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Some Thoughts About Potential Ability

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My understanding of potential ability-its a number which indicates how good a player can become or peak at. So if Oriol Romeu has a fixed PA of 165 then he cannot get better than 165 no matter what, thats the best he can do. On the other hand a -9 indicates a player is yet to have a fixed PA, and this will determined by training, tutoring, experience. So someone who has gotten the best grooming and development might eventually get a fixed PA of 180.

So for younger players the PA is flexible. Makes sense. But what about older players? Doesnt having fixed PA's for older players limit the game in some way. In sports and life you have late bloomers or late developers. Maybe a researcher wont know much about the player because he is playing at a lower league, and is very low profile. But a bigger club signs him, and all of a sudden the 25 or 26 year old blossoms into a top player who competes with the best in the league. Lets talk about two examples. Miguel Perez Cuesta or Michu was practically an unknown player before July 2011. He joined Rayo as a 25 year old (His first La Liga experience). Instantly he became one of the leagues top performers. He joined Swansea on a high, but the PA he was given in FM2013 was quite low. It was not until he impressed for the next 6 months that he was given a higher PA in a new patch.

Another example-Jonas Goncalves Oliviera of Valencia who joined Valencia at the age of 28 for a transfer fee of only 1.25 Mill Euros. Even Valencia fans knew very little about this mans ability. But in the last couple of seasons he has become one of Valencia's most important players scoring goals and creating assists. In FM2012 he had a low PA, but eventually in FM 2013 he was given quite a decent PA.

Yet another example- Guilherme Siqueira. A Brazilian/Italian left back who only made his mark a couple of seasons ago at 25 after joining Granada. Before this he was playing at a lower Italian league. And now at the age of 27 he is so highly rated, he is even on Manchester United's shortlist.

Unlike real life, you cant seem to do this in FM. Playing with a top club its very unlikely you will sign a low profile player who may very well have a low PA. So isnt there a chance a PA of even older players are made flexible instead of fixed. Not all players stop developing at 22-23. Some start developing at 26-27. Better training facilities, coaching, exposure does the trick. A relatively unknown late bloomer can become world class. Imo the whole FM experience will improve if this is enabled, no matter how challenging the path is. Instead of solely relying on what your scouts say, or finding the PA in the editor you can sign a rough 26 year old gem (Possibly even from a lower league) who can be molded into a world class star. Your options increase and there is no end to someone's growth. As your club progresses there is always this tendency of selling players with lower stars/rating. This doesnt quite happen in irl. A flexible PA means the players dont stop growing. Not saying they should have the ability to become a Messi or a Ronaldo. But what if a player with a PA of 144 really has the ability to get to 154?

Look forward to feedback from SI. Look forward to a FM2014 with more improved features which simulates football in real life

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Your understanding of the -9 example isn't quite correct, you're right to say that the database record does not give a set value for the players PA however as soon as the game is created FM will apply a fixed PA to any player with a -10,-9,-8, etc PA with the value defined by the range set for '-' value he was assigned.

As for the rest variable PA has been discussed before & is generally considered to be a very bad idea that could be game'd to ensure that all players hit 200 CA. It's also worth mentioning that with the changes to training & player development in FM13 it is much harder to rapidly push a player to his PA limit, on may save there are many cases of player never hitting their PA & some examples of players improving later in their career.

There is room for improvement in this area but that can be achieved through better use of the mental attributes, including the hidden attributes as nearly every case of a late developer in real life is an example of a player who always had the ability but who for one reason or another was never focused enough to apply that talent.

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Thats true no doubt. PA cannot be limitless, otherwise any player can climb and climb. But it should be perhaps given a bit more flexibility to address late bloomers/developers. For instance in the case of Michu obviously you cant give him the PA of Cazorla or Goetze. But in real life he is performing at a level much higher than the PA he was initially given. So perhaps a bit more flexibility should be given. Michu can perhaps reach 160 under the right circumstances instead of being limited at 155.

