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RTHerringbone

FM14 - New Tactical Elements

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Imagine you set your Defensive Line to say notch 6, 10 or 14 on FM13, but you face a side that plays Defensive, Standard or Overload - does your Defensive Line not need to dynamically adjust to those alternate Strategies?

Does setting a Defensive Line of 10 with a Slider do so irrespective of the intent of the opposition? Surely it can't be the case? If it was, you'd have an inherent advantage.

Sorry but this is not an answer, you're clutching at straws here, if setting a d-line of 10 is *not realistic*, then not knowing where your defensive line is (or where it should be) when you start a game or after a shout is simply crazy and add unnecessary randomness to the game.

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Sorry but this is not an answer, you're clutching at straws here, if setting a d-line of 10 is *not realistic*, then not knowing where your defensive line is (or where it should be) when you start a game or after a shout is simply crazy and add unnecessary randomness to the game.

Where did I mention realism?

The notion of setting a defensive line (which you earlier in this very thread accepted had three variants - high, medium and low block) is all well and good, and can be imagined as penalty area, midway between penalty area and half way, and half way respectively.

However, that defensive line in football, whether FM or real life adjusts dynamically to the intent and set up of the opposition.

Football is not a static game where you set parameter x, y and z and the game operates within those confines.

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Where did I mention realism?

The notion of setting a defensive line (which you earlier in this very thread accepted had three variants - high, medium and low block) is all well and good, and can be imagined as penalty area, midway between penalty area and half way, and half way respectively.

However, that defensive line in football, whether FM or real life adjusts dynamically to the intent and set up of the opposition.

Football is not a static game where you set parameter x, y and z and the game operates within those confines.

You're wrong, managers always set parameters like defensive line, tempo etc...being able to apply these settings is a different story, sometimes you're successful, sometimes you're not; but here you (the manager) simply don't know what you're doing, just dicing.

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Having played a bit earlier i think its removing all the tactics sliders has taken away some of my interest. I was awful with them anyway but it was nice to know exactly how you were set up.

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I won't be playing the demo but I fear that SI's goal to make the game closer to reality with every new release will result in taking the fun of it. Not everyone wants to play this game with maximum levels of detail and attention. And what I mean doesn't fit in the "play FMC instead" response.

As many other people, I really enjoy the game in long-term saves. This means I go through season fairly quickly and I don't waste much time with polishing my tactics, adapting it to the opposition before every match, or using in-game shouts.

I'm not sure - as I haven't seen it - how I'll be able to play the game my way without the sliders system. I'm not saying it's bad they are gone, I'm saying it's bad if the new system can't keep the game as enjoyable as it was with sliders.

The theory that sliders don't apply to real life is false IMO. Don't you rate albums, movies, games or restaurants with a numerical system? So why won't you rate players? I can imagine a scout report from a professional scout in which he rates a certain player by using a template that that envolves grading his abilities, either by saying "good passer" or "passing: 7/10" is that really a big difference?

All this to say: I will start a save and use the same tactic I have used in older games. I want to see if I can reproduce the slider instructions I had with the new system. If I'm able to do that, then I'll be happy. If not, then I consider the end of sliders a downgrade.

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The notion of setting a defensive line (which you earlier in this very thread accepted had three variants - high, medium and low block) is all well and good, and can be imagined as penalty area, midway between penalty area and half way, and half way respectively.

This is how d-line pretty much works now in relation to your base strategy. Each base strategy (Contain -> Overload) has three defensive line variants (Standard / Drop Deeper / Push Higher), which are, respectively, medium, low and high block. However, they are relatively higher as you go up the strategies.

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I fear this is a dumbing down of the tactic system.

I have only played for a few hours so maybe I am missing something...I would like to attack and counter and I cant do both? This should have been a FM classic addition, I was not looking for less of control, I wanted more. I have no idea how far my line is, my tempo is etc etc. I have a rough idea, but I would like to know exactly, doesnt have to be sliders but it shouldnt be aesthetic shouts like this, its a baby version...please say theres more depth to the tactics in the full version?

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I fear this is a dumbing down of the tactic system.

