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jlawlor91

Football Manager has gone overboard with features

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The question about FMC should be whether people are simply after a faster playing experience or a less complicated one? The former can be achieved through the latter but IMO the desire for a quicker game shouldn't mean that the game world size is limited, I think that people could easily have a quick game when running a less complicated & involving 10 nation save on FMC.

I could be way off base with that statement as I am someone who didn't get further than a week into an FMC game as I immediately saw that the concept wasn't for me.

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I'm sorry if you see it as an 'unfair dig' Herbert, I'm addressing the points you are making, not you. That there is an alternative and it's FMC (removing things day to day responsibility wise and then some). It seems people are dismissive of the OP's argument by pointing to staff responsibilities as a cure.

The "FMC with more choice" is a different argument, not sure you can really apply that to the same situation about the amount of time things take. While there might be less day to day to worry about in FMC, with adding in extra leagues, etc at some point it would just be substituting the day-to-day time taken out for the extra processing in-between matches.

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That there is an alternative and it's FMC (removing things day to day responsibility wise and then some). It seems people are dismissive of the OP's argument by pointing to staff responsibilities as a cure.
I was wrting in response to someone specifying they wanted an alternative to the main game, which FMC isn't due to the lacking detail. They wanted an option for the detail of the main game without the responsiblities. The three versions exist on a scale, although of course there are a number of points in between the left and middle entries on my line below.

Main Game > Main Game with everything delegated > FMC

Neither of us were wrong, as both of our suggestions are on the scale, but mine much better suited the needs of the point I was specifically relying to, which is why I resented you butting in accusing me of a misconception, when really it is you making the misconception in thinking we were even talking about (including dismissing for all users entirely) FMC. (When I said having a dig at me I included my valid points in that, and I still think that whilst what you wrote is factually correct, your placement of it made little sense)

While there might be less day to day to worry about in FMC, with adding in extra leagues, etc at some point it would just be substituting the day-to-day time taken out for the extra processing in-between matches.

It would yes, which is precisely the point, as I explained above but you still seemingly haven't grasped. Whilst some users might want the game speed in terms of getting through in-game years in a number of hours, some users want the simplicity of FMC but with more leagues and are happy to concede some of the game speed in terms of flying through the years to get that, yet SI seem to equate game speed and simplicity as being 100% the same, when in truth they overlap.

P.s. - if the reason I can't edit/delete posts is because a mod took that right away from me, I invite whoever did so to PM me explaining what benefits it brings to anybody. Could just be some kind of issue with my browser though I guess.

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Let's move on now from the argument about the placement of your comment, as it is off-topic, but my point about the number of leagues in FMC is still worthy of discussion I feel

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I haven't done a press conference since they were first introduced.
why does nobody understand him? He is saying that his what he does, not moaning that he can't do it!

To be fair Herbet (and please correct me if I'm wrong Ackter) but I think he was saying that he also does not see the point in doing them as they are essentially worthless.

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They're not worthless as people can use them to their advantage quite easily.

I just can't be bothered with them.

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They're not worthless as people can use them to their advantage quite easily.

I just can't be bothered with them.

Fair enough, worthless probably wasn't the right word. I guess monotonous would be appropriate.

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FMC is just as slow for me as the main game. Running 1 league or Running 3 leagues - the UI becomes unusable due to how slow the game becomes after about 1 month of in game play.

I'm going to install it on my older laptop that I got in 2008 and see if works on that any better.

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Instead of fixing match engine bugs that have been around for years, fixing the boardroom interaction and the woeful transfer and squad management AI, they've wasted time on adding press conferences, then another year on adding more pointless 'tones' to press conferences instead of requested features like better financial information, expanded sponsorships and the ability to influence the creation of new stadiums to better match what you as the player (the most important part of any game) want to do with the club, as opposed to rudimentary and very short sighted boardroom AI.

SI also completely wrecked the training module, ripping choice away from the most long term and experienced users because they couldn't figure out a way to explain exactly what the training module was supposed to be done and used by new players.

FMC was a pointless addition, SI should have created a far more comprehensive pre-game options list, that people could choose to exclude certain modules, or to take more control over certain things (like the oft requested "Full Board Control" mode, where you have complete control over finances, squad salary, staff numbers, facilities and stadium expansions). It would have replicated FMC without actually having to make a completely seperate game type.

I bought FM13 and that was a complete waste of money. I've stuck with FM12 and won't be buying FM14.

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2013 is the best one I've played by far.

The training was always a problem for me on old games. It was far too time-consuming if you wanted any sort of results, and you couldn't delegate it. FM13's training is spot on. General training, match preparation and an individual focus. To me this is perfect.