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I think you are working under the assumption that if player A has more CA than player B, player A must definitely be better than player B. I think you also assume that once a player has reached the full extent of their PA, that they can no longer improve. Neither of these are the case. It certainly is possible, through redistribution of attributes, for a player who has reached his PA at 24 to blossom as a player only in his latter twenties. CA and PA only reflect the attributes a player can have, not how effectively they perform. The game does reflect reality in this regard because late bloomers can exist, and to determine whether or not that can happen by looking at CA and PA wouldn't be accurate.

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Good to know. So what does CA and PA really indicate?

Suppose i play with a top team like Real Madrid (Where all players have a very high PA), and i pluck an unknown striker from a foreign league with a PA of 145. Can this player really deliver? In other words can he say score more goals than Higuain and Benzema who have a much higher CA and PA?

Also do explain the difference between reaching PA and blossoming in late twenties. So a player has a PA of 160, he reaches it at age 23-24, how can he blossom further as he becomes 28-29. Isnt he already playing at his peak at 23-24?

Thanks guys, i have been playing FM for a while but this is an eye opener.

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No, the player might have used up all his PA points but they could be poorly distributed to areas that are of little benefit to the position(s) he plays in, with the right attention to his training a manager can move CA points to attributes that are more crucial & this could see him become a more effective player.

Edit: As for the first part of your question a player with lower CA can be more effective, I've just check the CA of my players & our most effective striker (best shot on target & goals per minute ratios) has a CA of 147, this is better than my main striker who has a CA of 169 & has forced me to sell 2 strikers who have CA's of 172 & 177.

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As for the rest variable PA has been discussed before & is generally considered to be a very bad idea that could be game'd to ensure that all players hit 200 CA. It's also worth mentioning that with the changes to training & player development in FM13 it is much harder to rapidly push a player to his PA limit, on may save there are many cases of player never hitting their PA & some examples of players improving later in their career.

While this is true, I can't see a flaw to players having a set high PA that is absolutely hidden to everyone and everything in-game until they bloom late, a la Drogba

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It can't be hidden from the game though, the code needs to know the PA value otherwise every player will have a 200 value & even with the less gamey training module the human manager would still have the ability to develop a group of 15 year old players into superstars regardless of their starting point.

Drogba wasn't a late developer, he was 23 or 24 when he moved to Chelsea & had already put in a couple of excellent seasons in France before the move.

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It can't be hidden from the game though, the code needs to know the PA value otherwise every player will have a 200 value & even with the less gamey training module the human manager would still have the ability to develop a group of 15 year old players into superstars regardless of their starting point.

Drogba wasn't a late developer, he was 23 or 24 when he moved to Chelsea & had already put in a couple of excellent seasons in France before the move.

He was in French division 2 at 21, in the modern sense that is a late developer!

I suppose the likes of Grant Holt woud be a better example.

Well maybe eveyone and everything is a bit OTT, what I meant more is that, for example, every now and again there should crop up a player who scouts say is mid championship level PA, but then in their late 20s they become mid-premiership level PA, not through human gaming of the system but due to them being a pre-set 'late bloomer'. Would be hard to judge how often it happens though.

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That's a different subject to variable PA, as for Grant Holt he was just unlucky to be born English. :)

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That's a different subject to variable PA, as for Grant Holt he was just unlucky to be born English. :)

How? In no other country in the world would he be a top level footballer. Luckily for him the average English fan still rates a player who 'puts himself about' over one with actual skill.

Also, he's a one season wonder, not a late bloomer. World of difference.

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It can't be hidden from the game though, the code needs to know the PA value otherwise every player will have a 200 value & even with the less gamey training module the human manager would still have the ability to develop a group of 15 year old players into superstars regardless of their starting point.

Then the root cause should be fixed, which is the match engine (if you are gaming the match engine)/training module (if you are gaming the training module)/etc. There is no need to handicap the development of players.

Drogba wasn't a late developer, he was 23 or 24 when he moved to Chelsea & had already put in a couple of excellent seasons in France before the move.

26.

Luca Toni is another late bloomer.

