Here we go again - hopefully wont ragequit.

[Hdefte]

Here goes, im going to try, yet again with a game in fm13, until now it has only been failure, from start to finish. But after reading some threads, i have gained new energy for trying out again.

I will be starting with Napoli, and trying to understand the ME better, and not just guess and hope for the best during the games.

The first thing in my mind is that I want to get the best out of my 2 star players;

Hamsik

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=awsz8j&s=5

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=300gz0p&s=5

I really like to utilize him as a finisher in the penalty area, since he will getting forward anyway, and moving in to channels. So instead of having him as a playmaker, I will try and see if he can

make them goals

Cavani

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vkhts3&s=5

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=13yo5na&s=5

Yeah, comes deep for the ball, great attributes, he can be used in a lot of ways.

The question is how to set up the players around them.

But first of I will compare my team how it is to the league:

My keepers:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=svjrxh&s=5

The only thing that is hopeless is the agility, the rest is in the better half of the league, and some of it is top class. Command of Area and Arial Ability should mean that I shouldn't be that afraid of crosses coming into the penalty area right?

Defense:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=adcghv&s=5

My defense is okay at positioning, and have decent speed to recover from any mistakes. Their marking and jumping are not that good, plus they are not solid tacklers. This compared to my keeper I think I will be able to keep a quite high defensive line, since my keep will take care of any one on ones.

Midfield:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yngc3s&s=5

There is nice versitility on the midfield. They can run like no tomorrow, plus they can pass and have the technique to withstand aggresive closing down. The only thing is that I shall not expect to see any 30 yarders from the midfield. Other than that, they are pretty much top of the league.

Attack:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29zo7rr&s=5

Lots of pace and acceleration, plus they are good finishers. The low anticipation how should I compensate for that, does that mean i should play into their feets or is it better to play through the defense? That is something that I will need to look at.

So how does all this turn out?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20kch9u&s=5

This is what i came up with. The plan is to hit them on counter attacks, by getting the ball high up on the pitch. The striker will fall back a bit to reseive the ball and they play it through the defense to the inside forwards that will come from the second line. I have set my DLP to defensive, so he can drop deeper and help out the defense with getting the ball up the field easier. So hopefully that will work out.

I do have a few concerns with this:

* How will the ball get out of the defense, will they just shoot it away and get nothing out of it? Will I need a ball playing defender in the long run, or maybe can Cannavaro do that job if I see it as a big problem.

* Are there to many offensive players on the pitch. Will the team split up to much and not be able to find any passing options when I get the ball?

* Will my midfield be creative enough and have the skills to set my offensive players up, so I can

Also I will be learning what shouts to use in this formation. I would imagine that i could use play wider+exploit middle to tear a solid midfield apart. Other than that I will have to research a bit more and try some thing out. Any suggestions will be appriciated, both to shouts and the tactic in general...and sorry if there is something that is hard to understand, since im not used to write in english + I didnt know how to make the pictures smaller in here, and didnt want to post a lot of really big ones, so now its just the links.

[drinkmixer84]

So i'd like to help you out since you seem to have the right attitude. I also am going to criticize some of your decisions so don't take offense please

1) Too many roles set to Attacking, I'd personally like to see 2 of these roles set to support (1 of the wingers, 1 of the AMCs). Also I don't know how i feel about the two inside forwards in the attacking midfield. You are going to funnel your attacks right through the middle of the pitch, making it easier to defend. If it was my tactic I'd use one AM-s and AP-A, but i would also ditch the BWM as I'm just not a fan you of that role you could say.

2) a Counter attacking tactic in which you have Press More is going to cause your team to tire quickly. I'm not saying it can't work, but for someone who's trying to learn the ME it could make this task more difficult.

I want to give you more tips regarding the formation but i'm just not an expert in 3 at the back formations. I'm sure if Cleon sees this he could give you some excellent tips.

[Cleon]

Here goes, im going to try, yet again with a game in fm13, until now it has only been failure, from start to finish. But after reading some threads, i have gained new energy for trying out again.

