What is SI doing to address customer complaints and frustrations ?

[prince0102]

There is a 160+ page thread on fm base uk which is probably the biggest thread I have seen on "Post your frustrations".

Is SI listening ? How are they addressing concerns.

Personally, I am so frustrated with the game. I think it should be called "Morale manager 2013". I am convinced that the game decides the outcome based on team comparison/ morale/ media prediction etc. and all the match engine does is play it out.

I think this game needs to be made more challenging but this is just a ridiculous way of doing it.

[wwfan]

Unfortunately, an awful lot of the fansites still perpetuate myths about how FM works, with the increasing influence of team talks, morale and media interactions being the most virulent. A lot of this discussion actually harms the FM experience for those involved, as it continuously makes the wrong conclusions and limits the possibility of the user appreciating or understanding the depth and richness of FM. As this site has illustrated and continues to illustrate, once you do appreciate this depth, you begin to enjoy FM more than you ever did.

I'm not sure what SI can do to stop the spread of myth and disinformation, other than to keep these forums open and active. The sales figures suggest that their strategy is the right one and the game's popularity is going from strength to strength. I don't think they can take the complaints and frustrations of those frequenting a small fansite too seriously I'm afraid.

[wwfan]

Indeed, having glanced through the thread you've mentioned, it seems to be a microcosm of the whole SI fora. You have one or two people vocally complaining that the game sucks, usually because they aren't winning. You have a few bad theories, regarding one notch of the slider making lots of difference, the AI cracking your tactic, or team talks being overpowered. You then have a few knowledgable people explaining how things work (Mike. The BetterHalf, ajt09), who invariably don't get listened to.

[hugo_rune]

I think some of those ideas have gotten to the level of conspiracy theories to be honest. People who have insights into the engine and/or developers tell us that's not how the game works. And those of us who have - to various degrees - mastered the learning curve understand that's not how the game works. But people cling onto them, because that's the only way they can reconcile the fact that they're not 'beating' the game (While in truth, they might actually be decent players, but their expectations are unrealistic because they're basing them on previous games that they were beating through exploits).

[prince0102]

Maybe you have figured out the ME and I haven't. Maybe you have been able to win easily even if team morale is low and I haven't.

Maybe it is conspiracy theory and ME is not a black-box.

I would still say that a company needs to listen to customers' feedback especially if such a large player base is saying it.

Having worked for a few companies myself I can say that not listening to customers has always been the #1 way of destroying a company . Only if you were Steve Jobs would I say you can survive without listening to customers.

[podunkboy]

What are they doing about FM 2013? Working on making FM 2014 better, I would suppose. I don't understand the complaints, I know very little about football (soccer over here), but I'm having a great time nonetheless. If you don't believe me, ask my wife, all she ever sees of me is the back of my head, sitting in front of the computer for hours.

[psycho1970]

Unfortunately, an awful lot of the fansites still perpetuate myths about how FM works, with the increasing influence of team talks, morale and media interactions being the most virulent. A lot of this discussion actually harms the FM experience for those involved, as it continuously makes the wrong conclusions and limits the possibility of the user appreciating or understanding the depth and richness of FM. As this site has illustrated and continues to illustrate, once you do appreciate this depth, you begin to enjoy FM more than you ever did.

I'm not sure what SI can do to stop the spread of myth and disinformation, other than to keep these forums open and active. The sales figures suggest that their strategy is the right one and the game's popularity is going from strength to strength. I don't think they can take the complaints and frustrations of those frequenting a small fansite too seriously I'm afraid.

FM Base is three times the size of SI Games forum so can hardly be called small, and SI Games should bear in mind these quotes -

“A happy customer tells one friend, and unhappy customer tells everybody.”

"Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning."

"Don’t try to tell the customer what he wants. If you want to be smart, be smart in the shower. Then get out, go to work and serve the customer!"

"I won’t complain. I just won’t come back"

And you mention sales figures being on the up is due to the fact they are the right strategy, I would suggest the sales are up more due to the early marketing with the enticement of a beta version. The true telling of how good or poor FM13 is will come when the initial sales figures of FM14 are released.