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We've been through all this before & iirc the common consensus is largely in agreement with my position, fixed PA's need to remain in the game & it's the game itself that needs to develop in terms of players stalling in their progression.

As I've said before & it links in to my earlier post Luca Toni was always regarded as a very talented player but the feeling was that he lacked the desire & work ethic to fully realise his potential until he matured as a person, that is one area where the game is currently lacking.

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It can't be hidden from the game though, the code needs to know the PA value otherwise every player will have a 200 value & even with the less gamey training module the human manager would still have the ability to develop a group of 15 year old players into superstars regardless of their starting point.

Drogba wasn't a late developer, he was 23 or 24 when he moved to Chelsea & had already put in a couple of excellent seasons in France before the move.

The code needs to know a player's PA. The managers and scouts in the game don't though. The way it works already means a 200PA player can end up with 110 CA at 21 years old, playing in a lower league. Spot him and pick him up and he might be a late bloomer hitting or approaching his PA, but he probably won't.

PA works fine, as long as no-one can actually see PA, which without a cheat tool is the case now.

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We've been through all this before & iirc the common consensus is largely in agreement with my position, fixed PA's need to remain in the game & it's the game itself that needs to develop in terms of players stalling in their progression.

As I've said before & it links in to my earlier post Luca Toni was always regarded as a very talented player but the feeling was that he lacked the desire & work ethic to fully realise his potential until he matured as a person, that is one area where the game is currently lacking.

He wouldn't initially have had a high PA in line with the scouting guidelines. You wouldn't give a striker who bumbled about the second and third tiers of Italian football a PA that would put him as one of the best strikers in the world. So no, it is clear that fixed PAs isn't enough - you'd need to give him enough room to get that far to begin with - a value that would never be given in practice. This would work in an imaginary world where you can tell the future, but not in the real world.

On: "[To let them] develop in terms of players stalling in their progression" - why not just give them all 200 PA and let them fail to varying degrees? That way, a fixed PA is unnecessary but you get the benefit of players stalling (meaningless PA obviously still lets them do that) and late-blooming (for whatever reason, be it mental changes, environment changes, or plain old luck, as there is always room to develop).

In fact, this is surely more realistic, since by definition, your life is always some degree of failure against your "maximum" (although in this case, you don't know for certain what your maximum is, but I digress).

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Thread about PA - check

x42 covering old ground again - check

Its the same arguments you've raised time & time again over the last few years x42 and the answers have always been the same.

When Toni was in the second & third tiers of Italian football yes he had a lower PA in the FMs of that year, was it an issue? Not in the slightest because he was just another lower league player.

He improves IRL, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation. The FM around that time improve his CA/PA/attributes to match his real life ability, is/was it an issue? again not in the slightest.

Your issue as it has always been is the lack of late bloom ability in real life players who have not shown it in the real world but this is never an issue for exactly that reason.

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None of that changes by the fact the game would be more enjoyable if very occasionally someone could end up being much better than you are told they will be when they are 18.

Even with the recent talk on PPA and Barside's valuable goodscout/badscout experiment, I don't feel it happens enough in game to stop the user thinking that the overnight 'get scout report' report is the be-all and end-all

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None of that changes by the fact the game would be more enjoyable if very occasionally someone could end up being much better than you are told they will be when they are 18.

Even with the recent talk on PPA and Barside's valuable goodscout/badscout experiment, I don't feel it happens enough in game to stop the user thinking that the overnight 'get scout report' report is the be-all and end-all

I can't say I disagree with that Herbert.

In a thread from I think last week I suggested that the PA stars should be removed from the UI for exactly that reason. Possibly then replaced with something a lot more general - "I don't think this player will improve much", "This player is showing signs of improvement" or "This player seems to be on the decline". I would also suggest that these comments are only available from coaches/AMs and not from scouts so you would only see it for players in your own team.

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Thread about PA - check

x42 covering old ground again - check

Its the same arguments you've raised time & time again over the last few years x42 and the answers have always been the same.

When Toni was in the second & third tiers of Italian football yes he had a lower PA in the FMs of that year, was it an issue? Not in the slightest because he was just another lower league player.