I will be starting with Napoli, and trying to understand the ME better, and not just guess and hope for the best during the games.

I believe you can be successful without knowing the ME or trying to figure it out these days with the tools we have available. In stead of trying to learn the ME think of it as a game and use things like watching a match, the match stats, analysis tab and things you see happening to create or tweak a tactic. It's honestly the easiest way to learn because you'll be basing it on visualizations and stuff that is actually happening instead of trying to guess the opponents next move like a chess game, this is where people can get frustrated because they end up over thinking or try to find a magic formula based on things that haven't happened.

I'm replying while reading the thread so forgive me if I ask something that is answered/explained further down the thread

The first thing in my mind is that I want to get the best out of my 2 star players;

Hamsik

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=awsz8j&s=5

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=300gz0p&s=5

I really like to utilize him as a finisher in the penalty area, since he will getting forward anyway, and moving in to channels. So instead of having him as a playmaker, I will try and see if he can

make them goals

If you want to use him as a finisher and scorer of goals then he will need to play high up the pitch and either have the ball passed to him in such positions or he needs someone dropping slightly deeper to create the space for him to run into and have the ball played to him so he can score those type of chances.

Cavani

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vkhts3&s=5

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=13yo5na&s=5

Yeah, comes deep for the ball, great attributes, he can be used in a lot of ways.

If you read my 'understanding your tactic' thread which can be found on the first page of the forum you'll see other people who used Cavani and discuss how they got him to work. It might require reading the full thread though and it is quite long but it's well worth it. The shape is probably different from what you are using but the idea behind the thread is to learn the shape you'll use and understand the basics behind it's strengths and weaknesses. Quite a few users used Cavani but his attributes and PPM's caused a lot of issues for certain roles. I think it's Lam in the thread who talks about them.

So how does all this turn out?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20kch9u&s=5

This is what i came up with. The plan is to hit them on counter attacks, by getting the ball high up on the pitch. The striker will fall back a bit to reseive the ball and they play it through the defense to the inside forwards that will come from the second line. I have set my DLP to defensive, so he can drop deeper and help out the defense with getting the ball up the field easier. So hopefully that will work out.

I do have a few concerns with this:

The idea behind what you want the striker to do is great and very logical. However the roles for the two AMC's don't really allow for this. So while in principle it sounds good and is possible to play this way you've not set up the roles to allow this to happen. What you've done is select a Treq and two IF's. So what you'll see happening is the Treq dropping deep but the IF's will be in his way and this will make the middle very congested because all 3 players will play in a similar position and use the same available space. You need some variation in attack because this is very easy to defend against because of how your front 3 all work together.

Try and watch games and pause it if needs be to see what kind of positions a player takes up on the pitch. Then try and give them roles based on what you see happening. Maybe think about making one of your AMC's either a normal AMC or a AP so you get different kind of movement from the player.

You also use a BWM. Now these tend to have very high closing down so will always run around and chase balls down which is great....BUT...it also means he gets dragged out of position a lot which means a gap appears in the centre which will be easily played through by something like a simple pass. It'll bypass the whole of the midfield which can be problematic as you have no cover for the back 3 in terms of a DMC.

Your defensive wingers are vital to this shape but you might want to give one of them a support role too. If you read my 'Yorkshireman and Libero' thread you'll see how I utilise my DW's and the job they actually do.

How come all your defenders have the exact same role? This means they all have the same settings so will all go for the same player. Give the roles some more thought and try and set it up so if two of them do step up to try and win the ball the third one will hang back in-case they miss the ball or because there might be a runner from midfield. While you want a defensive that can move around you don't want them to over do it and move around to much because again it'll leave gaps and expose you.

[Hdefte]

Thanks for the feedback, I can recognize a lot of the things, both of you are saying. I couldn't help it, and played a game last night before going to bed.

I think for the first time ever I watched the whole match - and both of you hitted the nail right on the head regarding the offensive players.

It was the against Juventus, and I lost 1-2, after I had the ball 57% of the time. But failed to make any real good chances, so already after the first game, I could see that something had to be done about the roles up front.

