wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Need something clearing up if possible. You obv have all the new instructions but how do we know what the defaults already are, am I missing a section? Do I have to shape the role individually or are there certain settings working in the background? for info, love the way you can tailor roles to players as well as positions, this is immense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakS Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Basically, you don't know what are the default instructions wez. You have to rely on the pop-up definition, watching it in the ME and guess from what is modifiable and what is not. For example, if a player can not "shot more often" but can "shot less", he is obviously on "long shot : often". But, I'd be wary of try to go back to sliders instructions, even only mentally, because some instructions may be contextual depending on the role you are in. Roam from position may be not interpreted the same way between a DLF-S or IF-A for example. FM14 has shift towards concepts, instructions are maybe not universal anymore but conceptual The CM-A has always had RFD-Often but he can go higher up the pitch since the individual instructions is available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 You're not missing anything - the defaults are no longer made explicitly clear, and some of the Player Instructions are locked in/out of Roles. If you start experimenting, you'll see that if you have a Winger on Attack as an example, different Individual Instructions are available to those of a Winger on Support. It'll take a while to adjust to, but should become second nature after a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 Cheers once again NaKs. I guess im going to have to learn from the ground up, which is good i guess, feels kinda fresh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 You're not missing anything - the defaults are no longer made explicitly clear, and some of the Player Instructions are locked in/out of Roles.If you start experimenting, you'll see that if you have a Winger on Attack as an example, different Individual Instructions are available to those of a Winger on Support. It'll take a while to adjust to, but should become second nature after a while. Ok cool, so should one assume these players would act as they would in real life as a default? Or do they act as a blank canvas (but by default doing basic winger instructions), for us to then mold them to how we believe they would play best? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakS Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 They are not blank canvas, they are roughly doing a FM13 winger-support/attack job and some aspect of role are locked. I think "dribbling" is locked for winger for example, but you can edit other instructions not by using slider but individual instructions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 ah ok get ya (i think ), some trial and error required me thinks but i think someone might need to do a shiny guide at some point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 Sorry one more, will the PPM's have an effect on the instructions? So for example if i have a fullback who likes to get fwd often, would this instruction be blanked out or is the opposite, would i need to select it? (or... would he do this as part of the ppm no matter what the instruction?) If it works like fm13 then ignore me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 PPM's are still the same, they make the player try that move more. They never really altered sliders like people claimed anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 The messiah returns thanks man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 argghh one more thing... I like to play a pressing game with zonal marking. I cant see where i can implement this in the team instructions, i was going to use hassle opponents but if i remember this would add man marking as well as closing down. Any ideas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jep Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 argghh one more thing... I like to play a pressing game with zonal marking. I cant see where i can implement this in the team instructions, i was going to use hassle opponents but if i remember this would add man marking as well as closing down.Any ideas? I think using Offside Trap and Tighter marking in team instructions, along with an attacking team mentality, should mean your players close down to max in midfield and attack, and with all on zonal marking bar DC's and DM's. You can then if you wish ask defenders to close down more on individual instructions if you need them to. I still can't see an option where I can get my CD's and DM's to go zonal though which is a shame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Default marking is now Zonal, so Man Marking has to be achieved via Player Instructions - specific man marking appears to have fallen by the wayside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jep Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Default marking is now Zonal, so Man Marking has to be achieved via Player Instructions - specific man marking appears to have fallen by the wayside. Nice one, thanks for the clarification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Default marking is now Zonal, so Man Marking has to be achieved via Player Instructions - specific man marking appears to have fallen by the wayside. It's available on the pre-match player instructions screen and in the far left drop down menu during the match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