He improves IRL, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation. The FM around that time improve his CA/PA/attributes to match his real life ability, is/was it an issue? again not in the slightest.

Your issue as it has always been is the lack of late bloom ability in real life players who have not shown it in the real world but this is never an issue for exactly that reason.

Of course it is an issue because a game from that era is wrong. The game would be superior if it was capable of adjusting itself to mimic the adjustments made in reality. i.e.:

- In reality: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, he gets a PA boost of X.

- In an FM world: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, he gets a PA boost of X.

(And possibly in the negative sense, too)

Of course, abolishing PA is one step further - if the PA value is going to change all the time, why bother faffing around with a moving target? It doesn't mean anything if it keeps moving around. Which is... sort of the point - PA really is meaningless other than the fact it's a hack to prevent players from skyrocketing in development should the user find some way of abusing the game (i.e. training/match engine).

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Once again we need to remind you that the data is assumed correct at the point of entry, it's only your own retrospective outlook & ridiculous expectations that produces an unrealistic result.

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Of course it is an issue because a game from that era is wrong.

It is not an issue because the game from that era is correct for that real life player in that era. It only becomes an issue 3/4/5 years later but by then we have had several new FMs and that player has had his skills adjusted to match his real life skills.

This has been explained to you many times x42.

The game would be superior if it was capable of adjusting itself to mimic the adjustments made in reality. i.e.:

- In reality: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, he gets a PA boost of X.

- In an FM world: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, he gets a PA boost of X.

(And possibly in the negative sense, too)

Of course, abolishing PA is one step further - if the PA value is going to change all the time, why bother faffing around with a moving target? It doesn't mean anything if it keeps moving around. Which is... sort of the point - PA really is meaningless other than the fact it's a hack to prevent players from skyrocketing in development should the user find some way of abusing the game (i.e. training/match engine).

A player who improves in the real world does not get a real life boost to his PA, he always had a higher "PA" to begin with.

Anyway this is old ground and you simply refuse to budge from your own stubborn viewpoint even when SI staff explain it to you.

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It is not an issue because the game from that era is correct for that real life player in that era. It only becomes an issue 3/4/5 years later but by then we have had several new FMs and that player has had his skills adjusted to match his real life skills.

This has been explained to you many times x42.

This problem only fixes real-life players and not regens. It only fixes the day-one scenario (and indeed, the "fix" might still be broken).

A player who improves in the real world does not get a real life boost to his PA, he always had a higher "PA" to begin with.

This has nothing to do with "real-life PA" boosts. PA is an FM creation. I'm talking about the PA as entered in-game.

Or, reworded:

- In reality: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, a researcher boosts his in-game PA by X for the next database release.

- In an FM world: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, the game boosts his in-game PA by X for the next in-game year (could be a smaller timescale, obviously).

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- In an FM world: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, the game boosts his in-game PA by X for the next in-game year (could be a smaller timescale, obviously).

I think this would make it too easy to make players' PA suit your needs.

The PA should be fixed at the start IMO, or at least at a young age. It is then my opinion it should be hidden from scouts/AI/rep calculation etc.

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I think this would make it too easy to make players' PA suit your needs.

As in, by your idea, if you are the world's top club, the players you play become the world's top players. I don't think this would be the case IRL.

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Been mentioned before, just trying to clarify even more.

A negative PA like -9 does NOT mean that the PA of such player is not fixed at the beginning of each save. The contrary is true. Also these players will have a fixed PA. At the creation of each save these players will randomly get a fixed PA which derives from the range of PAs to which their respective negative PA refers.

This has the upside that there is some more viariation as a certain player may have a 165 PA in one save and a 180 PA in another. In any save he will however have a fixed PA which is not influenced by any means of nurturing or development. Those only affect CA.

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This problem only fixes real-life players and not regens. It only fixes the day-one scenario (and indeed, the "fix" might still be broken).