So for the upcoming game, I will change all the roles of the attacking players.

I will give it a try with your suggestions, with the AMCs making them AP-a and AM-s, plus I made Cavani complete forward, since it seems like he is capable of doing that - I have been reading some the thread understanding your tactic, and that is what actually inspired me for this, but will have to look through it again, to find the posts about Cavani.

I will also give a look at the defense as suggested + the midfield, and play the first 5-7 games of the league to see how it works out, before posting again.

[Hdefte]

Okay so I have played 7 matches now, 5 in the league and 2 in Europe. Only lost 1 match, which was the first one against Juventus in the super cup.

I could see that the offensive formation didnt work out, so i changed it to 2 strikers, to give Hamsik more options on the final third of the field. This have created a lot more chances, than the first thing I had going.

The only game, where i think I was totally outmatched was vs Lazio that had a really compact midfield(2 mcs and 3 amcs). That caused me a lot of trouble, since i got overrun defensively and couldnt hold on to the ball.

So in the last match i have changed my defensive wingers, to wingbacks. I dominated vs AA Genk in Europe, even though i only won 1-0 i had 3 shots on the woodwork, and several other chances.

So at the moment it looks like this:

The good things about this tactic is that it seems quite good defensivly, when i don't f' it up with weird shout combos...and against Genk it even seem to work good in the final third to, however that is not always the case, as my team,

is having a real tough time creating chances, in many of my games.

I do have some questions that have popped up during the first coupple of matches:

- What is the biggest between wingbacks and defensive wingers? can you give some pros and cons in this kind of system between the 2.

- I really need to hold on to a lead, I see my self, wanting to fall a bit deeper and counter attacking, however it just seem like I make it worse for my team that way.

- In matches where i dominate in possesion, how do i make better use of that? How can I make more chances and open up the oppositions defense?

[AnarchyAnt]

Cleon has more knowledge of this than I do, but the biggest difference between defensive wingers and wingbacks is that the game doesn't play the wingback position correctly. Don't get me wrong, it CAN work. I played WBs for a season and was fairly happy with their production, but if you actually watch a game you will see your player spin in circles a lot.

I think the general tip is that you should either stick with defensive wingers, or move them back to the DL-DR position as wingbacks. The game seems to understand them better there. I fought this for awhile simply because having a flat back five isn't pleasing to my eye, but the players really did play better back there.

As for what the ACTUAL difference is between a wingback and defensive winger, I don't know. I think I noticed my wingbacks moving towards the center of the field more in the final third while my DWs tended to stay wide, but I may have been imagining that.

I can't help with holding a lead, I can't do it. Seems that I can score 2 goals in the first half, but when the other team decides to push up, I can't seem to stop them no matter what.

For creating more chances, try to see where you are getting hung up. I messed around with a 4-2-3-1 for a little while and I wasn't creating any chances. I found my players just keeping the ball and lining up against the back 4 and not doing anything but passing back or taking long shots. My team seems to play much better when moving forward.

[Hdefte]

I tried everything - it just went from bad to worse.

After a lot of unstable resulsts, like just scrabing a win against the team at last place in the league, lots of draws and not alot that was succesful, I went on a 7 game losing streak, where nothing worked for me at all.

Generally I can't get it to work with a 3 man defense, I have to go 4 man with FBs. Most of the goals that I conceded came from their wings, and I tried out different things with my wingbacks/defensive midfielders. I dont know if thats the reason the lack of results, that I changed around to much. I'm tired of losing, so wont be trying anymore tonight, but tomorrow, I will give it another try, and see if I can get a decent tactic thrown together. I don't know if I should try with Napoli again, or go to another team, that have more normal fullbacks, for a solid back 4. Because this doesn't work. My wide players all had like < 10% crossing ratio, and that is just giving the ball to the opposition.

[drinkmixer84]

Hey Hdefte, I'm going to expand this post a bit but before you call it a night...are you waiting until the formations become 100% fluid before declaring the tactic as a failure?

Edit:

Alright going off the latest formation picture here's my adjustments I think could fix this formation for you...

