Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
wwfan

How to Play FM: A Twelve Step Guide

Recommended Posts

wwfan   
Wwfan, I am looking to play a 4-3-1-2 & 4-1-3-2 formation and I want to make myself hard to beat, like I want to be quite a defensive manager and would rather win games 1-0 than win games 3-2,4-3. I was thinking about starting with rigid - standard, would this be a good starting point for this? Not the best with tactics so any advice apprieciated.

If you want to be defensive, I'd have thought Counter or Defensive were better starting strategies. Don't make the mistake of thinking rigid suits more defensive systems and fluid more attacking. It's all about whether you want to rely on specialist players pulling strings or not.

There's absolutely no correlation between fluidity and mentality, other than, as THOG points out, in terms of a sense of style. It might seem non-intuitive, but a very fluid defensive strategy might be slightly more defensive than a very rigid defensive mentality. A very fluid attacking mentality might also be slightly more attacking than a very rigid attacking strategy. If you try a very fluid defensive mentality and feel the team gets pinned back too much, a more aggressive mentality might help, but a more rigid fluidity with a few specialist roles might be closer to what you are looking for. It's up to you to find the pattern of play you are most happy with.

I realise this is quite complex, which is why I don't go over in it depth in my OP. Indeed, I wasn't really sure how to write it up. THOG's put it nicely though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wwfan   
would be nice to have a clue about what's right and what's wrong though, just to get things started... the fluid vs rigid discussion is very interesting and gives me a lot to think about.. but in the end I'm like :confused: just like my AMC ...

There are no right and wrong answers. There's your answer. Finding it is half the fun of FM. The guide is only a starting position to kick start your creativity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lennon67   
If you want to be defensive, I'd have thought Counter or Defensive were better starting strategies. Don't make the mistake of thinking rigid suits more defensive systems and fluid more attacking. It's all about whether you want to rely on specialist players pulling strings or not.

There's absolutely no correlation between fluidity and mentality, other than, as THOG points out, in terms of a sense of style. It might seem non-intuitive, but a very fluid defensive strategy might be slightly more defensive than a very rigid defensive mentality. A very fluid attacking mentality might also be slightly more attacking than a very rigid attacking strategy. If you try a very fluid defensive mentality and feel the team gets pinned back too much, a more aggressive mentality might help, but a more rigid fluidity with a few specialist roles might be closer to what you are looking for. It's up to you to find the pattern of play you are most happy with.

I realise this is quite complex, which is why I don't go over in it depth in my OP. Indeed, I wasn't really sure how to write it up. THOG's put it nicely though.

Thanks for the reply wwfan, it's appreciated. This has made me understand it a little better now, I think I want to go down the route with a more rigid fluidity with a few specialist roles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are no right and wrong answers. There's your answer. Finding it is half the fun of FM. The guide is only a starting position to kick start your creativity.

my own Creativity attribute is excellent, the Decisions one could use some improvement though!

my idea would be a control 4-2-3-1 with good ball possession, creative/dribbler AM's (IF-AP-W) and defensive minded CM's (DLP-CM). Can't seem to make it work properly on both defence and offence. Can I ask you how would you set this up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading this it looks as though I finally have a tactic working for my team. Granted I'm only 3 games in to the season but my team is playing exactly how I want them to. Thanks for the help wwfan and THOG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any way AT ALL to play 4231 in this game without being [beaten thoroughly] ,at home, every time, by every other side regardless of how useless they are?!?

Rigid, Fluid, Balanced, Counter, Control. Inside forwards or wingers, DLP or Regista...no matter what........... I'm about go give up.

*frustrated*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleon   

Cut the swearing out please and don't post in caps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wwfan   
Is there any way AT ALL to play 4231 in this game without being [beaten thoroughly] ,at home, every time, by every other side regardless of how useless they are?!?

Rigid, Fluid, Balanced, Counter, Control. Inside forwards or wingers, DLP or Regista...no matter what........... I'm about go give up.

*frustrated*

my own Creativity attribute is excellent, the Decisions one could use some improvement though!

my idea would be a control 4-2-3-1 with good ball possession, creative/dribbler AM's (IF-AP-W) and defensive minded CM's (DLP-CM). Can't seem to make it work properly on both defence and offence. Can I ask you how would you set this up?

I can't get into detailed discussions about a certain formation shape in this thread. That's not what it is for. If you want help with a 4-2-3-1, I suggest starting your own thread or reading through one already discussing the merits of your desired formation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can't get into detailed discussions about a certain formation shape in this thread. That's not what it is for. If you want help with a 4-2-3-1, I suggest starting your own thread or reading through one already discussing the merits of your desired formation.

no prob mate, thanks for all the help.

if you find some time you can visit the thread I had started here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368442-Building-a-tactic-around-a-star-No.10 and provide more advice :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
janbak   

Hi wwfan,

first of all thank you for your very useful guide.

I’d like to speak about yr first point: philosophies Vs roles

My understanding is that more specialist roles are more suitable for rigid philosophies and more generic role are more suitable for fluid philosophies.

It seems that the reason of that is that specialist roles include a set of predefined individual instructions; this is the reason why they are more suitable for a rigid philosophy in which each player stick to its own instructions. On the other side more generic roles are more suitable for fluid strategy because they do not include a set of predefined individual instructions meaning that they tend to adapt their play the team needs.

If I’m right a consequence of that is that in a fluid philosophy we have prefer team instructions instead of individual ones and in rigid philosophy we have to prefer individual instructions instead of team ones.

