Hard-core Mode

[BiggusD]

What do people feel about the inclusion of a "hard-core mode" in the game? A tick-box in addition to the Attribute Masking and Use Real Players tick-boxes already in existence.

Here are my ideas what such an option could do:

* Turning off the search option and Player/Staff Search tools

* More extensive attribute masking

* Scout report cards only including facts and statistics, not an actual evaluation

* Scouts must see an actual match with a player to "unlock" 15> and <6 attributes

* More matches needed to unlock the rest of the attributes, depending on scout skill

* "New-at-the-club" and "starting reputation" penalties on (turned off without it)

* More childish (i.e realistic) players complaining about stuff. More tabloid media. More hysterical fans.

* Tactical familiarity rising much slower but not resetting every season

* Holiday mode off

* DoF is your boss

[le_crab]

Agree holiday mode should be banished from the game what's the point of managing a team if your gonna p*** off on holiday.

[Ackter]

Because, amazingly, people enjoy playing the game in different ways. It's always been one of the most important parts of FM.

[Erimus1876]

Hardcore mode? Yes please.

Its years overdue.

[endtime]

No holiday is a bad idea, some leagues have a 4-month winter break.

[LilSaint]

* Scout report cards only including facts and statistics, not an actual evaluation

* More childish (i.e realistic) players complaining about stuff. More tabloid media. More hysterical fans.

a 100 times yes.

[Kriss]

Agree in principal though holiday mode should be enabled if it doesn't involve missing matches.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

Agree with what you've said about scouting, it really does annoy me that a scout can come back to you with a full attribute breakdown straight away having never watched them.

Also the tactical familiarity, can't understand why my team would forget how to play a basic 4-4-2 when it's been a standard formation in English football for decades.

I did question what the point in taking holidays was a while ago on here and although i wouldn't holiday myself people did point out some good reasons for using them.

[jozza800]

I would remove visible player values.

In fact I think i'd go as far as removing them from the normal version of the game. It would go a long to minimizing a lot of the frustration players have with transfer fees.

[Ackter]

The scouting thing should just be how the game works tbh.

Not hard-mode specific.

[RTHerringbone]

I would remove visible player values.

In fact I think i'd go as far as removing them from the normal version of the game. It would go a long to minimizing a lot of the frustration players have with transfer fees.

I'd go along with this, and I'd lose attribute visibility altogether.

Scout Reports should detail how and where a player plays, PPMs etc. No 1-20 scale on any attribute to refer to, to make your own opinion.

If we're losing sliders, why not lose attributes? Seriously - if we're going to embrace the Role and Duty idea fully, let's go the whole hog and lose attributes.

[BiggusD]

The scouting thing should just be how the game works tbh.

Not hard-mode specific.

I want to distinguish between a hard-mode and a hard-core mode. I was thinking more in the line of Fallout New Vegas's Hardcore mode which enabled the need to eat and drink, and weight on ammo. The hardcore-mode in UFO: Enemy Unknown disabled the savegames. While these options made the games a bit harder, the main point was to change the overall gameplay. In both games enabling those options forced you to be more careful and planning ahead.

In FM, I think a hardcore mode should make the gameplay more unforgiving, more "realistic" while giving us a new challenge. It could even extend to the tactics, disabling extreme tactical changes during a match, for instance.

When hearing "hard mode" (if that was what you intended to say) I am thinking something like skewing advantages and disadvantages in the human player's disfavour like you see in Civilization and many other games. In Skyrim it just increases the amount of damage the enemies give for each strike. It makes it more difficult yes but not in the way I'd like; spawning 2x as many enemies who deals 2x damage doesn't really change the gameplay.

[Erimus1876]

I'd go along with this, and I'd lose attribute visibility altogether.

Scout Reports should detail how and where a player plays, PPMs etc. No 1-20 scale on any attribute to refer to, to make your own opinion.

If we're losing sliders, why not lose attributes? Seriously - if we're going to embrace the Role and Duty idea fully, let's go the whole hog and lose attributes.

You can do that in FM13 with the aid of this mod: http://footballvideogames.weebly.com/miscellaneous-fm13-downloads.html

But I agree, an official feature or option to play without visible attributes would be nice.

