How do you play Messi?

[tlm_77]

I'm having a go at being Barca manager and I'm doing well - which is hardly a surprise I suppose.

However, one thing I'm a little bemused about is how and where to play Messi so I can best re-create his real life style and goal scoring.

I currently play a standard 4-1-2-2-1 (DM, 2x CM, AML/R & a lone striker) and Messi is set as 'Trequartista'.

I did previously play Messi in the AMC position as Engache and had no striker but this seemed to limit Messi for goals.

I'm actually reasonably happy with where I'm at but very interested in how others are utilising Messi and Barca in general.

Cheers.

[RocheBag]

Enganche is a role with limited movement. Couldn't possibly be a worse role. I'd use him as a Treq or in the AMC slot as a Shadow Striker or AM-A

[Mercurio.3]

IRL Messi usually plays around 50/60 passes per game. As False Nine role it's hard to reproduce in ME.

[kazm]

I think most people use Messi as a TQ. He is so good at everything you should just have him do what he wants where he wants.

[yonko]

I'm having a go at being Barca manager and I'm doing well - which is hardly a surprise I suppose.

However, one thing I'm a little bemused about is how and where to play Messi so I can best re-create his real life style and goal scoring.

I currently play a standard 4-1-2-2-1 (DM, 2x CM, AML/R & a lone striker) and Messi is set as 'Trequartista'.

I did previously play Messi in the AMC position as Engache and had no striker but this seemed to limit Messi for goals.

I'm actually reasonably happy with where I'm at but very interested in how others are utilising Messi and Barca in general.

Cheers.

Don't worry, you are playing him the right way as Trequartista in STC position. Maybe the question is how have you set up the other players around him. How many games have you played and what are Messi's stats (goals + assists) so far?

[jujigatame]

When I played Barca in FM11 I played him as a simple AM/A behind Villa. He never achieved realistically amazing individual results, but I managed a 100% undefeated season with the team so I didn't really care.

Now that there's a F9 role, how could you not play him there?

[tlm_77]

Not played him as F9 as he's only 4 stars for that and 5 stars for TRQ.

He's doing well but my word this ME seems to show highlight after highlight of wonderful chances missed and for a player with 20 for finishing and 19 for composure...strange.

Others in the team are ok, Neymar has 12 goals in about 30 and 7 from Sanchez, 5 from Pedro.

I think I'm quite close in fairness to RL, curious to see how others are getting on with him and Barca in general.

[RTHerringbone]

Not played him as F9 as he's only 4 stars for that and 5 stars for TRQ.

He's doing well but my word this ME seems to show highlight after highlight of wonderful chances missed and for a player with 20 for finishing and 19 for composure...strange.

Finishing looks a bit duff at the moment, don't be disheartened.

Also don't pay too much attention to the star ratings for Roles, I don't think they are the greatest measure of a players suitability for a Role.

[tomtuck01]

Defensive Forward, (if the role is still there in FM14), tailored to suit how you want him to play; Run With Ball More Often, Short Passing, etc.

[jujigatame]

Not played him as F9 as he's only 4 stars for that and 5 stars for TRQ.

He's doing well but my word this ME seems to show highlight after highlight of wonderful chances missed and for a player with 20 for finishing and 19 for composure...strange.

Others in the team are ok, Neymar has 12 goals in about 30 and 7 from Sanchez, 5 from Pedro.

I think I'm quite close in fairness to RL, curious to see how others are getting on with him and Barca in general.

It's odd that F9 is only available in a support duty considering how Messi defined the role and he's certainly the club's primary goalscorer. I can see the way the roles are defined in-game it does make more sense to play him as a TQ as he'll be more direct.

I think depending on overall tactic it makes sense to have him be a F9 tweaked to be more direct, or a TQ tweaked to take on some defensive duties.

[Mercurio.3]

It's odd that F9 is only available in a support duty considering how Messi defined the role and he's certainly the club's primary goalscorer. I can see the way the roles are defined in-game it does make more sense to play him as a TQ as he'll be more direct.