If what I’ve said before is right my main disappointment is about the preset of individual instructions included in a specialist role because without the old sliders I’ve no way to understand which are these mysterious instructions included in this kind of roles, for sure I think that they are more than those disabled in the individual instructions panel when I select this kind of roles. The result is that specialist roles are a sort of “black box” that contains a lot of things we do not know and we cannot read

Finally my question is: is there a way to know which are the presets of individual instructions included in a specialist role?

I hope I’ve been clear otherwise feel free to ask for any clarification you may need ;)

Thank you very much

P.S. generally speaking it seems clear that instructions (both team and individual) modify a set of parameters that in old FM versions were represented by sliders and now are closed in a big mysterious “black box” we cannot open … is there a way to get the key?

P.P.S. It should be beautiful if it was possibile to create new roles from scratch or to modify existing ones, in this way each of us would be able to create its own customized tactic, different from all the others ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ADoubleK   
If what I’ve said before is right my main disappointment is about the preset of individual instructions included in a specialist role because without the old sliders I’ve no way to understand which are these mysterious instructions included in this kind of roles, for sure I think that they are more than those disabled in the individual instructions panel when I select this kind of roles. The result is that specialist roles are a sort of “black box” that contains a lot of things we do not know and we cannot read

I thought that the individual instructions that you set for each player in the role has presets that are available. That is, the ones that are not compatible with the role of the player are greyed out whilst the others are available for you to choose from? Unless you're talking about something else and I'm just confused? :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
collyer   

Hull_v_Arsenal_Away_Team_Selection_Overview.jpg

Can anyone help with my primary tactic please?

I know that it isn't perfect. What I want is to play a short passing possession game. The aim is to have the BWM gain back the ball when the opposition have the ball and for the DLP to sit deep and spray it out to the more attacking players.

At the moment, most players I put in the poacher role are mostly inneffective - Benteke, Giroud, Fierro..

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hull_v_Arsenal_Away_Team_Selection_Overview.jpg

Can anyone help with my primary tactic please?

I know that it isn't perfect. What I want is to play a short passing possession game. The aim is to have the BWM gain back the ball when the opposition have the ball and for the DLP to sit deep and spray it out to the more attacking players.

At the moment, most players I put in the poacher role are mostly inneffective - Benteke, Giroud, Fierro..

Thank you.

Poacher in a lone forward role is going to have to get some absolutely incredible service, he is not going to contribute at all to making his own chances (or your teamates for that matter). You are a bit obvious down the wings. Wingers attack, fullbacks support on both sides, the AI cotton on to this very quickly and defend it very well. You need to stagger those roles, keep the AI on it's toes so to speak. You have Giroud and Benteke, those two are beasts and would be good options as DLF (s) or DLF (a). The BWM wont hold the team shape, he goes rampaging around, this could pull you apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
llama3   

A few issues there:

  • Lone Poacher is very isolated
  • You have little variation in your attacks - both wings play identically - mix it up a bit maybe by having an Attack duty full back, and a Support duty Winger - causes more overlaps and combination play.
  • You look like you're very static in the centre, the AP(S), BWM(D) & DLP(S) will do very little in the way of forward runs between them.

I like the fact you've started basic though, and built up from there. Much easier to adapt it and perfect it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wazza   

Im playing with Stockport and its pre-season so I cannot talk to the players direct yet to comment on training performance or match performance as the options are greyed out. Ive played some low rep clubs scraping 2-1 wins and when I look at the game I am constantly outpassed and the oppostion seem to walk right through me. Even though I have played 9 friendlies and won the majority my morale is still low. I am also having an issue where my players are still not match fit even though I have rotated them for each game and I have 2 games to go till the season starts.

I set my pre season training as match preparation - tactics and have not moved it so they become familiar and have training on team cohesion as I brought in 4 or 5 players to add to the squad

I cannot understand why morale is low - when I have beaten teams even though alot lower than mine and why the team appears to be played off park by lower rep teams and also why match fitness is going up slowly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wwfan   

I wouldn't overly worry about pre-season. AI teams often just play for fitness so offer a totally different experience than competitive fixtures. It doesn't mean much to beat them.

11 pre-season friendlies with part-time training is a lot. Too many matches and not enough training time. That's probably why everything is happening slowly for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wazza   
I wouldn't overly worry about pre-season. AI teams often just play for fitness so offer a totally different experience than competitive fixtures. It doesn't mean much to beat them.

11 pre-season friendlies with part-time training is a lot. Too many matches and not enough training time. That's probably why everything is happening slowly for you.

It was actually 9 matches - I needed to do this as still my squad is not match fit which I always like each player to be for the first game - hence alot of matches. Also if my pre-season training has been set to tactics training to gain familiarity then surely if Im playing matches using these tactics this would help and speed up the process. Also the training set to team cohesion surely again playing more matches helps the players get famililar with each other

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dench57   
Is there any way AT ALL to play 4231 in this game without being [beaten thoroughly] ,at home, every time, by every other side regardless of how useless they are?!?

Rigid, Fluid, Balanced, Counter, Control. Inside forwards or wingers, DLP or Regista...no matter what........... I'm about go give up.

*frustrated*

Quite glad to hear it's not just me having trouble with 4-2-3-1. Used it to great effect in the last 5 editions of FM but I'm currently sitting in 15th with Liverpool after half a season despite having a squad that's strong enough for 4th on paper. Trying to read through forums because there's obviously something fundamentally wrong with my approach in FM14 compared to previous versions. After reading this thread it seems I can't just use "Standard Balanced" like I've always done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dench57   

Some excellent stuff in this thread. I've never paid much attention to micro-managing my teams formations and tactics, have usually just gone with a standard/balanced 4-2-3-1, however in FM2014 with this formation my side is severely underperforming so I'm trying to find the source of the problem.