For real world players - researchers don't have and never will have crystal balls so will never know which players will late bloom and deserve a higher PA. This is something that can't be changed unless we start adding some random which I would be all for but others seem to prefer it the way it is.

regens/newgens work perfectly because the coding is god and knows all their PAs from the moment they get created. I know you'll disagree with this as you always do but it is correct.

This has nothing to do with "real-life PA" boosts. PA is an FM creation. I'm talking about the PA as entered in-game.

PA exists in the real world in some form, always has, always will. FM replicates that through the ingame PA.

Or, reworded:

- In reality: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, a researcher boosts his in-game PA by X for the next database release.

- In an FM world: If he improves, plays in a higher league and gets a bigger reputation, the game boosts his in-game PA by X for the next in-game year (could be a smaller timescale, obviously).

The game never boosts a player's in game PA, it is set at the start of the save or when a player is created.

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I think this would make it too easy to make players' PA suit your needs.

Nah, that should just go down to player development improvements. If a player is able to hit CA 200, say, while averaging 5.00, playing no first-team football, and suffering many injuries, that is a problem.

A player should be fighting to scrap for every last attribute boost. There are many barriers to greatness in reality - first-team football, playing well, training well, having a good attitude, not getting homesick, avoiding major injuries, etc. - a player who has no reason to develop should not develop.

Or, as an example: It is extremely difficult for Barcelona to produce many top-class goalkeepers because there is only one goalkeeper position in the first-team. So for all we know, Barcelona might be holding 100 Peter Schmichaels in their youth teams but they will never all make it there. Even if they leave Barcelona, there are only so many goalkeeper positions at world-class sides worldwide. And again, first-team football is just one of the many barriers.

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I think this would make it too easy to make players' PA suit your needs.

The PA should be fixed at the start IMO, or at least at a young age. It is then my opinion it should be hidden from scouts/AI/rep calculation etc.

It is hidden from scouts/coaches etc, they only see a perceived PA I believe.

The coding does know the fixed PA though as it needs to.

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For real world players - researchers don't have and never will have crystal balls so will never know which players will late bloom and deserve a higher PA. This is something that can't be changed unless we start adding some random which I would be all for but others seem to prefer it the way it is.

regens/newgens work perfectly because the coding is god and knows all their PAs from the moment they get created. I know you'll disagree with this as you always do but it is correct.

It's not correct. It's a cop-out circular argument ("This regen's PA is correct because the game says it is."). The game, oddly enough, doesn't know at what age Messi will retire (until he actually does, in which case, I guess that makes us all gods). It's not all-knowing.

No programmer should ever be able to say "my code is correct". Software is built on human incompetence. You could argue software is always wrong (but hopefully less wrong as time goes on).

The game never boosts a player's in game PA, it is set at the start of the save or when a player is created.

My point is that it should, to be more accurate.

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But what about older players? Doesnt having fixed PA's for older players limit the game in some way. In sports and life you have late bloomers or late developers. Maybe a researcher wont know much about the player because he is playing at a lower league, and is very low profile. But a bigger club signs him, and all of a sudden the 25 or 26 year old blossoms into a top player who competes with the best in the league. Lets talk about two examples. Miguel Perez Cuesta or Michu was practically an unknown player before July 2011. He joined Rayo as a 25 year old (His first La Liga experience). Instantly he became one of the leagues top performers. He joined Swansea on a high, but the PA he was given in FM2013 was quite low. It was not until he impressed for the next 6 months that he was given a higher PA in a new patch.

Another thing concerning your point is that ability and performance are not the same thing.

An example from my FM12 Leicester save:

I have John Fleck and Ibrahim Affelay. Fleck has 2 stars ability and 2,5 stars potential according to my backroom staff, Afellay has 4 stars each.

However Fleck fits into my set-up as if he had been especially created for it. Attributes shape, footedness and PPMs tie into my tactic absolutely perfectly. He keeps being one of the best performers in the team, even though 'on paper' he is by far the worst player in there. And this is not a one off. It's like that for 3 seasons now. Could have gotten David Silva or Isco in this position, but I let them be because there is just no need for them if you have such a consistent top performer in their position.