isignedupfornorealreason Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 You can really see the set up in 3D though, Defensive pretty much parks the bus compared to Standard. I reckon Standard is going to be the 'go to' style for most matches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Default marking is now Zonal, so Man Marking has to be achieved via Player Instructions - specific man marking appears to have fallen by the wayside. Man Marking is kaput as it was considered anachronistic (and buggy). Zonal is now the basic marking system, which can be supplemented by specific man marking, which is, as mentioned before, available on the pre-match player instructions screen and in the far left drop down menu during the match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 And to clarify about Pressing, this is "Hassle Opponents". This instruction no longer applies man marking. It is now effectively a zonal press. In sliderese, Hassle = 20 d-line, 20 closing down, stand off = 1 d-line, 1 closing down. If you want players to hold position, drop deeper reduces the d-line and closing down by 5 (aggressive base strategies), 3 (standard base strategies), or 1 (cautious base strategies). Push higher does the same in reverse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 And to clarify about Pressing, this is "Hassle Opponents". This instruction no longer applies man marking. It is now effectively a zonal press. Thats exactly what i was looking for, cheers RT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyc31 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I haven't played the game yet but, I must say this all sounds very confusing. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but are you now unable to give every player every instruction i.e. Make a centre back run with ball often (not that I would do that btw. Just using it as an example)? Like I sad, forgive me if misunderstanding, reading the most mind numbing document in work so brain is switched off right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but are you now unable to give every player every instruction i.e. Make a centre back run with ball often (not that I would do that btw. Just using it as an example)? Correct. The instructions that don't really fit a Role have been greyed out, so you can't apply instructions which don't intuitively fit that Role. The argument is that if you want a Role to do something that is greyed out, then you didn't want that Role in the first place. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but there's a logic there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Jonsson Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well then they really need to add a lot of new roles, or the ability to tailor make your own, otherwise you will be forced to use what the people at SI consideres "logical" roles. That's all well and good if you just want results, but if you want to be creative and inventive, that won't be possible. If I remember correctly, you can't teach any player any PPM either (without retraining them to another position), so teaching the centre back to "run with ball often" might not be possible either? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taipan Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Am I missing something or is no option where you can create personalized Player "Set Piece" instructions? The instructions are there for "Any player", but disappear when you add a player to create individual personalized instructions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyc31 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Correct. The instructions that don't really fit a Role have been greyed out, so you can't apply instructions which don't intuitively fit that Role.The argument is that if you want a Role to do something that is greyed out, then you didn't want that Role in the first place. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but there's a logic there! That does make sense Less opportunity to pick the wrong instruction for role. Looking forward to playing this. Though, will probably wait until first patch. Cheers for the reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well then they really need to add a lot of new roles, or the ability to tailor make your own, otherwise you will be forced to use what the people at SI consideres "logical" roles. That's all well and good if you just want results, but if you want to be creative and inventive, that won't be possible. If I remember correctly, you can't teach any player any PPM either (without retraining them to another position), so teaching the centre back to "run with ball often" might not be possible either? But you can already tailor the default Roles within boundaries that keep the essence of the original Role. I've quoted it before, but the new system still enables 2,000,000 combinations - that is a hell of a lot of options. The PPM question is a good one that I don't know the answer to offhand. Clearly it wouldn't make sense to have all PPMs available to all players, as some just wouldn't be appropriate. I'll try and find a definitive answer, or hope that Cleon drifts by..... There's no point adding reams of new Roles, because people already argue that Role descriptions offer insufficient detail. Adding more Roles to plug a perceived lack of options is not the way to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 That does make sense Less opportunity to pick the wrong instruction for role. Looking forward to playing this. Though, will probably wait until first patch. Cheers for the reply. It's actually pretty solid already for a Beta. There are a couple of ME related issues that are a bit irritating, but they are already known and being looked at if you take a look in the pre-release Beta Bugs section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyc31 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 It's actually pretty solid already for a Beta.There are a couple of ME related issues that are a bit irritating, but they are already known and being looked at if you take a look in the pre-release Beta Bugs section. Correct me if I'm wrong but this isn't a new ME this year right? It's 13's only with improvements? If so I wouldn't expect many bugs. However, I've almost always bought every fm on release day then putting away until it's patched. Actually though, now that I think about it, I normally do this with complaints of 'Super Keepers' and 'Too many long shots'. But, as 13 forced me (in a good way) to learn more about the tactical side of the game I suspect those bugs never existed and where in fact just the ME dealing with my frankly dross tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deserter Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Cheers once again NaKs. I guess im going to have to learn from the ground up, which is good i guess, feels kinda fresh After following the thread about the new tactical roles, I have to say that your positivity is rather refreshing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong but this isn't a new ME this year right? It's 13's only with improvements? That's right. FM13 was always going to be a painful release at the start due to the scale of the changes, but it ended well. A ME rebuild is a gigantic task. FM14 is an evolution