4231 is a good example as it has 4 players in the attacking and striker strata. This means that, with a rigid or very rigid style (or a poorly implemented balanced style), such formations can be extremely disjointed and imbalanced.

Can I assume from this that with my 4-2-3-1 I'd be better off going Fluid rather than Balanced? I'm currently using inside forwards on the wings. My problem at the moment is scoring, I'm averaging 25-30 shots on goal a game but rarely score more than 1-2 goals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
collyer   
Poacher in a lone forward role is going to have to get some absolutely incredible service, he is not going to contribute at all to making his own chances (or your teamates for that matter). You are a bit obvious down the wings. Wingers attack, fullbacks support on both sides, the AI cotton on to this very quickly and defend it very well. You need to stagger those roles, keep the AI on it's toes so to speak. You have Giroud and Benteke, those two are beasts and would be good options as DLF (s) or DLF (a). The BWM wont hold the team shape, he goes rampaging around, this could pull you apart.
A few issues there:

  • Lone Poacher is very isolated
  • You have little variation in your attacks - both wings play identically - mix it up a bit maybe by having an Attack duty full back, and a Support duty Winger - causes more overlaps and combination play.
  • You look like you're very static in the centre, the AP(S), BWM(D) & DLP(S) will do very little in the way of forward runs between them.

I like the fact you've started basic though, and built up from there. Much easier to adapt it and perfect it.

Thanks :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
daleuk8   

am slightly confused now the sliders have been taken away from the game. Although I didn't use them.

If I can explain:

When selecting a strategy e.g. Attacking: How do you know which player instructions the players already have? Or do you have to select them?

For example: In the past when playing attacking it was suggested you needed three player roaming. With the old style TC it would it adjust thing accordingly. I noticed with the new style it doesn't do this.

Also how do you now adjust through balls now Pass to Feet has gone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
THOG   
Can I assume from this that with my 4-2-3-1 I'd be better off going Fluid rather than Balanced? I'm currently using inside forwards on the wings. My problem at the moment is scoring, I'm averaging 25-30 shots on goal a game but rarely score more than 1-2 goals.

I would say the most common mistake you'll see on these forums is a 4231 with about half of the team crowding into the middle of the attacking third, one overworked midfielder trying to control things from deep and two fullbacks sitting level with the defensive midfielder looking for through ball opportunities that are never going to come. The basic problem with using Rigid/Very Rigid with a 4231 is that you're telling your wide players to push up and neglect a lot of their defensive responsibilities (i.e., you're asking them to be wide forwards rather than wide midfielders), but the division of responsibility in a Rigid/Very Rigid system means they're still basically set up to play a slightly deeper, supporting function to the more advanced striker/attacking midfielder. In other words, you don't get the fluid interplay among the attacking four that you want in a 4231, and the fluidity structure basically sets up your team as a 4411 with glaring defensive gaps. This is particularly unhelpful if you're using inside forwards, as this means they'll be looking to cut into space that's already been occupied by the more aggressive central attacking players. A Balanced, Fluid and Very Fluid 4231 will still have those defensive weaknesses, but if set up well, you'll still get that close, cooperative interplay between the central attacking players and wide forwards.

So for a Rigid/Very Rigid 4231 where the wide players are just intended to play the ball forward to an ST and ACM in more of a 442-ish attacking transition, I recommend a 4411 or 42211. Inverted wingers who actually track back and accelerate into space from deep (as you would often see with Heyncke's Bayern) can be set up by assigning PIs to the wide midfielder. In general, for 4231s, I prefer Fluid/Balanced for more of a counterattacking approach where more defensive players play it forward to the attacking unit and Very Fluid for more of a methodical, possession-orientation approach where the whole team progresses in the attack as a single unit, but as wwfan would say, you shouldn't take anything as a strict rule. Once you feel comfortable with the "rules," you're encouraged to find novel ways to break them... that in itself is the history of tactics in a nutshell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
janbak   
I thought that the individual instructions that you set for each player in the role has presets that are available. That is, the ones that are not compatible with the role of the player are greyed out whilst the others are available for you to choose from? Unless you're talking about something else and I'm just confused? :rolleyes:

I’m sorry I haven’t been so clear; in fact I was talking about something different: I was talking about what is behind what you see in the game interface.

FM, like every game engine, doesn’t understand words, it understand numbers only! When you click something in the game interface you are actually giving instructions to the game engine to change a parameter from its starting value to new one, increasing or decreasing the starting one.

When I click doesn’t matter which individual or team instruction in the game interface I’d like to know which and how many parameters I’m changing, the amount of the change I’m making, the start value I’m modifying and how starting value are calculated (I think they are based on Philosophy, Strategy, Roles and Duties).

I’d simply like to understand how the FM TE translates words into numbers.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Inverted wingers who actually track back and accelerate into space from deep (as you would often see with Heyncke's Bayern) can be set up by assigning PIs to the wide midfielder. In general, for 4231s, I prefer Fluid/Balanced for more of a counterattacking approach where more defensive players play it forward to the attacking unit and Very Fluid for more of a methodical, possession-orientation approach where the whole team progresses in the attack as a single unit, but as wwfan would say, you shouldn't take anything as a strict rule. Once you feel comfortable with the "rules," you're encouraged to find novel ways to break them... that in itself is the history of tactics in a nutshell.

Now there's an idea for getting an inside forward to track back, one that makes you think "How the hell didn't I think of that myself" :D I'll definitely try that one out.

About the second part, I've always been a fan of Fluid myself, but I'm unsure whether to go with Rigid or Fluid when trying to emulate the high pressing style of Dortmund or Barcelona from a few years back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
arcadius   
Now there's an idea for getting an inside forward to track back, one that makes you think "How the hell didn't I think of that myself" :D I'll definitely try that one out.