I think depending on overall tactic it makes sense to have him be a F9 tweaked to be more direct, or a TQ tweaked to take on some defensive duties.

IRL Messi drops to midfielder all the time. That's hard to do in ME.

[Lord Dakier]

I set him to DLP-S and he done the rest. There's no special tactic required for playing as the best team in the world.

[11v11]

messi's rise to stardom came from being a inside forward, opening himself up at the right wing and forcefully penetrate the defensive with speed and skill to get a shot at goal or assist. barca has moved him center because they cant quite get a striker that is as effective as messi.

[Cleon]

IRL Messi drops to midfielder all the time. That's hard to do in ME.

If we are basing it on this year then Messi actually starts deeper and goes forward now rather than starting high and dropping deep. All the heat maps and stats back this up over at www.squawka.com in case anyone doesn't believe me.

[llama3]

If we are basing it on this year then Messi actually starts deeper and goes forward now rather than starting high and dropping deep. All the heat maps and stats back this up over at www.squawka.com in case anyone doesn't believe me.

Always thought Barca were a better team when they played this way (like they used to). Last year they seemed to have forgot what made them good. Things like Iniesta wide left, Messi central and high, the lack of incision to their passing was a bit of a let down for players of that talent.

[Mercurio.3]

messi's rise to stardom came from being a inside forward, opening himself up at the right wing and forcefully penetrate the defensive with speed and skill to get a shot at goal or assist. barca has moved him center because they cant quite get a striker that is as effective as messi.

No. Guardiola explained he moved Messi to a center position because he ever wants to dominate the middle and thinks "good players" should play there in order to be more involved in the game. That was the reason.

[video=youtube;qnrxptKMY-k]

[llama3]

Messi forced Guardiola's hand over it by throwing a tantrum. Told Pep "i can see i am not important to the team" in response to ibrahimovic playing there. Ibra got the boot, Messi got his way. Spoilt brat really.

[tomtuck01]

Messi forced Guardiola's hand over it by throwing a tantrum. Told Pep "i can see i am not important to the team" in response to ibrahimovic playing there. Ibra got the boot, Messi got his way. Spoilt brat really.

This was my understanding of the situation.

However, even though Guardiola caved, it is understandable in all honesty, if not a little weak.

[RTHerringbone]

This was my understanding of the situation.

However, even though Guardiola caved, it is understandable in all honesty, if not a little weak.

This stuff has been confirmed in Guillem Balague's Guardiola biography and also Graham Hunter's 'Barca'.

Messi looks like a friendly little chap, but he is headstrong and determined. Above all, he is such a good player that Barcelona bend over backwards to keep him happy.

He was instrumental in the departures of Ibrahimovic and Eto'o.

[RiverReveal666]

From what I can remember in FM 13 the Treq role had closing down at 0. If the player is given the role of Treq, in this case Messi, has a high work rate then will he close down players a lot more than if someone like Berbatov plays as a treq?

[tlm_77]

Just started trying Messi in the AMC position but as a SS.

Early signs are promising both for team possession and Messi scoring and creating.

[miguelalves]

I tried Messi as a Treq in fm14 and didn't like it. I still think CF is best role.

[llama3]

I tried Messi as a Treq in fm14 and didn't like it. I still think CF is best role.

I agree, i never use Treq's anymore, and will never use an Enganche - I cannot stand the lack of defensive work. I think a CF(S) in attack seems to suit him best.

[yonko]

Messi forced Guardiola's hand over it by throwing a tantrum. Told Pep "i can see i am not important to the team" in response to ibrahimovic playing there. Ibra got the boot, Messi got his way. Spoilt brat really.

Not true. When Ibra was playing central, Messi was also playing there, behind him. Barca were using a weird formation at that time, also due to Iniesta's absence.

This stuff has been confirmed in Guillem Balague's Guardiola biography and also Graham Hunter's 'Barca'.

