Mihalis

Tactics FM14

155 posts in this topic

I love my tactics on the FM series. However i am wondering (as quite literally i cannot be bothered after a 12 hour shift at work to look through the forums. Please dont delete this mods!!!) if the tactical revamp on FM14 will see us be able to set player postions when we have and do not have the ball.

For example, wen teams play a narrow 3, without the ball the wingers drop back and create a midfield 5 thats hard to break down. I would love that diversity and abi.ity to dig deeper into the tactical side of the game (especially as im giong to take my level 1 coaching badge b4 xmas)

Can anyone help with this info???

Thanks in advance my fellow FMers.. back to my valencia save... down barca and real DOWN!!!

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I love my tactics on the FM series. However i am wondering (as quite literally i cannot be bothered after a 12 hour shift at work to look through the forums. Please dont delete this mods!!!) if the tactical revamp on FM14 will see us be able to set player postions when we have and do not have the ball.

For example, wen teams play a narrow 3, without the ball the wingers drop back and create a midfield 5 thats hard to break down. I would love that diversity and abi.ity to dig deeper into the tactical side of the game (especially as im giong to take my level 1 coaching badge b4 xmas)

Can anyone help with this info???

Thanks in advance my fellow FMers.. back to my valencia save... down barca and real DOWN!!!

The only thing anyone can say to you is to wait for more information from SI. It will come. Everyone must just be patient.

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I'd be very surprised if they brought back wibble / wobble. Personally I would like a bit more control over this again too though.

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I love my tactics on the FM series. However i am wondering (as quite literally i cannot be bothered after a 12 hour shift at work to look through the forums. Please dont delete this mods!!!) if the tactical revamp on FM14 will see us be able to set player postions when we have and do not have the ball.

For example, wen teams play a narrow 3, without the ball the wingers drop back and create a midfield 5 thats hard to break down. I would love that diversity and abi.ity to dig deeper into the tactical side of the game (especially as im giong to take my level 1 coaching badge b4 xmas)

Can anyone help with this info???

Thanks in advance my fellow FMers.. back to my valencia save... down barca and real DOWN!!!

I'd be very surprised if they brought back wibble / wobble. Personally I would like a bit more control over this again too though.

With/Without ball never left the game.

The formation you select and the defensive instructions you give are your "Without Ball" while the roles/duties & attacking instructions you give are your "With Ball".

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I hope that amongst new roles we will be able to select inside forwards for players in ML/MR positions without touching sliders. In defence 4411, in attack 4231, just like Swansea.

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I don't like the current tactics system because IMO it misses the main point in real tactics. In real football coaches give instructions to players and these given instructions form the role that player plays. In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you. IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game. For example if you use 4-2-3-1 and create the tactic only with tactics creator, there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do. Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?

That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.

Any comments from SI are more than welcome.

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I don't like the current tactics system because IMO it misses the main point in real tactics. In real football coaches give instructions to players and these given instructions form the role that player plays. In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you. IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game. For example if you use 4-2-3-1 and create the tactic only with tactics creator, there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do. Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?

That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.

In FM tactics you don't have to give instructions at all, you just pick a role that is pre-made for you.

You do give instructions, the shouts. You can also edit the options of the role.

A role is built on a specific concept that exists in real life. Could we have more roles? Definitely.

IMO that fact destroys all skill requirements and tactical identities in the game.

It 100% does not. Football is built on concepts. The TC uses the same concepts, though it can certainly have more added to it. Micro teweaking sliders by one point left/right isn't really anything to with having more skill or understanding though.

there will be about 5 million other managers that will use exactly the same tactics you do.

There are something like 2 million combinations between the Current TC and the shouts. People will tend to gravitate towards similar popular set ups because they mirror the current trends, the 4-2-3-1 for example.

Where's your tactical identity then? And what makes you better manager than others?

Have a look round the tactical discussion threads for how many people do create their own tactical identity.