Hopefully though FM14 will be a success, as like last time they released a poor version they took on board the criticism and produced a worthwhile product.

[podunkboy]

FM Base is three times the size of SI Games forum so can hardly be called small

Well, crap, if that's true, what am I doing HERE?

[Guest]

Some of the posts are complete fabrications, I've never seen this happen in FM13.

Of the horrible things I've seen in this version I haven't seen that all too often and when I did I thought it was my tactic, striker mentality/creative freedom set incorrectly coupled with the hold up ball option ticked.

The one I see ALL THE TIME for and against is when the GK makes a save or defender Makes a tackle the ball goes of the pitch all the way to the advertising boards...GK simply runs off the pitch and picks it up and throws/kicks it back up the field...commentary says the "GK name" picks up the loose ball??

Erm corner?

Sometimes the lines on the 3D viewer are a little out of place but we're taking a foot or two at most, certainly not 4 or 5 yards that this poster eluded to.

[psycho1970]

Well, crap, if that's true, what am I doing HERE?

Just checked, not quite 3 times but FM Base membership = 441,000 compared to SI = 187,000:p

[Guest]

Another thing to remember about those types of threads is that there will be a number of people just posting about general a annoyance that has seen them lose a game or miss out on a new signing & has nothing to do with bugs so the size of it is can be a little misleading.

Just checked, not quite 3 times but FM Base membership = 441,000 compared to SI = 187,000:p

How many of them are bots & aliases? Not that it matters anyway as I'm sure someone at SI monitors the fansites.

[Cleon]

Just checked, not quite 3 times but FM Base membership = 441,000 compared to SI = 187,000:p

Just so you know the 187k is active members compared to FMB's 15k

[Cleon]

Another think to remember about those types of threads i that there will be a number of people just posting about general annoyance that has nothing to do with bugs so the size of it is can be a little misleading.

I've just had a read through and I'd say 90% fall under this category.

[psycho1970]

Just so you know the 187k is active members compared to FMB's 15k

SI doesn't mention whether active or not, but due to this being a official site you would see people posting one off threads more here than on FM Base where people use it more for downloading and general reading/information.

[podunkboy]

Just checked, not quite 3 times but FM Base membership = 441,000 compared to SI = 187,000:p

just checked in over there - gave me an ice-cream headache. ad/spam posts, posts with some guy following a player on Twitter wondering why the player won't respond to his FM-related requests, database threads where they want you to go to another forum, register, translate it from the ancient Greek before downloading...meh, I'll stay here, I think.

[psycho1970]

Another thing to remember about those types of threads is that there will be a number of people just posting about general a annoyance that has seen them lose a game or miss out on a new signing & has nothing to do with bugs so the size of it is can be a little misleading.

How many of them are bots & aliases? Not that it matters anyway as I'm sure someone at SI monitors the fansites.

536 Spammers Denied Registration

128 Spammers Permanently Banned

162 Spammers submitted to StopForumSpam

52 Spammers submitted to Akismet

954 Spammy Posts Automatically Moderated

FM Base takes Aliases quite seriously and often monitors IP adresses, infact there was I guy on there 2 years ago who had about 20 aliases and they banned his IP address, whereas the same guy had several on here and despite SI being informed they did nothing.

[Guest]

As I said I do not think that size matters in this case, the important aspect is whether anyone at SI visits the site & on that front I'm sure they would. What I don't think they would do is investigate specific bugs based on posts over at FM-Base & if anyone over there really wanted issues to be looked at they should be posting about them in the bugs forum over here.

[imp44791]