Afellay on the other hand is one of the main stars of the team on paper. Yet, I never got him to perform on a similar level like Fleck. Not in Fleck's position, nor in any other. Now he is a bench-warmer, sometimes not even in the 18 men squad and a starter only in the LC and the EL.

This hopefully serves to illustrate that ability and performance should be separated, also IRL. The examples you gave are valid examples for late bloomers irl and FM should indeed be able to replicate this. However, also irl one should take the possibility into account that a 'late bloomer' may just be able to consistently overperform in special circumstances, like Fleck does for me. Vice versa they may have underperformed for a long time because their qualities were never employed optimally.

The concept of PA is thus less related to performance if you ask me. The big and important use of PA in my view is that it serves to provide a stable long-term game balance. Such balance would be a lot more difficult to reach by any other means.

That said, I would agree with someone who argues that the PA concept is not entirely realistic and that it is further subject to human misperception on teh researchers' side. However, I thoroughly believe that the PA concept serves the game extremely well and I see no reason to get rid of it.

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It is hidden from scouts/coaches etc, they only see a perceived PA I believe.

The coding does know the fixed PA though as it needs to.

I know it is, but it is my absolute conviction that the PPA system and room of errors by scouts is inadequate to accurately reflect the unpredictability of the careers prospects of footballers. Not the direction of error I'm specifically talking about just now, but has anyone ever had a look at an England u21 team from ~10 years ago?

However, the PPA/scouting debate has been done to death without any opinion given by SI (although a few bits of steering information were noted and appreciated), so there is no point in going through it in full again here.

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It's not correct. It's a cop-out circular argument ("This regen's PA is correct because the game says it is."). The game, oddly enough, doesn't know at what age Messi will retire (until he actually does, in which case, I guess that makes us all gods). It's not all-knowing.

No programmer should ever be able to say "my code is correct". Software is built on human incompetence. You could argue software is always wrong (but hopefully less wrong as time goes on).

Rubbish.

Its been explained to you many times over the years x42 but you always refuse to accept it.

Your issue is more to do with the way CA develops over the course of a player's career which is something in general most people have agreed with to some degree.

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Rubbish.

Its been explained to you many times over the years x42 but you always refuse to accept it.

Your issue is more to do with the way CA develops over the course of a player's career which is something in general most people have agreed with to some degree.

Why is it rubbish? "PA is correct because the game is god and says it is so" is circular reasoning.

I thought PA, if it were such a solid concept, would have a better argument than a circular one.

What would be so wrong with a game re-evaluating a player's PA over time?

jayahr got it right here:

The big and important use of PA in my view is that it serves to provide a stable long-term game balance. Such balance would be a lot more difficult to reach by any other means.

It has nothing to do with PA being a well-defined domain concept. It has everything to do with being a balance simplifier, nothing more.

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The OP makes some excellent points, and I believe that PA should never be fixed completely. There should be some room for a player to grow to a much greater level than he is supposedly capable of, but the circumstances would have to be right, such as happiness and good training in order for the 'planets to align' so to speak.

The problem is, development in any player is not an exact science, so I can't really suggest how this would work.

A few more legitimate examples of late bloomers: Leon Britton, Jimmy Bullard, David James (was much better at 38 than he was at 25), Jermaine Beckford (played non-league football until 23-24ish).

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I made a suggestion on a new PA system about a year back and I can't find the post, not can I remember how it went. :D

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I think the current system works, but is limited.

In terms of changing it, my understanding is that the major issue is of maintaining the balance of players in the database over a long period of time. With fixed CAs and PAs it is easy to know that there are roughly the same amount of good players in the world in 2100 as there were in 2013. A non-fixed PA would lead to problems in this way.

For me the failure of the current CA/PA system occurs when a player reaches his max PA. Suppose I have a 23 yr old 135/135 CA/PA Striker. His penalties are 12. I personally have a HUGE problem with the fact that the game says he is unable to improve his penalties, and this is far from realistic. I can accept limits, and he may never be a better player, but if he stayed after training every day for 6 months to practice penalties then his penalty taking would improve! This is a specific example and I don't believe this argument can necessarily be made against any other non-set-piece attribute. But that is failing number 1 imo.