That's why I would love to see more micro tweaking things in FM tactics in the future. Things that make you able to get your team play exactly in the way that you like. These things would also increase the risk of making tactical errors and so on. Simply more realism.

There is already plenty of scope for tactical errors. Micro tweaking the sliders isn't the same as more realism though. Could certainly do with more options within the TC though, particularly in in terms of controlling lateral.

Frankly I'd remove the sliders in their entirety, while greatly expanding the TC, so that everything is done in "footballing language".

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You do give instructions, the shouts.
Yeah you can give instructions but you don't have to.
You can also edit the options of the role.

A role is built on a specific concept that exists in real life. Could we have more roles? Definitely.

Roles do exist but only when you analyze tactics. As a manager, you can't just pick a role out of the air, you will have to create it by telling a player what you want him to do in different situations.
It 100% does not. Football is built on concepts. The TC uses the same concepts, though it can certainly have more added to it. Micro teweaking sliders by one point left/right isn't really anything to with having more skill or understanding though.
For me it does. That's because I've played different versions of this game and with tactics creator I do know things that basically always work no matter what team I'm controlling. Sad but true.
There are something like 2 million combinations between the Current TC and the shouts. People will tend to gravitate towards similar popular set ups because they mirror the current trends, the 4-2-3-1 for example.
Yeah 2 million combinations but you can't tell that all of these are used by someone. In real football you can easily say that every manager have their own identity. That's because they have create their style of play from a scratch. In real tactics or style of plays you have to instruct your team in passing, movement and so on. In FM you don't have to do anything if you don't like to.
There is already plenty of scope for tactical errors.
Such as? With ready-made roles you will have to be quite unaware of football if you do not succeed.
Micro tweaking the sliders isn't the same as more realism though. Could certainly do with more options within the TC though, particularly in in terms of controlling lateral.
Maybe not realism but atleast it "forced" us to make our own style of plays from the scratch. I'm not saying that SI should go back to sliders but I would like to have more challenge, control and better tactical identity that also shows in the match engine when you watch your team playing. Also stats seem to be quite identical no matter what team you control or what kind of tactics you are using. The main pleasure for me in the game was when I got my team to play in the way I like. For example in FM 2008 I got Lampard scoring 20-30 goals per season from central midfiel position. Now that kind of things seem impossible no matter how you instruct your team.
Frankly I'd remove the sliders in their entirety, while greatly expanding the TC, so that everything is done in "footballing language".
Yes, with a real tactical overhaul it would be possible to get rid of sliders, agreed.

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Yeah you can give instructions but you don't have to.

You don't have to in real football either. Some managers constantly do it (Mourinho) some rarely do (Del Bosque)

Roles do exist but only when you analyze tactics. As a manager, you can't just pick a role out of the air, you will have to create it by telling a player what you want him to do in different situations.

You are telling him what to do when you pick a specific role and duty.

For me it does. That's because I've played different versions of this game and with tactics creator I do know things that basically always work no matter what team I'm controlling. Sad but true.

Yes but thats not how it is. The TC is built on the logic that went with sliders in the first place. So it's impossible for it to destroy skill or understanding. And fiddling around with the sliders contrary to the logic and theory they were written in isn't more skill or understanding. Trying to find the "sweet spot" with a slider setting is nothing to do with realism, but gaming the engine ( not aimed at you by the way, its a general point)

Yeah 2 million combinations but you can't tell that all of these are used by someone. In real football you can easily say that every manager have their own identity. That's because they have create their style of play from a scratch. In real tactics or style of plays you have to instruct your team in passing, movement and so on. In FM you don't have to do anything if you don't like to.

Im FM you can create your own identity with the TC, thats a fact. Same as in real life. Managers have their own identity in real life, but they are not all totally unique, there will be and are similarities, because there are eventually a finite number of real life football concepts. Pellegrini, Martino and Guardiola this season are all playing different ways, but there are lots of similarities in their set ups. And so it is in FM.