'13 is one of the first FM games since CM 00/01 where I've been able to get decent performance out of a good team without a huge amount of work. I haven't won a trophy for over 5 years on FM until this year, but it's nice to be able to properly manage the team with out having to micro-manage everything. In real football the players are still the most important thing, and I think FM has finally realised that the manager has a lot of duties, but good players do not forget how to play football just because one of their mentality sliders is off by a click.

Bravo SI.

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Nope I disagree with you FM has evolved it's even become better game than it was in '09. It's evolved Miles and his rest of the SI team deserve a lot of credit. the way they've gone about improving the game.

Hi Miles.

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I do changes to my tactic when I need to, not as a main path to winning a match.

The rest of the strategic choices I make are player choice (both for matches and when signing them) and team talks/player interactions. If the tactic is good enough to make a difference, nothing else is really necessary, so if you need to make changes to your tactic every match you're doing something wrong (or something inefficient, at the very least).

The rest of the features are also not necessary to do with great attention to detail. Training; average + heavy individual (for top teams) targeting weaknesses. Match training; if you adhere to the favourite/underdog principle you might as well have the assistant take care of them. If not, find the one you like and stick with it. Coaches; don't worry about getting 5-star ratings. 3,5 is just fine. Scouting; cancel everything and set 2-3 in all the major regions. Don't worry about World Knowledge - unlike FM12 gems outside the big regions are very very rare. Don't bother "negotiating" contracts - they want what they want so either accept or move on. The assistant does a fine job with the press conferences - yes sometimes I see that some players drop in morale but it is easy enough to get it up again.

Yeah when not playing 2-player saves I holiday between matches. Cannot say I have spotted something negative happening because of this. Having nervous and/or complacent players, though, now THAT I notice.

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What machine are you on?!

I've sent all my stats to SI. It's an I7 2630 processor with 8gb RAM and a 1gb video card (think it's a 520m)

I haven't had a good experience with FM 13 at all. It's been a pile of crap and nearly melts my processor unless I run a fan beside directly beside it - and I've a laptop cooler already.

Maybe I'll go play it in the North Pole? At least I'll have the laptop to keep me warm...

And note - FM12 plays brilliantly - with over 10 countries, possibly closer to 15 running 3 leauges in each - it's fine.

FM13 - 1 team on FMC and it falls apart.

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2013 is the best one I've played by far.

The training was always a problem for me on old games. It was far too time-consuming if you wanted any sort of results, and you couldn't delegate it. FM13's training is spot on. General training, match preparation and an individual focus. To me this is perfect.

I've sent all my stats to SI. It's an I7 2630 processor with 8gb RAM and a 1gb video card (think it's a 520m)

I haven't had a good experience with FM 13 at all. It's been a pile of crap and nearly melts my processor unless I run a fan beside directly beside it - and I've a laptop cooler already.

Maybe I'll go play it in the North Pole? At least I'll have the laptop to keep me warm...

And note - FM12 plays brilliantly - with over 10 countries, possibly closer to 15 running 3 leauges in each - it's fine.

FM13 - 1 team on FMC and it falls apart.

I fully support what Woody states about training. I find that the new layout is definitely workable and I support a move away from the old regime where it was just about tinkering with sliders.

Eugene, I'm not really a computer man but I find it unbelievable that it's gone from two extremes in a sense. I worry for you when FM14 comes out.

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Eugene, I'm not really a computer man but I find it unbelievable that it's gone from two extremes in a sense. I worry for you when FM14 comes out.

Some of these mobile chips get very hot under load anyways, as it seems. Just googling for this specific chip and "temperature" brings plenty results, with people claiming the temperatures under load during game would approach 100 degress Celcius, ewww. You will even find official reviews claiming the same. Considering that the load of FM 2013 may indeed be a tad higher, it might cause problems with a laptop like this, in particular if the fans are dirty or something else is going wrong. We benchmarked FM 2013 and it was slower than FM 2012 -- full 90 minutes "real-time" match sim for the first time ever rather than slightly compressed previously, additional calculations (reworked physics, collisision avoidance, etc.), those are the very first changes that spring to mind. In particular as it's at the very least your own competitions that are fully simulated, and at its most every single one loaded up into the save.

Still it shouldn't cause problems with the computer, any computer operating in a reasonably temperated environment, with clean and working fans and the hardware setup being ok in general, I guess. If FM causes the machine to collapse, so likely any application with a very heavy CPU load would. There are many stress testing tools available -- if you fail at them, your system is unstable full stop. Try Prime 95, for example to determine whether it is really the game or your setup. During the record summer of 2003 I barely was able to operate my then PC in a room under the roof without the case open and a fan besides it myself. Personally I've started to downvolt my desktop components, keeps them cooler (less fan noise) as well as conserving energy.

