FM 14: Sliders gone, thoughts?

[Da_Funk]

What couldn't be done is have a Limited DC on passing 2 Mentality 2, play differently to a Normal DC on the exact same settings. Without being tied to the sliders, you can keep the majority of the players game the same, but just tweak the way he responds to slightly risky situations when he has possession in his own half. So they would both still look to play the ball out from the back if there was no pressure, but under pressure, the Limited DC would hoof it a lot quicker.

Ok. Agree on that and that's what I thought there was behind the whole "role" idea, more in detail am I wrong if I say that we have different AI/routines in different roles? I can't believe that 2 different midfielder roles, with the same "passing" value instruction slider, have one player passing shorter than other because his "slider" is more "shorter focused" (absurd to describe).

I had another idea on my mind. Read LDC has Left DC in a 3 man defense. I've read somewhere that the new system, I don't know why, let's the "lateral" defenders of the 3 man defense moving wide as they should, aiding the halfback. Why is that? Why was this not possible before? There are not different roles when you have a 3 man line now.

[RTHerringbone]

Why is that? Why was this not possible before?

The functionality of sliders was such that they obliterated any concept of Roles.

You could modify a player to a state where the code couldn't really label that Role.

As a result of this, SI couldn't code the notion of "in the event that Role A does Action B, encourage Role C to do Action D."

This oversimplifies what the loss of sliders enables, but it is in the right ball park.

Describe how the backwards movement of a Half Back could be done with sliders (it couldn't), and how the splitting of DCs could be done with sliders once a player dropped back (it couldn't). This second element is the pertinent one.

Whilst the Half Back and the movement it prompts from other Roles isn't perfect yet, it is an example of how SI are now able to create "cause and effect" interrelated movement between Roles.

[bigdunk]

Ok. Agree on that and that's what I thought there was behind the whole "role" idea, more in detail am I wrong if I say that we have different AI/routines in different roles? I can't believe that 2 different midfielder roles, with the same "passing" value instruction slider, have one player passing shorter than other because his "slider" is more "shorter focused" (absurd to describe).

I had another idea on my mind. Read LDC has Left DC in a 3 man defense. I've read somewhere that the new system, I don't know why, let's the "lateral" defenders of the 3 man defense moving wide as they should, aiding the halfback. Why is that? Why was this not possible before? There are not different roles when you have a 3 man line now.

As I understand it, in all FMs prior to this version, roles were effectively just intelligent slider presets - the only thing that mattered in the ME was the sliders. So if you rook a player with a certain role and overrode his slider settings to match that of another role, he would effectively play like the new role, there would be no hang over at all from the role he was assigned in the Tactics Creator. This is what's changed in FM14 - the roles follow through right into the match engine, so the ME knows that player A has been assigned as a Limited DC so it can make him behave like one.

The half back thing is more of a midfielder dropping back into the backline (as Busquets does for Barca). There was no way that this could be done before because there was no slider settings that would tell a DMC to do this. So SI basically had two choices, they could either add a 'Drop into defence' checkbox (in the same was as the 'hold up ball' one), or they could ditch the sliders and add some custom code to the match engine that makes players with a given role do it. If they added the checkbox, they would be stuck supporting and maintaining code for all sorts of weird and wonderful situations that would basically never be used (i.e. what happens if you check the box for strikers, wingers etc, what happens if you check box the drop in defence checkbox and have high forward runs and so on). By choosing to focus on the roles, SI can concentrate on just adding options that make sense when used in the correct place because they know that Drop into Defence will only ever be used by DMCs that don't have forward runs on. And you can then apply that logic to the other roles as well (imagine if every role had to have it's own custom checkbox to turn on some unique bit of behaviour, it would be utter madness both from a development point of view, and from a user point of view).

[milnerpoint]

Ok. Agree on that and that's what I thought there was behind the whole "role" idea, more in detail am I wrong if I say that we have different AI/routines in different roles? I can't believe that 2 different midfielder roles, with the same "passing" value instruction slider, have one player passing shorter than other because his "slider" is more "shorter focused" (absurd to describe).

.

No it didnt work like that, as bigdunk says, the old roles were nothing more than pre-set slider settings. If you messed around with the sliders after choosing a role, that role then didnt matter, you could set up a player in the anchorman role and have him play like a trequiesta if you wanted too. Now the roles make changes that you were never able to change even with the sliders available.

[Shake Appeal]

Because of the removal of sliders, I have never spent as much time watching full highlights of matches, or as much time in the analysis tool, as I have in the FM14 beta.

And that is how it should be.

[wwfan]

Can you tell with the actual system where should my DLF approximately drop and fall? It's not that a notch of a slider needs to solve every instant problem in every occasion, you still don't get that. The illusion argument is toilet paper too, since you were the one who wrote a guide of 50 pages (citation), which became a sort of bible, and you were giving suggestions for years according to this guide and sliders. Was it all a lie? Was FM a lie and a FRAUD for decades? You're supporting this thesis and you have to admit it then.

You are supporting my argument that those who understand sliders don't care if they are gone whereas those that don't want them to remain. I cannot tell you where your DLF should drop and fall, because his movement is relative to what is going on around him and the relative positions of his teammates. You think the isolated slider should tell you exactly how he behaves, and changing the notches on it will directly influence it. They will influence how he behaves, but not in isolation, and often to far too small a degree to be noticeable or relevant. I can and did and could still tell you what all the sliders do in a fifty page thesis, and I absolutely don't think we need them.