I have only played for a few hours so maybe I am missing something...I would like to attack and counter and I cant do both? This should have been a FM classic addition, I was not looking for less of control, I wanted more. I have no idea how far my line is, my tempo is etc etc. I have a rough idea, but I would like to know exactly, doesnt have to be sliders but it shouldnt be aesthetic shouts like this, its a baby version...please say theres more depth to the tactics in the full version?

For me, the system is better because you have to trade off, which forces decisions away from slider minutiae and into real world managerial problems. Appreciate not everyone will agree with my preference though.

What is for sure is that new system is certainly not a dumbing down. It changes the focus and alters the decision making process. Those who are used to inch perfect control will have to adjust or die I'm afraid.

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This is how d-line pretty much works now in relation to your base strategy. Each base strategy (Contain -> Overload) has three defensive line variants (Standard / Drop Deeper / Push Higher), which are, respectively, medium, low and high block. However, they are relatively higher as you go up the strategies.

Probably worth mentioning you also have two extreme d-line variants as well, hassle and stand off opponents, which set a maximum and minimum d-line respectively. So that's five d-line possibilities per base strategy, plus variants of d-line settings if you go up or down a base strategy. I would be very surprised if you can't get your d-line behaving as you'd wish after a little trial and error.

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Probably worth mentioning you also have two extreme d-line variants as well, hassle and stand off opponents, which set a maximum and minimum d-line respectively. So that's five d-line possibilities per base strategy, plus variants of d-line settings if you go up or down a base strategy. I would be very surprised if you can't get your d-line behaving as you'd wish after a little trial and error.

So Hassle is a higher line and stand off sits deeper? And the question is, how high/deep does it go?

My first instinct would be Hassle pushes up because it would include pressing opponents in their halves.

I'll have an keep an eye on Stand Off instructions as that's what I usually use, partially as I felt pressing drew too many people out of position.

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So Hassle is a higher line and stand off sits deeper? And the question is, how high/deep does it go?

In sliderese, Hassle = 20 d-line, 20 closing down, stand off = 1 d-line, 1 closing down. If you want players to hold position, drop deeper reduces the d-line and closing down by 5 (aggressive base strategies), 3 (standard base strategies), or 1 (cautious base strategies). Push higher does the same in reverse.

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My memory's going! There are two more defensive line settings as well, which are new for FM14, Much Higher and Much Deeper defensive line. That makes 7 different d-line settings per base strategy.

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I fear this is a dumbing down of the tactic system.

I have only played for a few hours so maybe I am missing something...I would like to attack and counter and I cant do both? This should have been a FM classic addition, I was not looking for less of control, I wanted more. I have no idea how far my line is, my tempo is etc etc. I have a rough idea, but I would like to know exactly, doesnt have to be sliders but it shouldnt be aesthetic shouts like this, its a baby version...please say theres more depth to the tactics in the full version?

Seriously if people are going to believe that this new system is a dumbing down of the tactical interface because they can't move a notch a couple of places, but instead have to consider what instructions to give players in individual roles, the forums will be even more tedious this year, Why can't you play attacking counter attacking football? I achieved that in about 2 minutes!

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You're wrong, managers always set parameters like defensive line, tempo etc...being able to apply these settings is a different story, sometimes you're successful, sometimes you're not; but here you (the manager) simply don't know what you're doing, just dicing.

And there it is again; "you're wrong". Yes, we all agree that managers set a preference for where they would like their d-line to be, but surely you must know that the d-line shifts according to the opposition. Why are you trying to say you can set the d-line depth where you want it in FM14? I can.

I would like to add that you shouldn't say that people in general do not know what they are doing, but that you do not know what you are doing. I feel quite comfortable with this new system and I know what I am doing. I just played 5 games on full match replay, and with some slight adjustments to shouts I have the back 4 and the DM behaving how I would like them to behave.

You are used to sliders, I understand that, but you are not used to this system. How about learning and making it work for you?

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And there it is again; "you're wrong". Yes, we all agree that managers set a preference for where they would like their d-line to be, but surely you must know that the d-line shifts according to the opposition. Why are you trying to say you can set the d-line depth where you want it in FM14? I can.