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Training in Fm12 wasn't time consuming, people just refused to bother working out what each slider did. I could create an entire system of training sets in 10 minutes simply because I took the time to know what modules trained what.

SI should have made it easier for people to know what was going to train what, instead of ripping choice away from the user.

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Some of these mobile chips get very hot under load anyways, as it seems. Just googling for this specific chip and "temperature" brings plenty results, with people claiming the temperatures under load during game would approach 100 degress Celcius, ewww. You will even find official reviews claiming the same. Considering that the load of FM 2013 may indeed be a tad higher, it might cause problems with a laptop like this, in particular if the fans are dirty or something else is going wrong. We benchmarked FM 2013 and it was slower than FM 2012 -- full 90 minutes "real-time" match sim for the first time ever rather than slightly compressed previously, additional calculations (reworked physics, collisision avoidance, etc.), those are the very first changes that spring to mind. In particular as it's at the very least your own competitions that are fully simulated, and at its most every single one loaded up into the save.

Still it shouldn't cause problems with the computer, any computer operating in a reasonably temperated environment, with clean and working fans and the hardware setup being ok in general, I guess. If FM causes the machine to collapse, so likely any application with a very heavy CPU load would. There are many stress testing tools available -- if you fail at them, your system is unstable full stop. Try Prime 95, for example to determine whether it is really the game or your setup. During the record summer of 2003 I barely was able to operate my then PC in a room under the roof without the case open and a fan besides it myself. Personally I've started to downvolt my desktop components, keeps them cooler (less fan noise) as well as conserving energy.

Like I said, I'm not really a computer person, I bought my computer in November and I just gave the guy my budget of around £900 and told him what I was looking to do. I copied the information from properties and googled it, and this is my laptop:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/laptops-netbooks/laptops/refurbished-laptops/toshiba-satellite-p850-31l-refurbished-15-6-laptop-silver-19572123-pdt.html

I don't think I need to cool mine, it does get a bit hot but I really need to work it, but at the minute I've got FM, internet, a film, itunes and a few applications open and it seems fine.

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Maybe I've underrated how useful delegation is, but when I've done it in the past I've disagreed with my Assistant a lot and he's upset players. Add the fact that FM13 largely revolves around morale, I feel like I want to do things my way because I don't trust what my Assistant says; If we fail then I'd rather take responsibility than it maybe being down to him.

I agree that all the features have made it more realistic, but the reason I've enjoyed the game for years is because it was fun and not a chore to do extra tasks e.g. training, meetings, the level of detail in tactics such as roles, D/S/A, philosophy. It seems like there are so many factors that can affect success or failure.

In reply to the poster saying I should play Fifa because its less detailed - I've played FM for years for the fact that player ratings are much more detailed and accurate. I just feel the game has gone a level too far trying to become realistic. In all fairness I'd be much more suited with FMC with ability to choose more nations and leagues on the regular skin, but thats just me.

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I'm sorry Herbert but this is a massive misconception. There are a lot of changes in FMC, not just "staff responsibility" wise. Competition Rules, Training, Tactics, Player Interaction/happiness, even Opposition Instructions/Team Talks removed in the Match Engine when playing FMC (there are more than this too). These are things that you can't automate in FM, and you'll only find them in FMC.

To those wanting more leagues and options for FMC - as Neil said you can't expect the game to be quick if there are lots of matches to process.

Those who feel that FM is taking too much time - try FMC, trying it "for 1 minute" is a little unfair to pass judgement.

Well, you have said that FMC is in essence a different game, because there are not just some parts of the main game automated for the users, they are indeed missing. I believe that many FMC users like exactly that.

Of course, if FMC is run with 10 nations playable, then it would be slowed down by that. But why not just leave it to the user to make a decision on that???? I'm sure that i) FMC would still be quicker than the full game with less nations active and that ii) there will be many people happy about finally being able to decide for themselves. Accordingly many people will happily use that option.

edit:

In your toeing to the party line about how some users so disrespectfully dare demand more than 3 leagues, you, like Neil, have completely failed to address that when people talk about the speed of the game, they don't solely mean processing time, but also time spent doing things, or more accurately, suffering or fearing suffering from not doing things. Therefore, a number of people might be entirely happy to play FMC at a slower pace in terms of processing, as at least they can relax knowing they aren't suffering from not doing any of the forum myths of micromanagement and tinkering. But yet it seems SI are still restricted in their considerations of processing time.

THIS is exactly what I mean. Processing speed is a much minor issue than having to deal with all these aspects which were taken out of FM for FMC.

Refusing us users the option to sacrifice processing speed for things some of us would then apparently consider more valuable would be nothing but patronizing if it is done with the justification mentioned above.