Potential solutions to this: An "extra training" module (not the same as training focus) which allows players to improve above their PA. It would take a lot of time, and have varying results depending on factors like the attribute being trained, the attributes and personality of the player, the quality of the facilities, the experience of the coaches etc. I would anticipate that an increase in CA of 3 or 4 would be enough to quite significantly boost a players penalty attribute, for example.

For the second example consider a 22 year old defender who is 150/150 CA/PA. The player can't improve, fine. He is at his technical, mental and physical limit. Training him to improve his tackling to rise above 14 would be fruitless, as would training him to improve his acceleration above 14, and so on. Now suppose he gets an injury which sees his acceleration drop by 4 (his CA has dropped too). Now, magically, the player has the capacity to improve his tackling (he now has spare PA points). Considering his age, if I get things right with his focus during his rehab then I could end up with a player with 10 Acceleration and 16 Tackling. But how is this possible when 6 months ago his upper limit of ability at tackling was 14!? This makes no sense at all.

Possible solutions to this: Separate PA for technical, mental and physical attributes.

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Possible solutions to this: Separate PA for technical, mental and physical attributes.

In a sense it kind of already is. In as much as, as players age and enter their 30's, their physical atts dwindle and their mental improves.

Technical attributes being done separately could work IMO.

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It is a long discussed topic and I currently think that the feature of 'potential ability' can be further developed by separating it into 3 parts which are each independent to other:

1. physical potential should be determined by 'Natural Fitness' and the age of the player as it has already functioned in the game and it should be having nothing to with or be limited by the overall 'potential ability' we have now, because even if a rather young player has limited potential and has reached it, but since he is still young, he can still be physically improved.

2. mental potential ability which should be developed to be influencing the growth of mental aspect of a player, such that the player's mental ability should firstly be determined by his initial mental ability level, and his mental attributes should gradually increase with the match experience or other experiences he gained over the years as a professional football player.

3. technical potential ability should be functioned as it is currently in the game that not every one can be developed into a super player with amazing technical skills although he can gain steady but not drastic improvements through hard training.

In my perspective, if these three categories of potential abilities each be assigned with 1-100 of scale, among which the technical and mental potential should be rather constrained or controlled comparing with a player's initial current ability, and for example, Messi at age 16 could have 85/100 CA/PA for technical ability and 80/95 CA/PA for mental ability, and Nani at age 16 could have 75/85 CA/PA for technical and 60/70 for mental. The speed of improving ability is thus determined by the gap between CA and PA. And the physical improvement should be decided by how much physical training and time the player takes in daily training session or in a gym. For some players who don't like physical training in a gym his physical attributes will not increase and sometimes may fluctuate or even decrease and vice versa. The example of comparison could be Rooney vs. C.Ronaldo. So in my view, the physical potential is actually not a potential ability, it's an attitude, although it surely is affected somewhat by a player's 'Natural Fitness' attribute.

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Once I'm done with my FM13 save I might look for a couple of low CA/high PA players in their early 20's & see if I can knowingly replicate the clichéd late bloomer, I fancy my chances.

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Once I'm done with my FM13 save I might look for a couple of low CA/high PA players in their early 20's & see if I can knowingly replicate the clichéd late bloomer, I fancy my chances.
Try looking for low CA/low PA players in their early 20s and see if you can late-bloom them. Those are the bigger problems.

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Try looking for low CA/low PA players in their early 20s and see if you can late-bloom them. Those are the bigger problems.

Those are not problems because they are never destined to be late bloomers.

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The Valencia player example made by the poster, in my opinion, is an example of how people usually find it hard to definitely measure the ability of a player. It is not as that simple as in the game that we send scouts and then we know the ability (attributes) of a player. The player may not fully reveal what he has with his football talent under an predetermined circumstance. He might look like a total different person as he moved to another club or met a different style of coach. That's possible in real life and it's not that his CA suddenly drastically changed.

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A player with low PA indicates that he has little or no talent to start with, I have more than enough players in their mid 20's who are 50+ point from reaching their max PA.