Maybe not realism but atleast it "forced" us to make our own style of plays from the scratch. I'm not saying that SI should go back to sliders but I would like to have more challenge, control and better tactical identity that also shows in the match engine when you watch your team playing. Also stats seem to be quite identical no matter what team you control or what kind of tactics you are using. The main pleasure for me in the game was when I got my team to play in the way I like. For example in FM 2008 I got Lampard scoring 20-30 goals per season from central midfield position. Now that kind of things seem impossible no matter how you instruct your team.

It stops you wasting several hours picking the same setting you largely pick would anyway, I have always played fluid/balanced/rigid in FM. Before the TC, in TTF09 they would have been called 5x5, role theory and bands of two . The general settings I used have not really deviated in about 5 years. Yet before the TC it would have taken me 6 hours to create a tactics set identical to the one i use now in FM which takes 15 minutes. Thats nearly 6 hours I don't have to waste picking the same settings I would anyway.

I think I understand what you are trying to get at from the tactical side, but you'd be suprised how much of it is there already. But I think we are both in agreement that much more can be added to the TC.

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I too would like to see more information on the tactical side. This will make up my mind if I decide to buy or wait till FM15.

Looking at the screen shots imo it looks as if they have just changed the way the existing tactics are presented except that you can now set up multiple roles prior to the game starting for each player. In the old slider system the new shouts used to be sliders and I am wondering if they have made the sliders now for the player instructions as like the shouts are.

I am also interested to know if the 'match plans' are in the full version of the game and not just FM classic as this would be good if you have a touchline ban and then you can tell your assistant how he is to approach the game for you.

I would also like to know if OI's will still be included in the game - I micromanage and do set these myself but do hate doing it as it is a long task at times.

It would be useful for a blog to be done by Miles for the tactical overhaul of the game.

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It stops you wasting several hours picking the same setting you largely pick would anyway, I have always played fluid/balanced/rigid in FM. Before the TC, in TTF09 they would have been called 5x5, role theory and bands of two . The general settings I used have not really deviated in about 5 years. Yet before the TC it would have taken me 6 hours to create a tactics set identical to the one i use now in FM which takes 15 minutes. Thats nearly 6 hours I don't have to waste picking the same settings I would anyway.

If we do not wish to completely agree with and play by the rules the TC has laid out, we still have to go through those 6 hours.

That's my biggest beef really. While the TC is fast and simple, you'll lose all that comfort in a blink of an eye if you want to fiddle a bit with your set-up. Combine that with the suppressing "Do not touch the sliders" dogma leaves one very little room with their tactics.

I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.

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I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.

Are you trying to say you can't do this with the TC? Because that's wrong...

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Are you trying to say you can't do this with the TC? Because that's wrong...

You categorically can not.

Just check what 'Look for overlap' does.

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You categorically can not.

Just check what 'Look for overlap' does.

I know what "look for overlap" does. You can still get your fullback to overlap without it. Also, Dani Alves didn't really overlap anyone since he was basically alone on the right flank, but I understand the point you were trying to make.

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You can get your full-back to overlap but not in the manner of the 'Look for overlap' shout. There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders. Maybe I should've made that explicitly clear because it seems you are feeling very beside the point and pedantic...

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You can get your full-back to overlap but not in the manner of the 'Look for overlap' shout. There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders. Maybe I should've made that explicitly clear because it seems you are feeling very beside the point and pedantic...

Beside the point? The point you made was that you can't make one flank overlap the winger without doing the same to the other flank. I said you can. I answered the point you tried to make.

Anyway... I just got my left back to overlap my left winger while the right back stays pretty far back. I did it by using the "look for overlap" shout too and without touching sliders.

DL: FB/A

AML: IF/S

DR: FB/D

AMR: IF/A

Edit: It might have worked with a DR : FB/S, but I just tried it very quickly.

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Playing a FB/A and an IF/S isn't the same as applying to 'Look for overlap' to any possible combination of TC roles. Look for overlap is always capable of more extreme overlapping. It seems that you really don't know what changes 'Look for overlap' actually does.