They will never do anything, as long as there is a posse of defenders coming out with variations of "It's Your Tactics" on every complaint (I'm not going to use the f-word to describe them, but you all know the type). In my case it doesn't have to do anything with winning or not winning, as I'm always playing LLM and defeat and frustration are a part of that experience. It's all to do with the ME destroying all immersion. I have boycotted '13 and will probably do the same for '14 unless the feedback is overwhelmingly positive from Day One, but the 11-12 ME is an exercise in unrealistic frustration. Players (both AI and human) hit the woodwork more often than the net. The team (AI or human) dominating shots and CCCs by 25-3 and 7-1 respectively only manages to draw at best. Transformed AI opponents at half time ON EVERY SINGLE GAME. Those infernal streaks (winning or losing) due to the silly morale simulation, leading to absurd records like Man U's in my recent LLM game (I was in the Championship) of 35-0-3 with a 22 game winning streak, or another AI side in my league finishing 21-7-18. There are simply not enough draws. Add to that the repetitive busy work of the obligatory press conferences, the absurd team meetings, the whole kindergarten teacher role you tend to have to play with your players. I know that real players are also spoilt kids, but the difference is that in real life managers can use more varied and nuanced phrases than the 3-4 options you get in the game. Let's face it: it's impossible to simulate human relationships (because that's basically what they're trying to simulate) as a half-arsed module in a computer game. The same holds for the media module. It's just impossible to simulate reality there. So, how about focusing on what people really want to see simulated, i.e. football and tactics.

I don't think that there is a single player out there who will go our and say "my favourite bit in FM are the press conferences" or the player meetings. We play the game for the player recruitment and the tactical fiddling. Our imagination does the rest. We don't want the game to give us canned press conferences with the same 10-15 phrases over and over and over again. We can do them in our minds when we're having a shower or sitting on the toilet (famously). SI should focus on what they do best: the player database (where they are indeed the best) and the tactical and training aspects. I hear that '13 changed the tactical system, and that's a very good sign. Hopefully they keep on that track and also work hard to make the matchday experience more immersive. I don't say "realistic" - just immersive. Football is unpredictable, but the ME keeps giving those repetitive strange occurences (like the woodwork strikes in FM 11-12) to totally destroy that immersion. That's where the effort should go, and the developers should just admit that the media and player morale modules were a bad idea and abolish them. I'm not saying abolish morale altogether (that would be silly), just hide it and certainly take away obvious "buttons" (right and wrong) that the player can press to affect it.

[davebl2012]

Another boring thread!!! I can't win a game boohoo!!! I want to come home and play the same tactic against Barcelona as I do against millwall and still win!! I want to play for an hour and learn the whole game and never lose! It's an in depth simulation! Put the effort in and get the results out!!

I have played for years too and I manage to win, it's taken a lot longer on this version and remember its a 'new' game, fm 14 (13.2) will be much proved having learnt from mistakes made here!

Bet you don't cry as much when call of duty is released broken - you just notice it more when the game is this in depth.

And before you start that I'm defending SI, I have been very vocal about some failings on here but have learnt that ranting is not the way to get them to listen nor will you be given any credit or valuable assistance!!

[Dagenham_Dave]

ON EVERY SINGLE GAME. .

This is the point where any thread of this type loses all manner of credibility.

[imp44791]

OK friend, let me then just say that it "looks as if the oppoisition is transformed at half time on every single game". As I think I made clear, it's a matter of immersion, not results. I personally prefer not winning all the time; in LLM it's rather the point. The human brain is made to see repetitive patterns, and the game is not doing a very good job in hiding these patterns. I don't know why or how this happens, and I'm certainly not going to give you conspiracy theories that it's "scripted" or "random". It's just quite apparent, like the woodwork strikes. The likeliest thing is that it's natural way the simulation as it's written gets to. What I'm saying is that breaking these patterns, or making them more realistic, should be the focus of development, and not saying the same things over and over again in some silly press conference.

[imp44791]

And to give another example that has no connection with results so that this whole hoary "It's Your Tactics" chestnut doesn't enter into it.

Is there anyone who enjoys the "pundit" comment before and after a match? You know, "Team X don't have a right to be happy with their performance, they were expected to have won it". Again, most people I know like to do these pundit discussions in their head as they're having their shower. In the game itself they just click past them as they're boring and repetitive. They have to be: how many silly stereotypes can you write in this bit? So, what was the point in adding them in the first place? I'm not saying that the programmers wasted too much time that should have been given to better things. I haven't seen their time sheets (if they have them) and I don't really care. The point is that an entirely useless piece of bloat was added to the game, that does nothing to add to the game and in fact gets annoying after the hundredth time you have to click past it. For a game that depends so much on the player's imagination (at least in its glory days it did) less is more. The same holds for the morale arrows for the opposition - a general comment should be all you should be able to see: "Team X seem to be downhearted after a recent series of bad results". Or "determined to turn things round". Or whatever. What's the point in knowing that the opposing AMR is "abysmal" rather than "very poor"? Again: it's bloat, and the game would be better for it if it weren't there. And it would also cut down on the conspiracy theorising, "ah, but I outshot the opposition 70-2 and they were all abysmal, so why did I not win?"/

[Dagenham_Dave]

OK friend, let me then just say that it "looks as if the oppoisition is transformed at half time on every single game".