[HUNT3R]

I'd love the game to more realistic or "hardcore" whether it's an optional tick-box or part of the normal game. Scouting, for one thing, is in desperate need of an overhaul.

[HUNT3R]

I want to distinguish between a hard-mode and a hard-core mode. I was thinking more in the line of Fallout New Vegas's Hardcore mode which enabled the need to eat and drink, and weight on ammo. The hardcore-mode in UFO: Enemy Unknown disabled the savegames. While these options made the games a bit harder, the main point was to change the overall gameplay. In both games enabling those options forced you to be more careful and planning ahead.

In FM, I think a hardcore mode should make the gameplay more unforgiving, more "realistic" while giving us a new challenge. It could even extend to the tactics, disabling extreme tactical changes during a match, for instance.

When hearing "hard mode" (if that was what you intended to say) I am thinking something like skewing advantages and disadvantages in the human player's disfavour like you see in Civilization and many other games. In Skyrim it just increases the amount of damage the enemies give for each strike. It makes it more difficult yes but not in the way I'd like; spawning 2x as many enemies who deals 2x damage doesn't really change the gameplay.

The thing with your examples is that they are "easy" to implement. Changing attribute masking, scouting etc to a more hardcore level will take a lot of time to put into the game and to balance properly. Too much work for a feature that only a minority will use. That's the way that I see games companies view these things. Look at the cockpit view being discarded for Grid 2 because only 5% of people use it.

I'd love this mode and hopefully a lot of people will be vocal about it, but us as a forum are in the minority,

The scouting thing should just be how the game works tbh.

Not hard-mode specific.

I agree 100%

[Ackter]

I want to distinguish between a hard-mode and a hard-core mode. I was thinking more in the line of Fallout New Vegas's Hardcore mode which enabled the need to eat and drink, and weight on ammo. The hardcore-mode in UFO: Enemy Unknown disabled the savegames. While these options made the games a bit harder, the main point was to change the overall gameplay. In both games enabling those options forced you to be more careful and planning ahead.

In FM, I think a hardcore mode should make the gameplay more unforgiving, more "realistic" while giving us a new challenge. It could even extend to the tactics, disabling extreme tactical changes during a match, for instance.

When hearing "hard mode" (if that was what you intended to say) I am thinking something like skewing advantages and disadvantages in the human player's disfavour like you see in Civilization and many other games. In Skyrim it just increases the amount of damage the enemies give for each strike. It makes it more difficult yes but not in the way I'd like; spawning 2x as many enemies who deals 2x damage doesn't really change the gameplay.

Yeah, it was just a semantic mix up.

[Ackter]

Also, I'm amazed Kriss didn't come in here proclaiming that LLM was hardcore mode

[nickdc]

Yes. A lot of the suggestions can be self-imposed. But it would be a step in the right direction.

[HUNT3R]

It could even extend to the tactics, disabling extreme tactical changes during a match, for instance.

By the way... I love this idea. It's something I've been thinking about for a while too. I don't agree with you 100% though. It should be possible to make major changes. The changes shouldn't happen instantly though as it takes a while for the message about your changes to spread around the field. I remember Mancini making big changes (last year?) changing to a back three mid-game and re-organising the players and where they were supposed to play. It took quite a while to sort out and while that was happening, players looked confused and a few were out of position, not sure where to be. That's what I would want in the game if I decide to make a major change.

Also, I'm amazed Kriss didn't come in here proclaiming that LLM was hardcore mode

Well, it is in a way, but that isn't why we do it

[QWERTYOP]

Holiday can come in useful for certain things. Especially if you're unemployed. Very important part of the game. As for a "hardcore" mode, I consider FM13 to have been a "hardcore" version within itself! There's really no need for it. You can make your FM save as tough or as relatively easy as you like by which job you decide to take. Leaving so many things up to and in the hands of the user is one of FM's great strengths.

[MAtty__B]

I'd like to see more disagreement on player abilities. An example is that 1 scout see's the guy as being 5 star potential, the other guy see's him as being crap. I find that once you get a staff member with good enough abilities then he's very very rarely wrong about a player.

[Federico]

Because, amazingly, people enjoy playing the game in different ways. It's always been one of the most important parts of FM.

True. In example I would really love to play my game without press conferences. Unfortunately it seems this chance won't ever be given.