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I think the main issue here is not that all these new features have been added to the game, but that they haven't really been implemented properly. The phrase 'jack of all trades, master of none' springs to mind in the way that all these gimmicky new features have been added whereas SI would have been better concentrating on perfecting one or two new features every year. I've lost count of the amount of times I've started a new game and immediately spent an hour organising everything I can think of, only to then realise there are a few things I've forgotten, which usually results in missing the boat i.e. somebody else signing a coach you wanted etc. As someone above says, the game is just too overwhelming now. While it has definitely come a long way since the old ones in terms of new features (some of them brilliant, some average, some pointless, some just plain awful) I just can't help thinking that the game used to be so much more 'playable' a few years ago before SI started to get all self indulgent. Press conferences are probably the biggest waste of time on any computer game ever made, but I'm fully aware you can switch them off. What annoys me more is for example when a player angrily comes to you complaining that he isn't playing enough games then all you have to do every single time is say 'I'm disappointed with your attitude' to which he just apologises and then he is happy again. If you're going to try and be clever with stuff like this then at least make it realistic rather than just trying to break some secret 'code' by saying the right phrase like on a Broken Sword or Monkey Island game. FM Classic is a good idea in theory but is too far at the other end of the scale... basically SI's way of saying 'here you go, you don't like any of our new features, here is a game for 12 year olds. The perfect game would lie somewhere in the middle.

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Guest Satchy
all these gimmicky new features

Which would those be?

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I got fed up with the latest version a long time ago so I can't remember them all off the top of my head, but it's mainly the silly little things that are meant to make us think 'wow that's a cool addition' but just don't work. I mentioned the one about when a player comes to you angry and you just tell him his attitude stinks then he is suddenly happy again (repeat every 6 months). Then there is the laughable news story you get every August about how 'Carlos Tevez might not be in the manager's plans for the coming season as he has been handed the number 32 shirt'. The whole interface is just overkill now and you have to scroll through about 8 pages before you get where you want to. I'm not saying all the new features are terrible, just that they should be more progressive and concentrate on a couple and nail them rather than spending 5 minutes each on 30 new features.

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If by too many features you are referring to its complexity or how convoluted the game is, then I would say that there are not enough new features. I'm really looking forward to seeing the evolution of the team-talk/motivational aspect of the game for example.

The strange thing about this game is that user success is in the hands—when it comes down to business—of 26 or so little blobs; such is the nature of football management (or any type of management for that matter), that one can only do so much before somebody else—or a collection of somebody elses—carries the torch. When we play a game like FIFA, we're fully willing to accept when we lose because of the illusion that we're in full control. It's very difficult, I think, to take responsibility for our own poor performance when we rely so much on other people to implement our own ideologies or philosophies—this is true to real life too, but a good manager takes responsibility for his team's performance be it good or bad.

I do tend to be overly verbose, but my point—if I ever get to it—is that the more control the user has, the more influence he has over his team's chances of winning. Therefore, I would like to see more features added that empowers the user with more control and I'd like to see an instruction manual written from the ground up that explains EVERYTHING without giving too much away if you follow me.

I think SI are headed in the right direction with the Press Conference module (yes it's tedious and can be improved), the Player Interaction module (I think SI can expound on this and make it stellar), and of course the beloved Team-Talk module, which should both be better explained and developed to something that resembles common sense.

I've never understood why people are so obsessed with 'flying through seasons' either. You hear that users don't have as much time to play the game anymore, which is fair as we grow older. However, surely you're still going to play the game for the same amount of time regardless of how complex or indeed dumbed down the game is. So what's the difference if I get a season finished in two hours or manage to play one game in that time? You're still playing the game for the same period! And why would you want to skip through matches anyhow? Surely the match itself is the culmination of all the hard work you've put in across the prior week. That, and the fact that I couldn't possibly be successful playing on anything less than Comprehensive highlights, why the rush?

I disagree in principle with the user's post. I don't think there are too many features at all. I think we're just getting started.

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I agree with darthrodent on this. There is so much more that can be done/added to the game. Much like the sport it replicates there is always room for new ideas and building on current ones.

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You're still playing the game for the same period!

I agree with the majority of your post, but this bit for me displays a lacking ability to imagine other people's viewpoints.

Even though I would love to be drowning in (well-implemented) features, I can at least see how for some people playing 1 game in a night would be far less enjoyable than playing a season in a night. No point in pretending that because you/I don't feel like that no-one does.

The worry is that SI cater too much to one direction, but other than the points I went into in great detail in my posts from ages ago above, they haven't shown too much sign of unduly favouring one side yet.

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I agree with the majority of your post, but this bit for me displays a lacking ability to imagine other people's viewpoints.