If your team is winning at half time, isn't it more realistic to see the opposition AI change it round to counter your tactics? And is it possibly the case that you're not doing anything to counter this yourself? This version of the game, more than any other in the series, requires your full attention and proactivity. To me, that's more realistic than simply picking a tactic and watching you win (or lose) every game without the AI trying to change things round to counter it.

[imp44791]

When did I ever say that my own tactics are the same after half time ?

The beauty of real football is how it's often got imperceptible changes of momentum during the match as the players adjust to what they're encountering on the pitch. How many times do we not "sniff a goal in the air" when things are turning around? I don't see this in FM, but I do see lots and lots of half time transformations. Sure enough, they do happen IRL as well, but NOT VERY OFTEN. We'd like to think that managers are these amazing brainboxes whose cunning moves or inspirational talks (or flying tea cups) make a huge difference, and sometimes (rarely) it does happen like that. But more often it's all the hard work before the match (recruiting, training, and tactics) that makes the difference, as well as inspirational players who adapt on the pitch. Once the game starts the manager should not have a lot of power to change things, other than the odd substitution or sideline shout (that was certainly a great addition to the game). Players should be the ones to adapt, and in most cases gradually. Sure, let's have some half time transformations, inspirational substitutions, and amazing tactical adjustments. They do happen. But rarely. Or at least they SEEM rare in reality. Let them also seem rare in the game. Immersion is all.

EDIT: One of my favourite examples from recent high profile football was that Man U-Barca "Champions" League final. MU obviously came out both motivated and tactically fine tuned, and for about 10 minutes they were inspired. You could tell that the manager had done his homework brilliantly. Then you could sense the momentum shift, the Barca players adjust and the rest was history. That was a very enjoyable match for the neutral (as I was). How often you get this sort of effect in FM. Sometimes, though not very often. And it should be thus. But half time transformations should be equally rare, or at most only slightly more frequent) and they happen all the time, it seems.

[themadsheep2001]

Indeed, having glanced through the thread you've mentioned, it seems to be a microcosm of the whole SI fora. You have one or two people vocally complaining that the game sucks, usually because they aren't winning. You have a few bad theories, regarding one notch of the slider making lots of difference, the AI cracking your tactic, or team talks being overpowered. You then have a few knowledgable people explaining how things work (Mike. The BetterHalf, ajt09), who invariably don't get listened to.

I can attest to this (clarification for those who don't know, I'm Mike.)

I've followed that thread right from the start, and frequently post on it. There are some genuine concerns on there, I've thrown in a few myself, as I have done so on here, namely talking about the game needing more accessibility.

But honestly about 90% of that thread comes down to players' own unrealistic interpretations, various myths perpetuated about the game, conspiracies about the AI, and players needing to adjust their own approaches.

If anything should be taken from that thread, its inaccessibility. Lots of people get angry because they can't see why they are going wrong, it's not that they are doing badly, or doing well. They simply cannot see why, and as I've said before, it doesn't matter how many bugs you fix, if a player cant get to grips with the game they will give up long before they get to see all the depth in the game. Better feedback from the game is a must, for example a better assistant manager.

Off Topic: As for the size of the membership, I'd put easy money on SI having a lot more users who take the time to post on a semi regular basis, as opposed to large numbers who come in for the download. But size isn't relevant here, what's being said is.

[Svenc]

If anything should be taken from that thread, its inaccessibility.

