Setting up an effective 4-2-3-1

[yonko]

This is from my most recent game. I intentionally tried not to sub because I wanted the heat map to be pretty clear. I ended up having to sub out my right back because he took a knock just before halftime. I've also put my AMR/AML on support duty just because I wanted to see if that made the buildup a bit more patient, which it has. Furthermore, they seem to interact with the fullbacks better. In that game, I started on Standard strategy and dominated the game. At about the 78 minute mark with me up 2-0, the AI decided to start chasing the game and went 4-2-4 so I went Contain and scored the third. I anticipated that the AI would drop back (which they did) and so I went Control and quickly buried them with a fourth.

As for the ST drifting, he does, almost to a fault. I would prefer him to stay in the middle closer to the goal. I have considered manually removing the drift in channels instruction, but I don't want to hurt possession so I left it.

And the AMC does help link play because he's on support duty. The linkup play in general with my setup is pretty good and I believe it's because of the Very Fluid mentality setup.

Someday I want to setup a German version. I read that Joachim Low said their strategy is opposite of Barcelona's and he tells his team he expects the ball to be in the goal 8 seconds after winning it back.

Yeah, that's all fine and good, but look at the huge gap between your MCs and DCs. Why are your MCs so far from the DCs? Do any of them have "comes deep" PPM? Have considered or tried using a DLP-defend next to the CM-defend? Perhaps the gap is that big just in that game......

Putting your IFs on support makes sense if you wanted better link up and build up action. I recently put all my AMs on support duties (IF-s, AM-s, AP-s) with Dortmund in an away league game vs Bayern M, which I won 2-1. It gave me better possession and control, even though I went down 0-1 in the first half.

About the ST, if you don't want him to drift so much and so often into wide areas, then maybe you should consider switching him to Poacher or DLF-attack role. Either of these roles should take away the roaming for your ST. And if that doesn't help as much, then maybe manually adjust his Wide Play from "moves into channels" to "normal". What PPMs does your ST have?

when you play the MC version of the formation there is a need to reduce the space between the midfield and the defense (uncle is spot on here), and very fluid/fluid does a better job of dealing with this part as far as I can recall it

and since you wanted to see heatmaps here's one from my most recent game of using 4-2-3-1, I dominated for most of it, had 69% possession, but failed to kill them of and jovetic promptly scored after my lads failed to mark him properly on an IFK very late in the game, that kind of stuff happens every now and then:

I'm very well aware that when playing 4231 it is important to shrink the gap between the MCs and DCs, with at least one of the MCs playing a very deep role. You know, I didn't start playing FM yesterday and I've been around these forums for a long time.;) That's why I use roles like DLP-defend and CM-defend for my MCs and I also like using players in these positions that have "comes deep" PPM.

Looking at your image and Uncle Sam's, your gap is much smaller than his. Also, would I be right if I say that it looks like you subbed your MCs and AMC in that game? All 3 subs also look very much in the same spots as the players they replaced, which is good, but also confirms that your were in control of the match the whole time and you didn't change your tactical instructions too much, such as strategy.

I also notice that your AMs are closer to the middle, why is that? Are you using 3 AMCs or AMR/L? Another thing, your FBs are very close to your DCs and it doesn't look like they venture forward too much.....not that it's a bad thing necessarily, because it makes you more solid defensively and perhaps that is what you want out of your tactic. I like my tactic to be more staggered and that's why I use Balanced style as it gives me flexibility with the players' duties. I used to use Fluid before on FM11 and FM12.

What is your actual set up, btw? I don't see it on this page.....And yeah, I understand what you are saying about not killing them off and Jovetic scoring from IFK. It happens every now and then to me too.....with any formation/tactic.

[Uncle_Sam]

Yeah, that's all fine and good, but look at the huge gap between your MCs and DCs. Why are your MCs so far from the DCs? Do any of them have "comes deep" PPM? Have considered or tried using a DLP-defend next to the CM-defend? Perhaps the gap is that big just in that game......

Putting your IFs on support makes sense if you wanted better link up and build up action. I recently put all my AMs on support duties (IF-s, AM-s, AP-s) with Dortmund in an away league game vs Bayern M, which I won 2-1. It gave me better possession and control, even though I went down 0-1 in the first half.

About the ST, if you don't want him to drift so much and so often into wide areas, then maybe you should consider switching him to Poacher or DLF-attack role. Either of these roles should take away the roaming for your ST. And if that doesn't help as much, then maybe manually adjust his Wide Play from "moves into channels" to "normal". What PPMs does your ST have?

My midfielders are on DLP-Support and MC-Defend. The gap is so big in that particular game because I dominated, so my MCs didn't have to track back as much. We kept the ball in their area a great deal more than it came into ours. As you can see from the stats, only 6 percent of the match did they have the ball in my third. I have removed the push higher up shout for this team because they aren't good enough to go closing down all over the field just yet, so the DC's don't stray too far into the opponent half when the attack is on. In my other, closer matches, the gap is not as pronounced.

As for the drifting FC, while it's something I'm not crazy about him doing I also understand that it aids possession and it works. If you notice in that game he (Hoxie) had FOUR goals, so I'm not stubborn enough to mess about with something that is working.

[yonko]

My midfielders are on DLP-Support and MC-Defend. The gap is so big in that particular game because I dominated, so my MCs didn't have to track back as much. We kept the ball in their area a great deal more than it came into ours. As you can see from the stats, only 6 percent of the match did they have the ball in my third. I have removed the push higher up shout for this team because they aren't good enough to go closing down all over the field just yet, so the DC's don't stray too far into the opponent half when the attack is on. In my other, closer matches, the gap is not as pronounced.

That explains it then. Can you post some other positional analysis from games where your team needs to do a bit more defending and tracking back?

As for the drifting FC, while it's something I'm not crazy about him doing I also understand that it aids possession and it works. If you notice in that game he (Hoxie) had FOUR goals, so I'm not stubborn enough to mess about with something that is working.

If your ST is scoring so much then there is no reason to be unhappy with him drifting into wide areas and therefore changing his instructions. So yeah, don't fix something that isn't broken, I guess.....

You said that in this game you changed your IFs to support duty. With the AMC as AM also on support, how does he interact with the IFs in this set up? I ask because the AM has roaming and moves into channels. And do you have Playmaker selected in Team Instructions?

[RTHerringbone]

Herring,

I'm having great success with 4231 with narrow amcs. It relies on quality CMs with high stamina though. Regarding the roles, I use three different combos - CM Defend - DLP Support, CM Defend - CM Support and CM Defend - DLP Defend.

I've had no issues at all having both MCs on defend duty, it depends really who you play there. I play with two AMC supports and a AMC attack, so they all have moves into channels and then the MC exploits that space with a support duty, which is why I slightly prefer it.

I've been testing the last first and last MC combinations and am edging towards the first one. The AMC line currently works OK with two attacking midfielders on attack and an advanced playmaker on support. Still tinkering with the front four as I'm torn between a support role up front to draw the defence out, or a high attacking role to peg them back. The support option will be the hardest to work, I may need to play him off-centre.

[dyne]

Could anyone explain to me why using DLP(s) and BWM(d) combo in this formation is not a good idea?

[RTHerringbone]

Could anyone explain to me why using DLP(s) and BWM(d) combo in this formation is not a good idea?

Because a BWM tends to chase the ball and for your most defensive MC player you want somebody a bit more static to offer constant presence between the DC and MC lines, so a CM (D) or DLP (D)

[dyne]

even in a defensive role a BWM still chasing the ball? If that is true, what is the difference between BWM (d) with BWM (s) ?

[RTHerringbone]

even in a defensive role a BWM still chasing the ball? If that is true, what is the difference between BWM (d) with BWM (s) ?

Not certain as I'm at work, but presumably lower mentality on the Defend Duty and some other settings. Their closing down will remain highish as that is the definition of a BWM.

[dyne]

ok, so if I want to employ both DLP and BWM it better to use DLP (d) and BWM(s) rather than DLP(s) + BWM(d)?

and do you think there will be a problem if I use DLP + 3 AP(a) + 1 TM/poacher ?

[RTHerringbone]

ok, so if I want to employ both DLP and BWM it better to use DLP (d) and BWM(s) rather than DLP(s) + BWM(d)?

and do you think there will be a problem if I use DLP + 3 AP(a) + 1 TM/poacher ?