Even though I would love to be drowning in (well-implemented) features, I can at least see how for some people playing 1 game in a night would be far less enjoyable than playing a season in a night. No point in pretending that because you/I don't feel like that no-one does.

The worry is that SI cater too much to one direction, but other than the points I went into in great detail in my posts from ages ago above, they haven't shown too much sign of unduly favouring one side yet.

If you start trying to cater to all directions, you often end up with a directionless mess. They have to have a focus.

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If you start trying to cater to all directions, you often end up with a directionless mess. They have to have a focus.

Or a split, which they have.

I would therefore agree with you that any dumbing down of FM should be avoided. I still stand by my points about the "slowing-down" of FMC by adding additional leagues though, FMC users wouldn't be forced to then add additional leagues, although I suppose I can concede that there are posters out there who would do it and then complain.

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Or a split, which they have.

I would therefore agree with you that any dumbing down of FM should be avoided. I still stand by my points about the "slowing-down" of FMC by adding additional leagues though, FMC users wouldn't be forced to then add additional leagues, although I suppose I can concede that there are posters out there who would do it and then complain.

Simply a warning in giant red letters when setting up the game will sufficiently deal with that. The slow game excuse is pretty silly, I'm 100% certain the real reasons behind this restriction are something completely different.

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I disagree, I love the depth in FM13. I want to go as in-depth as I can, that's where the fun and huge satisfaction is at in FM for me which is why I never even bothered firing up an FMC save just to see what it's like.

And the good thing is you don't have to use all these features and you can easily ignore some of them and delegate others to your Assistant.

I think SI have done a great job catering to all kinds of players in FM13.

There are players who watch the full 90 minutes of every match and handle every tiny detail themselves and there are others who like to cruise through seasons quickly and those players also have FMC now.

Most players are probably sitting in the middle ground rather than either of the extremes but the game can be enjoyable to everyone.

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I'm probably somewhere in the middle ground, at least I'm not going as deep into every area of the game as I do into others. However, I'd never advocate for the game to have too much depth so far. This is because from playing as well as career reading experience you can prolly focus on squad building alone (scouting, transfers, just like the old days!), and still do really really well, provided you can take a couple initial set backs on your chin depending on your starting club rather than rant and rave about each loss. All aided by AI squad building issues, board issues, player demand issues, and scouting reports being far too accurate etc. FM ain't rocket science. Sometimes it's just an exercise in patience to an extent. It doesn't have to be, but it can be.

A human player has several advantages over the AI even when he's just started out anyhow. How often have you seen an AI manager successfully unsettling your key player after he targets him in the media prior to your match? Do you see him regularly trying such anyhow, even if he's given the proper personality in the editor? Do you think the AI scouts Eastern European fifth division squads for the cheap and upcoming talent on display by all the filtering options you are given in the "Player search" feature? Have you ever stormed straight out of a press conference and denied any answer whatsoever after a heavy blow as some of the AI would do? The AI is meant to behave "humanly" and accordingly to his personality. Save for the occasional panic transfer and random formation swapping in the hopes to turn things around by accident, the FM player on average is far too self-aware, chicken and focused to give in to any of this. He's more inclined to follow power gaming guides that ensure maximum efficiency in each are of his game rather than giving a damn and play along.

The league restriction of FMC is however still completely artificial. Of course FMC is supposed to be a quicker more stream-lined FM experience, but restricting the number of leagues is taking things a tad far. Here's a suggestion: If you think the number of leagues should be restricted to X to ensure that for the majority of computers FM is run on FMC remains fast and stream-lined: Go ahead, restrict the number of leagues. But there could be an override button of kinds right there. Ticking it gets you a warning that speed may suffer the more leagues you load into your save. Easy, done. If things don't run to satisfaction, there's been the add/remove league feature since FM 2012 anyhow. Don't see what's the deal at all, unless there is something inherent to FMC that makes it prone to crash when run with a higher number of leagues. If there is, fair enough.

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After a year and a half break from FM11 to FM13, I haven't noticed much difference between the two. I am sure lots of changes have occurred, but I simply don't remember them. Anyways, I prefer more complexity and options. As someone who doesn't really watch or play football, I do sometimes fail to understand a lot of what the various options mean or do, but I still experiment with them to see how they affect the game over time.

On a side and completely irrelevant note, I am still irritated that the only reason I bought FM13 over FM11 is because I could no longer log-in to FM11 due to the crappy anti-piracy software SI had on it at the time. After logging in so many times, it wanted me to re-enter my password. Since I tried doing this after the release of FM13 and since I hadn't played it in over two years, I had no idea what it was. The company didn't even provide an option for password recovery. The funny thing is, since I used Steam for FM09, I could actually go back and reinstall and play that. :/

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After a year and a half break from FM11 to FM13, I haven't noticed much difference between the two. I am sure lots of changes have occurred, but I simply don't remember them. Anyways, I prefer more complexity and options. As someone who doesn't really watch or play football, I do sometimes fail to understand a lot of what the various options mean or do, but I still experiment with them to see how they affect the game over time.