I'll tell you a little story about the CF slider. During FML testing, just prior to the development of the TC 1.0, PaulC and I chatted about the behaviour of my FC, who, with very low CF tended to shoot straight at the keeper, but with very high CF scored via a whole range of wonderful shot types. Without masses of evidence, Paul could only assume it was the CF slider causing the difference. It might have been coincidence. It might have been the player getting the ball in better positions. It might have been a great run of form. Over time, it became reasonably obvious that the CF slider was having some effect. However, even if we could isolate that single slider setting as facilitating his run of goals, which we couldn't as his other settings were also important contributors, we had no way of predicting the outcome to the extent we could say the best balance for his finishing was slider notch 14. We just believed a high value made his finishing more creative and a low value forced him to try more basic finishes, which he wasn't very good at. We also concluded after experimentation that a different player with different attributes might behave in an opposite manner and that high CF might result in him blasting shots everywhere. We concluded that understanding sliders at a micro level was almost a complete waste of time and that tendencies to do things at more macro-understood slider settings was a much better way to comprehend how things worked.

I can explain the new tactical module in roughly twelve paragraphs, and in doing so included a structure for every formation known to man, overview tactical schools, and get you thinking about every possible playing style you might want to adopt. With sliders, I'd fall short of explaining mentality settings within the same number of words.

[themadsheep2001]

I can explain the new tactical module in roughly twelve paragraphs, and in doing so included a structure for every formation known to man, overview tactical schools, and get you thinking about every possible playing style you might want to adopt. With sliders, I'd fall short of explaining mentality settings within the same number of words.

Wwfan surely I'm not the only one who has noticed this bit, and thinks you should write this document

[wwfan]

Wwfan surely I'm not the only one who has noticed this bit, and thinks you should write this document

These new mods, eh? Can't get the staff nowadays!

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/366111-How-to-Play-FM14-A-Twelve-Step-Guide

[themadsheep2001]

These new mods, eh? Can't get the staff nowadays!

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/366111-How-to-Play-FM14-A-Twelve-Step-Guide

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

But seriously, I didnt think of the 12 step guide, because it hadnt crossed my mind just how simply the basics could be broken down. For some reason I still expected a 5-6 page document. Yet clearly within that, there are a vast number of ways people can expand and go with their own ideas. Which is why I absolutely do not buy some of this "the creativity is gone" stance that has been floating about

[BiggusD]

Then perhaps they're unrealistic?

You might only have one striker to deal with, but you could be wasting 3 CBs back there (depending on your chosen formation) to deal with him. Surely that requires a change?

Not really. It means that they are going to have to play slow, short passing in order to bring the bloated midfield forward into attacking positions, and by that time my midfield has backtracked. I love when the opponent resorts to slow, short passing in the midfield, as it allows my team to win possession of the ball high up in the field and the chance of a quick attack against a non-compact defense.

[miguelalves]

I was doing just fine with sliders, didn't have a problem understanding the concepts. So, since the concepts are the same basically I also don't have a problem with having no sliders :-) What I believe seems to be the problem is that we don't get to know what are the default instructions of a player's role. We know the instructions unavailable for a role, but by unavailable does this mean they are the default instructions (hard coded) ???

Then there is another issue and let me giver an example: with FM 13, a player could make more risky passes frequently, sometimes ou rarely; in FM14, certain roles give us both options, more risky passes, less risky passes. So, if we don't choose any does this mean that the player will go for the risky passes sometimes (to use the fm13 expression) ???

Finally, I believe SI tried to help most people by removing sliders but right now I think this is new system is some how exagerated by the reason exposed above and by not letting a major customization of the instructions. An example could be the fact that I am obliged to have players crossing, I can only choose the kind of crossing I want.

[Da_Funk]

As I understand it, in all FMs prior to this version, roles were effectively just intelligent slider presets - the only thing that mattered in the ME was the sliders. So if you rook a player with a certain role and overrode his slider settings to match that of another role, he would effectively play like the new role, there would be no hang over at all from the role he was assigned in the Tactics Creator.

No it didnt work like that, as bigdunk says, the old roles were nothing more than pre-set slider settings. If you messed around with the sliders after choosing a role, that role then didnt matter, you could set up a player in the anchorman role and have him play like a trequiesta if you wanted too. Now the roles make changes that you were never able to change even with the sliders available.

I already knew this but I was talking about the actual system in Fm14. I can't find the quote but I've read that the wide movement of the defenders couldn't be programmed in the previous versions. You focused your comments more on the Halfback thing while I was referring more to the "lateral" defenders. If you look at the tactic screen the DCs in the 3-line aren't in the same spot of the 4-line one. Instead they have the same roles that if you put them in a 4-line, so it's not just a "role" matter.

If the statement that I've read is true there must be a "tactic screen spot identification" too, and that should be available in previous versions of FM regardless of sliders or roles system.

Taking the RTH Logic

As a result of this, SI couldn't code the notion of "in the event that Role A does Action B, encourage Role C to do Action D."

I have to think that "in the event that Defender is in "that slightly left/right position defender spot in the tactic screen", (conditional?) with a DMF ahead of him with/without a specific role?, he moves differently/wider than a "Defender in the classic 4-line position" ".

I cannot tell you where your DLF should drop and fall, because his movement is relative to what is going on around him and the relative positions of his teammates. You think the isolated slider should tell you exactly how he behaves, and changing the notches on it will directly influence it.

No, the isolated slider should tell me how he should behave. I know with an approximation how the player should drop, and if he doesn't drop there it can be because of the player himself, because of opposition, because of the flow of the match.

You're not asking a player to go ahead and cross, you instruct him too to cross deep or from byline, to hug sidelines or not. At the same time if and then he'll move forward and/or cross from a specific position is up to the match and you can tell if the plan is working or not, if he does what's requested or not. In the end you're (or want to) giving a degree of movement, you want an Halfback to drop with the defenders, an AMF to move back to the midfield line or to stay in that "between" area, a Poacher to stay with defender and lurk the last 20 meters whenever possibile.

We also concluded after experimentation that a different player with different attributes might behave in an opposite manner and that high CF might result in him blasting shots everywhere.