Yes to the first question, although the majority of set ups in this thread steer clear of a BWM. I'm new to two CM setups myself, but instinctively steer clear of BWMs myself as your really need positional discipline to shield the defence, moreso depending on how your DL/R players are set up.

3 Advanced Playmakers on Attack doesn't make sense to me, nor the selection of Striker Role. You risk creating limited variety of service.

It depends what you want to achieve. I'm designing a narrow 4-2-3-1 and my thought process is:

1. I have no natural width, so need wingbacks to create it

2. With wingbacks I definitely need MCs to actively support the defence, so will look to use to Defend Duties in MC

3. With two Defend Duties in MC, I need an AMC player to drop towards the MC strata

4. How do I want to score goals? Striker to press the defence back to create space for AMCs to move into, or striker to drop deep to pull the defence forward and create space for the AMCs to move into

[llama3]

Could anyone explain to me why using DLP(s) and BWM(d) combo in this formation is not a good idea?

If used correctly it is absolutely fine. I have found that the DLP covers the marauding BWM very well. They are probably more effective with duties the opposite way round, but regardless, I don't actually see a problem with it.

[Falahk]

If used correctly it is absolutely fine. I have found that the DLP covers the marauding BWM very well. They are probably more effective with duties the opposite way round, but regardless, I don't actually see a problem with it.

in a 4-2-3-1 I would probably lean towards using my "ball winner" on AMC if I was to use a player of that type in my starting line up, that would aggressively chase down and tackle whoever is holding the ball

[Falahk]

Looking at your image and Uncle Sam's, your gap is much smaller than his. Also, would I be right if I say that it looks like you subbed your MCs and AMC in that game? All 3 subs also look very much in the same spots as the players they replaced, which is good, but also confirms that your were in control of the match the whole time and you didn't change your tactical instructions too much, such as strategy.

yes I subbed my full midfield trio in the mentioned game

I also notice that your AMs are closer to the middle, why is that? Are you using 3 AMCs or AMR/L? Another thing, your FBs are very close to your DCs and it doesn't look like they venture forward too much.....not that it's a bad thing necessarily, because it makes you more solid defensively and perhaps that is what you want out of your tactic. I like my tactic to be more staggered and that's why I use Balanced style as it gives me flexibility with the players' duties. I used to use Fluid before on FM11 and FM12.

could be a number of factors, they could be moving closer to the center to pick up the ball, they could be running with the ball towards the center from a wide position, that viola was using a 3-4-1-2 formation probably ment that my wide players did a bit of closing down against the wide center backs, the ai may have used weaker foot OI on my wide players to force them inside more

I use defensive fullbacks since my slow tempo, build up play and high defense line mean they are still playing quite high up the pitch (if you look at the heat map I posted and compare it to the one uncle posted they are just as far up the pitch), also when I was developing the tactic on fm12 I had two wing backs kind of players with the like to get forward ppm, this was a bit of a problem since they moved up to far and to soon which limited passing options and outlets that was available to my midfielders

What is your actual set up, btw? I don't see it on this page.....And yeah, I understand what you are saying about not killing them off and Jovetic scoring from IFK. It happens every now and then to me too.....with any formation/tactic.

the basic shape look like this:

there's a number of individual slider tweaks: normal wide play for the IF's, goal keeper delivery, no hub for the CM's, creative freedom for some players, removal of long shoots, changes to encourage the fullbacks to cross when in a good position to do so, normal tackling for the trequartista etc

the tactic was more or less built on top of Uysaler Emircan's somewhat old barca tactic (I have his permission to share my take on it), so he deserves most of the credit, I just tinkered it to suit a change in formation, and the squad I had at the time (my fm12 Athletic squad, so I'm not using it as my main tactic now with Roma)

[ramie]

yes I subbed my full midfield trio in the mentioned game

could be a number of factors, they could be moving closer to the center to pick up the ball, they could be running with the ball towards the center from a wide position, that viola was using a 3-4-1-2 formation probably ment that my wide players did a bit of closing down against the wide center backs, the ai may have used weaker foot OI on my wide players to force them inside more

I use defensive fullbacks since my slow tempo, build up play and high defense line mean they are still playing quite high up the pitch (if you look at the heat map I posted and compare it to the one uncle posted they are just as far up the pitch), also when I was developing the tactic on fm12 I had two wing backs kind of players with the like to get forward ppm, this was a bit of a problem since they moved up to far and to soon which limited passing options and outlets that was available to my midfielders

the basic shape look like this:

there's a number of individual slider tweaks: normal wide play for the IF's, goal keeper delivery, no hub for the CM's, creative freedom for some players, removal of long shoots, changes to encourage the fullbacks to cross when in a good position to do so, normal tackling for the trequartista etc

the tactic was more or less built on top of Uysaler Emircan's somewhat old barca tactic (I have his permission to share my take on it), so he deserves most of the credit, I just tinkered it to suit a change in formation, and the squad I had at the time (my fm12 Athletic squad, so I'm not using it as my main tactic now with Roma)

Looks like a tactic that would suit my side, be interested to see in more detail the tweaks you have done

[yonko]

Because a BWM tends to chase the ball and for your most defensive MC player you want somebody a bit more static to offer constant presence between the DC and MC lines, so a CM (D) or DLP (D)

Do you use Hassle Opponents shout? I ask this because even if you use CM(D) and DLP(D), the shout will max out their closing down as if they were BWMs.

even in a defensive role a BWM still chasing the ball? If that is true, what is the difference between BWM (d) with BWM (s) ?

Not certain as I'm at work, but presumably lower mentality on the Defend Duty and some other settings. Their closing down will remain highish as that is the definition of a BWM.

BWM(S) has RFD on mixed, whereas BWM(D) has them on rarely, if I'm not mistaken.

[yonko]

could be a number of factors, they could be moving closer to the center to pick up the ball, they could be running with the ball towards the center from a wide position, that viola was using a 3-4-1-2 formation probably ment that my wide players did a bit of closing down against the wide center backs, the ai may have used weaker foot OI on my wide players to force them inside more

Makes sense.

I use defensive fullbacks since my slow tempo, build up play and high defense line mean they are still playing quite high up the pitch (if you look at the heat map I posted and compare it to the one uncle posted they are just as far up the pitch), also when I was developing the tactic on fm12 I had two wing backs kind of players with the like to get forward ppm, this was a bit of a problem since they moved up to far and to soon which limited passing options and outlets that was available to my midfielders

This also makes sense. Just like I thought, you prefer to play with more defensive fullbacks, which helps you defensively and with keeping possession.

the basic shape look like this:

there's a number of individual slider tweaks: normal wide play for the IF's, goal keeper delivery, no hub for the CM's, creative freedom for some players, removal of long shoots, changes to encourage the fullbacks to cross when in a good position to do so, normal tackling for the trequartista etc

the tactic was more or less built on top of Uysaler Emircan's somewhat old barca tactic (I have his permission to share my take on it), so he deserves most of the credit, I just tinkered it to suit a change in formation, and the squad I had at the time (my fm12 Athletic squad, so I'm not using it as my main tactic now with Roma)

It's interesting that you use 2 DLPs on Support and a Trequartista. Have you also changed the closing down on the Trequartista besides his tackling to Normal? I also remove HUB for my MCs/DMs.

Discussing preferred styles of play (Balanced, Fluid, Very Fluid) has made me intrigued to try a Fluid style for my tactic. Therefore I used it for 3 games in a row now - CL away game vs Sporting CP (won 4-1) and 2 home league games in the Bundesliga (won 5-1 and 2-0). I also changed my shape yet again to a more traditional one with AMR/L and 2MCs. I use this:

G(d) Weidenfeller

WB(s) Piszczek / BPD(s) Hummels / CD(s) Juan Jesus / WB(s) Schmeltzer

CM(d) Bender / DLP(s) Sahin

IF(a) Reus / AP(a) Gotze / AP(a) Isco

P(a) Lisandro Lopez

That has made Sahin, Gotze and Isco playing between the lines a little bit more. Gotze had a hat-trick in the 5-1 home league win, for example. I'll stick with Fluid and see how it goes. The problem is that I always get an idea to try something either on my own or through discussions here based on what others use.