I would like to add that you shouldn't say that people in general do not know what they are doing, but that you do not know what you are doing. I feel quite comfortable with this new system and I know what I am doing. I just played 5 games on full match replay, and with some slight adjustments to shouts I have the back 4 and the DM behaving how I would like them to behave.

You are used to sliders, I understand that, but you are not used to this system. How about learning and making it work for you?

Don't you like words starting with "w" ?

I'm so sorry.

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Seriously if people are going to believe that this new system is a dumbing down of the tactical interface because they can't move a notch a couple of places, but instead have to consider what instructions to give players in individual roles, the forums will be even more tedious this year, Why can't you play attacking counter attacking football? I achieved that in about 2 minutes!

No you have not, you just think you have because you read the shouts and that's where you have lost control...you can not have counter on and attack to 20 (or other combos). The moderator actually responded by saying 'we have to trade off' in this version, so please consider your response, we have lost some control and people are entitled to say we are unhappy with something. You need to understand that when you choose a role, it just increases the the amount a player/team does something, like play at a high tempo 1-20. If you can't select all 20 options you have lost control. When they have 20 shouts for everything such as tempo it will be the same. Or just give us the sliders back. This is how PES died, changing things for the sake of changing them, eventually making it worse. The best thing about FM has always been, signing players, finding youth and tactics. So I think this is an important change and may not impress a lot of people.

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No you have not, you just think you have because you read the shouts and that's where you have lost control...you can not have counter on and attack to 20 (or other combos). The moderator actually responded by saying 'we have to trade off' in this version, so please consider your response, we have lost some control and people are entitled to say we are unhappy with something. You need to understand that when you choose a role, it just increases the the amount a player/team does something, like play at a high tempo 1-20. If you can't select all 20 options you have lost control. When they have 20 shouts for everything such as tempo it will be the same. Or just give us the sliders back. This is how PES died, changing things for the sake of changing them, eventually making it worse. The best thing about FM has always been, signing players, finding youth and tactics. So I think this is an important change and may not impress a lot of people.

You never really had 20 options to begin with. The sliders might be numbered 1-20 but not every single notch was a visible difference. It was always a false sense of control to begin with and made you think you had more control than you actually did, something many of those complaining about the loss of control fail to acknowledge and speak like they always had 20 different options. When fact is, they didn't.

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One important new thing to mention which I just mentioned in GD.

Target Man and Playmaker tick boxes are gone.

This focus is now directly linked to Roles, so if you play a Target Man, he'll be the "out ball" for your team. If you use two Target Men for some reason, they will be equally sought out.

Same applies for Playmakers.

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Why FB can't swap position, Man marking or move into channels (are inactive) ?!

in fact, why are inactive instructions? Ex. I want my winger (atack) to drible more.

:(

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You never really had 20 options to begin with. The sliders might be numbered 1-20 but not every single notch was a visible difference. It was always a false sense of control to begin with and made you think you had more control than you actually did, something many of those complaining about the loss of control fail to acknowledge and speak like they always had 20 different options. When fact is, they didn't.

In the database tactical att's show as 1-20, so unless you are saying that attributes are generally aesthetic aswell which is another argument. I have to believe that 20 attacking and 1 attacking make a difference. And I keep going back to it, but attacking 20 and counter (and other combo's) is not possible. There is a loss of control, there is a trade off in what you can choose, a little like COD where you pick 1 perk instead of another. I play in a network clan where tactical battles have been the best thing about the game, I think this limits how far we can take it now.

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After a quick glance or two, almost everything is as expected. Chiefly the lack of actual descriptions and explanations of what the various instructions do. What good is an option saying that it will do "more X than default" when we do not know what the default is. Or "this will make the players do Y" – which players, and how much, and so on...

Though the inclusion of more than just two options for defensive line and tempo is pleasant. This is so annoying, the inclusion of presumably tested and relative (as opposed to sliders) and non game breaking and realistic concepts and commands is such a good thing, a step in the right direction, yet it is all undermined and made frustrating by not giving the player the necessary information.

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After a quick glance or two, almost everything is as expected. Chiefly the lack of actual descriptions and explanations of what the various instructions do. What good is an option saying that it will do "more X than default" when we do not know what the default is. Or "this will make the players do Y" – which players, and how much, and so on...