So maybe you missed this part in my previous post:

There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders.

If you still didn't read it:

There's absolutely no way.

Of applying 'look for overlap'.

On the right flank and not on the left flank.

Without manually overriding sliders.

I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.

Can you make yourself understand that in this context 'overlap his winger' is a substitute for 'Look for overlap' due to catchiness in a final paragraph and be done with this nitpicking BS?

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Playing a FB/A and an IF/S isn't the same as applying to 'Look for overlap' to any possible combination of TC roles. Look for overlap is always capable of more extreme overlapping. It seems that you really don't know what changes 'Look for overlap' actually does.

So maybe you missed this part in my previous post:

There's absolutely no way of applying 'look for overlap' on the right flank and not on the left flank without manually overriding sliders.

If you still didn't read it:

There's absolutely no way.

Of applying 'look for overlap'.

On the right flank and not on the left flank.

Without manually overriding sliders.

Did you read my post? I used the "look for overlap shout". So I had "extreme overlapping" on the left side, WHILE having ZERO overlapping on the right. No sliders touched. I know it still applies the effects of the shout on the right flank too, but FB/D took care of that. I know it still affects the IF/A, but without manual adjustments, that cannot be fixed.

I know what you're trying to say. I know you can't "apply" a shout to only affect one flank etc, but there are ways of mostly getting round it.

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I know what "look for overlap" does. You can still get your fullback to overlap without it. Also, Dani Alves didn't really overlap anyone since he was basically alone on the right flank, but I understand the point you were trying to make.

You can, just by changing the roles ( and I dont mean sliders). Its exactly what I do. Could it be made easier with a left right option added, pretty sure I saw that in the FM14 screenshots

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You can, just by changing the roles ( and I dont mean sliders). Its exactly what I do. Could it be made easier with a left right option added, pretty sure I saw that in the FM14 screenshots

I do this too. I only use the "look for overlap" shout if I'm playing against a stubborn defence parking the bus. Throw on a few beanpoles, sit back and watch the devastation. :)

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If we do not wish to completely agree with and play by the rules the TC has laid out, we still have to go through those 6 hours.

That's my biggest beef really. While the TC is fast and simple, you'll lose all that comfort in a blink of an eye if you want to fiddle a bit with your set-up. Combine that with the suppressing "Do not touch the sliders" dogma leaves one very little room with their tactics.

I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.

The do not touch sliders isnt dogma, because isnt what was said. What was aid was that if you don't understand the sliders, you're advised to not use them. Which is basic common sense. And the bold bit is actually dogma because you have a suprising amount of freedom without ever needing to touch the slights.

I wonder how nuts Guardiola would've gone if he couldn't have told Alves to overlap his winger without telling the same to Abidal.

I wouldn't know, since I can do this with the TC without touching sliders anyway.

You still wouldn't need to go through the 6 hours regardless.

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Yeah, you can mitigate a fundamental design mistake by completely ripping your set-up apart. You're compromising 5 instructions to get 1 right. All that because SI couldn't figure a more dynamic tactical system during the lifespan of TC.

It's shocking that people stand up to such a rigid system. No wonder the tactical system is nearly in a halt and the "ME" development is focusing on 3D aesthetics. People want their players to wear different coloured boots and more goal celebrations instead of actual development in the ME.

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Yeah, you can mitigate a fundamental design mistake by completely ripping your set-up apart. You're compromising 5 instructions to get 1 right. All that because SI couldn't figure a more dynamic tactical system during the lifespan of TC.

It's shocking that people stand up to such a rigid system. No wonder the tactical system is nearly in a halt and the "ME" development is focusing on 3D aesthetics. People want their players to wear different coloured boots and more goal celebrations instead of actual development in the ME.

What are you talking about? I don't have to do anything of the sort

You wouldn't have Abidal and Alves on the same role anyway for example. That's why you would have one player overlapping with out the other.