[Falahk]

This also makes sense. Just like I thought, you prefer to play with more defensive fullbacks, which helps you defensively and with keeping possession.

it probably also make sense now on fm13 since one of my fullbacks (Jose Angel) likes to get forward, while the wide play is much more of a danger then it used to be on fm12, 4-2-3-1 with MC's never really was the best possible defensive shape ether, so being slightly more careful is probably a good decision when using this formation, if it comes from using defensive wingers like rashidi does or by using defensive fullbacks like I do it probably make some sort of sense

if I was using a 4-1-2-2-1 I would have used more attacking wide defenders since I would also have had a dmc to do a fair bit of the defensive work

It's interesting that you use 2 DLPs on Support and a Trequartista. Have you also changed the closing down on the Trequartista besides his tackling to Normal? I also remove HUB for my MCs/DMs.

Discussing preferred styles of play (Balanced, Fluid, Very Fluid) has made me intrigued to try a Fluid style for my tactic. Therefore I used it for 3 games in a row now - CL away game vs Sporting CP (won 4-1) and 2 home league games in the Bundesliga (won 5-1 and 2-0). I also changed my shape yet again to a more traditional one with AMR/L and 2MCs. I use this:

G(d) Weidenfeller

WB(s) Piszczek / BPD(s) Hummels / CD(s) Juan Jesus / WB(s) Schmeltzer

CM(d) Bender / DLP(s) Sahin

IF(a) Reus / AP(a) Gotze / AP(a) Isco

P(a) Lisandro Lopez

That has made Sahin, Gotze and Isco playing between the lines a little bit more. Gotze had a hat-trick in the 5-1 home league win, for example. I'll stick with Fluid and see how it goes. The problem is that I always get an idea to try something either on my own or through discussions here based on what others use.

with the setings I use there's not much difference between dlp support and dlp defend so both my central midfielders are still quite defensive minded, the original tactic had a sligthly more aggressive CM and a more attacking AMC, I felt this did not offer enough defensive cover and as such had to bring both those players a bit deeper

as for the trequartista instructions, they look like this:

[yonko]

it probably also make sense now on fm13 since one of my fullbacks (Jose Angel) likes to get forward, while the wide play is much more of a danger then it used to be on fm12, 4-2-3-1 with MC's never really was the best possible defensive shape ether, so being slightly more careful is probably a good decision when using this formation, if it comes from using defensive wingers like rashidi does or by using defensive fullbacks like I do it probably make some sort of sense

if I was using a 4-1-2-2-1 I would have used more attacking wide defenders since I would also have had a dmc to do a fair bit of the defensive work

I agree with that, but I still prefer to use slightly more adventurous fullbacks, although not as attacking as in 4-1-2-2-1 formation.

with the setings I use there's not much difference between dlp support and dlp defend so both my central midfielders are still quite defensive minded, the original tactic had a sligthly more aggressive CM and a more attacking AMC, I felt this did not offer enough defensive cover and as such had to bring both those players a bit deeper

as for the trequartista instructions, they look like this:

Yeah, I checked the original tactic from the link you provided and saw that it had a DLP(s), AP(s) and AM(s) in midfield, but that's because there was a DM behind them. Curious why did you choose to go with a Trequartista instead of the AM(s)? Was it because of the type of player you had to play the position or just your personal preference? And I see that you haven't touched the closing down for the role.

[BluMoonII]

there's a number of individual slider tweaks... changes to encourage the fullbacks to cross when in a good position to do so...

I play with a similar tactic; a possession driven 4-2-3-1. The main adjustments I'm still working on is utilising the crossing abilities of my fullbacks, without having them disappear in defence. I tend to use them as WB(d)s, which only differs from the FB(d) by moving RFD and Cross Ball both to 'Mixed'. I was just wondering what sort of tweaks you mention to encourage their crossing?

[agentvinz]

I'm really struggling to get my AMC to perform in this formation. Tried AP(A), treq, AM(S) with no success. Upfront I have IF(A), DLF(A)/AF and Winger(S). Any idea? I use balaned and control

[Fisher310]

I'm really struggling to get my AMC to perform in this formation. Tried AP(A), treq, AM(S) with no success. Upfront I have IF(A), DLF(A)/AF and Winger(S). Any idea? I use balaned and control

You shouldn't have the striker as a DLF as the DLF, AM and LF will all be in the same space. Have you tried AP(S)? I use this sometimes and it works well with an IF(A), W(S) and P.

[agentvinz]

You shouldn't have the striker as a DLF as the DLF, AM and LF will all be in the same space. Have you tried AP(S)? I use this sometimes and it works well with an IF(A), W(S) and P.

The problem is I have Giroud as my striker so I don't think he will fit as AF/ poacher because he's big and slow. I'm thinking of changing him to TM(A) what do you think?

The main problem with the AMC is he don't make many key passes. If I use AP(s) then my playmaker is my MC who play as DLP and I don't think it's good because we will just play the ball to my DLP and create no chances. If I set him to CM(s) then my playmaker will be my AP(S) but the CM will get forward sometimes which will get into the AMC position. If I set the AMC to treq he will be my playmaker but the treq has no run from deep so he will just deep and playing many safe passes.

[ModernLefty]

I'm sure many of you have read it, and it is abit late in the thread to post it, but I haven't seen that anybody has. But, S Fraser's 'Meet the System' thread is a superb analysis of the varieties of the 4-2-3-1 and still well worth a read.

Link: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/265090-Meet-The-System

[yonko]

The problem is I have Giroud as my striker so I don't think he will fit as AF/ poacher because he's big and slow. I'm thinking of changing him to TM(A) what do you think?

The main problem with the AMC is he don't make many key passes. If I use AP(s) then my playmaker is my MC who play as DLP and I don't think it's good because we will just play the ball to my DLP and create no chances. If I set him to CM(s) then my playmaker will be my AP(S) but the CM will get forward sometimes which will get into the AMC position. If I set the AMC to treq he will be my playmaker but the treq has no run from deep so he will just deep and playing many safe passes.

So the solution is obvious. Keep your DLP but manually select your AP to be the playmaker.

[agentvinz]

So the solution is obvious. Keep your DLP but manually select your AP to be the playmaker.

Yeah I think I will do that. I just don't know why the TC prefer DLP over AP as the primary playmaker.

Another question, doest setting the AP to roaming is a good idea?

[yonko]

Yeah I think I will do that. I just don't know why the TC prefer DLP over AP as the primary playmaker.

Another question, doest setting the AP to roaming is a good idea?

It depends on his attributes (off the ball, anticipation, decision, work rate), his PPMs and how the opposition is setting up against you. Consider that if the AP is your Playmaker, the opposition will set a man-marking on him at some point during the game, regardless if they use a DM or not. Roaming can help to free him up, but it could also make it hard for the rest of your team to find their playmaker if he is drifting in the wrong places.

I personally do not select a Playmaker, I set it to "none". But I give roaming and moves into channels wide play to my AMC if the opposition is playing with a DM or 2 DMs.

Which player do you use in the AMC position as AP - what are his attributes and PPMs?

[jonomagloneo]

Interestingly, my 4-2-3-1 is normally set up as such:

Balanced/Control/Zonal

SwK(d)

FB(s) - CB(x) - CB© - FB(s)

CM(s) - BWM(d)

W(s) - AP(a) - IF(a)

AF(a)

Considering the opinions of this thread, I decided to change my BWM(d) to a CM(d), and experimented with putting either or both of my FBs on an attack duty.

This led to an inability to control games in quite the same way. Studying my average positions comparitively, I realised that:

1. even when playing the BWM(d)-CM(s) combo, my first-choice CM(s) was sitting reasonably deep and giving me good protection while the BWM went looking for the ball. I would avoid the combo if the player had a PPM of "gets forward whenever possible" or similar.

2. I would invariably find that the side the CM(d) would play would leave the wide player on the same side isolated. My BWM(d)-CM(s) pairing seemed to retain more balance.

I would definitely endorse the partnership if you have the right players - ie. someone with very high tackling at BWM (I have Sven Bender) and no one with a getting forward PPM alongside. Currently challenging for the title in 2018 with Brighton.

[agentvinz]

It depends on his attributes (off the ball, anticipation, decision, work rate), his PPMs and how the opposition is setting up against you. Consider that if the AP is your Playmaker, the opposition will set a man-marking on him at some point during the game, regardless if they use a DM or not. Roaming can help to free him up, but it could also make it hard for the rest of your team to find their playmaker if he is drifting in the wrong places.

I personally do not select a Playmaker, I set it to "none". But I give roaming and moves into channels wide play to my AMC if the opposition is playing with a DM or 2 DMs.

Which player do you use in the AMC position as AP - what are his attributes and PPMs?