About the second part, I've always been a fan of Fluid myself, but I'm unsure whether to go with Rigid or Fluid when trying to emulate the high pressing style of Dortmund or Barcelona from a few years back

If You want to play like BVB or Barca there is already a topic about Borussia's tactic, very useful: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/367741-Replicating-Dortmund-s-gegenpressing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'm not seeing many through balls like in Football Manager 2013, so I was wondering is it because of my instructions or have they been toned down?

Anyway what passing setting do I choose If I want for exaample my Deep Lying Forward (Support) to play through balls to my Advanced Forward given that they make the partnership in my attack? Do I choose More Direct Passing, Shorter Passing or something else? At the moment it's set to More Direct Passing, but I'm not getting the desired effect like I did in Football Manager 2013.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WWfan

Thanks for the effort you put in this thread, I believe it helps a lot of people (including me) setting up their tactic and defining their style.

However, I'm not convinced by your arguments about the number of specialists in each phylosophy. I'll try and explain, but please forgive my lack of knowledge of the English language. In FM 13, and I guess it hasn't changed a lot in FM 14, the mentality and creative freedom were influenced by phylosophy, strategy and formation. The more fluid phylosophies tended to give players more or less the same mentality and creative freedom where the more rigid spaced these out. So in fluid styles it would be more difficult for a manager to influence individual behaviour but easier to define the strategy of a team as a whole. So any specialist role given to a player in fluid styles will have less impact than the same role in a rigid style (where individual behaviour can be easily managed), but it does not restrict you to a certain number of them: they just matter less. Do I make any sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
'm not seeing many through balls like in Football Manager 2013, so I was wondering is it because of my instructions or have they been toned down?

Anyway what passing setting do I choose If I want for exaample my Deep Lying Forward (Support) to play through balls to my Advanced Forward given that they make the partnership in my attack? Do I choose More Direct Passing, Shorter Passing or something else? At the moment it's set to More Direct Passing, but I'm not getting the desired effect like I did in Football Manager 2013.

Come on wwfan. :D :D

it's Rooney as DLF (s) and RVP I'm talking about. Every time Rooney received the ball in his position he either return it back or he sprays it out wide, I'm yet to see him turning and playing ut through to an on rununng RVP. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wwfan   
I’m sorry I haven’t been so clear; in fact I was talking about something different: I was talking about what is behind what you see in the game interface.

FM, like every game engine, doesn’t understand words, it understand numbers only! When you click something in the game interface you are actually giving instructions to the game engine to change a parameter from its starting value to new one, increasing or decreasing the starting one.

When I click doesn’t matter which individual or team instruction in the game interface I’d like to know which and how many parameters I’m changing, the amount of the change I’m making, the start value I’m modifying and how starting value are calculated (I think they are based on Philosophy, Strategy, Roles and Duties).

I’d simply like to understand how the FM TE translates words into numbers.

Cheers

The whole point of this thread is explaining and supporting the move away from sliders and numbers to try and help people think about football concepts. Making all the numbers explicit again would somewhat undermine that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wwfan   
WWfan

Thanks for the effort you put in this thread, I believe it helps a lot of people (including me) setting up their tactic and defining their style.

However, I'm not convinced by your arguments about the number of specialists in each phylosophy. I'll try and explain, but please forgive my lack of knowledge of the English language. In FM 13, and I guess it hasn't changed a lot in FM 14, the mentality and creative freedom were influenced by phylosophy, strategy and formation. The more fluid phylosophies tended to give players more or less the same mentality and creative freedom where the more rigid spaced these out. So in fluid styles it would be more difficult for a manager to influence individual behaviour but easier to define the strategy of a team as a whole. So any specialist role given to a player in fluid styles will have less impact than the same role in a rigid style (where individual behaviour can be easily managed), but it does not restrict you to a certain number of them: they just matter less. Do I make any sense?

That's a perfectly valid interpretation. If it works for you, then don't feel you have to adjust because of this guide. It is a guide designed to get you thinking, not a list of hard and fast rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wwfan   
Come on wwfan. :D :D

it's Rooney as DLF (s) and RVP I'm talking about. Every time Rooney received the ball in his position he either return it back or he sprays it out wide, I'm yet to see him turning and playing ut through to an on rununng RVP. :)

Pass into Space and More Risky Passing would be the way to go. Maybe a lower mentality system might help as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pass into Space and More Risky Passing would be the way to go. Maybe a lower mentality system might help as well.

But, I can't choose for Rooney the option of More Risky Passes. :S

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's a perfectly valid interpretation. If it works for you, then don't feel you have to adjust because of this guide. It is a guide designed to get you thinking, not a list of hard and fast rules.

I do like to know more about your reasons when choosing this though. My current strategy works for me, but I would like to know more about the inner working of the ME. Since your knowledge of the ME far exceeds mine, it realy would mean a lot to me if you would be so kind to tell me what you reasoning about this makes you suggest those limitations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do like to know more about your reasons when choosing this though. My current strategy works for me, but I would like to know more about the inner working of the ME. Since your knowledge of the ME far exceeds mine, it realy would mean a lot to me if you would be so kind to tell me what you reasoning about this makes you suggest those limitations.

Fluidity is about a team moving as one, a cohesive whole, we attack together we defend together, adding specialists to fluid teams takes from the whole, now you have a player who is told to play a specific way individually and abandon "the team moves as one" philosophy. Read this article on Arrigo Sacchi, who is a staunch defender of fluid teams, the team to him is an entity all onto itself without individual parts: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/nov/22/arrigo-sacchi-milan-italy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dench57   
A Balanced, Fluid and Very Fluid 4231 will still have those defensive weaknesses, but if set up well, you'll still get that close, cooperative interplay between the central attacking players and wide forwards.