Also dont know if you looked at the screenshots, but there are clearly changes in the TC coming

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I'd like to see the sliders and classic tactics done away with and expand the TC more, especially now with these individual player settings they're bringing in, it should make it more flexible and interesting. I also remember on a much earlier version of the game on the tactics screen you could click areas of the pitch and it would show how your players were positioned when the ball was in that area, you could also move the players around which gave more control. Be cool if they bought this back. And hopefull more options to set up set pieces would be good.

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What are you talking about? I don't have to do anything of the sort

You wouldn't have Abidal and Alves on the same role anyway for example. That's why you would have one player overlapping with out the other.

Ok, your starting roles are: FBs Abidal, WBa Alves, ahead 2x Wa.

Get Alves to overlap and Abidal not without compromising their or the wingers' unrelated instructions (such as CF, TTB, passing... the works).

You have 6 hours and your time starts now!

...

You can't do it.

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Also dont know if you looked at the screenshots, but there are clearly changes in the TC coming

Yeah, I did glance at them.

Babysteps.

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Ok, your starting roles are: FBs Abidal, WBa Alves, ahead 2x Wa.

Get Alves to overlap and Abidal not without compromising their or the wingers' unrelated instructions (such as CF, TTB, passing... the works).

You have 6 hours and your time starts now!

...

You can't do it.

Trick question, because you can't overlap a winger attacking pushing high and hugging the byline, which is why the look for overlap shout gives your wingers a lower mentality, run from deep rarely and hold up the ball.

So to make Alves overlap my winger, switch my winger support in that side to winger support. My play isnnt compromised or fundamentally ripped up.

also I dont know how we can judge how big or small the changes are yet based on the few screenshots, so I really dont see how you can say baby steps

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So to make Alves overlap my winger, switch my winger support in that side to winger support. My play isnnt compromised or fundamentally ripped up.

And thus changing (off the top of my head at least) his tackling, marking, passing and CF instructions. And you don't get the HUB that 'Look for overlap' hands out either. This is exactly what I meant by compromising...

I bet SI have more ideas but they are holding on to them releasing just a portion of them for each iteration. Simply because FM15's worst competitor will be FM14 it doesn't make sense for them to really strive for the best possible product. I imagine FM15 will feature 'Play more creative' and 'Play more disciplined' instructions for players... Just like this FM14 got 'Roam from position more' shout.

Who could've thought of that a year earlier... Or better: who had the financial incentive of implementing that a year earlier?

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Actually, I forgot what exactly the change is to the RFD of a winger. Does the shout reduce it by one notch (Often to sometimes / Sometimes to Rarely) or does it set it to Rarely regardless?

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And thus changing (off the top of my head at least) his tackling, marking, passing and CF instructions. This is exactly what I meant by compromising...

I bet SI have more ideas but they are holding on to them releasing just a portion of them for each iteration. Simply because FM15's worst competitor will be FM14 it doesn't make sense for them to really strive for the best possible product. I imagine FM15 will feature 'Play more creative' and 'Play more disciplined' instructions for players... Just like this FM14 got 'Roam from position more' shout.

Who could've thought of that a year earlier... Or better: who had the financial incentive of implementing that a year earlier?

Except it doesn't compromise my approach, you asked how I would do it. That is how I do it, you can agree or disagree if you want, but I get the left sided overlap i want perfectly.

I'm all for a tactical discussion and how things can go forward, but you're just gonna say people are holding it back because they dont agree with you, or deal in spurious speculation about what SI might or might not be doing ( despite having nothing to back it up) them I'm nout because's unconstructive and gets us nowhere.

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It's just one notch although I don't see how's that essential.

It's not. I was just wondering.

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Actually, I forgot what exactly the change is to the RFD of a winger. Does the shout reduce it by one notch (Often to sometimes / Sometimes to Rarely) or does it set it to Rarely regardless?

Not sure, I'd have to open it up, I don't like to overlap both flanks, which is why I do in that manner. I much prefer to create a lopsided threat, or isolate a specific player. I think it is rarely, but dont hold me to that. I get what I want from the support role, because I wouldnt want him not making the run now and then.