You can describe an Enganche as a less mobile/slow player, but is it a role/instruction given from the coach or is it because of the skills of the player? The main example of this is always Riquelme, think about it, and we can't say that he was a physically gifted player with pacing. What if I put a Pinzi or Nedved or a Sneijder as Enganche? Does he limit his range and movements? Because that's what I expect from the definition of the role.

If I put Riquelme as Enganche or Trequartista or whatever you want, he'll always be slowish and move with that attitude.

[YKW]

You can describe an Enganche as a less mobile/slow player, but is it a role/instruction given from the coach or is it because of the skills of the player? The main example of this is always Riquelme, think about it, and we can't say that he was a physically gifted player with pacing. What if I put a Pinzi or Nedved or a Sneijder as Enganche? Does he limit his range and movements? Because that's what I expect from the definition of the role.

If I put Riquelme as Enganche or Trequartista or whatever you want, he'll always be slowish and move with that attitude.

Exactly.

[themadsheep2001]

Exactly.

Which was wwfan's earlier point also, players will play roles differently because of their own attributes.

Riquleme might be slowish, but will he be slowish laterally, or just a slowish hook?

[Guest]

I personally wasn't a fan of the sliders, felt they were very out dated and well over due a revamp, 2 notches that way, see what happens, one notch back, yeah that's better.. but I haven't played the beta so I don't know how the new way compares.. it may be worse

[Da_Funk]

Which was wwfan's earlier point also, players will play roles differently because of their own attributes.

Riquleme might be slowish, but will he be slowish laterally, or just a slowish hook?

wwfan's point was to explain the useless time spent on micromanaging sliders.

How can I know now when Riquelme will be slowish laterally, or just a slowish hook?

Don't tell me "read the description of the role and you have it", that's not an answer.

If I put C.Ronaldo as Enganche will he be fast laterally or just a fast hook?

[miguelalves]

Sliders being gone it's not bad and I have done well with sliders. The current problem is the default instructions being unavailable, I don't need to tweak everything, I just need to see the default instructions and how they change when applying team and player instructions.

[themadsheep2001]

wwfan's point was to explain the useless time spent on micromanaging sliders.

How can I know now when Riquelme will be slowish laterally, or just a slowish hook?

Don't tell me "read the description of the role and you have it", that's not an answer.

If I put C.Ronaldo as Enganche will he be fast laterally or just a fast hook?

Why wouldnt I tell you to read the description? That is an answer. One drifts into channels, one doesnt.

Given that Ronaldo is an inherently selfish player, with selfish PPMs I doubt he would interpret either role the way I wanted him too.

I wouldn't be playing him as either role.

[RTHerringbone]

How can I know now when Riquelme will be slowish laterally, or just a slowish hook?

Don't tell me "read the description of the role and you have it", that's not an answer.

If I put C.Ronaldo as Enganche will he be fast laterally or just a fast hook?

Ask yourself how you would have found the answer to these questions if you had sliders in FM14.

If you could explicitly see every element of every Role, would you know how Riquelme or Ronaldo would perform in these Roles?

Roles are frameworks, but not every player is the same.

[themadsheep2001]

Ask yourself how you would have found the answer to these questions if you had sliders in FM14.

If you could explicitly see every element of every Role, would you know how Riquelme or Ronaldo would perform in these Roles?

Roles are frameworks, but not every player is the same.

Either set up you still would have had to watch the player to see how he interpret said instructions and frameworks.

[Cleon]

Either set up you still would have had to watch the player to see how he interpret said instructions and frameworks.

People should focus more on the player they are using in the role rather than over focusing on the role.

I did a whole thread about this in the 'understanding your tactic' thread I did. I used Neymar, Defoe and Adebayor as the Treq in a lone striker formation and each one of them played the role differently. Adebayor was more about his strength and was rather aggressive in his play and due to this would create things that the other 2 couldn't. Neymar was more about his skills when in possession and driving forward. Defoe on the other hand was more about laying it off and then busting a gut to get forward to support and try and finish the move off once he'd passed.

Now if I wasn't viewing the game you'd never know how they played different and the kind of options they gave.

[RTHerringbone]

Either set up you still would have had to watch the player to see how he interpret said instructions and frameworks.

Exactly.

Some of the points I've seen about the removal of sliders or tick boxes are absolutely rational and valid, although the majority can be overcome within the new system.

Conversely, a lot of the "feedback" is incredibly blinkered, unsubstantiated and, frankly, is just a stubborn refusal to embrace change.

[Guest El Payaso]

I was really anticapating this new tactics system as SI did promise that creating tactics would be whole new experience in this version. But now that I've really tested it I'm really not convinced. Basically everything is now pre-made for you and you've been strongly limited with tweaking, with some pre-made roles you can only give maybe 3-4 instructions to that player. It's really hard to make any tactical mistakes now or to find your own tactical identity. There might be 2 million possibilities but how many of these are used or how many of these are actually working in the game.

Now that sliders really are gone, I would hope that you could influence much better in the movement of your formation or certain players. In real life I would be able to just tell my winger that you will need to help the defence much more so track back that opponent's full-back, yeah it might make him exhausted but I would still be able to tell him that. I don't wanna do that by making him defensive winger because that would take something out of his attacking contribution. And with wingers I would also like to be able to make my wingers be more narrow in both defending zone and the last third of the pitch and then hug touchline when playing in the neutral zone. Really can't do anything like this with this current system. These would be real football tactical things.

For me pre-made roles are like having take-away food all the time. You can add spices to it and maybe make it better or worse that way, but it's just not made by you. Ever thought that someone might like to do things on own way and actually like it when they can make it just right or even enjoy when they make mistakes?

And do Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver have exactly same view of cooking every food in the world? Propably not.

[milnerpoint]

People should focus more on the player they are using in the role rather than over focusing on the role.