Yes, absolutely. Partly SI set themselves up for it, be it by in-game tool tips that are outdated, or the lack of documentation proper full stop, as has been documented many a time, the underlying slider mechanics many go into are a nightmare in terms of usablity. It isn't helped by (from my experience) many using slider micromanagment in quite fishy ways -- whereas it has been inofficially documented for years that huge splits in "mentality" across all team disrupts both shape and play alike, it isn't unpopular for players to get it wrong or miss the inofficial documents (which they can only be blamed for this much). On its most extreme, at least in the German comm I've seen long-term players with thousands of forum posts under their hood who still didn't know what "run from deep" actually does and how it is linked to duties. Since the players in question appear to enjoy trial&error in parts until something "clicks" they still have fun with the grame a great deal as is apparent from their frequent activity.

Additionally, I'm not sure that really 100% of FM's player base has a decent grasp of the real-world football logics that have gradually creeped into the game's and ME's development. There are things you don't necessarily get from watching a bit of football, or playing yourself or coaching a lower league side. And even if you do, it isn't guaranteed that it's yet proper modelled by FM. Most frequently for instance keeping a ******** of players always at the back and still scoring very very frequently against all kinds of opposition - surely something highly illogical - was highly efficient. Yet it has been adressed by the implementation of defenders as something approaching a "phyiscal presence" rather than inefficient markers strikers off the ball can ghost straight through. And that is just the tactical side of things. You can go horribly wrong there, in particular if you don't keep things simple. (It's hard to majorly fail all the time in FM if you actually keep things simple).

imp44791 is right that there is a part of the crowd that dismisses input given by claiming "it's your tactics". However, this also goes the other way around. Out of frustration even inside knowledge from posters like wwfan or PaulC is sometimes outright dismissed, perhaps the most frequent throughout the years being the adressals of the "I dominate games statistically and yet frequently still draw or lose" post and its many variants. And every once in a while the only advice PaulC can give is to go back to an earlier game, as when it becomes obvious that due to shifts in the ME balance (physics, closing down, etc.) the user won't enjoy the current game much. Not everything is a bug, and not everything is down to the player. The challenge is finding out which is down to what, and made harder by ranting and trolling in between from both sides. Also, it's great that there is a "twelve step guide" somewhere available on the interweb – but really, such and similar information should ship with the game in some form or other.

[Things Could Get Messi]

Not wrote on here for a while but I'm not here to jump on any sort of bandwagon. FM12 to me is the best game of the series so far and I would of happily of seen FM13 stay similar with a new number of features and more of a challenge to be successful.

The main game did stay as it was but the match engine didn't. In the past you could set your tactics and the ME would take these into account. Sadly, the way it seemed to be on 13 was that you would have to set your tactics to whatever the ME dictated to be successful. All of a sudden the ME mattered more than what you had got in your team (or so it seemed). Some of the things that were happening in matches as well seemed very bizarre to say the least. Even a good goalkeeper would look clueless, defenders letting attackers get to the ball despite being 15 yards nearer, etc. I was quite simply horrified as we went from 1 extreme to another as each ME was released with SI saying they had been tested thoroughly which to me is very questionable to say the least. After 3 months of FM13 I felt I had no choice but to give up. My hope, faith and love of an up to date game had gone and since that day I have refused to even load it up as I felt let down as a customer.

I will admit that in the past I was one of many people trying to rush SI into giving us release dates but in hindsight it was a terrible thing to do. Getting FM13 pushed out early was the main problem as we could see from the word go that it wasn't ready enough to be purchased by the customer. Another 3 months of tinkering around to get it right or at least in a playable condition would of made things a lot better for everyone.

I still have some faith in SI and believe they will privately admit some mistakes and will be looking to get things right for FM14. I will be keeping my eye out for its release date and the list of improvements. Like many others, I have bought every single version of FM and used to buy the old CM games as well so I still have some loyalty. The only thing from now on though will be that I won't be pre-ordering and will insist on playing the demo before I part with my hard earned £30 as I still feel I wasted my money last year.

[Svenc]

I still have some faith in SI and believe they will privately admit some mistakes and will be looking to get things right for FM14.

They will certainly shy away from doing what they did: Publicly stating that the inclusion of some of the biggest ME overhauls in years had been decided on late in development – as many players twisted the words around to fit and used it as a springboard for their "SI knew the game was in no shape proper for release at all and used us as Beta testers for months" agenda.