I'm starting a QPR save atm, I usually have Taarabt or Granero as AP. When I play Granero I set him as AP support but when Taarabt play he's AP attack, with roaming on. I'm only 3games on the preseason and so far both of them are playing well, making key passes so I'm currently happy with that. But haven't play against a formation with a DM yet.

On previous FM I noticed if I set the AMC to roaming and move into channel he'll act very much like 2nd striker, he'll focus on getting the box to score than sit in the hole to assist which I don't like, but it's just personal preference

[yonko]

I'm starting a QPR save atm, I usually have Taarabt or Granero as AP. When I play Granero I set him as AP support but when Taarabt play he's AP attack, with roaming on. I'm only 3games on the preseason and so far both of them are playing well, making key passes so I'm currently happy with that. But haven't play against a formation with a DM yet.

On previous FM I noticed if I set the AMC to roaming and move into channel he'll act very much like 2nd striker, he'll focus on getting the box to score than sit in the hole to assist which I don't like, but it's just personal preference

So you don't want your AMC to play as a 2nd striker, but rather as staying in the whole set up man. In that case I think both AP roles should be good enough provided that the players you use in those roles have the qualities needed. Just set him (manually) as the playmaker.

[yonko]

Has anyone noticed how the AI managers use the 4-2-3-1 formation, particularly the likes of Real M (Mourinho), Man United (Sir Alex), Man City (Mancini), etc.? They always seem to use a very aggressive and attacking version of the formation, where usually one of the MCs is moving in attack.

In my Dortmund save in the 2nd season I faced Man United in the quarter-finals of the CL and had hard time matching up my 4-2-3-1 formation against theirs. Eventually I ended up winning the tie after drawing 1-1 at home and winning 2-1 in the away game, but I was sort of lucky and it was a very intense tactical battle that could've gone either way. Man United used the following line up:

De Gea

Van Rhijn

Evra

Vidic

Evra

Carrick

Hamsik

Nani

Young

Rooney

Hernandez

Carrick was sitting deep and dictating the play (perhaps as the DLP-defend), while Hamsik was moving often forward and attacking the space between my lines (maybe he was a CM-support or even on attack duty). Rooney was all over the place and causing all sorts of problems for me. I would guess he was perhaps an AM-attack. But I was particularly intrigued by the way Nani and Young were playing. They were very wide, very aggressive and unpredictable - they would cut inside or go wide and cross. They were very active and involved.

Honestly I was surprised I won the tie. My GK and my defense had a good game and stopped them as much as they could, but it was hard. I had to change my formation to using 2 DMs (Sahin and Bender). I used Reus at his regular position of AML, but I moved Gotze to AMR. Gundogan played as my AMC and did well exploiting the space behind Carrick. I couldn't use Isco as he was injured but maybe that worked to my advantage. As my ST I used Fierro instead of Lisandro Lopez who had just recovered from injury and had just enough fitness to make my bench. At the end, after going behind by a goal in the 2nd leg, Fierro equalized the score on a beautiful solo run and Gundogan assisted for Gotze's game-winning goal in the second half. After that it was hold on for dear life.

For anyone interested, I used the following set up against Man United in the 2nd leg:

G-defend

2x FB-support

2x CD-defend

Anchor

DM-support (normal tackling)

2x IF-attack (Gotze man-marking Evra, Reus man-marking Van Rhijn)

AM-support

CF-support

Team Instructions:

Fluid

Counter

Shorter passing

More Expressive

Press More

Zonal Marking

Drill crosses

More roaming

OI's:

Always close-down and show to weaker foot for both DCs and MCs

Always tight marking and always close-down for AMR/L, AMC and ST

Shouts:

I started with Retain Possession, Pass Into Space, Work Ball Into Box. But once I went a goal behind that changed to: Get Ball Forward, Pass to Feet, Work Ball Into Box. Then after taking the lead 2-1, I went back to the original combination of shouts, plus I added Play Wider and Stay on Feet. Also, for the last 10 minutes of the game I change the Strategy to Defend and made 3 player subs (fresh legs).

So I'm wondering what is everyone else's experience playing against 4-2-3-1 formations, especially against the highest reputation teams.

[dyne]

@Yonko

There are 2 Evra on the MU line up.

And for 4-2-3-1 as opponent, at the first season only City using this tactic. They play it narrow with Tevez as AMC (a) and Aguero as ST (not sure his position, but probably DLF (a)).

The funny thing is, Juventus (as the winner of Italian League), MU (played by me), and Dortmund (Germany league winner) all using 4-2-3-1 formation. The only one who didn't use it is Real Madrid.

The second season, almost all top tier EPL team using this tactic. Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Everton. In some team this tactic didn't work (Arsenal fail big time) but Spurs and Everton did a magnificent job using this tactic (though AVB already leave Spurs and their new coach bring them to win the FA cup)

What Spurs did is almost the same like the MU did in your game. Lennon and Young move from like crazy. I even spotted Young several times helping defense and several times neutralize my Bale (yes, I trade Young with Bale). The real thread is Siggurson + Adebayor, where Siggurson keep sending killer pass to Adebayor, and if he didn't manage to convert it to goals, there are 2-3 player behind him ready to pounce on rebound ball.

[yonko]

@Yonko

There are 2 Evra on the MU line up.

And for 4-2-3-1 as opponent, at the first season only City using this tactic. They play it narrow with Tevez as AMC (a) and Aguero as ST (not sure his position, but probably DLF (a)).

The funny thing is, Juventus (as the winner of Italian League), MU (played by me), and Dortmund (Germany league winner) all using 4-2-3-1 formation. The only one who didn't use it is Real Madrid.

The second season, almost all top tier EPL team using this tactic. Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Everton. In some team this tactic didn't work (Arsenal fail big time) but Spurs and Everton did a magnificent job using this tactic (though AVB already leave Spurs and their new coach bring them to win the FA cup)

What Spurs did is almost the same like the MU did in your game. Lennon and Young move from like crazy. I even spotted Young several times helping defense and several times neutralize my Bale (yes, I trade Young with Bale). The real thread is Siggurson + Adebayor, where Siggurson keep sending killer pass to Adebayor, and if he didn't manage to convert it to goals, there are 2-3 player behind him ready to pounce on rebound ball.

Yeah, sorry about my mistake with Man U's line up. There were not two Evra's in their line up, of course. The other DC was Nkoulou (or whatever his name is) originally from Marseilles. And because I was writing my post off memory, I made a few other mistakes and omitted to mention one very important detail. The tie against Man United was a first knockout round of the CL, not quarter-final. And the important detail is that Carrick got sent off in the 69th minute (Gotze scored the winner in the 54th) for 2 yellow cards. That helped me win the second leg and ultimately the tie. But they were still a hand full even with 10 men.

What, Real Madrid do not use 4-2-3-1 in your save? Is Mourinho still in charge of them or have they changed the manager? If he is still their manager, in all my saves he always uses 4-2-3-1. However, sometimes during games, he may switch to using 4-3-1-2 as alternative.

[retrodude09]

Has anyone noticed how the AI managers use the 4-2-3-1 formation, particularly the likes of Real M (Mourinho), Man United (Sir Alex), Man City (Mancini), etc.? They always seem to use a very aggressive and attacking version of the formation, where usually one of the MCs is moving in attack...

It's time's like these where I wish we could peak at opposition tactics purely because I'm curious as to how the likes of United and Madrid operate. As far as I'm aware, the AI use the TC in the same way we do, apart from manual slider changes so theoretically we should be able to replicate what they're doing.

Young & Nani sound to me like they could have been playing as wingers - support although I could be wrong. I say this purely because it gives them a nice mix of 'sometimes' and 'often' mentalities and also gives them 'normal' wideplay which could be the reason why they would go inside or go wide.

The role of Rooney is the one that fascinates me the most though, as that is exactly what I'd like to achieve from my AM. I currently have him playing as an Advanced Playmaker - Support and whilst he's doing alright, I think he could do better.

I disagree with the generic feel of this thread in that a BWM isn't really a good idea. I prefer him to CM-D, I don't know why but I just do. If anything, it's the front four who cause me more of a headache than the centre midfielder's although I'm not entirely convinced by the DLP but then that may be because FM doesn't rate them highly if they're not scoring or assisting.

[yonko]

It's time's like these where I wish we could peak at opposition tactics purely because I'm curious as to how the likes of United and Madrid operate. As far as I'm aware, the AI use the TC in the same way we do, apart from manual slider changes so theoretically we should be able to replicate what they're doing.