Exactly, even if we knew exactly what the role was trying to make the player do, it will depend on the particular player, and the particular game. There should be no universal answer for exactly how a player will play each game. We can know roughly how he will attempt to play the game, which we have in the descriptions, but there should always be discrepancies.

[Cleon]

Exactly, even if we knew exactly what the role was trying to make the player do, it will depend on the particular player, and the particular game. There should be no universal answer for exactly how a player will play each game. We can know roughly how he will attempt to play the game, which we have in the descriptions, but there should always be discrepancies.

I did a whole thread about this in the 'understanding your tactic' thread I did. I used Neymar, Defoe and Adebayor as the Treq in a lone striker formation and each one of them played the role differently. Adebayor was more about his strength and was rather aggressive in his play and due to this would create things that the other 2 couldn't. Neymar was more about his skills when in possession and driving forward. Defoe on the other hand was more about laying it off and then busting a gut to get forward to support and try and finish the move off once he'd passed.

Now if I wasn't viewing the game you'd never know how they played different and the kind of options they gave.

[milnerpoint]

I was really anticapating this new tactics system as SI did promise that creating tactics would be whole new experience in this version. But now that I've really tested it I'm really not convinced. Basically everything is now pre-made for you and you've been strongly limited with tweaking, with some pre-made roles you can only give maybe 3-4 instructions to that player. It's really hard to make any tactical mistakes now or to find your own tactical identity. There might be 2 million possibilities but how many of these are used or how many of these are actually working in the game.

Now that sliders really are gone, I would hope that you could influence much better in the movement of your formation or certain players. In real life I would be able to just tell my winger that you will need to help the defence much more so track back that opponent's full-back, yeah it might make him exhausted but I would still be able to tell him that. I don't wanna do that by making him defensive winger because that would take something out of his attacking contribution. And with wingers I would also like to be able to make my wingers be more narrow in both defending zone and the last third of the pitch and then hug touchline when playing in the neutral zone. Really can't do anything like this with this current system. These would be real football tactical things.

For me pre-made roles are like having take-away food all the time. You can add spices to it and maybe make it better or worse that way, but it's just not made by you. Ever thought that someone might like to do things on own way and actually like it when they can make it just right or even enjoy when they make mistakes?

And do Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver have exactly same view of cooking every food in the world? Propably not.

I have my wingers doing both of those things. I set the wingers to man mark wide players, i have my team set up in narrow formation, but when the wingers get the ball they are set to hug the touchline.

[Cleon]

I was really anticapating this new tactics system as SI did promise that creating tactics would be whole new experience in this version. But now that I've really tested it I'm really not convinced. Basically everything is now pre-made for you and you've been strongly limited with tweaking, with some pre-made roles you can only give maybe 3-4 instructions to that player. It's really hard to make any tactical mistakes now or to find your own tactical identity. There might be 2 million possibilities but how many of these are used or how many of these are actually working in the game.

Now that sliders really are gone, I would hope that you could influence much better in the movement of your formation or certain players. In real life I would be able to just tell my winger that you will need to help the defence much more so track back that opponent's full-back, yeah it might make him exhausted but I would still be able to tell him that. I don't wanna do that by making him defensive winger because that would take something out of his attacking contribution. And with wingers I would also like to be able to make my wingers be more narrow in both defending zone and the last third of the pitch and then hug touchline when playing in the neutral zone. Really can't do anything like this with this current system. These would be real football tactical things.

For me pre-made roles are like having take-away food all the time. You can add spices to it and maybe make it better or worse that way, but it's just not made by you. Ever thought that someone might like to do things on own way and actually like it when they can make it just right or even enjoy when they make mistakes?

And do Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver have exactly same view of cooking every food in the world? Propably not.

I keep seeing people say things like this. But the way you are describing how you want the winger to play isn't a winger it's more of a defensive winger.

[RTHerringbone]

Exactly, even if we knew exactly what the role was trying to make the player do, it will depend on the particular player, and the particular game. There should be no universal answer for exactly how a player will play each game. We can know roughly how he will attempt to play the game, which we have in the descriptions, but there should always be discrepancies.

And this encapsulates the entire point perfectly. Knowing x, y and z about a Role is nice, but it isn't conclusive.

We don't homogenise players by sticking them in Roles - their attributes and PPMs fundamentally influence their interpretation of the Role.

This isn't speculation - it is a fact.

The seemingly perpetual circular argument that we need to know everything in order to do anything holds no water whatsoever.

I'm seeing no variability in the arguments for the need to see the sliders, just increasingly peculiar analogies.

[milnerpoint]

I did a whole thread about this in the 'understanding your tactic' thread I did. I used Neymar, Defoe and Adebayor as the Treq in a lone striker formation and each one of them played the role differently. Adebayor was more about his strength and was rather aggressive in his play and due to this would create things that the other 2 couldn't. Neymar was more about his skills when in possession and driving forward. Defoe on the other hand was more about laying it off and then busting a gut to get forward to support and try and finish the move off once he'd passed.

Now if I wasn't viewing the game you'd never know how they played different and the kind of options they gave.

Thats exactly the point, you HAVE to watch the games as each player will play a role differently. I am playing an Arsenal game, and i have set up an advanced playmaker role, i use Ozil, Carzola and Wilshire to fill the role, neither of the three, despite having the same role set, play the position in the same way, Santi will have more long shots, Ozil will dribble more through a team and Wilshire is a more aggresive player defensively when playing there. There is no way to document how each player will play, unless you watch them play and learn from each game.

[milnerpoint]

And this encapsulates the entire point perfectly. Knowing x, y and z about a Role is nice, but it isn't conclusive.

We don't homogenise players by sticking them in Roles - their attributes and PPMs fundamentally influence their interpretation of the Role.

This isn't speculation - it is a fact.

The seemingly perpetual circular argument that we need to know everything in order to do anything holds no water whatsoever.