[Guest]

The main game did stay as it was but the match engine didn't. In the past you could set your tactics and the ME would take these into account. Sadly, the way it seemed to be on 13 was that you would have to set your tactics to whatever the ME dictated to be successful. All of a sudden the ME mattered more than what you had got in your team (or so it seemed).

Your perception seems to be way off on this, prior to FM13 the match engines generally had a one-size fits all tactical approach, all it took was to figure out what that years must have tactic was & what type of player best suited the ME. Thankfully that is significantly less so now & I do believe there is much more variety in the tactical approaches taken by people playing 13 which is testament to the robustness of the ME.

[prince0102]

Customer feedback if you agree with it or not is still customer feedback that the company needs to look at.

You can deride the visitors at a site all you want or think that its all because of their tactics, it still does not change the fact that such a large part of the player base is unhappy with the ME.

If the root cause is to provide better help documentation then fix it. If its some odd coding that makes Morale effect double because it considers Effect of 1 team morale + Effect of opposing team morale, then fix it.

Bottom line is they need to fix it.

[themadsheep2001]

Customer feedback if you agree with it or not is still customer feedback that the company needs to look at.

You can deride the visitors at a site all you want or think that its all because of their tactics, it still does not change the fact that such a large part of the player base is unhappy with the ME.

If the root cause is to provide better help documentation then fix it. If its some odd coding that makes Morale effect double because it considers Effect of 1 team morale + Effect of opposing team morale, then fix it.

Bottom line is they need to fix it.

Umm no, if the complaint is based off totally incorrect info then they don't need to fix, because there is nothing to fix. It's not about deriding anything.

For example there is no odd coding on morale? So why would that need to be fixed when a problem doesn't exist?

The customer isn't always right.

As for feedback, there is a thread here every update. There is a bugs forum for people to post issues. It's hardly like there is nowhere to voice an issue.

[johnhughthom]

If its some odd coding that makes Morale effect double because it considers Effect of 1 team morale + Effect of opposing team morale, then fix it.

:confused:

So the game should only consider the morale of the player's team?

[forameuss]

Customer feedback if you agree with it or not is still customer feedback that the company needs to look at.

You can deride the visitors at a site all you want or think that its all because of their tactics, it still does not change the fact that such a large part of the player base is unhappy with the ME.

If the root cause is to provide better help documentation then fix it. If its some odd coding that makes Morale effect double because it considers Effect of 1 team morale + Effect of opposing team morale, then fix it.

Bottom line is they need to fix it.

But which bits of feedback should they listen to? If they took everything on, listened and then acted, the game would be a casserole of nonsense. They do listen to feedback, they've said as much, but they'll only act when they feel it is necessary.

Plus a lot of it reeks of "the customer is always right" which is a load of cringeworthy rubbish.

[Guest]

A very successful former boss of mine once told me that the customer will always think they are right but that as a rule the they are idiots who have no idea what they are asking for or why & unless proven otherwise should always be considered as idiots who need to be guided towards the right decision.

A similar approach should always be taken in creative arts like game design, if you constantly give customers what you think they want you'l end up stifling innovation. - See CoD for this in full effect.

Edit: With that said it's still important for people to feedback on issues within the game but to do so in the right manner, simply ranting & raving about how this or that is broken serves no purpose. A coherent bug report showing what you think has gone wrong will always be a much better approach, even more so if the person reporting a perceived issue can put forward a suggestion as to why they think something went wrong & if possible what could be done to make improvements.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I do see lots and lots of half time transformations. Sure enough, they do happen IRL as well, but NOT VERY OFTEN. We'd like to think that managers are these amazing brainboxes whose cunning moves or inspirational talks (or flying tea cups) make a huge difference, and sometimes (rarely) it does happen like that. But more often it's all the hard work before the match (recruiting, training, and tactics) that makes the difference, as well as inspirational players who adapt on the pitch. Once the game starts the manager should not have a lot of power to change things, other than the odd substitution or sideline shout (that was certainly a great addition to the game

My only response to this is that you've clearly never (properly) watched football. And by this, I mean not on 'Sky'.