Yeah, me too. If I'm not mistaken someone had figured out a way to peak at AI's tactics and replicate them, but that was on FM11, if memory serves me right.

I'm curious to know how do AI managers pick the roles for the players in their formations. Do they rely on their own attributes for judging players' ability and potential or their assistant's? Is it the same as how my own assistant recommends specific role and duty for each of my players on their reports?

I wish the game provided more info on how AI teams and managers played - what style, strategy, players' roles, etc - through scouting reports. I think that needs to be improved upon for FM14 or future.

Young & Nani sound to me like they could have been playing as wingers - support although I could be wrong. I say this purely because it gives them a nice mix of 'sometimes' and 'often' mentalities and also gives them 'normal' wideplay which could be the reason why they would go inside or go wide.

I would disagree with that. I think Nani and Young were both in the role of Winger-attack, because they would both start really wide and once they got the ball at their feet they would either cut inside and pass/shoot or go to the byline and cross. If I'm not mistaken both players have "cuts inside" PPM, which combined with "hug touchline" wide play (due to the role) and high Creative Freedom, would explain their diverse play.

The role of Rooney is the one that fascinates me the most though, as that is exactly what I'd like to achieve from my AM. I currently have him playing as an Advanced Playmaker - Support and whilst he's doing alright, I think he could do better.

I'm also fascinated by Rooney's role as the AMC. He moved anywhere between the wingers, CMs and ST - he was dropping deep, moving into channels, getting in the box and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I think that is not just due to his role, but also due to his PPMs. I'll have to check what they actually are, but I'm sure he has "comes deep". I think his role was AM-attack.

I disagree with the generic feel of this thread in that a BWM isn't really a good idea. I prefer him to CM-D, I don't know why but I just do. If anything, it's the front four who cause me more of a headache than the centre midfielder's although I'm not entirely convinced by the DLP but then that may be because FM doesn't rate them highly if they're not scoring or assisting.

To each his own. I personally have avoided the BWM role and I'm happy how my MCs are playing. At the moment I'm using 2 DLPs - one on support, the other on defend duty. The idea of using DLP is not really so much for direct assists, but rather more about winning and recycling the ball around, because DLPs are withdrawn midfielders who dictate play from deeper positions hence their name. I think that since the last ME update, deep midfielders are getting better ratings even without assisting or scoring, just based on their general passing, tackling and interceptions. Same goes for defenders, btw.

[yonko]

It's time's like these where I wish we could peak at opposition tactics purely because I'm curious as to how the likes of United and Madrid operate. As far as I'm aware, the AI use the TC in the same way we do, apart from manual slider changes so theoretically we should be able to replicate what they're doing.

FYI, this is what I manage to dig up from old threads.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/245157-The-Real-Arsenal-(SI-version)?highlight=managers+tactics

However I do not think this trick works anymore.

[dyne]

Yeah, sorry about my mistake with Man U's line up. There were not two Evra's in their line up, of course. The other DC was Nkoulou (or whatever his name is) originally from Marseilles. And because I was writing my post off memory, I made a few other mistakes and omitted to mention one very important detail. The tie against Man United was a first knockout round of the CL, not quarter-final. And the important detail is that Carrick got sent off in the 69th minute (Gotze scored the winner in the 54th) for 2 yellow cards. That helped me win the second leg and ultimately the tie. But they were still a hand full even with 10 men.

What, Real Madrid do not use 4-2-3-1 in your save? Is Mourinho still in charge of them or have they changed the manager? If he is still their manager, in all my saves he always uses 4-2-3-1. However, sometimes during games, he may switch to using 4-3-1-2 as alternative.

Nope, Morinho move to Chelsea and now he managing Inter. The next move he will go back to FCP

Facing Chelsea several times when Mou still handling them, he did use 4-2-3-1. Funny thing is, he switch the role of Mata and Torres (Mata as the lone striker and Torres as the AMC).

[retrodude09]

Yeah, me too. If I'm not mistaken someone had figured out a way to peak at AI's tactics and replicate them, but that was on FM11, if memory serves me right.

I'm curious to know how do AI managers pick the roles for the players in their formations. Do they rely on their own attributes for judging players' ability and potential or their assistant's? Is it the same as how my own assistant recommends specific role and duty for each of my players on their reports?

I think it would be a mixture of the two, they'd go with their 'gut' and take advice from their assistant manager and I'd assume that the AI has something built in that 'reads' the reports. One thing I would question is whether the AI uses specialist roles such as deep lying playmakers and so on>

I wish the game provided more info on how AI teams and managers played - what style, strategy, players' roles, etc - through scouting reports. I think that needs to be improved upon for FM14 or future.

Yeah definitely. I like how much opposition scout reports have been improved, but I still think there's some way to go for them because it would be nice to see how they're likely to set up. I mean in real life, I guess that they see a lot more than we do in the game when scouting teams / players.

I would disagree with that. I think Nani and Young were both in the role of Winger-attack, because they would both start really wide and once they got the ball at their feet they would either cut inside and pass/shoot or go to the byline and cross. If I'm not mistaken both players have "cuts inside" PPM, which combined with "hug touchline" wide play (due to the role) and high Creative Freedom, would explain their diverse play.

Ah, that's something I never thought of actually. Their PPM's (Despite me beginning to recognise how important they are) coupled with high creative freedom could possibly lead to this kind of play but it's something that sounds really interesting and makes them unpredictable.

I'm also fascinated by Rooney's role as the AMC. He moved anywhere between the wingers, CMs and ST - he was dropping deep, moving into channels, getting in the box and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I think that is not just due to his role, but also due to his PPMs. I'll have to check what they actually are, but I'm sure he has "comes deep". I think his role was AM-attack.

This is exactly the kind of movement I want from my AM but I'm just not sure how to get it. As you said his PPM's may have a big effect on this but a lot must be down to the settings. I'm curious though, how did the striker in front of him operate? Did he stay high and stretch the play or did he come deep into the space that Rooney could possibly have been leaving?

To each his own. I personally have avoided the BWM role and I'm happy how my MCs are playing. At the moment I'm using 2 DLPs - one on support, the other on defend duty. The idea of using DLP is not really so much for direct assists, but rather more about winning and recycling the ball around, because DLPs are withdrawn midfielders who dictate play from deeper positions hence their name. I think that since the last ME update, deep midfielders are getting better ratings even without assisting or scoring, just based on their general passing, tackling and interceptions. Same goes for defenders, btw.

Interestingly enough this is the first save where I've actually got a 4-2-3-1 to work relatively well. Previously I've used CM-D and DLP-S in the central midfield positions and for some reason I haven't been happy with that combination but now after using a BWM instead of the CM, I seem to have got the balance right. I'm toying with the idea of changing my DLP to a CM-S but I'm worried that I'm not at the level yet where I can force myself upon teams too much.

One thing I don't like about the ME is how it handles pressing. On 'press more' I find my players running after the ball like headless chickens and being pulled out of position far too easily. Even on 'default' I still find this happens occasionally so this is something I keep my eye on.

As I said above, it's the front four that's got me stumped at the moment. Although I say this and I'm still the second highest scorers in the league.

[yonko]

I think it would be a mixture of the two, they'd go with their 'gut' and take advice from their assistant manager and I'd assume that the AI has something built in that 'reads' the reports. One thing I would question is whether the AI uses specialist roles such as deep lying playmakers and so on>

I'm pretty sure that AI managers use specialist roles.

Yeah definitely. I like how much opposition scout reports have been improved, but I still think there's some way to go for them because it would be nice to see how they're likely to set up. I mean in real life, I guess that they see a lot more than we do in the game when scouting teams / players.

Actually my opinion is that scouting reports haven't improved that much. They are pretty useless and very unrealistic. The only useful info for me is to see where the assists are coming from for the opposition. I'm hoping for massive improvement in that department for future FM editions.

Ah, that's something I never thought of actually. Their PPM's (Despite me beginning to recognise how important they are) coupled with high creative freedom could possibly lead to this kind of play but it's something that sounds really interesting and makes them unpredictable.

Yeah, PPMs are very important and make a difference/complement a player's play. At the moment I'm using my AMR/L as Wingers-attack and the players I'm playing in these positions are Reus, Gotze, Deulofeu and Bittencourt. They are beginning to play like Nani and Young did for Man United against me.