Though the inclusion of more than just two options for defensive line and tempo is pleasant. This is so annoying, the inclusion of presumably tested and relative (as opposed to sliders) and non game breaking and realistic concepts and commands is such a good thing, a step in the right direction, yet it is all undermined and made frustrating by not giving the player the necessary information.

Which has always been one of SIs biggest problems imo. They probably intentionally leave that to the community - a lot more cost effective, but extremely bad taste.

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Why FB can't swap position, Man marking or move into channels (are inactive) ?!

in fact, why are inactive instructions? Ex. I want my winger (atack) to drible more.

:(

Could full backs ever swap position?! Sounds like a peculiar idea to me.

Specific Man Marking is available when you set Instructions once the AI team is named - as was the case before.

Some instructions are inactive because some things are locked in or out of Roles to keep them as the essence of the Role.

I believe that Winger (Atack) dribbling is already on maximum, which is why you can't set it to dribble more.

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Could full backs ever swap position?! Sounds like a peculiar idea to me.

Specific Man Marking is available when you set Instructions once the AI team is named - as was the case before.

Some instructions are inactive because some things are locked in or out of Roles to keep them as the essence of the Role.

I believe that Winger (Atack) dribbling is already on maximum, which is why you can't set it to dribble more.

Full backs automatically swapping positions don't look like a great idea, I can see why it's not allowed.

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In the database tactical att's show as 1-20, so unless you are saying that attributes are generally aesthetic aswell which is another argument. I have to believe that 20 attacking and 1 attacking make a difference. And I keep going back to it, but attacking 20 and counter (and other combo's) is not possible. There is a loss of control, there is a trade off in what you can choose, a little like COD where you pick 1 perk instead of another. I play in a network clan where tactical battles have been the best thing about the game, I think this limits how far we can take it now.

The tactical attributes in the database are the style the club or manager plays and are not about sliders at all. You are on about 2 completely different things, don't mix them up. We are on about sliders not attributes, the 2 things are seperate.

And if you actually read what I put I said not every notch made a difference. To try and prove your point you had to use 2 extremes of 1 and 20 attacking when obviously they would have a difference. But going from 1 to 2 or even 3 would have no visible difference at all yet you are led to believe it did due to being able to see the numeric value. But the way you are talking was as if every single notch made a difference when it didn't. You'd only notice a difference by going from 1 extreme to another.

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The tactical attributes in the database are the style the club or manager plays and are not about sliders at all. You are on about 2 completely different things, don't mix them up. We are on about sliders not attributes, the 2 things are seperate.

And if you actually read what I put I said not every notch made a difference. To try and prove your point you had to use 2 extremes of 1 and 20 attacking when obviously they would have a difference. But going from 1 to 2 or even 3 would have no visible difference at all yet you are led to believe it did due to being able to see the numeric value. But the way you are talking was as if every single notch made a difference when it didn't. You'd only notice a difference by going from 1 extreme to another.

Well, i am pretty sure they would be on the same 1-20 scale that everything else is on in the game. But if you want to discredit my argument by discussing hidden att's or the internal workings of the game, I will struggle to back it up. I understand you are saying the sliders only really had maybe lets say 6 notches rather than 20 giving the illusion of control But maybe I could do with that illusion. What I do know is that with my team attacking on max and counter, I had a 46 WWWWW streak last time i looked in FM13 and now i cant even select the tactic i had. And rather than slate the guy in a previous post for wanting to play fullbacks that swap positions, why not acknowledge he should be able to do what he wants. If he says 10x DC's then that's what he should get.

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Not even got beta, and this already sounds much better. Like a more sophisticated version of the old CM games.

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Well, i am pretty sure they would be on the same 1-20 scale that everything else is on in the game. But if you want to discredit my argument by discussing hidden att's or the internal workings of the game, I will struggle to back it up. I understand you are saying the sliders only really had maybe lets say 6 notches rather than 20 giving the illusion of control But maybe I could do with that illusion. What I do know is that with my team attacking on max and counter, I had a 46 WWWWW streak last time i looked in FM13 and now i cant even select the tactic i had. And rather than slate the guy in a previous post for wanting to play fullbacks that swap positions, why not acknowledge he should be able to do what he wants. If he says 10x DC's then that's what he should get.