I'm seeing no variability in the arguments for the need to see the sliders, just increasingly peculiar analogies.

The thing is, this has always been the case, which is why i dont get this argument. People seem to assume that with the sliders they had complete control, but they never, attributes will eventually always take over, all we had before were a heap of settings that ultimately relied on the same things now, the player and the game. Its just now the roles you are trying to achieve are a lot clearer than they have ever been, and the different roles make a huge amount of difference.

It gives me a huge amount of delight to see Carzola play wide left completely different to Podolski, or from the way Walcott is playing on the right.

[Shakes]

It gives me a huge amount of delight to see Carzola play wide left completely different to Podolski, or from the way Walcott is playing on the right.

Sounds like a nightmare to me. This is one reason why I like youth challenges ... you get players early enough to give them the same PPMs and train their attributes into the same shape so they become replaceable cogs in my machine. I don't want uppity players playing the game their way, I don't pay them to play their way, I want them playing my way. When some jerk refuses to unlearn the PPM he is generated with he will be forever less of a player to me, no matter how effective he is I'll only ever be playing him grudgingly.

[milnerpoint]

Sounds like a nightmare to me. This is one reason why I like youth challenges ... you get players early enough to give them the same PPMs and train their attributes into the same shape so they become replaceable cogs in my machine. I don't want uppity players playing the game their way, I don't pay them to play their way, I want them playing my way. When some jerk refuses to unlearn the PPM he is generated with he will be forever less of a player to me, no matter how effective he is I'll only ever be playing him grudgingly.

Hahaha

Thing is i use it in a tactical sense, if Carzola is not having an impact, i bring on Podolski who will play a much different role and hopefully have more of an impact.

Having said that, i will most likely train close replacements to Carzola and Podolski down the line, so im not too dissimilar to yourself.

[robertcornell68]

I did a whole thread about this in the 'understanding your tactic' thread I did. I used Neymar, Defoe and Adebayor as the Treq in a lone striker formation and each one of them played the role differently. Adebayor was more about his strength and was rather aggressive in his play and due to this would create things that the other 2 couldn't. Neymar was more about his skills when in possession and driving forward. Defoe on the other hand was more about laying it off and then busting a gut to get forward to support and try and finish the move off once he'd passed.

Now if I wasn't viewing the game you'd never know how they played different and the kind of options they gave.

If the players are going to do what they want to, why bother having roles at all?

Also, FM classic doesn't have most of the match analysis options. And if you're using instant result you can't watch the match either. How can you tell what your players have been doing?

[milnerpoint]

If the players are going to do what they want to, why bother having roles at all?

Also, FM classic doesn't have most of the match analysis options. And if you're using instant result you can't watch the match either. How can you tell what your players have been doing?

Its not as black and white as that. The player will follow instructions, to a point, but no player is a robot and should do exactly as you tell them at every minute of the game. At some point the player has to make decisions on his own. Would you seriously expect Adebayor, Defoe and Neymar to play the same way?

For the second part, if you want to know what your players are doing, then watch the games.

[Cleon]

If the players are going to do what they want to, why bother having roles at all?

Also, FM classic doesn't have most of the match analysis options. And if you're using instant result you can't watch the match either. How can you tell what your players have been doing?

If the roles dictate how every single player should play the role then why have attributes at all? It's not that simple. The role instructs how you want him to play but the player attributes and personality determine how well he carries that out and how closely he stick to your plan. For example players with low teamwork are less likely to carry out the instructions you've gave them due to them not being team players. Players with poor positioning might find themselves having to do more work when getting caught out of position meaning they might not be able to do what you've instructed for being in the wrong place and so on.

As for the last part that's the downside of having instant results which I thought would have been pretty obvious?

[Da_Funk]

Ask yourself how you would have found the answer to these questions if you had sliders in FM14.

Roles are frameworks, but not every player is the same.

With sliders I knew which variables (aka instructions) were involved. If my Enganche isn't "hooking" enough, if my DLF isn't "linking" I knew I could touch just few variables without having to change a macro setting that touched other things too. And I had many degrees of the same settings (I don't want to repeat myself).

Why wouldnt I tell you to read the description? That is an answer. One drifts into channels, one doesnt.

I wouldn't be playing him as either role.

Because if you ask me "how can I set my player to play like this with sliders?", I'm then allowed to answer "Read the manual and the sliders label, it's all there", or "google full back or football for dummies. You want your lateral defender to move forward and ". Because if the actual system was ok, you'd tell me here, in this forum, in this thread that "this role instruct the player to move so and so, that role instead doesn't make him move in that way".

And since when "drift into channels" = simply moving laterally? If I want my AMF to move laterally I am forced to use Trequartista because he's the only with that setting available? Is it so clear from the different descriptions that one AMF role let's him move free vertically and/or horizontally?

What does drift into channel mean? I just talked about moving laterally.

If you could explicitly see every element of every Role, would you know how Riquelme or Ronaldo would perform in these Roles?

Either set up you still would have had to watch the player to see how he interpret said instructions and frameworks.

That's the point. Finally someone gets it. Slider or not the player still needs to see what's happening on the pitch, to hit and try. But with the roles, the user after few tries can think that the player doesn't fit while it's just of "the system doesn't still allow me to do that".

I know the input and I see if the output is the expected one. Now the input is a mystery mark, I don't know what I'm instructing to my player.

I don't care what the description in few lines tells me, it can't never be enough. I can't go to Riquelme and tell him "You play as Enganche" and give him that 5 lines of description you're giving to me.

What is a Regista?

The Regista is a more aggressive version of the deep-lying playmaker suitable for possession-orientated systems that press high up the pitch. Given complete freedom to dictate play from deep positions, the Regista offers a dynamic and unpredictable creative outlet from behind the attack who seeks to maintain intense pressure by constantly looking for new chances as his more advanced teammates get into goalscoring positions.