On a side and completely irrelevant note, I am still irritated that the only reason I bought FM13 over FM11 is because I could no longer log-in to FM11 due to the crappy anti-piracy software SI had on it at the time. After logging in so many times, it wanted me to re-enter my password. Since I tried doing this after the release of FM13 and since I hadn't played it in over two years, I had no idea what it was. The company didn't even provide an option for password recovery. The funny thing is, since I used Steam for FM09, I could actually go back and reinstall and play that. :/

Sorry to say this too late to be any use, you needed to read this thread - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/309701

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One of the OP's request is that Morale was not as important in FM09.

I didn't see that in FMC. It looked like morale was still very important just without the tools to manage them.

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I'm not going to buy either Fifa or FM14, for the simple fact of getting screwed over at every opportunity.

It used to be a game, now they're trying to make it more and more realistic taking ages to set up a save for it to fail. It used to be a case of having a decent team, using logical tactics and getting reasonable results with the odd bit of luck against you. Now it's added so much features, extra tasks and detail its impossible to see where I'm actually going wrong. Then you add the red cards that occur when you've used your subs, the last minute equalisers and winners and conceding goals against 10 men despite controlling the game, its annoying as hell.

Sick to death, I must have had about 25 failed saves on this game and 2 good ones. Awful when you think of the time wasted. And don't suggest posting to see what other people think I'm doing wrong. Controlling games at home, countering away or controlling against poor teams isn't hard to understand and doesn't need justifying when players are in the correct roles, duties and my tactics aren't complex using the wingers and getting the ball forward.

And I've played every game since CM00/01. Its not a case of failing its the degree to which I have.

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As far as the main topic of this thread is concerned, I consider FM13 a very good step forward.

FM13 offers more options for delegation and the news filters are easier to handle. FM13 allows me much more to ignore things than FM12 did (I did still move back to FM12 for other reason which made it more fun to play).

On top FM13 has FMC for people who like even less. (the number of leagues issue being left out here)

Thus I really don't see that FM13 has too many features now. Much to the opposite, I belive that FM13 is a good step into the opposite direction because it allows us more freedom in deciding which of the many options we want to use and which we want to ignore. This should continue - SI should make it possible to ignore certain features (like press conferences) without always having to fear that the respective assistant will doom us (the issue is that in LLM games one cannot afford good assistants, which means that one cannot afford the luxury of not dealing with the annoying and repetitive parts of the game (which is realistic in a funny way, but decidedly no fun to many))

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Can you go through a season in a few hours back in FM09? I swear people were complainging how long it took to complete a season back then as well. I don't think I have played a verson of FM that I could speed through a season since.... maybe 05 or 06.

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Couldn't agree more. Been playing since 09 myself, and I'm seriously considering going back. Managing a lower league team is absolute hell in fm 13, its no fun at all really.

You have to take notes on every single player, motivation is absolutely critical, without it the team flails around doing terribly, regardless of tactics or personal traits. Like the OP said, you used to be able to get through a season in an evening, now it takes days of turmoil, note taking and relentless monitoring of your tactics and team morale. Even very determined veterans will do terribly if your team talk doesn't go smoothly, which is incredibly easy to fail at in the lower leagues, with a wide variety of player personalities in the beginning. The morale snowball effect is what really kills it because seemingly you lose about 3-4 games in a row in fm 13 your season is over.

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Guest Satchy
Managing a lower league team is absolute hell in fm 13, its no fun at all really.

Nah, I love LLM in FM13.

you used to be able to get through a season in an evening, now it takes days of turmoil, note taking and relentless monitoring of your tactics and team morale.

Nonsense. The only notes I ever take are for players that are injury prone, so I know not to buy them or keep hold of them. "Days of turmoil" has more to do with you than the game. I use one tactic, and morale management is a core part of football management. It's rightfully a big part of the game. It's also really not hard to keep in check. A season in an evening? Let's say that a season is on average 40-50 games, often it's more. Now, divide that by the number of hours in an 'evening'. It sounds like you just want to sim games and not actually act the part of the manager. I'm glad that the game doesn't just let you buy the fastest or strongest whoever and plop them on the pitch without a second thought and still achieve some kind of success. There's no depth in that, and I can't see much lasting enjoyment from such a surface-level participation in the game.

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I'm glad that the game doesn't just let you buy the fastest or strongest whoever and plop them on the pitch without a second thought and still achieve some kind of success.

