously there. Also that you see 18/16 acceleration and pace would mean he can score so many goals is a very basic very British football view of what should happen and translates to good goalscoring in European leagues...essentially his pace is exploiting the ME...if you see that you see it, if you don't then you simply don't

[daylight]

why player roles and atributes have no meaning..how can central defender be put as a poacher and scored 32 goals in 32 games...jesus christ whats wrong with this game...

I like how everyone saying that this player would score so many goals in a poor Croatian League (it is not that poor) are also totally missing that this player, a central defender has also scored 12 goals in 12 games in continental matches.

Pace and acceleration alone should not make him a goalscoring machine with pretty poor with poor stats off the ball, first touch, technique and very average for finishing.

I would post this in the bugs forum, a central defender should not be able to perform like this as a poucher.

[Ackter]

It's in the Europa League, which is hardly a great standard either.

A player with those physicals and mentals could walk into a mid-Premiership side tbh. Its only his heading and marking letting him down. (Obviously his decisions and concentration aren't great, but there's plenty examples of that in the Permiership).

Anyway, this issue has already been bugged so it's in the hands of SI now. Let's leave it, please.

[mortiis7]

I like how everyone saying that this player would score so many goals in a poor Croatian League (it is not that poor) are also totally missing that this player, a central defender has also scored 12 goals in 12 games in continental matches.

Pace and acceleration alone should not make him a goalscoring machine with pretty poor with poor stats off the ball, first touch, technique and very average for finishing.

I would post this in the bugs forum, a central defender should not be able to perform like this as a poucher.

i have posted it here

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/372876-Defender-scores-amazing-amount-of-goals

[daylight]

It's in the Europa League, which is hardly a great standard either.

A player with those physicals and mentals could walk into a mid-Premiership side tbh. Its only his heading and marking letting him down. (Obviously his decisions and concentration aren't great, but there's plenty examples of that in the Permiership).

Anyway, this issue has already been bugged so it's in the hands of SI now. Let's leave it, please.

Which Premiership club would sign him as a poucher though.

[Mr U Rosler]

I like how everyone saying that this player would score so many goals in a poor Croatian League (it is not that poor) are also totally missing that this player, a central defender has also scored 12 goals in 12 games in continental matches.

Pace and acceleration alone should not make him a goalscoring machine with pretty poor with poor stats off the ball, first touch, technique and very average for finishing.

I would post this in the bugs forum, a central defender should not be able to perform like this as a poucher.

This is actually alarming.

But at least it reinforces my thoughts on picking players for roles based on specific attributes rather than star ratings for each position.

[akkm]

It's in the Europa League, which is hardly a great standard either.

A player with those physicals and mentals could walk into a mid-Premiership side tbh. Its only his heading and marking letting him down. (Obviously his decisions and concentration aren't great, but there's plenty examples of that in the Permiership).

Anyway, this issue has already been bugged so it's in the hands of SI now. Let's leave it, please.

Will leave it Ackter but come on...not buying any of that logic bar it being a bug/ME exploit lol