of that ME, and the main pain in this version for many users will be the removal of sliders from the point of view of functionality or reference point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Jonsson Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Clearly it wouldn't make sense to have all PPMs available to all players, as some just wouldn't be appropriate. That's exactly why I don't like it! What you think is appropriate or what SI thinks is appropriate may not be what I think is appropriate. In real life football there is nothing stopping me from asking a centre back to dribble through the centre of the park, for example, if I think that it would benefit the team. Thus, even if it's USUALLY a bad idea, I don't see why it shouldn't be an option - especially when they remove the ability to create custom roles! For arguments' sake, say that you can't teach a DC the "runs with ball through centre" PPM, and I doubt there is a DC role that has run with ball instruction set to often, the only option left would be to retrain a player to a position where you can teach that PPM, and then teach him the PPM. That's stupid and will even cause the player to loose CA just because of the retraining. Restricting the player to "logical options" only, will almost inevitably lead to less room for tactical experimentation, which is basically the only thing I like to do in FM at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 PPM's haven't changed and you can still have any player learn any PPM from what I've seen so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Jonsson Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 PPM's haven't changed and you can still have any player learn any PPM from what I've seen so far. Really? That wasn't the case in FM13. I have seen several cases where a PPM I've been looking to teach a player is not available in the list (and it's not one of the ones you can only get through tutoring). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 @Fabian Jonsson - based on Cleon's response, does this not go some distance to resolving your concerns? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Jonsson Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 @Fabian Jonsson - based on Cleon's response, does this not go some distance to resolving your concerns? Yes it would. Maybe not all the way, but I'm sure with roles/duties, team instructions, player instructions and PPMs (plus player attributes, ofc), there's probably enough room for tactical tinkering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Really? That wasn't the case in FM13. I have seen several cases where a PPM I've been looking to teach a player is not available in the list (and it's not one of the ones you can only get through tutoring). It was the same on FM13. If one didn't exists then you either didn't have the required coach who could teach it or your facilities were not upgraded enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Jonsson Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 It was the same on FM13. If one didn't exists then you either didn't have the required coach who could teach it or your facilities were not upgraded enough. It wasn't the facilities, so maybe coach then. How does that work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 It wasn't the facilities, so maybe coach then. How does that work? For attacking PPM's you want an attacking coach, for defensive PPM's a defensive coach etc. I had my DC's with runs with ball through the centre, looks for pass, dictates tempo, stops play etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Jonsson Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Thanks. Like we've said a lot the last couple of days: would be good with some sort of manual and/or decent in-game descriptions... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 A question in GD has been raised that I don't know the answer to as I'm at work and can't check: How does player swapping work? If I want 4 players to swap, is this possible, and can I choose who swaps with who? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dooter7th Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 i like the new set up , but i do think its silly that you cant see the default settings fora player role if i put a striker as a pocaher , id like to be able to see what he is going to do as a poacher ( dribble more often , play out wide , free role y or n ) - then i can adjust and using the new shouts after if i want him to do something more or less than his default does that make sense ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 i like the new set up , but i do think its silly that you cant see the default settings fora player role if i put a striker as a pocaher , id like to be able to see what he is going to do as a poacher ( dribble more often , play out wide , free role y or n ) - then i can adjust and using the new shouts after if i want him to do something more or less than his default does that make sense ?? I do agree to this (as mentioned earlier), i want to see what he is doing pre any intructions to give me an idea of how to shape him. Feel like im actually breaking him rather than fix if i dont know the defaults. Its the one thing thats stops me giving the full to the new settings. Im having to go back to FM13 to see what the default settings are to make sure i dont contradict what im doing... dunno maybe its not the way to go but its giving me a bit of a head ache Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I do agree to this (as mentioned earlier), i want to see what he is doing pre any intructions to give me an idea of how to shape him. Feel like im actually breaking him rather than fix if i dont know the defaults. Its the one thing thats stops me giving the full to the new settings.Im having to go back to FM to see what the default settings are to make sure i dont contradict what im doing... dunno maybe its me but its giving me a bit of a head ache Why not just pick the role and then add the shouts you want to use rather than stressing what's going on under the hood? Think of the role as a base and you refine it with the shouts. The description gives you enough of an idea on the basics he does. What is happening under the hood doesn't really matter. Each player will play the role different just like IRL anyway, so even if you could see some settings it doesn't mean he'd be doing that as it would be determined his attributes etc. I understand the lack of