Thanks a lot for the detailed response. With FM I've always operated with a policy of the simpler the better until this version, after finding threads like these I'm seeing the challenge and satisfaction with learning your own unique tactic/approach. I switched to a Fluid 4-2-3-1 and it was considerably better, however it was still underwhelming considering the players at my disposal. I've decided to switch to a Fluid/Control 4-4-2, dropped my Inside Forwards for good old fashioned Wingers and coupled with my attacking Wingbacks I'm now mauling teams.

The main reason I switched to this 4-4-2 was because some potentially world class Wingers and a Target Man to go with my Advanced Forward became available and they were too cheap to resist. At a glance it does seem that Wingers and attacking CWBs are the way to go this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dench57   

And also in the interest of keeping things simple, I've been using what I assume to be common sense and setting Match Training to "Attacking Movement" if my next opponent is weaker than me and "Defensive Positioning" if the opponent is stronger. What about you guys?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for these tips. Very interesting. And thanks also for this forum. We can read it for hours and thinking about our tactics and teams.

I don't know if it is the right place to ask my question, so if not please indicate me where.

My question is related to individual player instructions. I was wondering if individual player instructions was redundant with PPM's. For example do I need to set "Play shorter" to a player that already has this PPM?

(sorry for this bad english, I'm french)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  1. The in-game descriptions needs a lot more clarification
    For instance, let's take Barcelona's style of play (Pep Team):
    wwfan wrote a thread (in 2011) about his interpretation of Barça that argued Counter was the most natural strategy for them and that they were far more rigid than fluid (in FM Language).
    Now, in this guide he makes the distinction/difference between specialist & generic roles: in short, the more specialist roles, the more rigid the tactic.
    So, in order to replicate Barcelona's style of play in FM accordting to wwfan, the best choice seems to be a counter/rigid strategy?
    Hmm, can we conclude that the most natural choice for Borussia Dortmund is a Control/Fluid strategy in FM Language?
    This seems to be in contradiction with the in-game descriptions.
    Logically, after reading the in-game descriptions, my first choice for Barça is Control & (Very) Fluid:
    • SI's description of the Control mentality is the one which matches more with Barça's Possession Football.
    • As Barça is a team were the collective is more important then individuals, the fluidity should be Fluid or even Very Fluid.

To tell you the truth, even though wwfan's guidelines are his own interpretation and not hard & fast rules, that does not prevent me from being confused:

Are the in-game definitions of the different mentalities & fluidities clear enough?

Can we actually rely on/trust them or, like for the roles, do we also need to guess and get experience before really understanding how each mentality & fluidity works in detail?

Remark: I'm not arguing whether wwfan is right or not. I'm addressing the subjet of the lack of clarification of the in-game descriptions.

I don't know if I'm clear enough, but using the "words" Counter and Rigid for Barça's Tiki-Taka Style of Play sounds really strange for me...

To conclude, I believe that we need to understand how a game is actually conceptualised to be able to translate correctly our football knowledge in a game. Am I wrong?

[*] Versatile Players

Extracts of the article suggested by pelejunior:

"It is not a question of 4-4-2 or 4-2-1-3, it is a question of having a team which is ordered, in which the players are connected to one another, which moves together, as if it was a single player". Today few teams know how to do this. Few teams work as a unit – few, really few teams. They are all made up of little groups. There is no great connection, nor a good distribution of players around the pitch."

"Barcelona* has this. You saw it against Manchester United [in this year's Champions League final], this was the big difference between the teams. One was very much a unit, all 11 players were moving as if they were one. The other was moving as individuals who happened to be in proximity to one another. That Milan team was a team who moved well, with the players very closely linked to each other. It would have been a great game against Barcelona, between two great teams."

"Football is not a sport of specialists."

*Pep Guardiola's Barça (Pep Team)

Sacchi describes/confirms that (Pep Guardiola's) Barcelona is a team that attacks as a unit, and defends as a unit.

So, we should translate this in FM by a Very Fluid system.

But, when he says that football is not a sport of specialist, is Arrigo Sacchi implying that Barca plays (a Very Fluid system) with a vast majority of Generic Roles, or in other words with 0-1 (or 2) specialist? I don't think so...

First of all, What is a specialist?

A specialist is a player who is great at one aspect of football.

But, does that necessarily mean that he isn't good in multiple aspects of the game? Does that mean that a specialist is not a versatile player?

So, its not about specialist or generic roles. Its about their abilities of beeing able to play in multiple positions.

Its about the versatility of the players.

NB: Read this article about Universal players vs Specialists.

Extracts:

It’s not necessarily about being maximally good at one aspect or about being great at multiple aspects; it seems that certain aspects of football are being highlighted more than others.

Pep Guardiola [...] plays central midfielders at centre back, full backs high up the pitch, strikers who drop deep into midfield, and natural goal scorers out wide.

However, Barcelona is not a team of players who display universal mastery of all footballing skills. (Concept of Total Football)

"Barcelona have players who can play multiple positions but they aren’t universal in terms of their attributes.

In fact, when you look at it that way, Barcelona are a team of the most extreme specialists on the planet".

Arrigo Sacchi: "The future of football will be converting the pitch into one large midfield zone".

What did he actually meant? He meant that the future of football is the pitch being inhabited by players who display attributes of midfielders.

--> Pep Guardiola during the pre-match conference of Manchester City-Bayern München:

"It is not easy to play good without midfield players. I love midfield players. They are the most intelligent players. If I had my way I would have 1,000 of them in my squad."