You brought the hidden attributes and tactic values into it not me :D they work different to attributes that's why you can't compare. Just because they share the same numeric value doesn't mean they mean the same thing.

Do you know what counter attack (ticking the box) actually did? They way you are talking I'm not sure you understood what it did with all due respect. All it meant was when you out numbered the option by so many players you'd hit them on the break. If you was already playing gung-ho this wouldn't really have no benefit for you or work unless you was constantly being hit by counter attacks yourself which is highly unlikely if you had the run you had. So you wasn't really benefiitng from counter attack being ticked anyway because it changed tempo/mentality to 20 which you already had selected to begin with. That's the reason there was a counter attacking strategy instead as that actually worked different and took all thing into consideration.

Just because something gives you the illusion that something works doesn't mean its correct, you have to draw the line somewhere.

I never slated anyone either, are you actually reading whats written? I was addressing you and you only.

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You brought the hidden attributes and tactic values into it not me :D they work different to attributes that's why you can't compare. Just because they share the same numeric value doesn't mean they mean the same thing.

Do you know what counter attack (ticking the box) actually did? They way you are talking I'm not sure you understood what it did with all due respect. All it meant was when you out numbered the option by so many players you'd hit them on the break. If you was already playing gung-ho this wouldn't really have no benefit for you or work unless you was constantly being hit by counter attacks yourself which is highly unlikely if you had the run you had. So you wasn't really benefiitng from counter attack being ticked anyway because it changed tempo/mentality to 20 which you already had selected to begin with. That's the reason there was a counter attacking strategy instead as that actually worked different and took all thing into consideration.

Just because something gives you the illusion that something works doesn't mean its correct, you have to draw the line somewhere.

I never slated anyone either, are you actually reading whats written? I was addressing you and you only.

Counter attack and the illusion of 19 attacking on FM 13 (logic does not apply when it comes to creating great fm tactics)

http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af346/xxxSKELETORxxx/Currentgame.png

I meant the forum in general slating, apologies if you thought i meant you. xxx

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Counter attack and the illusion of 19 attacking on FM 13 (logic does not apply when it comes to creating great fm tactics)

http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af346/xxxSKELETORxxx/Currentgame.png

I meant the forum in general slating, apologies if you thought i meant you. xxx

The screenshot proves nothing and counter attacking works like I said above. You wasn't benefiting from it like you think you was :)

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The screenshot proves nothing and counter attacking works like I said above. You wasn't benefiting from it like you think you was :)

ok, I know you have to defend the game as a mod, but there is a loss of control, as I can not play my tactic in this game or any of my old ones. The screenshot proves that it worked. I play 5 nights week in a clan and have done for the last 2 years, since the break up of FML where I was a moderator and a top player. I am not a mug and if you want to show me what you know about tactics for real, please come show me, by adding skeletorxxx on skype and joining our competitive clan. Challenge extended!!!?!?!?

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ok, I know you have to defend the game as a mod, but there is a loss of control, as I can not play my tactic in this game or any of my old ones. The screenshot proves that it worked. I play 5 nights week in a clan and have done for the last 2 years, since the break up of FML where I was a moderator and a top player. I am not a mug and if you want to show me what you know about tactics for real, please come show me, by adding skeletorxxx on skype and joining our competitive clan. Challenge extended!!!?!?!?

I don't have to defend the game at all. What has being a mod got to do with it? Not sure why people always assume just because you are a mod you have to defend the game. I've slated the game loads in recent months especially the rubbish training system that we currently have.

You keep changing your argument though, I never once said to you that you didn't lose any kind of control. You was saying counter attacking worked different to how it actually does work in game terms and you was talking as if every single notch made a difference which I addressed.

I was also a top player on FML but the 2 games aren't really comparable because we all set up and specialised in different things. Some people suffered short term issues due to thinking long term and seeing the bigger picture while other managers ignored long term and wanted instant success. We then also had the human element thrown into the mix too. So not really sure why being a mod on FML or because you was a top player has anything to do with playing FM.

I'm too busy to play clan games sorry.