[Ackter]

Send your assistant in the Staff Responsibilities.

I've only ever attended half a dozen press conferences since they were introduced.

[hungoth]

I think the game is hard to master as it is, and it seems there're many players who have hard times mastering the game to the point they need any kind of hard mode. For me different clubs in different leagues are enough to choose my challenge.

I would remove search players and rely on scouts only though, but what's the point when you don't have to use it?

Scouting needs improvement regardless.

[Federico]

Send your assistant in the Staff Responsibilities.

I've only ever attended half a dozen press conferences since they were introduced.

I do that any now and then, for matches I don't care too much about. It happens he is not so "reliable" when answering. Low trust.

[Ackter]

Hire someone better?

I approach hiring an assistant as if I were hiring someone to do my job.

Then get him to do my job.

[tylerazevedo]

I holiday through every game. It allows me to be a director of football rather than a coach. Guess what, I've still won the CL many times over the course of my career.

[QWERTYOP]

True. In example I would really love to play my game without press conferences. Unfortunately it seems this chance won't ever be given.

Nor should it. The game is called Football Manager, and press conferences are part of life for every football manager. Another thing, most RL football managers say they find press conferences boring too.

[Ackter]

Surely you mean that you've provided the players & tactical guidance to help your assistant manager(s) to win the Champions League.

I call him my manager. It's only the game that calls him my assistant.

[BiggusD]

I do that any now and then, for matches I don't care too much about. It happens he is not so "reliable" when answering. Low trust.

Yeah, I have seen that some of his answers are really dumb. On the other hand, I tried the press conferences feature a few times when it came, then handed it to my assistant. To begin with the consequences were dire, but SI toned it down more and more and now I hardly notice it's there. Sometimes strange things happen; for instance a sudden drop in a player's morale or a strange indifference towards a match seen in most of the team. It could be that these strange incidents could have been avoided by mastering press conferences, or it could be something else. There are a lot of random factors in the game, and adding another to the list won't make much of a difference - so no, unreliable answers from the assistant is not worth going through the mind-numbingly boring, tedious and quite unnecessary press conferences. Not in the game, and not in real life either. Not to me, at least.

[Validicus]

OP, that's the kind of mode which would get me hooked on the game all over again. Would love to see something like that introduced one day.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

Agree in principle though it would probably raise the amount of unnecessary elitist attitude in the forums.

[Sideshow Robbie Earle]

Rather than "unlocking" attributes I'd rather see the a wide range of possible attributes, that then get narrowed down as you scout / watch a player more. For example the first time a scout watches a player the player's profile will show a 5 or 6 wide band of possibilities for each attribute e.g Long Shots 11-16, that then gets narrowed down as the player is watched more often. Maybe it never gets down to just 1 point until you sign him, so you're taking a bit of a chance.

If you send a scout to watch a player specifically then the possible range is narrowed down more quickly, but other players in that game also have their range narrowed as the scout forms a view and can report back on them as well. Any player that catches the eye of the scout in the game, so that he'd recommend them to you, gets the same reduction as the initial target because obviously they'll be under greater scrutiny if they look useful. The better the scout the quicker the fog clears, and there could also be the possibility that the scout is wrong, so there's more emphasis on watching potential signings yourself.

Assuming this fading Fog-of-War system was in place I'd also like to have a choice of games to send myself to or watch on TV (although not actually have to watch) and as a result get a clearer picture of the abilities of those players - so their range of possibilities for each attribute narrows. The choice of games to attend in person could depend on travel distances involved, while you could watch any televised game.

I also definitely agree on the tactical awareness suggestion - it's annoying to have very low squad turnover in a close season yet find that the whole squad has forgotten how to play last season's system.

And don't forget that Holiday Mode alleviates some of the tedium when you're between jobs. If I'm sacked or resign I don't always jump on (or have the chance to) the first opportunity that presents itself. I wouldn't fancy clicking through a few months of game play.

[Babak G]

Had no idea people actually used holiday mode to play the game and enjoy it. Thought they did it on experimental saves, etc...