1st off i'm happy to see you're using basically my favorite 3 at the back formation. The 3-4-1-2. That being said I think you need to change one of the WBs to support, because with both of your WBs bombing forward you're leaving the flanks wide open for a counter attack.

2nd I have the most success with 3 at the back formations when i keep possession, which is why i like to use the strategy: Control. Also i notice you have playmaker unchecked but its setting it automatically to your DLP. I would either set your playmaker to your AP amc or set it to none.

and lastly i dont know if i like your partnership of CF-A and DLF-s. If you want to use the DLF-s you should have Cavani as an Advanced Forward-A.

Just my opinions, if you end up going with a standard 4 at the back let me know as i feel a lot more confident in my knowledge of those formations. Also one other thing I wanted to point out to you. In FM13 your teams morale is just as important as tactics (pretty much). Once your team lose 2 games in a row or draw 2 games in a row against weaker opposition I'd recommend doing a team talk before the next game and encourage them to kick on and get the positive atmosphere back in the locker room. You'd be surprised how much i've been able to overachieve just by making sure the right atmosphere is in place.

[Hdefte]

Well almost, all of the elements of the tactic is pretty much at 100% and formation I think it is called, is around 65-70% I would say.

But if it was how well the players was familiar with the tactic/formation, wouldnt i see an improvement in the games when i played more into the season?

Because om experience it a bit opposite, where the performances pretty much drop through the games I played with the team. (Not counting the very first against Juventus, where the tactic had some big flaws)

Edit:

Thanks for the advice, I will give them a try tomorrow...

I tried both with them as wb-a and wb-s both seemed to get overrun quite a bit. Maybe that is something to do with me not being able to finish my attacks, but getting hitted on the counter.

Didnt know about it setting the playmaker as DLP as automatic, well that could be quite a good reason that i never make anything happen upfront. That is something I will have to change for sure and see how that work out.

If im using Cavani as Advanced Forward, will I still be able to pressure the penalty area well enough since he likes to come deep for the ball? Or should i just put him as DLF and they Pandev at AF? Because I really have had problems getting to any real good chances this game.

...oh and the last thing is going to be quite hard, I will be starting over, because I was quite frustrated, so i deleted the save game....I wasn't only frustrated at the game, but also at a match irl, where my team was about to lose even though they where playing brilliant...so in a moment of weakness and frustration, I hitted the delete button....But its okay, I will be using my saturday to give Napoli another try I think.

[drinkmixer84]

Yes and no, lets say after 20 matches you reach 100% tactic familiarity but if you're on a 5 game losing streak heading into the match where you finally have mastered the tactic, chances are there's a high probability of you losing that match unless you do something team talk wise to turn it around.

Edit:

With the striker combination, I would recommend Cavani as a CF-S and the other striker as an AF-if he has the attributes necessary...this also makes sense why you were having trouble, the DLF-S was dropping deep to get the ball and Cavani as a CF-A was dropping deep as well sometimes because of the PPM. With no striker pushing the d line back the amount of space is going to be a big issue for your attack.

[drinkmixer84]

One other question for you. With the system you have in place, could you describe for me the ideal build up and goal?

If you are imaging a through ball to a pacey striker, its extremely more difficult in FM13 because of collision detection, ie: strikers can't just run thru the middle of a defender.

[Hdefte]

Well my thoughts have been mostly on through balls, either from the WBs or from the midfield, since I have so much pace in my frontline.

It is hard for me to describe but I imagine either the WBs or the one of the central midfielders make a through ball when Hamsik and Pandev is making the run towards their penalty area. The space have to be created after Cavani comes deep a bit and maybe is getting used as 1-2 with the player that is making the assist. But if that is quite hard to make happen I have to come up with some other ideas... But ofcourse its not like the first pass, when i have the ball, I dont mind passing the ball around the field a bit, so I can open the defense that way. In general I like having the majority of the possesion in a game.

But im quite positive for tomorrow with the new inputs you have given me. But I will also have to improve on analyzing the game, both while its going on, and after, to spot any flaws in the movement or passing patterns that my players have in the game.