--> Pep Guardiola’s use of Philipp Lahm

"Philipp Lahm is the most intelligent player I’ve ever coached.

He understands the game. Not all players do. A lot of players understand his position. Philipp can play in all positions. Football is a game where people move and you have to decide in one second what’s going on in your position as well as all around the field, and what he decides in that moment is right”.

Now, lets have a look:

  • In Real Life, Barça has at least 3 specialists: Messi is a F9, Iniesta a DLP or AP, Xavi a DLP.
    --> regarding to this guide we should opt for "Standard" or "Rigid" in FM.
  • Daniel Alves is a CWB, Piqué is a BPD and Victor Valdes is a SK.
    If you regard that those roles are also specialist roles than we have a total of 6 specialists.
    --> regarding to this guide we should translate this in FM by "Very Rigid" in FM.

Did the Pep Team played in a more Rigid system In Real Life? Of course not! The Pep Team had a fluid, expressive, and proactive system that focuses on team work.

Remember, Arrigo Sacchi insist in most of his interviews that the collective is more important than individuals!

When Sacchi said "Football is not a sport of specialists.", I think that he actually meant "Football is not a sport of individuals".

Check this article in which Sacchi gives Real Madrid Galácticos as an example of a reactive system were the individual became more important than the collective.

Sacchi puts the emphasis on Teamwork. So, again, its not about specialist or generic roles, because both can play collectively.

Its all about creating a tactic/strategie in which the collective/whole is more important/greater then individuals.

The secret is a Well-Balanced Team that only can be achieved by teamwork regardless of the type of roles.

Finally, does FM (or this guide) has the same definition of a specialist?

Philosophies/Styles: The philosophies/styles are mentality and creative freedom structures. They range from being very structured with low creative freedom, to being very unstructured with lots of creative freedom.

In Very Fluid philosophies, you expect everybody to do a bit of everything, which means specialist roles are redundant.

If philosophies in FM's ME are coded like this, then it seems that FM/this guide confuse specialists and individual players.

Is this interpretation implying that a player becomes more a individual player then a team player when we increase his creative freedom in FM?

Don't you think that a player with a lot of creative freedom can still remain a team-minded player?

Although, Barça players has a lot of creative freedom, they remain a very structured and organised team in which the players bear in mind the teamwork.

Barça play football as a unit nevertheless they have the most extreme specialists...

So, it seems that the use of the word specialist is misleading, isn't it?

The real question is:

Is it possible to play a Very Fluid system with a lot of specialist in FM? According to this guide's "no hard and no fast rules" the answer is No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real question is:

Is it possible to play a Very Fluid system with a lot of specialist in FM? According to this guide's "no hard and no fast rules" the answer is No.

I believe it should be "yes".. The main problem when using a lot of specialists in the current ME, is the restrictions they have in their two main tactical settings: creativity and mentality. In the rigid philosophies they would differ more in these settings from the rest of the squad, thus giving more defined playstyles for the specialists. Thus the impact of giving a specialist role in the fluid settings is much smaller, so selecting a specialist role will not differ that much from the more generic roles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lam   

  1. The in-game descriptions needs a lot more clarification
    For instance, let's take Barcelona's style of play (Pep Team):
    wwfan wrote a thread (in 2011) about his interpretation of Barça that argued Counter was the most natural strategy for them and that they were far more rigid than fluid (in FM Language).
    Now, in this guide he makes the distinction/difference between specialist & generic roles: in short, the more specialist roles, the more rigid the tactic.
    So, in order to replicate Barcelona's style of play in FM accordting to wwfan, the best choice seems to be a counter/rigid strategy?
    Hmm, can we conclude that the most natural choice for Borussia Dortmund is a Control/Fluid strategy in FM Language?
    This seems to be in contradiction with the in-game descriptions.
    Logically, after reading the in-game descriptions, my first choice for Barça is Control & (Very) Fluid:
    • SI's description of the Control mentality is the one which matches more with Barça's Possession Football.
    • As Barça is a team were the collective is more important then individuals, the fluidity should be Fluid or even Very Fluid.

To tell you the truth, even though wwfan's guidelines are his own interpretation and not hard & fast rules, that does not prevent me from being confused:

Are the in-game definitions of the different mentalities & fluidities clear enough?

Can we actually rely on/trust them or, like for the roles, do we also need to guess and get experience before really understanding how each mentality & fluidity works in detail?

Remark: I'm not arguing whether wwfan is right or not. I'm addressing the subjet of the lack of clarification of the in-game descriptions.

I don't know if I'm clear enough, but using the "words" Counter and Rigid for Barça's Tiki-Taka Style of Play sounds really strange for me...

To conclude, I believe that we need to understand how a game is actually conceptualised to be able to translate correctly our football knowledge in a game. Am I wrong?

[*] Versatile Players

Sacchi describes/confirms that (Pep Guardiola's) Barcelona is a team that attacks as a unit, and defends as a unit.

So, we should translate this in FM by a Very Fluid system.

But, when he says that football is not a sport of specialist, is Arrigo Sacchi implying that Barca plays (a Very Fluid system) with a vast majority of Generic Roles, or in other words with 0-1 (or 2) specialist? I don't think so...

First of all, What is a specialist?

A specialist is a player who is great at one aspect of football.

But, does that necessarily mean that he isn't good in multiple aspects of the game? Does that mean that a specialist is not a versatile player?

So, its not about specialist or generic roles. Its about their abilities of beeing able to play in multiple positions.

Its about the versatility of the players.