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Not sure, I'd have to open it up, I don't like to overlap both flanks, which is why I do in that manner. I much prefer to create a lopsided threat, or isolate a specific player. I think it is rarely, but dont hold me to that. I get what I want from the support role, because I wouldnt want him not making the run now and then.
I do the same as you and I'm happy with the overlapping that I get as well. Imho, the "look for overlap" shout is only really something you should use if you're up against an ultra defensive team, which is why I rely on duties to create overlaps. Asking the Wingers/Inside Forwards to hold up the ball and with reduced mentality and rwb isn't a good idea as a standard tactic.

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Except it doesn't compromise my approach, you asked how I would do it. That is how I do it, you can agree or disagree if you want, but I get the left sided overlap i want perfectly.

Well I think it's great the TC can serve your approach, but overlap through role changes does compromise a lot of instructions compared to the touchline instruction. If it didn't, the shout would not exist.

I'm all for a tactical discussion and how things can go forward, but you're just gonna say people are holding it back because they dont agree with you, or deal in spurious speculation about what SI might or might not be doing ( despite having nothing to back it up) them I'm nout because's unconstructive and gets us nowhere.

It's cool, I didn't expect you to have any arguments to defend such dragging development in the tactics department.

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Well I think it's great the TC can serve your approach, but overlap through role changes does compromise a lot of instructions compared to the touchline instruction. If it didn't, the shout would not exist.

It's cool, I didn't expect you to have any arguments to defend such dragging development in the tactics department.

Seriously, because of my views you want to get personal? I don't agree with, and we dont know enough yet. Not sure why that gets your back up so much you want to get personal.

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I do the same as you and I'm happy with the overlapping that I get as well. Imho, the "look for overlap" shout is only really something you should use if you're up against an ultra defensive team, which is why I rely on duties to create overlaps. Asking the Wingers/Inside Forwards to hold up the ball and with reduced mentality and rwb isn't a good idea as a standard tactic.

Not really that much of a fan of hold up ball deep in the pitch general, don't like my players getting caught on the ball that deeps against pressing sides. That said its a source of joy when I press, as i often catch their DLP on the ball.

Felt like the hold up was excessive in FM13 though.

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Seriously, because of my views you want to get personal? I don't agree with, and we dont know enough yet. Not sure why that gets your back up so much you want to get personal.

Aren't you the one getting personal? I haven't called you any names or made any references to you in person. You on the other hand have suggested I am angry and that I can't handle people having other opinions to mine which is just nonsense and a cheap way out of a lost argument.

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You are telling him what to do when you pick a specific role and duty.
For me this is the main stupidity in tactics creator. Instead of roling, you just pick a role out of the air. It's kinda like doing things the wrong way round if you get what I mean.

For example John Obi Mikel said this in the summer:

“I always try to do what my coaches tell me. At Chelsea, I have to play for the team and be more defensive. But in Nigeria, the coach allows me to express myself and I enjoy myself. Now, I have to find a balance between the two because it is important for my future.”

He doesn't say that in Chelsea I'm an anchor man defend and in Nigeria I'm advanced playmaker support. That is how it goes in real football, you can't just pick a role out of the air. And also; who says that every manager in the world has exactly same kind of opinion how for example an anchorman is supposed to play.