documentation will cause issues and I agree SI have always been poor when it comes to explaining things. But I don't see the need for reference points for everything when the description is enough and if you want further explanations then you'd give him the default role and see how he plays and interprets the role via a friendly game etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 Why not just pick the role and then add the shouts you want to use rather than stressing what's going on under the hood? . Because im a freek and need to know whats going on, it will only eat away at me otherwise Think of the role as a base and you refine it with the shouts. The description gives you enough of an idea on the basics he does. What is happening under the hood doesn't really matter. Each player will play the role different just like IRL anyway, so even if you could see some settings it doesn't mean he'd be doing that as it would be determined his attributes etc. Ok see what your saying but dont i need to kow what his base is to shape him using the instructions? I guess what im saying is, how do i go from A to C if dont even know where A is? I understand the lack of documentation will cause issues and I agree SI have always been poor when it comes to explaining things. But I don't see the need for reference points for everything when the description is enough and if you want further explanations then you'd give him the default role and see how he plays and interprets the role via a friendly game etc. It needs a guide for sure because im still kind of confused, i guess if im not getting it now I never will without a detailed guide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dooter7th Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 i dont mind that the sliders have gone , i prefer it but if you cant see the defualts maybe there shouldnt be any defaults at all - you should give him a full list of intructions it i put my striker as a poacher ( because i want him to be a fox in the box ) and in instructions i tell him to stay narrow , as i dont want him to stay pull out wide , whats the point if his default with a poacher has a free role ticked , without my knowing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 For what it's worth, I'm forgetting all about sliders, and I think using FM13 as a reference might delay your adaption to the new system. Like Cleon says, "What is happening under the hood doesn't really matter. Each player will play the role different just like IRL anyway, so even if you could see some settings it doesn't mean he'd be doing that as it would be determined his attributes etc." It's a BIG, change in mindset needed, and it won't be to everyone's taste, but I think it will accelerate your acclimitisation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Ok see what your saying but dont i need to kow what his base is to shape him using the instructions? I guess what im saying is, how do i go from A to C if dont even know where A is? The role tells you what it does though. Any more that what it currently offers and we are talking about specific and very in-depth stuff which is what you can achieve by watching games etc. It's going to take some time for some users to get used of it but this is the way things are now. So people can either waste the next 3 months moaning about it and not get any further or they can accept it and adapt and take on board the new tactics (not you personally Wez I'm speaking generally) and get on with it. The descriptions are more than enough to help you understand the players role and whats expected of him. Anything else you want him to do/not do you create by the use of shouts. I'd not use FM13 as a reference either due to what RT says above. Start to think of FM as roles rather that under the hood settings and you'll have a much simpler transition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midfield Triangle Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Prima games or brady games should make a strategy guide a would buy it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez007 Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 The role tells you what it does though. Any more that what it currently offers and we are talking about specific and very in-depth stuff which is what you can achieve by watching games etc.It's going to take some time for some users to get used of it but this is the way things are now. So people can either waste the next 3 months moaning about it and not get any further or they can accept it and adapt and take on board the new tactics (not you personally Wez I'm speaking generally) and get on with it. The descriptions are more than enough to help you understand the players role and whats expected of him. Anything else you want him to do/not do you create by the use of shouts. I'd not use FM13 as a reference either due to what RT says above. Start to think of FM as roles rather that under the hood settings and you'll have a much simpler transition. Ok cheers mate. The description of the roles... remind me again where is that? Is it in the tactic creator? I know what they should be doing in real life but finding the terms in FM would be a help to refresh my mind. Thanks again. Im happy to get on with it and crack on but i just dont want to start off on the wrong road and find myslef lost after X amount of time having to find my way back. Be good to start my mindset off on the right path and find out the other bits for myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Ok cheers mate. The description of the roles... remind me again where is that? Is it in the tactic creator? I know what they should be doing in real life but finding the terms in FM would be a help to refresh my mind. Thanks again. Just hover your mouse over the short form Role description on the Tactics screen where you can see your formation. Hovering over Role outlines the Role description, hovering over Duty details any refinements to that description that the Duty prompts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobBRFC Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Default marking is now Zonal, so Man Marking has to be achieved via Player Instructions - specific man marking appears to have fallen by the wayside. I did think that about specific Man Marking, used it quite a lot last year as well on Defensive Wingers :/ unless im missing something Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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