[upthetoon]

Rather than "unlocking" attributes I'd rather see the a wide range of possible attributes, that then get narrowed down as you scout / watch a player more. For example the first time a scout watches a player the player's profile will show a 5 or 6 wide band of possibilities for each attribute e.g Long Shots 11-16, that then gets narrowed down as the player is watched more often. Maybe it never gets down to just 1 point until you sign him, so you're taking a bit of a chance.

If you send a scout to watch a player specifically then the possible range is narrowed down more quickly, but other players in that game also have their range narrowed as the scout forms a view and can report back on them as well. Any player that catches the eye of the scout in the game, so that he'd recommend them to you, gets the same reduction as the initial target because obviously they'll be under greater scrutiny if they look useful. The better the scout the quicker the fog clears, and there could also be the possibility that the scout is wrong, so there's more emphasis on watching potential signings yourself.

Assuming this fading Fog-of-War system was in place I'd also like to have a choice of games to send myself to or watch on TV (although not actually have to watch) and as a result get a clearer picture of the abilities of those players - so their range of possibilities for each attribute narrows. The choice of games to attend in person could depend on travel distances involved, while you could watch any televised game.

i like this idea. right now, its impossible to go wrong with signings. while in real life there are situations where a high fee signing turns out to be a flop. this game is too attribute focused such that even if there is a player on fire in the dutch league but has rubbish stats, we will never go and try for him as his stats are not world class in our eyes.

so we barely make failures.

[Just-Wool]

I think the problem isn't exactly the stats you see, it's the stats you don't see that are messed up. Especially the potential abilities and adaptability stats.

PA I think should not just be a static arbitrary number, I think it should have 2 figures. One figure being the PA at his existing club and the other being the PA at the club(s) that are looking to sign him, this being based on the facilities, coaches and resources of the buying club. More importantly I think it should be tied with adaptability as well. Good adaptability the more likely your PA would go up with the facilities you have, bad adaptability and the PA would stay the same but he'd play like his CA would be lower than it is. Something like that.

You would then have the potential for a guy with awful stats to improve to the level you require, or for a guy who is a world beater in Spain to be a flop in England. Adaptability is really not a very good stat at the moment as it seems like all it does is make the guy whine about being there. As long as you keep winning, his morale is usually good enough to ride out until he's happy.

[soccer.joel]

I think the problem isn't exactly the stats you see, it's the stats you don't see that are messed up. Especially the potential abilities and adaptability stats.

PA I think should not just be a static arbitrary number, I think it should have 2 figures. One figure being the PA at his existing club and the other being the PA at the club(s) that are looking to sign him, this being based on the facilities, coaches and resources of the buying club. More importantly I think it should be tied with adaptability as well. Good adaptability the more likely your PA would go up with the facilities you have, bad adaptability and the PA would stay the same but he'd play like his CA would be lower than it is. Something like that.

You would then have the potential for a guy with awful stats to improve to the level you require, or for a guy who is a world beater in Spain to be a flop in England. Adaptability is really not a very good stat at the moment as it seems like all it does is make the guy whine about being there. As long as you keep winning, his morale is usually good enough to ride out until he's happy.

But PA is the max a player can get too not what the player always will. The stars are only estimates with distortion from scouts abilities

[Bobble2002]

the problem with hiding all attributes is then you do not have a way of knowing whether a player is any use or not .

Just a scouts report saying he is great does not mean much as often i have had reports saying a player would be a fantastic addition but their attributes show he is seriously only average . The scouting would need a serious make over to make it realistic . Plus even watching a player play for another team before trying to buy him often does not tell you much about him whatsoever .

[Ackter]

Had no idea people actually used holiday mode to play the game and enjoy it. Thought they did it on experimental saves, etc...

As the game has slowed down, many of us have adopted it to speed up the experience.

[BiggusD]

I use holiday extensively myself; between matches, off-season and pre-season after I have finished signing and selling players. I never play friendlies myself (after having settled on a tactic). I just thought that the Hard-Core mode should have no "short-cuts". Of course, I was envisioning the Hard-Core Mode tick-box having sub-tickboxes.

[upthetoon]

I think the problem isn't exactly the stats you see, it's the stats you don't see that are messed up. Especially the potential abilities and adaptability stats.