Trying to find the "sweet spot" with a slider setting is nothing to do with realism
That wasn't my way with the sliders. I used to look players' attributes and adjust the sliders so that I could get the best out of certain player's strenghts and minimize that player's weaknesses.
Im FM you can create your own identity with the TC, thats a fact. Same as in real life. Managers have their own identity in real life, but they are not all totally unique, there will be and are similarities, because there are eventually a finite number of real life football concepts. Pellegrini, Martino and Guardiola this season are all playing different ways, but there are lots of similarities in their set ups. And so it is in FM.
You can but you don't have to. There are of course similarities in real football but impossible to find exactly matching style of plays. In FM all AI managers for example use only the tactics creator so you can easily think that there are thousands of teams that have exactly the same style of play. Sad but true once again.
It stops you wasting several hours picking the same setting you largely pick would anyway,
This is odd, I've never spent even half an hour with creating a tactics. It has only taken only minutes but with sliders at least the tactic was made by me, not the game.
I have always played fluid/balanced/rigid in FM. Before the TC, in TTF09 they would have been called 5x5, role theory and bands of two . The general settings I used have not really deviated in about 5 years. Yet before the TC it would have taken me 6 hours to create a tactics set identical to the one i use now in FM which takes 15 minutes. Thats nearly 6 hours I don't have to waste picking the same settings I would anyway.
I've never enjoyed things like buying too many players so I've always tried to find a super tactic for these certain players I've had. So with good tall central defenders I've played narrow and with good wingers I've used flanks to attack and so on. Nowadays it seems too much the same with every team. If you've played the game with one team, you have played it with every team. That is sadly how I've felt about tactics in recent versions.
I think I understand what you are trying to get at from the tactical side, but you'd be suprised how much of it is there already. But I think we are both in agreement that much more can be added to the TC.
Aye. Nice to get some good conversation about this thing.

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Well I think it's great the TC can serve your approach, but overlap through role changes does compromise a lot of instructions compared to the touchline instruction. If it didn't, the shout would not exist.

I'm trying to look it things another way... what does the shout give you that you feel you don't get with the duties? What exactly do you expect from your winger/inside forward on the overlapping side? What about the Winger/Inside Forward on the other side?

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For me this is the main stupidity in tactics creator. Instead of roling, you just pick a role out of the air. It's kinda like doing things the wrong way round if you get what I mean.

For example John Obi Mikel said this in the summer:

“I always try to do what my coaches tell me. At Chelsea, I have to play for the team and be more defensive. But in Nigeria, the coach allows me to express myself and I enjoy myself. Now, I have to find a balance between the two because it is important for my future.”

He doesn't say that in Chelsea I'm an anchor man defend and in Nigeria I'm advanced playmaker support. That is how it goes in real football, you can't just pick a role out of the air. And also; who says that every manager in the world has exactly same kind of opinion how for example an anchorman is supposed to play.

I'm sorry, I don't agree at all. He said that in an interview. I'm willing to bet his coaches didn't tell him to "go play defensive" (unless it was 'arry, which it wasn't). They would have told him to "Sit between defence and midfield, intercept passes and lay off simple passes to your teammates" which is basically what the TC describes the Anchor Man role to be.

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I'm trying to look it things another way... what does the shout give you that you feel you don't get with the duties? What exactly do you expect from your winger/inside forward on the overlapping side? What about the Winger/Inside Forward on the other side?

What I or you think is beside the point. We are not the experts.

What the creators of TC & shouts system have thought matters. They know the game inside out.

They obviously do not see Ws paired with a FBa to be a carbon copy of 'Look for overlap'.

After inspecting the changes it makes, we can say the shout is more extreme (or at least capable of more extreme scenarios) and thus it is reasonable to expect it to be suitable to a more restricted environment like you mentioned earlier. It shifts the attacking responsability from the wide midfielder to the full-back to an extent that is unrivaled by possible TC role combinations, thus being a viable option when you have great attacking full back(s), space down the flank(s) or you need more passing options against defensive opponents.

That is what the shout is meant to give and that is what I feel I can't get with roles/duties alone.

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What I or you think is beside the point. We are not the experts.

What the creators of TC & shouts system have thought matters. They know the game inside out.

They obviously do not see Ws paired with a FBa to be a carbon copy of 'Look for overlap'.

After inspecting the changes it makes, we can say the shout is more extreme (or at least capable of more extreme scenarios) and thus it is reasonable to expect it to be suitable to a more restricted environment like you mentioned earlier. It shifts the attacking responsability from the wide midfielder to the full-back to an extent that is unrivaled by possible TC role combinations, thus being a viable option when you have great attacking full back(s), space down the flank(s) or you need more passing options against defensive opponents.