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I don't mind the sliders not being active but I would like some visual reference as to what everything does. The descriptions mean nothing to me. I need to see pictures to understand how things work

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In the database tactical att's show as 1-20, so unless you are saying that attributes are generally aesthetic aswell which is another argument. I have to believe that 20 attacking and 1 attacking make a difference. And I keep going back to it, but attacking 20 and counter (and other combo's) is not possible. There is a loss of control, there is a trade off in what you can choose, a little like COD where you pick 1 perk instead of another. I play in a network clan where tactical battles have been the best thing about the game, I think this limits how far we can take it now.

Haha, you said clam.

I prefer the new system, hopefully it'll stop the downloading of Mr Houghs plug and play game breaker tactics which had a massively detrimental effect on the network games.

With the new version, you should be able to think how you'd like your team to play, and then using the shouts / tick boxes aligned with the roles set in the team, you should be able to customise your own tactics to your own team and the players you have.

Ive tried it (albeit only for a small run of games) with 2 teams so far, and have found it very intuitive, and feel that using the range of options provided is better than moving a slider up a few spaces and hoping for the best.

I like this so much so, that I may be come back to the clam myself this year :)

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Could full backs ever swap position?! Sounds like a peculiar idea to me.

Specific Man Marking is available when you set Instructions once the AI team is named - as was the case before.

Some instructions are inactive because some things are locked in or out of Roles to keep them as the essence of the Role.

I believe that Winger (Atack) dribbling is already on maximum, which is why you can't set it to dribble more.

..but move into channels ?!!?? Marcelo (Real) often moves into channel.. this is modern football, but SI pull back in 80's (the essence of the Role = Rigid Role, Ronaldo isn't Calejon , i prefer Ronaldo to drible more)

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I've played this series on and off for a while but I came into this one with an open mind and I'm pleasantly surprised. I especially like the new player instructions and how it's much easier to set the way a certain player approaches the game based on their strengths and weaknesses - and this turns out to be very realistic when watching them play in the ME.

For example, I started with Arsenal and got to setting Player Instructions for the AMR position. I added Get Forward More to Walcott's individual instructions and with just one click he is already playing very similar to how he does in real life and how I want him to.

Previously, I'd have to tinker his Mentality settings manually if I felt the generic W/IF settings weren't enough, and then worry how much to change them. Say if I want him to have a slightly higher mnetality than Giroud, how much do I change it? 1 notch? 5 notches? I never knew. Since I've manually ticked the slider I have to go back and change it again everytime I want to change my overall Strategy. I'm lazy and it was just too much effort that I would just leave the slider unticked and try and change his behaviour in other ways like PPMs or player development. Because I want him to play a high mentality than Giroud but I don't want to bother with sliders I'd have to set Giroud as a TM(s), and that's not how I want to play him at all as now my playmakers have less space in the middle. I didn't feel like I had the full control over my tactic before. Hell, most of my player roles were non-specialist and I'd hope that a player would play a certain way because he had a high Creativity, or a certain PPM. If he didn't, then tough luck.

Now, I can take a player like Flamini and tell him to play a CM(d) with shorter and less risky passes but if I sub him out for Arteta because I want a little more creativity in the field I don't have to go and change sliders anymore, because I've already told Arteta to approach the game as a DLP(d) beforehand. I feel more like a Manager now than before, when I felt more like a gamer.

So that's the good part, but the fact I can't easily see what a role does is a little problem sometimes. For example, I wanted to play Wilshere as a B2B. Previously I could see what the B2B role did and saw it was too roaming for what I wanted as part of a double pivot in a 4-2-3-1, so I would set him as a CM(s) and his Get Forward PPM would do the rest. Now I'm not sure if I can set him as a B2B, or to set him as a CM(s), or go with his highest rating by role and set him as an AP(s). I don't think it's as huge a problem as people make out though, as I can test this over a few games. I would have had to do this anyway with sliders as I wouldn't know what the setting "More Roaming" does exactly anyway, just as I wouldn't know how much Run From Deep "Sometimes" means without testing in-game, or how much 15/20 Mentality is exactly in ME terms. As long as the role performs exactly as it does in it's description, I'm fine with it. And so far from my experience it does.