[drinkmixer84]

There's some excellent posts on this forum that will teach you how to analyze your matches, let me grab the links here for you...

Zan's Guide to watching matches and making adjustments

This one is from FM12 but it doesn't matter as its from Cleon and its really what helped me start analyzing my own matches and making adjustments:

The Full 90 minutes, what i do

Also with what we talked about and the ideal goal/buildup in your system, check this article out:

FMcoffeehouse's tactical analysis crooked 4-2-3-1

Even though this is for the 4-2-3-1 there's so many great concepts in this article, ie: attacking from different areas of the pitch, having a backup plan built into your tactic, etc.

There's so many great resources for FM13. I'll admit I've never done as much research as i have with FM13, but its no coincidence that i have found FM13 not only the most rewarding but the most fun for me in the end. I would highly recommend checking out one of the first posts stickied on this subforum, "Resources, Websites, and Blogs."

Let me know how the matches go tomorrow, good luck!

[Hdefte]

Thanks a lot for all the help, I have been reading the top 2 links you gave about what to do during the match, I had been reading them before, but that is some time ago.

About the changes to the tactic, im really surprised, in a positive way!

After 3 matches, 2 against Juventus and 1 against AC Milan.

The supercup against Juventus, I dominated the whole match, but my team got a red card while being up 1-0...I held it to the 95th minute, where they got a penalty, I could have killed a puppy at that time because I have played so well up until then. But luckily I manage to make a goal in the very end of the match, so after 120 minute the result was 2-1 for me. So that was well deserved and was very pleased about that.

Next match against AC Milan I dominated yet again and won 3-1, they got a lucky goal and had 1 other chance after a Balotelli freekick, but other than that, I never felt like losing that match.

Then I just finished playing against Juventus, and had to make some changes in the line up due to injuries, so my front line wasn't the best players, Pandev was tired and was benched + Hamsik was injured. So I was quite surprised that I could dominate the match against the top seed team yet again. The match ended 1-1, I just couldnt make that second goal, even though I had quite a few chances and had the ball most of the match. On a good day I would have made that 2-1 goal, but that just didn't happen.

So until now, I am very positive about the changes to the tactic and how my team is performing until now. Hopefully the team will keep it up over the coming games. I still need to work on the midfield, so I can make use of the possesion I have, but that will come with better players + when they tactic is 100% fluid. Maybe I will return with more questions, when it all goes wrong again But it has been very helpful with the advices you have given me.

[drinkmixer84]

I'm glad everything is working out...with FM13 i found myself in the same situation as you, when i first started it was like banging my head into a wall...but what Cleon said in the third post is what i changed and i've been enjoying the hell out of fm13. I stopped looking as my tactic vs the ME, instead i looked at it as my tactic vs real life football match engine(im trademarking that term SI so backoff lol). This ME isn't perfect but i'll be damned if it isn't pretty close to a real football match (in terms of adjustments and the results on the field).

If you wouldn't mind posting a pic of your now current tactic? Hopefully no meltdowns for at least a season!

[Hdefte]

I'm glad everything is working out...with FM13 i found myself in the same situation as you, when i first started it was like banging my head into a wall...but what Cleon said in the third post is what i changed and i've been enjoying the hell out of fm13. I stopped looking as my tactic vs the ME, instead i looked at it as my tactic vs real life football match engine(im trademarking that term SI so backoff lol). This ME isn't perfect but i'll be damned if it isn't pretty close to a real football match (in terms of adjustments and the results on the field).

If you wouldn't mind posting a pic of your now current tactic? Hopefully no meltdowns for at least a season!

It have been so fun playing again, really refound the joy of the game, after posting this thread and got some help. Sat up the whole night playing, just like the good old days

No meltdown until now, only the ocassionaly **** ups in single games. But that is to be expected from time to time, so nothing unnatural there. The season have been so great, im in 1st place in the league at the moment, the final in the cup and progressed from the group in Euro league. I seem to play best against the bigger teams, i havn't lost to AC Milan, actually I have dominated them, and some really close encounters against Juventus. The smaller teams, gives me the biggest problems. I didnt make any signing the first half of the season, but I have signed Ekdal from Fiorentina, to use om my DLP position, so i could move Hamsik up on AMC position, I have used him a lot on the central midfield, since he has some really good passes to set up attacks, which Inler cannot provide in the same way.