Messi looks like a friendly little chap, but he is headstrong and determined. Above all, he is such a good player that Barcelona bend over backwards to keep him happy.

He was instrumental in the departures of Ibrahimovic and Eto'o.

Pep had problems with Eto'o from the beginning. He wanted him out along with Ronaldinho and Deco, because he saw him as part of that old regime. Messi and Eto'o didn't have a problem with each other and the latter didn't have problem playing on the wings. Ibra also didn't have problems with Messi or anyone else on the team, only with Pep. Ibra's problems started because he stopped scoring after the Xmas break.

To this day, I still feel like Guardiola's biggest mistake was letting go of Eto'o.

[yonko]

If we are basing it on this year then Messi actually starts deeper and goes forward now rather than starting high and dropping deep. All the heat maps and stats back this up over at www.squawka.com in case anyone doesn't believe me.

I disagree. Messi still plays as forward dropping deep, but not as extreme as before. In some games, he actually switches to play on the right wing. For example, in the last match vs Milan.

Starting deeper and going forward, as you describe, is the way he plays for Argentina.

[Cleon]

I've watched every Barca game in the last 10 years and especially since Messi plays in the first team. I still disagree. The heat maps show him playing higher up because he drops less, not because he starts deeper and moves forward. Here is an article from zonalmarking analyzing the changes this season:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/10/11/new-managers-martino-at-barcelona/

Scroll down and you will see a special section on Messi role.

So far, it seems that against better sides Messi plays deeper and contributes more to build-up play – his third goal against Valencia was a great example of his dual role, providing the extra number in midfield before scampering forward to score. In other matches, however, he seems happy to let others dominate the midfield, and has concentrated on finishing moves.

This quote is taken from the article you linked though. I never said he didn't still go higher but in majority of games this year he's started very deep.

For better articles on Messi you want to read Squawka and Chalkonboots because they have them for every game and not just one. So you can really see how he plays in every game and what his role actually was.

We'll have to agree to disagree though as we both believe different things

[tlm_77]

All of which is very, very interesting and just heaps more Q's in my mind as to how best to play Messi in FM14.

[yonko]

This quote is taken from the article you linked though. I never said he didn't still go higher but in majority of games this year he's started very deep.

For better articles on Messi you want to read Squawka and Chalkonboots because they have them for every game and not just one. So you can really see how he plays in every game and what his role actually was.

We'll have to agree to disagree though as we both believe different things

Nothing in the quote you've taken from the article I linked supports your theory though. I don't need to read many articles to know how Messi plays. I see him every game and I know football enough to understand how he plays.

[Cleon]

Nothing in the quote you've taken from the article I linked supports your theory though. I don't need to read many articles to know how Messi plays. I see him every game and I know football enough to understand how he plays.

I guess you missed;

of his dual role, providing the extra number in midfield before scampering forward to score

And its not a theory, I can show you hundreds of clips, videos, highlights etc of this happening from games this year. If you've watched all Barca's games I'm really shocked you've not seen it happen though :confused:

It's okay though, I've seen enough of him to know this is happening so we'll agree to disagree. I think you might be shocked with one of the interviews I've done with the Barca B manager (Eusebio Sacristán Mena ) though when I post it up if you refuse to believe he doesn't start deep and goes higher.

[legaldinho]

(Never take on) cleon

[bigdirtyjames]

This stuff has been confirmed in Guillem Balague's Guardiola biography and also Graham Hunter's 'Barca'.and Eto'o.

Really? What pages mate, because I've read both of them and don't recall that happening. Eto'o was forever being warned about his behaviour, and Ibrahimovic was creating disharmony within the group by constantly bitching about and confronting other players, coaches and the manager.

I read absolutely nothing about Messi having tantrums.

[bigdirtyjames]

Not true. When Ibra was playing central, Messi was also playing there, behind him. Barca were using a weird formation at that time, also due to Iniesta's absence.