Pirlo comes to me and say "hey so you want me to be a DLP with pass into spaces" or "hey couldn't you just notch up the creative freedom and passing sliders?".

The Enganche is the side’s prime creator, a hook that joins midfield and attack and operates behind the strikers and a playmaker who sticks to his position and becomes a pivot to his team as they move around him. It differs to Trequartista, who likes to roam from his position, drifting around and looking for space between the lines.

Kakà comes to me and says "hey if you tell me that I'm an advanced playmaker am I not your side's prime creator behind your striker? Do you want me to be just slow as Riquelme? Regardless of the role you give to us I'll always be better (if I ran like I did ten years ago, btw)! If you want me to stick to position I'll be better because of skills, if you want me to roam I'll be better because he can't move. And if Riquelme can't move...he'll always act like an Enganche."

Then Pirlo comes back knocking at my door and asks me "hey coach you told me about being a Regista, you told me it's a more aggressive playmaker, but does this mean that I have to press more? What about defensive duties to I have to defend the same, do I have to stick to position when I have the ball. And why are you worrying so much about the mobility of Enganche, let's discuss about my mobility, am I more mobile when on/off the ball than a DLP?"

It's not that I have the roles and I have to study them, analyze them, do a reverse-engineering of that and adapt myself in making the most suitable adjustments of how I want to forge my player.

I take a player, I give him the different instructions, based on different concepts (how/when/where move/passing/tackle) and he expresses that on the field. I take my AMF and he should start from the center position off the ball, because I want him to press/mark the opposite DMF and then when we have the ball his interest is to play from the middle to the left side of the pitch. Which role is this? Not a Trequartista, he doesn't have a defensive duties. Not an Advanced Playmaker as I don't want him to be a playmaker.

I can think of putting him as Left AMF, but I have to hope that he can play in that position too, anyhow I don't want that to be his start position, putting him as Inside Forward from the left and cutting in + man marking the DMF is a bad fix done with this reverse engineering.

[robertcornell68]

For the second part, if you want to know what your players are doing, then watch the games.

Really? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of having a streamlined version?

That's pretty much a game breaker for me.

[themadsheep2001]

That's the point. Finally someone gets it.

I know the input and I see if the output is the expected one. Now the input is a mystery mark, I don't know what I'm instructing to my player.

I don't care what the description in few lines tells me, it can't never be enough. I can't go to Riquelme and tell him "You play as Enganche" and give him that 5 lines of description you're giving to me.

Da funk, that's the same thing if you see every slider too. You still have to watch the game. And you still know the input. Between the descripton and what you then tell the player you want to do.

Perhaps it's time I did a thread on this over the weekend, haven't written a piece for a while.

I take a player, I give him the different instructions, based on different concepts (how/when/where move/passing/tackle) and he expresses that on the field. I take my AMF and he should start from the center position off the ball, because I want him to press/mark the opposite DMF and then when we have the ball his interest is to play from the middle to the left side of the pitch. Which role is this? Not a Trequartista, he doesn't have a defensive duties. Not an Advanced Playmaker as I don't want him to be a playmaker

This doesn't make too much sense, there is still info missing. What is he supposed to do when he drifts? What is the rest of his goal? As it stands you could pick a number of roles to shut down the DM and also drift ( You could actually pull this off with a treq, if you had the right player, though it wouldn't be the optimum role, imo)

[Fond Foat]

With respect to Da Funk, this has been discussed and a reply given many times. This requires a change of your personal mental approach to managing in game. If you aren't going to do that, you will never get the beauty of this system. Really, the thread has turned into people who are willing to adapt and learn and those who are not.

[Da_Funk]

I did a whole thread about this in the 'understanding your tactic' thread I did. I used Neymar, Defoe and Adebayor as the Treq in a lone striker formation and each one of them played the role differently.

Question: Given at Treq description given, do you think it is logic to give that role to Defoe and Adebayor? Which attributes were highlighted? Can we say that it was a smart decision by a manager according to real football concepts? And how did they perform in the end?

[BiggusD]

Its not as black and white as that. The player will follow instructions, to a point, but no player is a robot and should do exactly as you tell them at every minute of the game. At some point the player has to make decisions on his own. Would you seriously expect Adebayor, Defoe and Neymar to play the same way?

For the second part, if you want to know what your players are doing, then watch the games.

This is a particularly important point for me, as I have opted for a fluid, player-decision-centered philisophy since FM11. That is what I feel football is like; more about the players than the manager.

Basically, if all 11 players on my team makes the correct decision every time in all matches, I will win them all. And yes I believe there is a correct decision to be made in every single circumstance.

In reality (and in FM) it is impossible to play such a match, of course. Football is very much about the mistakes and the wrong decisions.

The tactics I made for FM11, 12 and 13 were all very symmetrical. I currently have three DC-D, two MC-D, two WMRL-S, two DLF-A and a Trequartista in a 343. Yet, my main left winger is a right-footed quick playmaker type and my right winger is a right-footed classic winger type. My left DLF-A is often a quick, small striker while the right is a big target-man type. The first few seasons I split the two midfielders into one muscle-man while the other was more creative (now I have gotten well-rounded midfielders). My central defender is the quickest one. But the roles and duties of these pairings are exactly the same.

Yet, the way they play in those roles are very different. It is not necessary for me to set the left winger as an inside forward or a playmaker winger or whatever. He plays like that anyway. I don't have to set the right winger-type as a W-A. He goes to the byline and crosses several times every game he plays. Usually, my team aims high balls at the right striker without me setting him as a TM, and the trequartista plays the quick left striker through more often than the slower right striker. And yes the quicker and often smaller central defender sweeps up without me setting him as Cover.

This is perhaps why I am so sceptical towards the stronger "pre-programming" of the player positions that apparently is the case in FM14.