[imp44791]

I'll give one more example that has nothing to do with winning or losing. Mind you, this is based on '12, since I never bought 13.

For every game you have to give two press conferences (sometimes you are spared, but it's the case about 80% of the time) and two team talks (always). You also have to go through the pundit opinion twice per game. Yes, I know that you don't have to look at what the silly pundit is saying and that you could conceivably send your assman to do the talks. But most people won't do the latter as they're afraid (justified or not is not the point, they're still afraid) that the assman will mess it up and as morale is supposed to be everything they will lose through no fault of their own. So they will go through these four incredibly repetitive tasks up to 50-60 times a season (depending on league size and cup success). That's around 200 times you will need to click on "I'm confident as long as we stick to our game plan" and "A good win boys, there were some positives to be sure". Even if this was fun the first time, by the 20th it got annoying and for any standard career save (Say of 5-6 years) we're talking about thousands of times you have to press through these same silly boxes. It's like being a hamster in a behavioural experiment. It's not just like "work", it's like a punishment.

This is insane. Why is this considered integral in a football management game? And though people have been complaining about team talks and their repetitive nature (not to mention those who think that the wrong talk can ruin a game) ever since they came out in 06 or 07 (memory, schmemory) not only were they kept in, but the bloat was increased by the almost obligatory press conference. Yes, I know "real" managers have to talk to the BBC and all that. But they can actually vary what they say, even if it's mostly cliche. They do not have to sift through the same 5 options to the same 10 questions all through their careers. So people are complaining; in fact, has anyone, EVER said they like the media and team talk module? Once? I think never. And yet, the response of the company has been to keep the bloat on and make it more bloated by putting more responses. There is NO way this will ever work. It's not possible to simulate all the nuances and possibilities of human interaction. So forget it. Stick to football management.

[imp44791]

My only response to this is that you've clearly never (properly) watched football. And by this, I mean not on 'Sky'.

Charming.

And we move on.

[Maystor]

I haven't read that thread but by far the most frustrating thing about FM 13 for me is bad (or good!) runs of form which feel incredibly scripted. I don't mean scripted in the sense that the user will lose no matter what, but more like how obvious it is in the match engine that a team is in a slump. Usually it doesn't take more than watching 5 minutes in full to realize how frustrating this match is going to be. Everything that could possibly go against you will do so. Your strikers just love hitting the post during that time. It's not really rare to see it happen 5 times a match, sometimes 2-3 times during the same attack. On the other end, the opposition will score most unlikely goals. The kind you just know it rarely ever gets scored in the ME. Or you'll concede riduculous penalties from deep crosses going to nowhere and your players apparently fouling the opposition without even an animation or anything.

All this is true when it's the other way around too. When the opposing team are in a slump for whatever reason it's amazingly easy to score against them. I've beaten many big teams away from home with such ease to the point it felt unrealistic. It certainly had nothing to do with any kind of tactical master stroke by me. Their players simply don't seem to be able to string two passes together and yet my inferior team are playing like Barcelona and tearing them apart. Tactics matter very little in games such as those and it often does make me wonder if spending time tinkering with instructions is even worth it then.

[MichaelBrown]

I'll give one more example that has nothing to do with winning or losing. Mind you, this is based on '12, since I never bought 13.

So you are moaning about the game how? Are you judging the game on the first patch? If so, I agree, it was horrific. However, it's vastly improved.

You cannot possibly have an argument when you have not even bothered to buy the final product.

[Guest]

I haven't read that thread but by far the most frustrating thing about FM 13 for me is bad (or good!) runs of form which feel incredibly scripted. I don't mean scripted in the sense that the user will lose no matter what, but more like how obvious it is in the match engine that a team is in a slump. Usually it doesn't take more than watching 5 minutes in full to realize how frustrating this match is going to be. Everything that could possibly go against you will do so. Your strikers just love hitting the post during that time. It's not really rare to see it happen 5 times a match, sometimes 2-3 times during the same attack. On the other end, the opposition will score most unlikely goals. The kind you just know it rarely ever gets scored in the ME. Or you'll concede riduculous penalties from deep crosses going to nowhere and your players apparently fouling the opposition without even an animation or anything.