That is what the shout is meant to give and that is what I feel I can't get with roles/duties alone.

I don't think either myself or themadsheep said it's a carbon copy of the shout. It isn't. I think you're looking for something from the overlap shout that it wasn't designed to be used for. That's why I asked what you want the wingers to do. I know what I need from my players and I'm able to set them up, with overlapping and players moving between the lines. Only if I want to slow the game down completely, keep possession and get crosses into the box from my fullbacks when I have enough players in the box against a team that is ultra defensive and can be exploited in the air, do I use the "look for overlap" shout. Against the more adventurous opponents, you're going to slow the game down so much that you don't take advantage of the space they have created for you. You're going to give them the time to get back into their defensive positions.

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I think you're looking for something from the overlap shout that it wasn't designed to be used for.

Nope. All I have done is provided you objective analysis on the effects of the shout and usage suggested by trusted FM sources.

You provide your own subjective opinions on the shout, which you seem to want to say differ from the reliable sources I base my facts upon.

I don't think either myself or themadsheep said it's a carbon copy of the shout. It isn't.

So what are you arguing then?

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I'm willing to bet his coaches didn't tell him to "go play defensive" (unless it was 'arry, which it wasn't). They would have told him to "Sit between defence and midfield, intercept passes and lay off simple passes to your teammates" which is basically what the TC describes the Anchor Man role to be.
Yes and they certainly didn't tell him just that you are an anchor man, they instructed him how to play in different situations. :)

Lets think about a scenario that in my team, my best player is a left-footed right back with a shot like Roberto Carlos. I would certainly like to get the best out of this player and the best I could get from him is both solid defence work but also 5-10 goals per season because he has the attributes to get those goals. You can't get the best out of that kind of players with tactics creator, you would need specified instructions such as sliders.

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Nope. All I have done is provided you objective analysis on the effects of the shout and usage suggested by trusted FM sources.

You provide your own subjective opinions on the shout, which you seem to want to say differ from the reliable sources I base my facts upon.

Okay then.

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Yes and they certainly didn't tell him just that you are an anchor man, they instructed him how to play in different situations. :)

Lets think about a scenario that in my team, my best player is a left-footed right back with a shot like Roberto Carlos. I would certainly like to get the best out of this player and the best I could get from him is both solid defence work but also 5-10 goals per season because he has the attributes to get those goals. You can't get the best out of that kind of players with tactics creator, you would need specified instructions such as sliders.

Wingback Support, ideally he would have the gets into opposition box PPM. Teach him to cut inside.

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Yes and they certainly didn't tell him just that you are an anchor man, they instructed him how to play in different situations. :)

Lets think about a scenario that in my team, my best player is a left-footed right back with a shot like Roberto Carlos. I would certainly like to get the best out of this player and the best I could get from him is both solid defence work but also 5-10 goals per season because he has the attributes to get those goals. You can't get the best out of that kind of players with tactics creator, you would need specified instructions such as sliders.

They're introducing (let's call 'em) 'slider instructions' for FM14 (run with the ball more/less etc.).

You can expect 'cut inside' to feature in FM17.

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Wingback Support, ideally he would have the gets into opposition box PPM. Teach him to cut inside.
First; boring and second; that wouldn't necessarily get the best out of him. What if I would like to create an attacking pattern where that right back would play in centre of the pitch even when he isn't in possession to get best possible angles for long shots and if we would lose possession he would return back to flank. As stupid as it sounds I would be able to instruct things like that in real football but certainly won't be able to do that in the game.

That kind of tactical control would be super especially in lower leagues where you could really get something new to the game if you would happen to find a real standout player for your team. For example, it would be real waste to play a Premierleague level full-back with supreme attributes just as an attacking full-back. There's so much more you could get out of that player with specified instructions.

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