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..but move into channels ?!!?? Marcelo (Real) often moves into channel.. this is modern football, but SI pull back in 80's (the essence of the Role = Rigid Role, Ronaldo isn't Calejon , i prefer Ronaldo to drible more)

Moves Into Channels is a lateral movement from centre towards touchline, it is more relevant for central players - how can an already wide full back go even wider?

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No you have not, you just think you have because you read the shouts and that's where you have lost control...you can not have counter on and attack to 20 (or other combos). The moderator actually responded by saying 'we have to trade off' in this version, so please consider your response, we have lost some control and people are entitled to say we are unhappy with something. You need to understand that when you choose a role, it just increases the the amount a player/team does something, like play at a high tempo 1-20. If you can't select all 20 options you have lost control. When they have 20 shouts for everything such as tempo it will be the same. Or just give us the sliders back. This is how PES died, changing things for the sake of changing them, eventually making it worse. The best thing about FM has always been, signing players, finding youth and tactics. So I think this is an important change and may not impress a lot of people.

I am just going by what I saw my team do when watching them in a full match. In my own mind, counter attacking is reasonably attacking anyway, and as you say, how I gave my instructions meant we held the ball in the backline for a little and then pushed up in numbers putting pressure on their defense. So to me that was an attacking counter attack because it had purpose and not just boot it long and rush forward. But I agree that maybe I am just using terminology that fits what I saw. I also understand the idea of losing control in being able to set 20 across the board, but I don't think that means the system has been dumbed down.

I do want to point out that I did use sliders to a small extent in FM13, so perhaps I am not going to miss them as much as some. If it turns out the new system really is detrimental for the game, I will be happy to change my tune as well. An important part of the game for me is immersion and I like the way the new system helps create that effect.

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I was also a top player on FML but the 2 games aren't really comparable because we all set up and specialised in different things. Some people suffered short term issues due to thinking long term and seeing the bigger picture while other managers ignored long term and wanted instant success. We then also had the human element thrown into the mix too. So not really sure why being a mod on FML or because you was a top player has anything to do with playing .

Wow, two FML top players in the same thread, I'm impressed!

I was a subbuteo top player, if this could help.... :)

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Wow, two FML top players in the same thread, I'm impressed!

I was a subbeteo top player, if this could help.... :)

If you bothered to read the rest of it you'd see I said it means nothing. Now stop posting utter crap all the time please, this isn't the first time you've posted utter nonsense which has nothing to do with the thread over the last week or so.

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If you bothered to read the rest of it you'd see I said it means nothing. Now stop posting utter crap all the time please, this isn't the first time you've posted utter nonsense which has nothing to do with the thread over the last week or so.

Your ego is giving you huge problems, isn't it?

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Probably worth mentioning you also have two extreme d-line variants as well, hassle and stand off opponents, which set a maximum and minimum d-line respectively. So that's five d-line possibilities per base strategy, plus variants of d-line settings if you go up or down a base strategy. I would be very surprised if you can't get your d-line behaving as you'd wish after a little trial and error.
In sliderese, Hassle = 20 d-line, 20 closing down, stand off = 1 d-line, 1 closing down. If you want players to hold position, drop deeper reduces the d-line and closing down by 5 (aggressive base strategies), 3 (standard base strategies), or 1 (cautious base strategies). Push higher does the same in reverse.

Hassle and stand off opponents are a switch that you toggle according to your closing down preferences and are always accessible regarding of strategy, right?

My memory's going! There are two more defensive line settings as well, which are new for FM14, Much Higher and Much Deeper defensive line. That makes 7 different d-line settings per base strategy.

I suppose those settings change the line in a higher degree than the previous one, right?

First thought: how can this method be naturally better than the previous slider? If the changes are also done to avoid the "trial and error jungle" of sliders it doesn't seem to me that this method is clearly better.

I have a slider that is reference and that's it, I set the value and that's it. In the new implementation I have a value set by the strategy (which I don't know) and I have two modifiers: one that changes closing down too (the fact that the two settings are directly linked is a debate I don't want to open now) and another that I don't know how much it does. We can agree that having a direct simple access to this is much better then playing with +/- modifiers we don't even know if they can get me to where I will?

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