[YKW]

Yet, the way they play in those roles are very different. It is not necessary for me to set the left winger as an inside forward or a playmaker winger or whatever. He plays like that anyway. I don't have to set the right winger-type as a W-A. He goes to the byline and crosses several times every game he plays. Usually, my team aims high balls at the right striker without me setting him as a TM, and the trequartista plays the quick left striker through more often than the slower right striker. And yes the quicker and often smaller central defender sweeps up without me setting him as Cover.

Could this be explained by your highlight settings? Anything other than full would be biased to showing you those successful events. For example, maybe your team DOES actually aim long balls towards a different striker, but the defence heads it away and it is not a highlight worthy event? Agree with you in principle though.

[Da_Funk]

With respect to Da Funk, this has been discussed and a reply given many times. This requires a change of your personal mental approach to managing in game. If you aren't going to do that, you will never get the beauty of this system. Really, the thread has turned into people who are willing to adapt and learn and those who are not.

I'm not crying over "bring back sliders", I'm just discussing the difference between system and trying to point out the cons of the new one. If you take any critic or analysis with a "well, maybe this is lacking here and that's where we should think about how to improve/expand" maybe you'll understand some different point of view better. I'm not in a war against roles, why should someone who says "sliders were something" should be turned and saw as a witch, regardless of what is writing. Instead of avoiding every time my questions and my examples, why don't you try to give an answer? How'd you set a player like that for example? And first of all CAN you set a player like that?

"You could pick a number of roles to shut down the DM and also drift" is not an answer, you have to say which roles do I have to use, how I can do that in the game.

"How can I have a playmaker in my team?" "Well, there are some roles written there in the game where you could set the playmaker somehow".

"How can I have a target man with through balls focused on him?" "well there are some settings there where you set the target man and the players do that. It is in the game."

I mean, is this the type of support and discussion you want? I don't think these kind of answer have a sufficient level of detail and informations, they are not answers to give.

If you avoid this thing you may miss an opportunity to see that maybe, MAYBE, regarding that topic, regarding that tactic aspect, regarding possibilities given to the user, there's something to think about. And maybe we, together, may have one silly idea that can improve the game.

All of a sudden

This doesn't make too much sense, there is still info missing. What is he supposed to do when he drifts? What is the rest of his goal? As it stands you could pick a number of roles to shut down the DM and also drift ( You could actually pull this off with a treq, if you had the right player, though it wouldn't be the optimum role, imo)

You are crying out about "doesn't make too much sense, missing infos", do you see that It's not me or another crying about micromanaging now.

It's just the very beginning of the process of setting a player on the pitch. And you all are making this when shaping a tactic.

My example is very simple, still something simple that you can't do.

And you want to know more, it's not that you're telling me "it's not something important, you should not want that, you should not want to do that, it's unrealistic, it's a micromanagement instruction where you want your player staying in that 3 meters of grass". I said something with a meaning.

So what is he supposed to do when he drifts? Exploit space with forward runs? Receive the ball and dribble aiming at the flank? Go for crosses? Make few touches and cutting back inside to shot? Something that maybe you can already do in FM or maybe not? Think yourself.

You can't tell me that Trequartista can do that, by definition the Trequartista doesn't have defensive duties and, from the descriptions given, I imagine a Trequartista even with some pressing button doesn't have the same defensive awareness of other roles.

How many roles do we have as AMF? How do you rank them according to "defensive awareness/duties"? Maybe there's another one missing or that has a meaning to be introduced?

[BiggusD]

Could this be explained by your highlight settings? Anything other than full would be biased to showing you those successful events. For example, maybe your team DOES actually aim long balls towards a different striker, but the defence heads it away and it is not a highlight worthy event? Agree with you in principle though.

Yes I watch extended. I am not really interested in failed attempts, though. They are of no actual statistical consequence. Here's my reasoning:

I could of course have set the left striker to AF-A and the right striker to W-A. This would presumably increase the number of times that the winger crossed from the byline and the striker initiated runs behind the defenders, respectively. However, it does not follow that this would result in more goals for the team. Since the WM-S and DLF-A are more general settings (they have fewer instructions set to "often"), they will statistically speaking contribute to a wider variety of chance creation. Since all of the R/S/O instructions are set to Sometimes for a WM-S, the times he do go to the byline and cross this is generated by exceptional play rather than routine - hence I believe that the chance of scoring on such an occasion is higher. The logic is then that forcing more such occasions do not result in a higher number of big chances but rather a higher number of smaller chances - while the big chances will remain virtually unchanged either way. I think it is fairly obvious for everyone that at the very least the big chance creation from channeling play forcefully down the wings do not increase linearily compared to mixed attacking play with wide players allowed to do so but not given that as their main (or indeed only) function in the team.

Thus, the benefit of increasing the base number of crosses must be balanced toward the types of chances the team miss out on when player choice is narrowed down. My conclusion is that the scales tip in favour of mixed play and mixed instructions, and universalists rather than specialists.

[themadsheep2001]

I'm not crying over "bring back sliders", I'm just discussing the difference between system and trying to point out the cons of the new one. If you take any critic or analysis with a "well, maybe this is lacking here and that's where we should think about how to improve/expand" maybe you'll understand some different point of view better. I'm not in a war against roles, why should someone who says "sliders were something" should be turned and saw as a witch, regardless of what is writing. Instead of avoiding every time my questions and my examples, why don't you try to give an answer? How'd you set a player like that for example? And first of all CAN you set a player like that?

"You could pick a number of roles to shut down the DM and also drift" is not an answer, you have to say which roles do I have to use, how I can do that in the game.

"How can I have a playmaker in my team?" "Well, there are some roles written there in the game where you could set the playmaker somehow".

"How can I have a target man with through balls focused on him?" "well there are some settings there where you set the target man and the players do that. It is in the game."