This is exactly the kind of movement I want from my AM but I'm just not sure how to get it. As you said his PPM's may have a big effect on this but a lot must be down to the settings. I'm curious though, how did the striker in front of him operate? Did he stay high and stretch the play or did he come deep into the space that Rooney could possibly have been leaving?

I'm using my AMC as AP-attack (Isco) with roaming, moves into channels and cross often instructions. My choice for that role (instead of AM-attack, for example) is dictated by the fact that both my MCs play deep holding roles. So far I like how everything is going.

As for how the striker was playing ahead of Rooney, he was pushing to get behind my backline and into the channels. Rarely was he dropping deep. I'm guessing he was playing either a Poacher role or AF-attack. His play was probably affected by Chicharito Hernandez' PPM of "likes to beat the offside trap".

I'm using my STC as AF-attack, playing either Lisandro Lopez ("comes deep", "plays one-twos", "shoots with power" PPMs) or Carlos Fierro (no PPMs).

Interestingly enough this is the first save where I've actually got a 4-2-3-1 to work relatively well. Previously I've used CM-D and DLP-S in the central midfield positions and for some reason I haven't been happy with that combination but now after using a BWM instead of the CM, I seem to have got the balance right. I'm toying with the idea of changing my DLP to a CM-S but I'm worried that I'm not at the level yet where I can force myself upon teams too much.

One thing I don't like about the ME is how it handles pressing. On 'press more' I find my players running after the ball like headless chickens and being pulled out of position far too easily. Even on 'default' I still find this happens occasionally so this is something I keep my eye on.

As I said above, it's the front four that's got me stumped at the moment. Although I say this and I'm still the second highest scorers in the league.

My save with Dortmund is also my first save where I'm using a 4-2-3-1 formation and got it working well. My experience with the CM roles is the opposite of yours. I simply do not like a BWM, even though I have a perfect player for the role - Sven Bender. However, I may look into using a CM-S role with a CM-D or DLP-D.

As for the pressing, I agree that at times players may look like they are running like headless chickens. I also use "press more", but you're giving me an idea to try "default" and see if that makes my players more organized, especially considering that my 2MCs have more conservative roles than yours in terms of pressing.

For the front 4, I think you should analyze what your players are capable of doing (attributes, PPMs) and if that matches what you want them to do. IMO using Wingers-attack opens up a lot of space for your AMC and STC, as well as for the Wingers themselves especially if they have "cuts inside" PPM. With a certain combination of roles, you can get a 4-2-3-1 to play almost like a 4-4-2 if you like or you can make it play like a 4-3-3. But you must be doing something right, if your team is the second highest scoring in the league as you say. Which team are you playing with btw?

[yonko]

I've been reading some of the other threads on the forums and thinking.....What kind of PPMs do any of you guys like for your players in each position when using a 4-2-3-1 formation, considering the way you want your teams to play?

I've been thinking more and more what PPMs to teach to my players (I have a relatively young Dortmund squad at the start of the 3rd season) or to look for players who already possess specific PPMs. Here are my preferences:

DR/L - gets forward whenever possible, does not dive into tackles, hugs touchline

DCs - marks opponents tightly, does not dive into tackles

MC(defensive) - marks opponents tightly, does not dive into tackles, plays short simple passes, likes to switch flanks, comes deep

MC(playmaking) - plays short simple passes, tries killer balls often, dictates tempo, comes deep, likes to switch flanks, does not dive into tackles, plays one-twos

AMR/L - cuts inside, runs will ball often, places shots, comes deep, plays one-twos

AMC - tries killer balls often, dictates tempo, moves into channels, comes deep, runs with ball through center or often, plays one-twos

STC - moves into channels, comes deep, plays one-twos

As you can see I like most of my players to come deep and link up playing one-twos.

[retrodude09]

I'm pretty sure that AI managers use specialist roles.

Actually my opinion is that scouting reports haven't improved that much. They are pretty useless and very unrealistic. The only useful info for me is to see where the assists are coming from for the opposition. I'm hoping for massive improvement in that department for future FM editions.

I've never thought about using the report to look at where their assists come from, I usually just look at where they're conceding their goals.

Yeah, PPMs are very important and make a difference/complement a player's play. At the moment I'm using my AMR/L as Wingers-attack and the players I'm playing in these positions are Reus, Gotze, Deulofeu and Bittencourt. They are beginning to play like Nani and Young did for Man United against me.

I might have to give this a try at the end of this season. I'll be having a clear out of my wingers anyway bar two (I think) although I'm not against having to train these PPM's but I'll probably look at younger players anyway. Although, I play with less creative freedom so this may be something to look at.

I'm using my AMC as AP-attack (Isco) with roaming, moves into channels and cross often instructions. My choice for that role (instead of AM-attack, for example) is dictated by the fact that both my MCs play deep holding roles. So far I like how everything is going.

Isco is actually one of my favourite players on Football Manager (I played him upfront and he was fantastic) so he's one of my main targets for the next two seasons. I currently have my AM as AP - Attack and I've got Sissoko performing fantastically there.

As for how the striker was playing ahead of Rooney, he was pushing to get behind my backline and into the channels. Rarely was he dropping deep. I'm guessing he was playing either a Poacher role or AF-attack. His play was probably affected by Chicharito Hernandez' PPM of "likes to beat the offside trap".

Exactly the same as I am set-up at the moment.

My save with Dortmund is also my first save where I'm using a 4-2-3-1 formation and got it working well. My experience with the CM roles is the opposite of yours. I simply do not like a BWM, even though I have a perfect player for the role - Sven Bender. However, I may look into using a CM-S role with a CM-D or DLP-D.

As for the pressing, I agree that at times players may look like they are running like headless chickens. I also use "press more", but you're giving me an idea to try "default" and see if that makes my players more organized, especially considering that my 2MCs have more conservative roles than yours in terms of pressing.

For the front 4, I think you should analyze what your players are capable of doing (attributes, PPMs) and if that matches what you want them to do. IMO using Wingers-attack opens up a lot of space for your AMC and STC, as well as for the Wingers themselves especially if they have "cuts inside" PPM. With a certain combination of roles, you can get a 4-2-3-1 to play almost like a 4-4-2 if you like or you can make it play like a 4-3-3. But you must be doing something right, if your team is the second highest scoring in the league as you say. Which team are you playing with btw?

I'm Newcastle and surprisingly I'm top (20 games; 50 points; 6 points clear). This is in my first season which makes it even more incredible because I haven't signed anyone major. I've actually changed my BWM to a CM - D and my DLP - S to a CM - S and surprisingly I feel a little bit more solid. I'm struggling to decide whether I want to play counter or control though.

[yonko]

I've never thought about using the report to look at where their assists come from, I usually just look at where they're conceding their goals.

Oh, I find it very helpful to see from they are creating their goals. You should pay more attention to that IMO.

I might have to give this a try at the end of this season. I'll be having a clear out of my wingers anyway bar two (I think) although I'm not against having to train these PPM's but I'll probably look at younger players anyway. Although, I play with less creative freedom so this may be something to look at.

Reus and Gotze have "cuts inside" PPM and they play exactly like Nani and Young did against me. Though Gotze is more patient with his play due to him also having "dictates tempo". Bittencourt and Deulofeu do not have that PPM, but they also move inside from their initial wide positions. It's weird cause I thought Deulofeu would have that PPM (I've played many saves with my fav Barca), but it seems he must've unlearned it before I bought him....I didn't know that the AI could do that. Bittencourt has "moves into channels" PPM though.

So try to get yourself some players who cut inside and play them as Wingers.

Isco is actually one of my favourite players on Football Manager (I played him upfront and he was fantastic) so he's one of my main targets for the next two seasons. I currently have my AM as AP - Attack and I've got Sissoko performing fantastically there.

This is my first save where I have the chance and the need to buy him (don't need him at Barca). I got him in the Summer before the 2nd season and he has played very well for me, even though he got injured for 3 months in January. I haven't always played him as I do now exactly. I've used him either at AML as IF-A or at AMC as AP-A (default settings, without roaming, normal wide play and mixed crosses). He doesn't score a lot (I think he scored less than 10 goals) but makes a lot of key passes and a good number of assists from either position/role. Now, only at the pre-season for my 3rd season, I've set him as I mentioned in my previous post and he plays very well in the friendlies so far. Him and Gotze play very well together.

Exactly the same as I am set-up at the moment.

Which role - Poacher or AF-attack? I've used them both in my set up and prefer AF-attack. I've also used CF-S.