Also after understanding the tactic better, it has been much more fun looking for new players, since I have larger knowlegde about what the positions do in my tactic, which makes it easier to sign the right players, to improve the team. Before I would just look at the stats and press SIGN THIS PLAYER! Now I give it way more thought.

The tactic and starting players look like this at the moment:

[Hdefte]

Okay so the first season is done now....Overall i am very pleased, but the team did underperform at the end of the season. I ended up in 2nd place behind Juventus, which was totally deserved. My strikers couldnt score, and my defenders didnt have the best games either. I was having an advantage going into the last games, but threw it away.

How ever, I did manage to win the cup, after beating AC Milan 2-0 in the final. So as I'm very pleased how it turned out. It is so many times better, than what I manage to get out of my teams before. I am looking forward to the 2nd season, where I need to look at my defense because a few players are leaving, plus I will need to get some better back-up players, since my start XI is top class. Plus I will be looking forward to compete in ChL

[drinkmixer84]

Very nice! So what I think you should work on is your team talks now. When you mentioned that lower rated teams were giving you issues, this screams player mentality problem. Whenever you play matches you should always keep the body language widget up. Chances are by the end of the season you had put too much pressure or too little pressure on the team. I believe it was wwfan that posted an excellent team talk guide. I'll try to find it here in a few...

[Hdefte]

I already have that widget up, however sometimes it seems quite random who makes the mistakes. But I am using that, the Assistant manager feedback stuff and match statestics. I have considered using opponent body language to so i might be able to force them to make some mistakes.

There is however one thing I have a few problems with, that is the lack of dicipline in the squad, I get so many cards. I have just hired a coach with 20 in level of dicipline, plus im warning/fining them for being sent off. Doesn't seem to help tho'. Is it due to me closing down on my opponent a lot? Or can it be other reasons?

[KevMaaan]

I already have that widget up, however sometimes it seems quite random who makes the mistakes. But I am using that, the Assistant manager feedback stuff and match statestics. I have considered using opponent body language to so i might be able to force them to make some mistakes.

There is however one thing I have a few problems with, that is the lack of dicipline in the squad, I get so many cards. I have just hired a coach with 20 in level of dicipline, plus im warning/fining them for being sent off. Doesn't seem to help tho'. Is it due to me closing down on my opponent a lot? Or can it be other reasons?

The people picking up the cards, do they have bad technique? I believe tachnique can effect how well you tackle.

[Hdefte]

The people picking up the cards, do they have bad technique? I believe tachnique can effect how well you tackle.

Not really. This all have 10+ in technique, however some of them have a bit low decision rate, but does that matter, when im not hard tackling?

[drinkmixer84]

Do you have any players with the PPM dives into tackles? Closing down shouldn't have anything to do with tackling hard. Maybe the CD stoppers have their personal instructions to hard tackling? What guys are picking up the most yellows?

[Hdefte]

The one CD that I have set to stopper, that has to be expected, but then nearly all my central midfielders, and my wingbacks. In general I often get asked about my squads lack of dicipline, so it is pretty much in general that I get quite a few cards.

[KevMaaan]

Check them for "dives into tackles" ppm, and maybe set the tackling to more cautious. Perhaps the players are getting frustrated and wound up by the opposition and are making angry decisions.

[Hdefte]

Well I have made a few changes on the tactic and the squad for the new season, so hopefully it wont be as bad. I had to sell a player because he was bitching about getting fined after getting 2 yellow into a red card after 25 minutes >_< I will look through the ppms and see if there is something I can do there.

[drinkmixer84]

If i'm having issues with players picking up fouls I also use the shout "Stay on Feet" so you could also try that as well as a short term fix.