Obviously you are incapable of accepting the concept & of course as you haven't played any FM since FM11 I don't think your opinion is of any value regardless of what you say about understanding cancer even if you do not suffer from it, or whatever nonsense you dished out last time.

Edit: A quick check shows that in my gameworld 15.47% of players aged 22-27 are 50 or more points short of their PA value, the number of possible late bloomers (I hate the phrase) will actually be higher as it doesn't factor in the players who are within 50 points of their PA but suffer from poor attribute distribution.

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Those are not problems because they are never destined to be late bloomers.
At the time, they were never perceived to have the ability to late-bloom.

What is entered is the perception. We know it's not the real thing because what is entered is changed every year. It's the perception that changes, not the real thing, surely?

Even so, are you really comfortable with the concept of "destiny"? Destiny is unfalsifiable and, to me, has no place in a game that aims for realism. Would you feel comfortable adding more destiny into the game, such as not being able to beat a team ("It seems they were never destined to beat them after all...")?

A player with low PA indicates that he has little or no talent to start with, I have more than enough players in their mid 20's who are 50+ point from reaching their max PA.

Luca Toni would never have been perceived to have a world-class PA while he was stinking up the third tier of Italian football. Late-blooming relies on the researcher's ignorance in judging talent (in a positive way).

Obviously you are incapable of accepting the concept & of course as you haven't played any FM since FM11 I don't think your opinion is of any value regardless of what you say about understanding cancer even if you do not suffer from it, or whatever nonsense you dished out last time

The concept of PA hasn't changed. Sure, SI might have reweighted it or tweaked with how it is used, but the concept of a destined, unfalsifiable limit that nobody knows without a crystal ball has to be one of the most weakest concepts to stick in a realistic simulation.

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There is no destiny, if there was then every player would hit their PA as that is their destiny, clearly that is not the case.

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Thanks for all the feedback. This is more clear to me now. I do hope SI is able to do sth innovative with this regard. Game becomes more interesting.

For example: Irl Valencia doesnt have anything to spend in the transfer market. You really cant afford players with high CA/PA, high reputation. In FM you wouldnt want to sign Segunda players or low profile players. The scouts wont recommend, assistant manager wont recommend, with such players you will also be unable to challenge for a top position. But in real life Valencia makes a lot of bargain signings. Late bloomers plucked from a foreign league, or a youngster from Segunda who with the right training and experience becomes a leading player. This increases the options a manager has it his disposal. He no longer needs to listen to scouts star reports. He can simply look at the statistics, players attributes, get a few match reports from scouts then make a decision rather than solely relying on PA/CA

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Good quality players with low rep's do exist in FM, you just need to work smarter to identify them but that's as it should.

Of course there is room for improving in how the scouting system works when it comes to spotting & reporting on these lower rep talents & this is something that I covered in another thread.

Edit: Just checking my scout reports & there is a fairly decent 23 year old DM currently signed with Segunda division side Lugo, when I check his numbers he is a 94/165 player & is reportedly available for less that £250,000, is that the type of player you're talking about?

The main issue with helping this player reach his potential is that FM will not allow him to be tutored due to his age, a design decision that I hope SI will reverse.

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On the subject of clubs unearthing unknown talents that blossom into surprisingly good players I find that this is a perception issue unique to people living outside to bubble that is world football.

I'd imagine that in every case that people could bring up of a club signing a player that nobody had ever heard of the player would only be an unknown entity to Joe Public, inside the game clubs would be aware of the player & his talents but for one reason or another have decided to not make a move.

In the OP there was mention of Michu who is the prototypical example of the fan's & media's mythical unknown talent, he was only unknown in the UK because like every football nation we have a very insular perspective & as he didn't play for one of the big teams in Spain he very rarely appeared on our TV screens. Within football circles he would not have been so unknown.

It's the final part which is a tough transition to make in FM, we enter the game with the view of a football outsider however the game is trying to replicate the experience of a manager & in that world the unheralded but gifted player is less common than people might think.

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