I mean, is this the type of support and discussion you want? I don't think these kind of answer have a sufficient level of detail and informations, they are not answers to give.

If you avoid this thing you may miss an opportunity to see that maybe, MAYBE, regarding that topic, regarding that tactic aspect, regarding possibilities given to the user, there's something to think about. And maybe we, together, may have one silly idea that can improve the game.

All of a sudden

You are crying out about "doesn't make too much sense, missing infos", do you see that It's not me or another crying about micromanaging now.

It's just the very beginning of the process of setting a player on the pitch. And you all are making this when shaping a tactic.

My example is very simple, still something simple that you can't do.

And you want to know more, it's not that you're telling me "it's not something important, you should not want that, you should not want to do that, it's unrealistic, it's a micromanagement instruction where you want your player staying in that 3 meters of grass". I said something with a meaning.

So what is he supposed to do when he drifts? Exploit space with forward runs? Receive the ball and dribble aiming at the flank? Go for crosses? Make few touches and cutting back inside to shot? Something that maybe you can already do in FM or maybe not? Think yourself.

You can't tell me that Trequartista can do that, by definition the Trequartista doesn't have defensive duties and, from the descriptions given, I imagine a Trequartista even with some pressing button doesn't have the same defensive awareness of other roles.

How many roles do we have as AMF? How do you rank them according to "defensive awareness/duties"? Maybe there's another one missing or that has a meaning to be introduced?

You are going to have to start again, because you are shifting the argument and talking round the point.

1) What is it exactly you want you player to do, apart from shut down the DMF and drift laterally? That is the information I'm asking from you, not the game. It's a pretty straight question. It's a basic question I ask when I set up any shape/style/role

2) Have you actually used at high energy player in a treq role? the role does not have no defensive duties, but significantly less. But a high energy player interprets it differently, like I said you can actually get someone (I did it with Rooney) playing the treq role and putting a good defensive shift in. It's just not an optimum thing to do

"You could pick a number of roles to shut down the DM and also drift" is not an answer, you have to say which roles do I have to use, how I can do that in the game

Actually, you are wrong on this, that is an answer, because your current brief on what you want him to do is very broad ( drift and shut down the DM = close down/mark the DMC + move into channels, perhaps some roaming, and of course have a look at the player im using).

[themadsheep2001]

And this encapsulates the entire point perfectly. Knowing x, y and z about a Role is nice, but it isn't conclusive.

We don't homogenise players by sticking them in Roles - their attributes and PPMs fundamentally influence their interpretation of the Role.

This isn't speculation - it is a fact.

The seemingly perpetual circular argument that we need to know everything in order to do anything holds no water whatsoever.

I'm seeing no variability in the arguments for the need to see the sliders, just increasingly peculiar analogies.

Indeed, it's all just roundabout points now. Think too many people ignore the bold though.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah this is really going round and round getting nowhere really. Roles are what you would like a player to try and achieve, how well or badly they achieve that is down to the player and the situation the player finds himself in. Not even the sliders gave you the control some seem to attribute to them, they perhaps however did give a false impression that they did due to the micro management you could go through. Ultimately tho, the player and situation will always be more important than the role.

[YKW]

And this encapsulates the entire point perfectly. Knowing x, y and z about a Role is nice, but it isn't conclusive.

We don't homogenise players by sticking them in Roles - their attributes and PPMs fundamentally influence their interpretation of the Role.

This isn't speculation - it is a fact.

The seemingly perpetual circular argument that we need to know everything in order to do anything holds no water whatsoever.

I'm seeing no variability in the arguments for the need to see the sliders, just increasingly peculiar analogies.

With all due respect, the bolded is a good example of why the discussion is perhaps reaching it's natural end. You are just exaggerating people's opinions to the point of them sounding ridiculous, a totally unnecessary tactic if you are correct in your position.

In terms of the lack of variability of arguments, as far as I can see you haven't really responded to many of the ones that do exist, for example the debate about whether or not a manager knows what he instructs his players to do, or to what extent players actually fulfill instructions versus being bought for what they already do. I also can't see any posts by you which respond to the idea of some sort of slider-equivalent tactical feedback system. Sorry if I am wrong here.

In terms of the italics, it perfectly demonstrates the weakness of the system - that the lines between manager instructions, tactical roles, and player preferences have become far too blurred, especially from the point of realism. Just to save my opposition from saying it, I don't believe that changing a slider a notch or two is a realistic system, but it is infinitely more realistic that not being sure what you have told your players to do.

There are many uncertain factors in football, but the instructions the manager gives his players are NOT one of those factors.

Not a circular argument, not wishing I could exploit the game, not even asking for the sliders back, it's just a fair and as yet unanswered point.

[milnerpoint]

The instructions are very clear in the game. Its spelt out for you what each role is, and what it is you will be asking the player to do, you dont need to have this quantified with a slider set to a numerical value to understand what your asking the player to achieve. The description tells you everything you need to know about what ROLE your asking the player to perform, the attributes and situation then determine how well or badly the player then follows those instructions.

There are no grey areas as long as you stop thinking about a players width, mentality, crossing ect, as a slider and more in terms of, "cross more" or "cross less".

[YKW]

Yeah this is really going round and round getting nowhere really. Roles are what you would like a player to try and achieve, how well or badly they achieve that is down to the player and the situation the player finds himself in. Not even the sliders gave you the control some seem to attribute to them, they perhaps however did give a false impression that they did due to the micro management you could go through. Ultimately tho, the player and situation will always be more important than the role.

You obviously like the new system, which is great! I'm not dead set on this being the wrong way to go, so I was wondering if you have had any ideas about how you would develop the current system over the next few years? I don't know if you read my tactical assessment idea, but would you be for or against some kind of screen which gave the user some greater idea of how their tactic is likely to work BEFORE actually seeing it in a match? For me this would solve the problem of not really knowing what I have told my players to do.