It does actually, read any of Dafuge's stories. He excels at team management and bringing in players (not that hard to be at least better than the AI long-term in this anyhow), has a sound starting tactics and fast forwards through seasons never once watching a match. His team gets better each season, and so do the results and league positions. The key in playing FM this way, apart from learning to use the scouting reports and/or player search, is not obsessing and taking a loss on the chin. With FM players usually theorizing about team talks being the difference between CL glory and relegation and arguing similar (Too complex! Too many features! Too much ambiguity!), and many frequently getting all riled-up about losing a match or two or three they appear to have dominated "statistically", it is something that is then rarely tried and put to the test, though. Dafuge sticks with it. And moves places.

And I've played every game since CM00/01. Its not a case of failing its the degree to which I have.

Having seen some of your more recent posts, maybe it's time to cut down on expectations. Qualifying for the CL with Schalke is none too shabby, for instance. It's not as easy to simply "override" the AI anymore and trick it into situations it can never defend (ME fixes) and it's not as easy to go on endless runs of form (early days FM 2012 plus FM 2011 and their prolonged "superb" morale boosts across all squad), for instance. You'd probably get more enjoyment if you learned to accept a loss or two and move on.

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Nah, I love LLM in FM13.

Nonsense. The only notes I ever take are for players that are injury prone, so I know not to buy them or keep hold of them. "Days of turmoil" has more to do with you than the game. I use one tactic, and morale management is a core part of football management. It's rightfully a big part of the game. It's also really not hard to keep in check. A season in an evening? Let's say that a season is on average 40-50 games, often it's more. Now, divide that by the number of hours in an 'evening'. It sounds like you just want to sim games and not actually act the part of the manager. I'm glad that the game doesn't just let you buy the fastest or strongest whoever and plop them on the pitch without a second thought and still achieve some kind of success. There's no depth in that, and I can't see much lasting enjoyment from such a surface-level participation in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I've had my successes. I brought Truro to the BPL in 7 seasons on one of my saves so dont try to act like I don't put any thought in to it. I've published a few tactics on some fansites, and have been playing for over 4 years. It's just far too punishing in the morale department when things start to go wrong. It seems like morale is basically a big scale and once it starts tipping one way or the other, there's almost no stopping it. My save with Truro, I could damn near do no wrong, everything I said worked, other saves where injury and other problems lead to less desirable results, nothing I said helped, seemingly every game "just needed a little more luck".. its almost like the game is trolling you at times... The whole classic football mode is a joke, morale is still ever present, only you don't have any tools to help control it. I honestly would want to play classic mode sometimes, but then this and the hideous and completely different UI is forced on me, and it just feels awkward. I like building up a team, I like having all the control of tactics, learning ppms, training ect., but I'm not so fond of managing personalities which is what fm 13 is really all about at its core.

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Poor morale will only get the better of you if you let it, it's not that difficult to keep an entire squad happy & it's doesn't take that much time or effort.

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Guest Satchy
It does actually, read any of Dafuge's stories. He excels at team management and bringing in players (not that hard to be at least better than the AI long-term in this anyhow), has a sound starting tactics and fast forwards through seasons never once watching a match.

Didn't realize it was quite like that. :p I think it's down to knowing the right attributes for the right roles, once you've set up a proper system.

Don't get me wrong, I've had my successes. I brought Truro to the BPL in 7 seasons on one of my saves so dont try to act like I don't put any thought in to it.

I'm just going by your statement that you'd like to get through a season in an evening. That really just defeats the purpose of FM for me personally. I feel like I should actually use more notes on players, and get into the game even more, not blaze through it. I think the most enjoyment in this game comes from when you play it like the real thing, but that's just how I am. I'm not going to tell someone to play the game like I do if they're enjoying it, but it seems like you haven't been enjoying the game.

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Couldn't agree more. Been playing since 09 myself, and I'm seriously considering going back. Managing a lower league team is absolute hell in fm 13, its no fun at all really.

You have to take notes on every single player, motivation is absolutely critical, without it the team flails around doing terribly, regardless of tactics or personal traits. Like the OP said, you used to be able to get through a season in an evening, now it takes days of turmoil, note taking and relentless monitoring of your tactics and team morale. Even very determined veterans will do terribly if your team talk doesn't go smoothly, which is incredibly easy to fail at in the lower leagues, with a wide variety of player personalities in the beginning. The morale snowball effect is what really kills it because seemingly you lose about 3-4 games in a row in fm 13 your season is over.

I don't think you have to go as far as taking notes on every player, you can have a good amount of success with LLM while ignoring some of the new features. I personally don't talk to players 1 on 1 because I haven't grasped this feature yet and I'm not having problems with morale.