All this is true when it's the other way around too. When the opposing team are in a slump for whatever reason it's amazingly easy to score against them. I've beaten many big teams away from home with such ease to the point it felt unrealistic. It certainly had nothing to do with any kind of tactical master stroke by me. Their players simply don't seem to be able to string two passes together and yet my inferior team are playing like Barcelona and tearing them apart. Tactics matter very little in games such as those and it often does make me wonder if spending time tinkering with instructions is even worth it then.

Isn't the bold part just like how it feels when you watch a real life team who are in a poor run of form? Sounds like it to me.

[imp44791]

So you are moaning about the game how? Are you judging the game on the first patch? If so, I agree, it was horrific. However, it's vastly improved.

You cannot possibly have an argument when you have not even bothered to buy the final product.

FM12. Not patch 1 of FM13

I think that after paying for over 10 iterations of the game over the years I have formed enough of an opinion of its direction. I don't hide that after the frustrations of the game since about 08 I have not felt any pangs for not buying 13, and will certainly not buy FM14 either, unless public reaction is overwhelmingly positive. And even then I'll wait for the final patch first.

[dooro23]

I personally don't give much about such an opinion, when you a) haven't even played FM13 and b) haven't played FM13, despite there being a Demo of it.

[themadsheep2001]

FM12. Not patch 1 of FM13

I think that after paying for over 10 iterations of the game over the years I have formed enough of an opinion of its direction. I don't hide that after the frustrations of the game since about 08 I have not felt any pangs for not buying 13, and will certainly not buy FM14 either, unless public reaction is overwhelmingly positive. And even then I'll wait for the final patch first.

Not really. If you had actually played FM13, you'd have known that, while certainly not being perfect, it is quite different to FM12. In fact I really don't see you can give any useful qualitative feedback on it's direction without playing.

[imp44791]

Have they removed the media and team talk module in '13?

[imp44791]

I personally don't give much about such an opinion, when you a) haven't even played FM13 and b) haven't played FM13, despite there being a Demo of it.

Good for you. I on the other hand, believe that games are entertainment, or should be, and I don't intend to spend 35 quid or whatever it is any more in order to say "I am confident as long as we stick to our game plan" for 200 times in a season.

After being increasingly frustrated for the last 4-5 iterations before '12, I finally decided not to bother unless reaction here and in review sites was overwhelmingly positive and I got information that the bloat was being removed from the game. I got the opposite impression, so I did not buy it. And judging by the usual polarised attitude in this forum between frustrated people (correctly or not, they are frustrated) and the auto-defenders of anything SI, not to mention the chippy attitude of the company representatives on occasion, I don't think I'll bother with future iterations either. And that is customer feedback they may or may not care to take into account, which was rather the point of the OP.

[dooro23]

Ok, what part of the word Demo didn't you understand?

[Jibby123]

....If anything should be taken from that thread, its inaccessibility. Lots of people get angry because they can't see why they are going wrong, it's not that they are doing badly, or doing well. They simply cannot see why, and as I've said before, it doesn't matter how many bugs you fix, if a player cant get to grips with the game they will give up long before they get to see all the depth in the game. Better feedback from the game is a must, for example a better assistant manager.....

So well said, and echoes what I've said a few times now here.

[Guest]

The bloat as you call it has been removed as part of a new game, it's called FMC & it ships free of charge with FM.

[Maystor]

Isn't the bold part just like how it feels when you watch a real life team who are in a poor run of form? Sounds like it to me.

It does indeed happen irl, when you sometimes feel everything is going against you etc but not to anywhere near the same extent as in FM. I realize being a computer game there will always be certain limitations but it is still incredibly frustrating to watch how this "scripted" slump in form plays out in the match engine. Very noticeable in parried saves by keepers and which player the ball falls to for example.

I appreciate confidence and the whole mental aspect of the game should play a big role, as it does in real life, but until we have tools to deal with it as we would in real life, it will always feel frustrating, especially if overdone like IMO it is the case with FM 13.

[XinaCrisp]

I actually like the media and team talks module. As barside said you can just play FMC and voila the bloat is gone. Or delegate those "boring" tasks to your Ass-man.