Pep had problems with Eto'o from the beginning. He wanted him out along with Ronaldinho and Deco, because he saw him as part of that old regime. Messi and Eto'o didn't have a problem with each other and the latter didn't have problem playing on the wings. Ibra also didn't have problems with Messi or anyone else on the team, only with Pep. Ibra's problems started because he stopped scoring after the Xmas break.

To this day, I still feel like Guardiola's biggest mistake was letting go of Eto'o.

Exactly how I read it.

[Mercurio.3]

I guess you missed;

And its not a theory, I can show you hundreds of clips, videos, highlights etc of this happening from games this year. If you've watched all Barca's games I'm really shocked you've not seen it happen though :confused:

It's okay though, I've seen enough of him to know this is happening so we'll agree to disagree. I think you might be shocked with one of the interviews I've done with the Barca B manager (Eusebio Sacristán Mena ) though when I post it up if you refuse to believe he doesn't start deep and goes higher.

I agree yonko.

Messi does this:

Not this:

[Cleon]

Yups he clearly does;

Clearly Messi isn't starting deep and moving forward.......

Look at his movement in the Milan game http://champions-league.squawka.com/milan-vs-barcelona/22-10-2013/champions-league/matches he starts deep on the right and drift inwards towards the centre. A few times when he was swapping position he started higher up. But majority of the game he started deep and was controlling the AMC space rather than being advanced.

Edit - Even this video shows it happening. It also shows goals when he's advanced too but you can clearly see the goals when he starts deeps and goes forward too, which you said didn't happen;

[video=youtube;fwBZcXO56WQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBZcXO56WQ

[RTHerringbone]

Really? What pages mate, because I've read both of them and don't recall that happening. Eto'o was forever being warned about his behaviour, and Ibrahimovic was creating disharmony within the group by constantly bitching about and confronting other players, coaches and the manager.

I read absolutely nothing about Messi having tantrums.

I haven't got a photographic memory

It's in there, and the general tone of both books implied that Messi casts a Hell of a shadow over the decision making at Barcelona.

[Cleon]

I haven't got a photographic memory

It's in there, and the general tone of both books implied that Messi casts a Hell of a shadow over the decision making at Barcelona.

Ibra speaks about it himself saying things were fine at Barca until Messi learnt he had a voice. I think this is up on the Guardian somewhere.

[tomtuck01]

Nothing in the quote you've taken from the article I linked supports your theory though. I don't need to read many articles to know how Messi plays. I see him every game and I know football enough to understand how he plays.

Could be worse, you could have brought out the old "I go to every game so I know better" line.

[HakanMild]

I'm playing a Barca save too and am playing Messi as a false 9 in a 4-1-2-2-1. He has scored 9 in 7 matches.

[yonko]

I guess you missed;

And its not a theory, I can show you hundreds of clips, videos, highlights etc of this happening from games this year. If you've watched all Barca's games I'm really shocked you've not seen it happen though :confused:

It's okay though, I've seen enough of him to know this is happening so we'll agree to disagree. I think you might be shocked with one of the interviews I've done with the Barca B manager (Eusebio Sacristán Mena ) though when I post it up if you refuse to believe he doesn't start deep and goes higher.

I'm not denying that Messi plays a dual role. But he doesn't start deep. He always drops deep and then surges forward. An example of someone who starts deep and then surges forward is Cesc when he plays as midfielder. In years past, Paul Scholes was someone who started deep and surged forward. Lampard was another example. Steven Gerrard is yet another example.

In other words, you saying that Messi starts deep is like saying he plays as a midfielder, which not true at Barca. For Argentina is another story. There he plays as AM.

[Mercurio.3]

Yups he clearly does;

Clearly Messi isn't starting deep and moving forward.......

Look at his movement in the Milan game http://champions-league.squawka.com/milan-vs-barcelona/22-10-2013/champions-league/matches he starts deep on the right and drift inwards towards the centre. A few times when he was swapping position he started higher up. But majority of the game he started deep and was controlling the AMC space rather than being advanced.