PA I think should not just be a static arbitrary number, I think it should have 2 figures. One figure being the PA at his existing club and the other being the PA at the club(s) that are looking to sign him, this being based on the facilities, coaches and resources of the buying club. More importantly I think it should be tied with adaptability as well. Good adaptability the more likely your PA would go up with the facilities you have, bad adaptability and the PA would stay the same but he'd play like his CA would be lower than it is. Something like that.

You would then have the potential for a guy with awful stats to improve to the level you require, or for a guy who is a world beater in Spain to be a flop in England. Adaptability is really not a very good stat at the moment as it seems like all it does is make the guy whine about being there. As long as you keep winning, his morale is usually good enough to ride out until he's happy.

this is a very good suggestion. right now, the statistics are just way too static. your suggestion will make it more dynamic and if the person has very low adaptibility then maybe even with good stats he will be a flop. and we also have a chance of signing in-form players in other league to come join the bigger clubs in a bigger league and has a chance to turn out to be world class.

this will has us, consistently using the scouting and watching out for players in other nations league who might turn out to be very good even though he has poor stats.

[wazza]

What do people feel about the inclusion of a "hard-core mode" in the game? A tick-box in addition to the Attribute Masking and Use Real Players tick-boxes already in existence.

Here are my ideas what such an option could do:

* Turning off the search option and Player/Staff Search tools

* More extensive attribute masking

* Scout report cards only including facts and statistics, not an actual evaluation

* Scouts must see an actual match with a player to "unlock" 15> and <6 attributes

* More matches needed to unlock the rest of the attributes, depending on scout skill

* "New-at-the-club" and "starting reputation" penalties on (turned off without it)

* More childish (i.e realistic) players complaining about stuff. More tabloid media. More hysterical fans.

* Tactical familiarity rising much slower but not resetting every season

* Holiday mode off

* DoF is your boss

1) The search should only include for well known players/staff who are familiar to everyone - with the scouts unlocking the others through searches, this would make the game harder and more realistic

2) As above the more you scout the more attributes are released except for better known players familiar to everyone

3) Disagree once the scout has seen the report realistically they will offer evaluation - to make this realistic this could be to his own scouting ratings ie if he ws a poor scout his judgement may be worse than a scout who is better

4) Disagree the scout will still see the player and offer evaluation

5) Keep these on to make the game harder and staff players not listening to you as our reputation sucks

6) Agree completely

7) Agree however the tactics would need to be re-set but ONLY if you have signed new players as they wouldn't know the system

8) Agree

9) Agree - however the chairman is still your boss and employed by the chairman- the manager does not hire a DOF, these could be brought in by the chariman espcecially if you are struggling and they can then be who you report to and interfere with team selections and transfers

Overall would be good with the above tweaks

[Babak G]

As the game has slowed down, many of us have adopted it to speed up the experience.

I understand during the off-season and maybe even between games but through actual seasons?

[Ackter]

Through the games. I'm not interested in what goes on the pitch any more. I play every day in between, though.

[Just-Wool]

this is a very good suggestion. right now, the statistics are just way too static. your suggestion will make it more dynamic and if the person has very low adaptibility then maybe even with good stats he will be a flop. and we also have a chance of signing in-form players in other league to come join the bigger clubs in a bigger league and has a chance to turn out to be world class.

this will has us, consistently using the scouting and watching out for players in other nations league who might turn out to be very good even though he has poor stats.

That was my thought process as well. I wouldn't say increase the PA drastically I should add, there has to be some element of innate talent v coaching present. I'm sure that the folks over at SI would be able to find a happy balance though.

[darren1983]

Holiday mode is essential for most of the challenges in the challenges forum so would hate to lose it.

[BiggusD]

Any other ideas for what a Hard-Core Mode could include (or take away)?

[Babak G]

Through the games. I'm not interested in what goes on the pitch any more. I play every day in between, though.

So you holiday through matches with only your starting tactic set in stone? And leave it to the assistant to manage things during the match? Very interesting.

[Ackter]

So you holiday through matches with only your starting tactic set in stone? And leave it to the assistant to manage things during the match? Very interesting.

Starting tactic and usually team selection as well.

[siambluebird]

100% for tougher scouting and longer scouting periods, and surely it is time to have the choice to remove all attribute numbers form the game. You should have to rely on staff, stats, and match performance to analyse a player.