Now, lets have a look:

  • In Real Life, Barça has at least 3 specialists: Messi is a F9, Iniesta a DLP or AP, Xavi a DLP.
    --> regarding to this guide we should opt for "Standard" or "Rigid" in FM.
  • Daniel Alves is a CWB, Piqué is a BPD and Victor Valdes is a SK.
    If you regard that those roles are also specialist roles than we have a total of 6 specialists.
    --> regarding to this guide we should translate this in FM by "Very Rigid" in FM.

Did the Pep Team played in a more Rigid system In Real Life? Of course not! The Pep Team had a fluid, expressive, and proactive system that focuses on team work.

Remember, Arrigo Sacchi insist in most of his interviews that the collective is more important than individuals!

When Sacchi said "Football is not a sport of specialists.", I think that he actually meant "Football is not a sport of individuals".

Check this article in which Sacchi gives Real Madrid Galácticos as an example of a reactive system were the individual became more important than the collective.

Sacchi puts the emphasis on Teamwork. So, again, its not about specialist or generic roles, because both can play collectively.

Its all about creating a tactic/strategie in which the collective/whole is more important/greater then individuals.

The secret is a Well-Balanced Team that only can be achieved by teamwork regardless of the type of roles.

Finally, does FM (or this guide) has the same definition of a specialist?

If philosophies in FM's ME are coded like this, then it seems that FM/this guide confuse specialists and individual players.

Is this interpretation implying that a player becomes more a individual player then a team player when we increase his creative freedom in FM?

Don't you think that a player with a lot of creative freedom can still remain a team-minded player?

Although, Barça players has a lot of creative freedom, they remain a very structured and organised team in which the players bear in mind the teamwork.

Barça play football as a unit nevertheless they have the most extreme specialists...

So, it seems that the use of the word specialist is misleading, isn't it?

The real question is:

Is it possible to play a Very Fluid system with a lot of specialist in FM? According to this guide's "no hard and no fast rules" the answer is No.

.....erm...... yes? What's the question?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.....erm...... yes? What's the question?

LoL :D And yet I'm asking many questions.

Like wwfan said "It is a guide designed to get you thinking, not a list of hard and fast rules" So, I'm thinking...:)

I'm a little bit confused about how to translate my football knowledge in the game since I've read this guide and wwfan's interpretation of Barça :).

We all agree, that it is possible to play a Very Fluid system with a lot of specialists IRL, right?

My concern is to understand why this isn't possible in FM?

The correlation between specialists and rigid systems, made in this guide, is confusing me.

Why did wwfan actually suggest a limited amount of specialists for each philosophy?

wwfan did translate Pep Guardiola's Team in FM in a Counter Rigid strategy with a lot of specialist.

Now, is it legitimate to say that he could also have translate it in a Control Fluid strategy with a lot of generic roles?

In other words, does this guide implies that "a Very Rigid system with a lot of Specialists roles" is almost the same as "a Very Fluid system with a lot of generic roles" in FM?

Why does the translation contradicts real life terminology?

I would like to have more clarification on the reasoning behind this guide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
THOG   
...

This is an interesting post and the distinction between the generalist/specialist dichotomy and the collectivist/individualist dichotomy is something I've been thinking about myself in working out a slightly revised interpretation of TC concepts.

The conclusion I came to is that the collectivist/individualist dichotomy is not something that is really reflected in tactics. It is a question of personal disposition controlled by various mental attributes (e.g., Work Rate, Teamwork, etc.) The generalist/specialist dichotomy is more of a question of the specific division of responsibilities in a team whereas all fluidity settings in FM are fluid in a broader historical sense assuming you spread out duties among the different positional strata. That is, all team settings and players are programmed to play dynamic, modern football that has been fundamentally and irrevocably influenced by the tactical pioneers of the 60's, 70's and 80's, not the sort of ultra-rigid formation-movement football that those pioneers were going up against. To this extent, it's difficult to place these managers in the context of FM since FM is very much a game about modern football, not a game about pitting the tactical assumptions of the 1970's vs. the tactical assumptions of the 21st century. To that extent, it's not particularly helpful to think about Sacchi, Lobanovskyi, etc. in terms of FM tactics since they were working within a very different environment and tactical vernacular than the one FM assumes as its basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lam   
This is an interesting post and the distinction between the generalist/specialist dichotomy and the collectivist/individualist dichotomy is something I've been thinking about myself in working out a slightly revised interpretation of TC concepts..

You need to get out more!

On a serious note, this thread really is very interesting. I've generally found the game relatively easy to date, however this edition is causing me some angst.

In FM13 I really tried to get into the detail of what the philosophies meant and, if i recall correctly, Balanced allowed you to position your players on the field where you wanted based on their mentality which was driven by their duty. ie (A) was further upfield, whilst (S) generally maintained their position.

There were two settings that where almost the same as they set mentalities across the team the same, but one was more defensively minded, had less creative freedom and restricted roaming, where as the more fluid had identical mentalities across the team but had more roaming and creativity, though I can not recall if these were rigid/fluid or very rigid/ very fluid.

Then beyond that the last set were similar again with mentalities based on roles. So the stricter of the two (the rigid/vrigid) spread the mentalities in the same manner as their opposite setup, but were more defensive, and again had limits on roam/creativity. Similarly the v/fluid version spread the mentalities in the same fashion but had more freedom on roam/creativity.

It's worth noting that on some of these setups changes to freedom and roaming in team instructions didnt make a difference to the team.

It's all very confusing.......