I'm Newcastle and surprisingly I'm top (20 games; 50 points; 6 points clear). This is in my first season which makes it even more incredible because I haven't signed anyone major. I've actually changed my BWM to a CM - D and my DLP - S to a CM - S and surprisingly I feel a little bit more solid. I'm struggling to decide whether I want to play counter or control though.

Ah, Newcastle....well good then, especially since you are top of the table in your first season without major signings. What is your most frequently used lineup and roles with them? How is Pappis Cisse doing?

[retrodude09]

Oh, I find it very helpful to see from they are creating their goals. You should pay more attention to that IMO.

I'm not sure how I'd counteract what I found though, so this is something for me to think about.

Reus and Gotze have "cuts inside" PPM and they play exactly like Nani and Young did against me. Though Gotze is more patient with his play due to him also having "dictates tempo". Bittencourt and Deulofeu do not have that PPM, but they also move inside from their initial wide positions. It's weird cause I thought Deulofeu would have that PPM (I've played many saves with my fav Barca), but it seems he must've unlearned it before I bought him....I didn't know that the AI could do that. Bittencourt has "moves into channels" PPM though.

So try to get yourself some players who cut inside and play them as Wingers.

Well, the most obvious one is Ben Arfa who is in my side at the moment, so I may have to give it a go during pre-season of the second season as I think I'll leave things as they are at the minute.

How is Deulofeu doing? I heard good things about him (IRL) during last summer so I always try and have a look at him but he doesn't look anything special? So I'm interested in how he's doing for you?

Which role - Poacher or AF-attack? I've used them both in my set up and prefer AF-attack. I've also used CF-S.

Advanced Forward - Attack is what I'm using at the moment. I've tried the majority of them but I'm using AF - A at the moment to stretch the defence, although, I think I pretty much get the same from Complete Forward - Attack whilst adding to the tactic so I might have to revert back to that.

Ah, Newcastle....well good then, especially since you are top of the table in your first season without major signings. What is your most frequently used lineup and roles with them? How is Pappis Cisse doing?

Yeah I'm just waiting for something to happen, especially after I've picked up wins to the big teams (bar United).

That is how I'm set up at the moment. Like I said, unsure whether to go counter / control.

Papiss Cisse: 24 (5) Apps; 13 Goals; 8 Assists; 7.24 Average Rating. [All Competitions]

[saltshaker]

This is what's been working for me:

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Around half of Reus' assists are from set-pieces. All of Gotze's assists are from open play. However, I still feel like I could be getting more from him in terms of goals and assists.

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Interestingly, in my CL group I was with Man United and I beat them both times - 2-1 away and 5-1 at home. This led to them finishing 4th and out of all European competitions! However, I've tied Bayern M 0-0 twice - once for the German cup (which I won on PKs) and once more in an away league game.

So far I'm happy with my 4231, but I'm thinking how to get more out of Gotze.

Hi Yonko,

May i know what OI you used in your Dortmund's 4-2-3-1 save?

And do you set any specific Shouts for different situation e.g. start of the game / minute 55 / leading against BIG team / chasing a goal /etc.. and facing opp with different tactics appraoch (4-4-2, 4-1-2-2-1,etc)?

Thanks.

[davidmn27]

I know its been brought up already on this thread but how are people getting on with a narrow 4231 with 3 AMCs? Can it be a success in top class football I.e. champions league? If so, what set up are people using?

I'm Newcastle and have lots of central players so want to adapt a 4231 to get the best out of them as well as Cisse/Campbell up front.

[yonko]

I'm not sure how I'd counteract what I found though, so this is something for me to think about.

Use logic. For example, if you see that the opposition is getting majority of their assists from both flanks, that means that their wide midfielders and/or their fullbacks will pose danger for you. Most of the time that happens when a team is using a flat 4-4-2 formation. Through OIs force their MCL to his right foot, force their MCR to his left foot and always close-down both of them, so it's more difficult for them to feed their wide men. Use your FBs on Support duty and through OIs again mark their ML/AML and MR/AMR tight and close them down always. Maybe even use your AMR/L to specifically man-mark their FBs.

Well, the most obvious one is Ben Arfa who is in my side at the moment, so I may have to give it a go during pre-season of the second season as I think I'll leave things as they are at the minute.

How is Deulofeu doing? I heard good things about him (IRL) during last summer so I always try and have a look at him but he doesn't look anything special? So I'm interested in how he's doing for you?

Ben Arfa would be a good choice for the AMR position and I see that you are already using him there but as IF-S. Does he have "cuts inside" PPM?

Deulofeu just came into my team in the Summer of 2014 for 26m euros, most of it spread over 48 months. He has done well in the friendlies so far and the AI has done a relatively decent job at developing his attributes. I'll post a screenshot of him later. I'm going to play him mostly at AMR, though he would probably be better at AML which is what you would need at Newcastle.

I'll let you know as the season goes how he does for me. But from my many Barca saves I know he becomes world-class and plays great.

Advanced Forward - Attack is what I'm using at the moment. I've tried the majority of them but I'm using AF - A at the moment to stretch the defence, although, I think I pretty much get the same from Complete Forward - Attack whilst adding to the tactic so I might have to revert back to that.

Yeah, AF is a good option in general, but whenever my opponents sit deeper and focus on defending against me, I tend to switch that player to CF-S.

Yeah I'm just waiting for something to happen, especially after I've picked up wins to the big teams (bar United).

That is how I'm set up at the moment. Like I said, unsure whether to go counter / control.

Papiss Cisse: 24 (5) Apps; 13 Goals; 8 Assists; 7.24 Average Rating. [All Competitions]

Pretty nice stats on Cisse. I would want him to score a few more goals though from the amount of games he has played. On the other hand, it must be a nice surprise that he has that many assists. Interestingly, on my Dortmund save at one point I considered buy Cisse to replace Lewandowski who I was selling.

[yonko]

Hi Yonko,

May i know what OI you used in your Dortmund's 4-2-3-1 save?

And do you set any specific Shouts for different situation e.g. start of the game / minute 55 / leading against BIG team / chasing a goal /etc.. and facing opp with different tactics appraoch (4-4-2, 4-1-2-2-1,etc)?

Thanks.

First, you must know that my tactic has slightly changed since posting those screenshots. This was from my first season.

Second, the OIs I use vary from time to time, but in general they are:

DR/L: always mark tight, always close down

DCs: always close down and show to weaker foot

DM/MCs: always close down and show to weaker foot

M/AM R/L: always mark tight, always close down

AMC: always mark tight, always close down

STs: always mark tight and always close down

[retrodude09]

Use logic. For example, if you see that the opposition is getting majority of their assists from both flanks, that means that their wide midfielders and/or their fullbacks will pose danger for you. Most of the time that happens when a team is using a flat 4-4-2 formation. Through OIs force their MCL to his right foot, force their MCR to his left foot and always close-down both of them, so it's more difficult for them to feed their wide men. Use your FBs on Support duty and through OIs again mark their ML/AML and MR/AMR tight and close them down always. Maybe even use your AMR/L to specifically man-mark their FBs.

Thanks for this, I'll have to have a look in more detail at how I prepare for my games.

Ben Arfa would be a good choice for the AMR position and I see that you are already using him there but as IF-S. Does he have "cuts inside" PPM?

Since that screenshot I've changed him to Winger - Attack and he's showing good movement. He does indeed have the 'Cuts Inside' PPM. What has surprised me most is how much better a winger seems to be at attacking the box than the IF ever was. I also use Obertan there and despite not having the 'Cuts Inside' PPM, I've still seen him come inside on a few occasions.

Deulofeu just came into my team in the Summer of 2014 for 26m euros, most of it spread over 48 months. He has done well in the friendlies so far and the AI has done a relatively decent job at developing his attributes. I'll post a screenshot of him later. I'm going to play him mostly at AMR, though he would probably be better at AML which is what you would need at Newcastle.

I'll let you know as the season goes how he does for me. But from my many Barca saves I know he becomes world-class and plays great.

My interest in Deulofeu came from one of the international youth tournaments where he was described as a mix between Messi and Ronaldo, although I'm not sure how accurate that is. I might take a look at him as Malouda will need replacing when his loan spell ends.

Yeah, AF is a good option in general, but whenever my opponents sit deeper and focus on defending against me, I tend to switch that player to CF-S.

Pretty nice stats on Cisse. I would want him to score a few more goals though from the amount of games he has played. On the other hand, it must be a nice surprise that he has that many assists. Interestingly, on my Dortmund save at one point I considered buy Cisse to replace Lewandowski who I was selling.