Edit - Even this video shows it happening. It also shows goals when he's advanced too but you can clearly see the goals when he starts deeps and goes forward too, which you said didn't happen;

[video=youtube;fwBZcXO56WQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBZcXO56WQ

Starts forward -> Comes deep -> Gets forward

Not just starts deep and gets forward. You can see here Guardiola explaning Messi's position, as a forward who drops to create numerical superiority in the midfield and confusing opponent center backs (who are marking to him, then he leaves position and creates free space). That's why he is a "false" striker.

[video=youtube;qnrxptKMY-k]

[Cleon]

Not just starts deep and gets forward. You can see here Guardiola explaning Messi's position, as a forward who drops to create numerical superiority in the midfield and confusing opponent center backs (who are marking to him, then he leaves position and creates free space). That's why he is a "false" striker.

You might want to read my posts rather than picking them. I clearly stated his role has changed slightly since Pep left and I also stated he still goes forward and drops deep but compared to how Pep used to play him, he starts deep and pushes forward a lot more than he used to under Pep.

But he doesn't start deep. He always drops deep and then surges forward.

He doesn't always and I've show examples. You can even watch the build up on youtube or something to some of the play he's done this season and you can clearly see when he's started deep and pushes forward. This happens because Barca have been playing quite a few teams who play with a high line. So this dictates Messi starts deep and pushes forward rather than starts high and drops deep because it means he isn't hassled as much as he would be if he started high and dropped deep.

In other words, you saying that Messi starts deep is like saying he plays as a midfielder, which not true at Barca. For Argentina is another story. There he plays as AM.

I never said anything like that at all, stop being silly. I've shown you examples and you still fail to accept it. If someone refuses to believe or doesn't understand what they are watching when seeing Barca play then I'm fighting a lost cause. I'm really surprised that you watch all the games and don't see this happening. I can go and watch any game now of theirs that he played and you can see this happening at times during the match. So not really sure what you've been watching.

Anyways I'll stop this discussion now as we are just going round in circles which is pointless.

[Sarmatian]

Yups he clearly does;

The second screenshot doesn't strengthen your position as Barcelona are actually defending and Messi is the most advanced of all Barca players.

[Cleon]

The second screenshot doesn't strengthen your position as Barcelona are actually defending and Messi is the most advanced of all Barca players.

No he's not there is actually a Barca player (maybe fabregas) higher up the pitch and doesn't show on the screen. And regardless of is its defensive or not it still shows Messi is deep even if he was the highest Barca player and if he was to go forward when winning possession he would be doing it from deep and not by starting high up the pitch and dropping back into the AMC position like claimed further up the thread.

[yonko]

You might want to read my posts rather than picking them. I clearly stated his role has changed slightly since Pep left and I also stated he still goes forward and drops deep but compared to how Pep used to play him, he starts deep and pushes forward a lot more than he used to under Pep.

He doesn't always and I've show examples. You can even watch the build up on youtube or something to some of the play he's done this season and you can clearly see when he's started deep and pushes forward. This happens because Barca have been playing quite a few teams who play with a high line. So this dictates Messi starts deep and pushes forward rather than starts high and drops deep because it means he isn't hassled as much as he would be if he started high and dropped deep.

I never said anything like that at all, stop being silly. I've shown you examples and you still fail to accept it. If someone refuses to believe or doesn't understand what they are watching when seeing Barca play then I'm fighting a lost cause. I'm really surprised that you watch all the games and don't see this happening. I can go and watch any game now of theirs that he played and you can see this happening at times during the match. So not really sure what you've been watching.

Anyways I'll stop this discussion now as we are just going round in circles which is pointless.