I settled on Balanced in the end as I decided that positioning players where I wanted them at the time was the best move for me. It was often easier to get players involved in game by adjusting their duty and sitting them higher or lower on the field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
janbak   
  1. The in-game descriptions needs a lot more clarification
    For instance, let's take Barcelona's style of play (Pep Team):
    wwfan wrote a thread (in 2011) about his interpretation of Barça that argued Counter was the most natural strategy for them and that they were far more rigid than fluid (in FM Language).
    Now, in this guide he makes the distinction/difference between specialist & generic roles: in short, the more specialist roles, the more rigid the tactic.
    So, in order to replicate Barcelona's style of play in FM accordting to wwfan, the best choice seems to be a counter/rigid strategy?
    Hmm, can we conclude that the most natural choice for Borussia Dortmund is a Control/Fluid strategy in FM Language?
    This seems to be in contradiction with the in-game descriptions.
    Logically, after reading the in-game descriptions, my first choice for Barça is Control & (Very) Fluid:
    • SI's description of the Control mentality is the one which matches more with Barça's Possession Football.
    • As Barça is a team were the collective is more important then individuals, the fluidity should be Fluid or even Very Fluid.

To tell you the truth, even though wwfan's guidelines are his own interpretation and not hard & fast rules, that does not prevent me from being confused:

Are the in-game definitions of the different mentalities & fluidities clear enough?

Can we actually rely on/trust them or, like for the roles, do we also need to guess and get experience before really understanding how each mentality & fluidity works in detail?

Remark: I'm not arguing whether wwfan is right or not. I'm addressing the subjet of the lack of clarification of the in-game descriptions.

I don't know if I'm clear enough, but using the "words" Counter and Rigid for Barça's Tiki-Taka Style of Play sounds really strange for me...

To conclude, I believe that we need to understand how a game is actually conceptualised to be able to translate correctly our football knowledge in a game. Am I wrong?

[*] Versatile Players

Sacchi describes/confirms that (Pep Guardiola's) Barcelona is a team that attacks as a unit, and defends as a unit.

So, we should translate this in FM by a Very Fluid system.

But, when he says that football is not a sport of specialist, is Arrigo Sacchi implying that Barca plays (a Very Fluid system) with a vast majority of Generic Roles, or in other words with 0-1 (or 2) specialist? I don't think so...

First of all, What is a specialist?

A specialist is a player who is great at one aspect of football.

But, does that necessarily mean that he isn't good in multiple aspects of the game? Does that mean that a specialist is not a versatile player?

So, its not about specialist or generic roles. Its about their abilities of beeing able to play in multiple positions.

Its about the versatility of the players.

Now, lets have a look:

  • In Real Life, Barça has at least 3 specialists: Messi is a F9, Iniesta a DLP or AP, Xavi a DLP.
    --> regarding to this guide we should opt for "Standard" or "Rigid" in FM.
  • Daniel Alves is a CWB, Piqué is a BPD and Victor Valdes is a SK.
    If you regard that those roles are also specialist roles than we have a total of 6 specialists.
    --> regarding to this guide we should translate this in FM by "Very Rigid" in FM.

Did the Pep Team played in a more Rigid system In Real Life? Of course not! The Pep Team had a fluid, expressive, and proactive system that focuses on team work.

Remember, Arrigo Sacchi insist in most of his interviews that the collective is more important than individuals!

When Sacchi said "Football is not a sport of specialists.", I think that he actually meant "Football is not a sport of individuals".

Check this article in which Sacchi gives Real Madrid Galácticos as an example of a reactive system were the individual became more important than the collective.

Sacchi puts the emphasis on Teamwork. So, again, its not about specialist or generic roles, because both can play collectively.

Its all about creating a tactic/strategie in which the collective/whole is more important/greater then individuals.

The secret is a Well-Balanced Team that only can be achieved by teamwork regardless of the type of roles.

Finally, does FM (or this guide) has the same definition of a specialist?

If philosophies in FM's ME are coded like this, then it seems that FM/this guide confuse specialists and individual players.

Is this interpretation implying that a player becomes more a individual player then a team player when we increase his creative freedom in FM?

Don't you think that a player with a lot of creative freedom can still remain a team-minded player?

Although, Barça players has a lot of creative freedom, they remain a very structured and organised team in which the players bear in mind the teamwork.

Barça play football as a unit nevertheless they have the most extreme specialists...

So, it seems that the use of the word specialist is misleading, isn't it?

The real question is:

Is it possible to play a Very Fluid system with a lot of specialist in FM? According to this guide's "no hard and no fast rules" the answer is No.

Very interesting post, thank you

... but it seems to me you're making confusion among generic/specialist PLAYERS and generic/specialist ROLES, in fact you are focused on players but wwfan is focused on roles

In any case I agree with you about the fact that introducing something like the distinction Generalist Vs Specialist roles that isn't visibile in the game interface is very confusing :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
janbak   
The whole point of this thread is explaining and supporting the move away from sliders and numbers to try and help people think about football concepts. Making all the numbers explicit again would somewhat undermine that.

I can agree with you just to some extent, but for example with the editor I can see and edit Players hidden parameters and their preferred actions, it should be enough for me to have the opportunity to do the same with Roles ... why not? It seems that SI want to maintain something secret to force people to guess how the game works instead of understand it ...

If you compare FM with historical grand strategy games like Europa Universalis you can see that there everything you click a tooltip appears saying which parameters you are changing, the starting value and the new value ... and in this way the game is not simpler but force you to understand instead of guessing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Britrock   
But, I can't choose for Rooney the option of More Risky Passes. :S

If you can't choose an option (i.e. it's greyed out) then that's because the option is already selected as a default for that role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stu_3145   
I've generally found the game relatively easy to date, however this edition is causing me some angst.

I am feeling very similar ... I have been successful on previous versions but am struggling to produce results in my pre-season friendlies against some extremely weaker teams ... without a doubt due to the new set up of how the tactic variables interact with one another

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×