"motivation is absolutely critical, without it the team flails around doing terribly, regardless of tactics or personal traits"

It's the same for any team in real life, it doesn't matter if it's Real Madrid or Mansfield Town, any team that gets into a slump finds it hard to get out of it for example Newcastle from last season.

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I don't think you have to go as far as taking notes on every player, you can have a good amount of success with LLM while ignoring some of the new features. I personally don't talk to players 1 on 1 because I haven't grasped this feature yet and I'm not having problems with morale.

"motivation is absolutely critical, without it the team flails around doing terribly, regardless of tactics or personal traits"

It's the same for any team in real life, it doesn't matter if it's Real Madrid or Mansfield Town, any team that gets into a slump finds it hard to get out of it for example Newcastle from last season.

Actually, totally untrue. Newcastle's poor run has more to do with quality of strikers and missing Demba Ba.

Real Madrid had probably one of the worst team morale this year due to players fighting with the manager but they still came 2nd in la Liga and did not do too shabby in champions league.

Motivation has to play a secondary role than player quality and tactics. That is more fun as the consumer will have more control and frankly it is more realistic.

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General rule of the thumb: Just because somebody posts something it isn't necessarily true. The above quote "motivation is absolutely critical...." is coming from a new user who in his post got morale and focus (motivation) apparently mixed up. No team talk has ever had a huge effect on morale, which is indeed quite important. And secondly, he claims you'd need to spend days on man management even if you didn't want to, which is disproven by many a save.

People have a habit with becoming overly obsessed on focusing on one area, likely because they can't deal with the ambiguity and are starving for more control in what is, to some extent, organized chaos. It's a very gameish thing: If I push button A I want to happen B. In this case it cannot be just tactics, and it cannot be just morale either (and obviously it isn't). Without arguing this to be the perfect picture, I'll still try to give it a shot: Generally the better team, if halfway decently and logically set up, is more likely to win. However, given a good tactics playing to its strengths and recognizing the limits, the worse team can still defy the odds. However, bad man management and/or bad morale in the dressing room can cause trouble to each of the sides (and prove beneficial if the contrary applies and the team is in good spirits and all fired up). If the manager masters all of the above, he is very likely to very regularly outperform the AI teams. However, he can still do fine by being good in but one area, if he's really good at that. Kind of like real-life managers, no? You've got your wheeler dealers, your tactical wizards and masterminds, motivational gurus, and some managers excel by mastering two or each of those.

There are many factors at work and FM would be pretty bad at recreating what it is trying to recreate if SI would listen to somebody claiming that for instance with decent players alone you should nick everything -> which is arguably still the case to some extent in FM, at least once you've mastered the ins and out of scouting and wheeling and dealing (not that hard to get decent at this with the tools at your disposal), at which point the AI will not be able to cope as often due to various reasons (see my last couple of posts in which I'm trying to argue why that is the case). If you really want to determine if you're any good at tactics for instance, you arguably need to set up a save as a national team manager or an online save, as you won't have an advantage over the AI mid or short term, and will be forced to work with what you're given rather than always bettering your squad and eventually vastly increasing the likelyhood of nicking games before they ever get too close the better the players become (and the more likely they are to outperform and trouble their opposition by their superior skill and/or phyiscal traits alone). I can't find it anymore, but more recently someone won the Premiership on FM 2013 by fielding a lone isolated front three consisting of Messi, Lewandowski and Falcao, a tactics that was set up to keep lots of players back and that relied on direct balls being fed to those front three. With lesser players at the very least, this shouldn't work as well as it did, obviously, but with players of that skill they are regularly able to carve out space on their own without any real support (Messi's many successful dribblings, etc.), despite the rather limited tactics. On lesser tiers with lesser opposition, you obviously won't need Messi to excel in the same ways.

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Guest Satchy
Real Madrid had probably one of the worst team morale this year due to players fighting with the manager but they still came 2nd in la Liga and did not do too shabby in champions league.

Madrid's season was a failure by their standards. And truly, if there ever was a team in recent years that proved that in reality you can't just continually buy the biggest names (including the coach) and win everything, it's Madrid.

Motivation has to play a secondary role than player quality and tactics. That is more fun as the consumer will have more control and frankly it is more realistic.

Not at all. Fun is all in your own mentality when playing the game.

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In your toeing to the party line about how some users so disrespectfully dare demand more than 3 leagues, you, like Neil, have completely failed to address that when people talk about the speed of the game, they don't solely mean processing time, but also time spent doing things, or more accurately, suffering or fearing suffering from not doing things. Therefore, a number of people might be entirely happy to play FMC at a slower pace in terms of processing, as at least they can relax knowing they aren't suffering from not doing any of the forum myths of micromanagement and tinkering. But yet it seems SI are still restricted in their considerations of processing time.

Boom, knew this would happen

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