You haven't shown or proven anything! You don't have to tell me what I should watch or read on Messi. I have watched every game he has played since 2005, for both Barca and Argentina (I even still have the 2009 and 2011 CL finals recorded on my DVR). And I know football. Messi is a forward who drops deep and then surges forward. He doesn't start deep for Barca. Not under Pep, not under Vilanova and not now under Tata Martino. The difference this year is that he doesn't drop as deep or as frequently as before, but it is very subtle difference. The other difference is that he plays from the right wing as evidenced vs Milan and Real Madrid.

I know that you haven't said that Messi plays as a midfielder, per se. But when you say that he "starts deep and then surges forward" that is what midfielders usually do. And I gave you examples of such midfielders - Fabregas, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes. Those are players who surge or at least used to surge forward from deep position...from midfield. There is a clear contrast.

Messi is a forward. He is 99% of the time the furthest Barca player when the team is defending. Therefore, he cannot start from deep position, but rather he drops into deep positions. Get it? So I think you are the one who is being "silly" here.

[yonko]

No he's not there is actually a Barca player (maybe fabregas) higher up the pitch and doesn't show on the screen. And regardless of is its defensive or not it still shows Messi is deep even if he was the highest Barca player and if he was to go forward when winning possession he would be doing it from deep and not by starting high up the pitch and dropping back into the AMC position like claimed further up the thread.

Jesus Christ!!! Yeah, Messi is deep.....so is the whole Barca team....because they are defending! Is not that hasn't happened before this season under previous managers.... Silly Cleon can't accept when he is wrong.......LOL

[Cleon]

Jesus Christ!!! Yeah, Messi is deep.....so is the whole Barca team....because they are defending! Is not that hasn't happened before this season under previous managers.... Silly Cleon can't accept when he is wrong.......LOL

I'm not wrong. When I have the time I'll do a little video for you of it happening to show you because its clear you don't know what you are watching when seeing Barca play. It doesn't matter how many games you watch it doesn't mean you know what you are watching.

I love how you ignored the video where it showed you it happening though and the first screen. Selective seeing is the best.....

Martino quote

"We spoke to him at the start of the season and I commented that it was good to be able to use him in different places as we think he can unbalance things more from there. There are times when we used him as a striker, or in a deep role, but we want to have him at his best so we can use him where he is needed," said Martino.

See even the manager says he's been playing him in a deeper role at times. But I guess he's wrong too....

[tomtuck01]

"I watch all the games, I know best". (Yes I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what you're saying here).

On that basis, I know how every single Manchester United player from the last 18 years plays, and can't be wrong.

[tlm_77]

Not being funny but I didn't start this thread so people could have a bit of a heated debate about how Messi plays in real life, this thread was meant to be a thread about discussing how best to play Messi in FM.

Obviously there has to be conversation about real life Messi / Barca but ideally, the topic should be about FM Messi / Barca and where and how best to play him.

So, with this in mind, has anyone found a winning formula for Messi in FM where's he's scoring freely and assisting etc?

Cheers.

[Cleon]

Not being funny but I didn't start this thread so people could have a bit of a heated debate about how Messi plays in real life, this thread was meant to be a thread about discussing how best to play Messi in FM.

Obviously there has to be conversation about real life Messi / Barca but ideally, the topic should be about FM Messi / Barca and where and how best to play him.

So, with this in mind, has anyone found a winning formula for Messi in FM where's he's scoring freely and assisting etc?

Cheers.

There is no winning formula and everything works. It all depends on how you set up the players around him. If you want him to score goals then you need to provide him with the ammunition to do this. If you want him to get assists then you need players playing off him and going past him so he can feed them the ball so they can score. If you want both these then you need to mix it up a bit.

Decide how you want him to play then build the players around him so he is able to play that way. The thing with Messi is he can play just about any of the striker or attacking midfielder roles. So you'll need to make the choice and then build the side with this in mind.

[tlm_77]

Cheers Cleon.

I'm trying all sorts of different things. Seems playing him in the lone striker position works best for me atm.

I like the false 9 role, seems to get the best out of him.