You mentioned Cisse's number of assists and I'd probably put that down me playing him as a Complete Forward - Support for a period of time. Interesting thoughts on using a CF - S when teams defend deep against you as it isn't something I've ever thought about although I have contemplated going DLF - S sometimes.

Yeah I would like a few more goals out of Cisse / strikers in general and I've just paid £20M to bring in Lacina Traore and he's actually got 2/2 for me which has impressed me, hopefully it continues and he justifies the fee.

[retrodude09]

Firstly, sorry about the double post, but I just thought I'd share this.

In order to develop my own 4-2-3-1, I've decided I'm going to 'attend' several games of other teams who also play the same system as me. The first game I watched was Real Madrid - Malaga in the 2nd Leg of their Copa Del Rey tie. Madrid were 2-0 up from the first leg. They went onto win 5-0 with Ronaldo scoring 2 inside 20 minutes or so but what I noticed was how fluid everything looked and how players seemed to interchange in positions quite regularly.

Here is an image of Madrid's average positions from that win; next to my Newcastle team who won the game in question 3-1 against Fulham's 4-4-2: (Sorry about the poor diagrams)

Firstly, the positions under the player is the position they started the game in; according to the pre-match report. Secondly, the crossed out players are the ones who were brought on as substitutes so their positions can be ignored.

If you look at my Newcastle team, you can clearly see a set formation; 4-2-3-1 with all players appearing in the positions I started them. One thing I did notice was how much further forward my LCM was compared to his midfield partner [LCM; CM - S. RCM; CM - D] although I suspect this is down to Fulham playing a 4-4-2 and Sissoko's PPM's [Runs with ball through centre; Gets Into Opposition Area]. My RB is further forward than my LB because he is FB - A as opposed to the support role my left back is given.

However, if you look at Real Madrid's average positions, what you actually see is quite odd. The first thing that stood out to me was just how narrow their centre back pairing were, with the only reason I could think of being they swapped positions during the game? Secondly, despite starting LCM and RCM, they've actually swapped over on the heat map, again, either an in-game change or something to do with player swapping.

The most interesting point for me was Di Maria [AML] and Callejon [AMR] were both positioned on average on their opposite flanks. Now during the game, I thought I was seeing them swap over, but I wasn't too sure and I even had the Madrid formation tab open although that didn't help too much. Di Maria was a constant threat, be it from the left or right and this has got me thinking about setting my wingers up to swap sides. I think if I do this then I can cause confusion in the defence and it keeps them guessing. As for their player roles, I'd say both were set as Inside Forwards as they both looked to drive inside once they'd received the ball.

So, that's just my two-cents after watching the AI play with the same formation as I do and I'm keen to see what others think.

[yonko]

Since that screenshot I've changed him to Winger - Attack and he's showing good movement. He does indeed have the 'Cuts Inside' PPM. What has surprised me most is how much better a winger seems to be at attacking the box than the IF ever was. I also use Obertan there and despite not having the 'Cuts Inside' PPM, I've still seen him come inside on a few occasions.

Well, you had Ben Arfa playing as IF-S so it's normal now for him to be more aggressive as W-A - he is more attacking and has more Creative Freedom with the new role.

My interest in Deulofeu came from one of the international youth tournaments where he was described as a mix between Messi and Ronaldo, although I'm not sure how accurate that is. I might take a look at him as Malouda will need replacing when his loan spell ends.

As a long time Barca fan, I'm quite familiar with Deulofeu IRL as I've been following his development. I can tell you that he is very similar type of player to Ronaldo, especially young Ronaldo from his first season at Man United. He is nothing like Messi. Hopefully he is given more playing time with the first team next season and we will see how he will develop.

As for in FM, here is how he looks for me at the start of the 3rd season:

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His attributes haven't changed at all since I bought him, so this is pretty much all AI development. I'm hoping that he will develop even more with my individual training for him. As you can see, he is rated at 4 1/2 stars PA, but what you don't see is that his CA is rated at 2 1/2 stars. So he has full 2 stars to grow yet. I checked his PPMs again and he does have "cuts inside" and "runs with ball often", so I was mistaken thinking that he doesn't have the former.

You mentioned Cisse's number of assists and I'd probably put that down me playing him as a Complete Forward - Support for a period of time. Interesting thoughts on using a CF - S when teams defend deep against you as it isn't something I've ever thought about although I have contemplated going DLF - S sometimes.

Yeah I would like a few more goals out of Cisse / strikers in general and I've just paid £20M to bring in Lacina Traore and he's actually got 2/2 for me which has impressed me, hopefully it continues and he justifies the fee.

It makes sense that Cisse would rack up some assists considering that you've played him as CF-S in some games. Using that role against teams who sit deep and just defend works because it reduced RFD, thus gets the forward more involved in the general play. I've found that AF or Poacher doesn't work in this scenario because it isolates and hides the forward, which leads to him having a poor rating/game. DLF-S may work too, but I prefer CF-S because it gives the ST roaming and RWB often. Also, if you use Balanced style (which I've gone back to using), both roles would lower the mentality.

Regardless of role though, I always look to buy and use STs who have more complete set of attributes, which allow them to score, set up and taken on defenders. The attributes I usually look for are: finishing, dribbling, first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, creativity, decisions, flair, off the ball, teamwork, acceleration, agility and pace.

[yonko]

Firstly, sorry about the double post, but I just thought I'd share this.

In order to develop my own 4-2-3-1, I've decided I'm going to 'attend' several games of other teams who also play the same system as me. The first game I watched was Real Madrid - Malaga in the 2nd Leg of their Copa Del Rey tie. Madrid were 2-0 up from the first leg. They went onto win 5-0 with Ronaldo scoring 2 inside 20 minutes or so but what I noticed was how fluid everything looked and how players seemed to interchange in positions quite regularly.

Here is an image of Madrid's average positions from that win; next to my Newcastle team who won the game in question 3-1 against Fulham's 4-4-2: (Sorry about the poor diagrams)

Firstly, the positions under the player is the position they started the game in; according to the pre-match report. Secondly, the crossed out players are the ones who were brought on as substitutes so their positions can be ignored.

If you look at my Newcastle team, you can clearly see a set formation; 4-2-3-1 with all players appearing in the positions I started them. One thing I did notice was how much further forward my LCM was compared to his midfield partner [LCM; CM - S. RCM; CM - D] although I suspect this is down to Fulham playing a 4-4-2 and Sissoko's PPM's [Runs with ball through centre; Gets Into Opposition Area]. My RB is further forward than my LB because he is FB - A as opposed to the support role my left back is given.

However, if you look at Real Madrid's average positions, what you actually see is quite odd. The first thing that stood out to me was just how narrow their centre back pairing were, with the only reason I could think of being they swapped positions during the game? Secondly, despite starting LCM and RCM, they've actually swapped over on the heat map, again, either an in-game change or something to do with player swapping.

The most interesting point for me was Di Maria [AML] and Callejon [AMR] were both positioned on average on their opposite flanks. Now during the game, I thought I was seeing them swap over, but I wasn't too sure and I even had the Madrid formation tab open although that didn't help too much. Di Maria was a constant threat, be it from the left or right and this has got me thinking about setting my wingers up to swap sides. I think if I do this then I can cause confusion in the defence and it keeps them guessing. As for their player roles, I'd say both were set as Inside Forwards as they both looked to drive inside once they'd received the ball.

So, that's just my two-cents after watching the AI play with the same formation as I do and I'm keen to see what others think.

Nice analysis. Yeah, I was already aware that Mourinho swaps positions for his players often, as I've played countless times against his Real M side on my Barca saves. However, he didn't swap positions that much against me as Dortmund when I played him in my 1st season.

Looking at Real Madrid's players positioning, I also see that the ST is slightly deeper than yours and that is from a game they dominated. Their wingers are also slightly higher. Interestingly the AMC is slightly to the right off center. This happens to my AMC too from time to time and I believe that is due to "moves into channels" PPM or Wide Play instruction.

Who was the other MC in their line up? I can see one of them was Xabi Alonso. I would guess Mourinho uses CM-D and DLP-S combo in midfield. The DCs besides being closer to each other are also slightly higher up than yours. RB/LB are similar to your RB.

BTW, how does one attend and watch another game? I might have to do that on my save too. I would like to see a Real M game myself and Man United game too.