Setting up an effective 4-2-3-1

[ShirazS]

Hi Guys,

I would like to set up a 4-2-3-1 (ideally with MC's) that controls and dominates games. I want effective movement from my striker and wide players to create and exploit space with a Playmaker (Fantasista) in the hole dictating the game and feeding the front 3 as well as getting into the box occasionally.

But I want to be solid at the back as well and do not mind conceding goals when the opposition play well and break through my defence however it seems like my defence makes simple mistakes and leaves the opposition with easy one on one chances that can be avoided.

I have tried a few set ups with Dortmund but cannot seem to get a system working that produces free-flowing intelligent football from a solid base.

           Gk-D
Fb-S   Cd-D   Cd-D   Fb-S
      Dlp-S   Bwm-D
If-A      Treq-A      If-A
         Dlf-S

Philosophy – Balanced

Strategy – Control

Team Instructions:

Shorter Passing

Press More

Zonal Marking

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

The issue I have when using the above set up is that the opposition frequently end up one on one with my GK. What I have noticed is that one of the DC’s get drawn out of position to press and a through ball is then played into that space with one of their wingers/strikers running onto the ball and scoring. Another issue I have is where my full back misses a tackle or gets beaten by their winger so my DC goes across to help out and leaves a huge gap for one of the strikers to get on the of a cross and easy goal.

The other thing is that my midfield and FB’s seem to get caught in possession very often with the opposition aggressively tackling us and winning the ball almost always leading to a one on one as the ball is lost with one or two players between them and our goal.

Also, the forward just seems to lack intelligence when using the ball and the he hardly drops deep to create space like I want him to, the IF’s shoot from distance and so does the Treq. We end up with more than 50% of shots off target every game. I just get the instinctive feeling that my front 4 players are not set up intelligently and can be more useful if they complement each other better.

As I type this out, I am starting to think that my problem is not tactical at all and maybe more a motivational or fitness issue as my team is not fully fit due to these training camp matches coming in quick succession. Nevertheless, I would like some advice/suggestions on how people would set up a solid 4-2-3-1 to control games and be effective with setting up the front 4 to get the best out of them. I would also appreciate if you could explain the thought process behind any suggestions so I can understand why I should make changes and where I am going wrong.

My first team line up is:

            Weidenfeller
Piscszek  Subotic  Hummels  Schmelzer
         Kehl   Gundogan
Reus        Gotze        Grosskreutz
	   Lewandowski
[/Code]

Apologies for the lack of screenshots/PKM’s but I will add some later when I get home as I am at work just now. I would sincerely appreciate some help with understanding the principles behind setting up an effective attack and defence as I think that I just cannot grasp them and am struggling as a result.

I have recently been reading furiousuk's excellent 4-1-2-2-1 thread here - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/311627-The-FM-41221-(433-451-WoW) and wondered if there maybe was one similar to it for the 4-2-3-1?

[peleJunior]

The Treq does no closing down and the ball winning midfielder does too much for a flat midfield i.e. no DMC. I would say that is why you are seeing your defender getting pulled out. I prefer atleast one winger in this formation to keep the width and leave room for your AMC. I play it with an Advanced Forward too, he will push back the defensive line leaving room for the AMC. It's all about making space out there. Your DLP is fine but I would pair him with either DLP on defend or central midfield defend. This keeps them out of the AMC's zone. As for the AMC slot. I usually play an Inside Forward on support or Advanced Playmaker on Attack. IF you set up your forward as advanced forward and your central midfield as the one indicated above then open up the mentality view in the tactics panel. Notice if how the DLP is between the lines of mentalities and it will hold true for either Advanced Playmaker on attack or Inside forward on support in the AMC slot.

Like I said you want to free up space for the AMC so get him between the lines in the mentality structure of your team. With a balanced philosophy you can get alot out of your full backs. Put them on attack duty and notice how their mentality is really high. This makes them very dangerous in this formation. The key here is the two low mentality central midfielders.

This is how I've been setting it up lately:

4231

Balanced - Control - Shorter Pass - More expressive - Drill Crosses - More Roaming - Stand off More - Zonal Mark - DLP support ticked as playmaker (your out ball in attack)

Shouts: Hassle Opponents - Get stuck in - Play out of defence - Work Ball into the box - Play Wider

Sweeper Keeper Support - Distrubution to a defender

FBR Attack

FBL Attack

CD Defend X2

DLP Support

Central Mid Defend

Advanced Playmaker Attack or Inside Forward Support <--- AMC slot

IF Attack <--- left hand side

Winger Attack <--- right hand side

Advanced Forward

OI Instructions:

Against 41221:

Close down both fullbacks and show onto weaker foot

Tight Mark Both Wingers

Find the MC who is more creative and Tigh Mark him

Close down and show onto weaker foot the DMC

Against 4231:

As 41221 but tight mark the AMC and close down + weaker foot the most defensive MC

Against 442:

Again the full backs and the wingers same as 41221

Tight mark the most creative of the two forwards

Tight mark the most attacking of the MC's

Close down the most defensive of the MC's

[vasilli07]

I will go with something like this.

             Gk-D
Fb-A   Cd-D   Cd-D   Fb-S/WB-S
      DM-S   DLP-D
If-A      APM-A      If-S/W-S
         Dlf-S/CF-S

As Grosskreutz is a more defensive player, I want him to help out more in the defence. As on the right side, I certainly like to make use of Piscszek attacking attributes by letting him bomb forward more.

[difran8]

The defensive issues this formation has are both obvious and well known : there is a gap between midfield and defense , so , if the opponent heavily closes down your defense , they panic and kick it upfield . When the ball is won by the opponent, they can launch a quick counter which will leave you defending with your back four .

The attacking threat : you have almost none with the way those 4 are set up . I suspect you imagined that your AMC would take the ball and deliver it for those two IF making inside off-the-ball runs .However, the wide play "cut inside" is an on-the ball instruction . When your IF takes the ball ,he starts running inwards where the pitch is congested by opponents and your AMC-ST as well . I imagine he runs out of options there and eventually gets tackled . I'd set them both on W(s) to utilize the available space

About the AMC-ST pair : you could go a different way , AMC-TQ .Your striker will roam + drop deep to create the space your AMC will run on to, becoming the goalscorer .I hadn't used this role at all, but, after struggling with less than fluid attacking movement, i did and found it very effective in 4-2-3-1 and similar AMC formations

[agentvinz]

The reason why your tactic doesn't work is the player role itself. You have many complicated role and some of them doesn't make sense. BWM+ DLP is a bad combination. The Bwm will close down high up the pitch so he'll get drawn out of position many times and this make your mid vurnerable to counter attacks while the DLP don't have any cover. The fact that you have Treq in front of them just make it worse because he won't close down players which make it harder for you to win the midfield battle. Also the DLP will play long ball forward directly to your IFs+ striker so your Treq will hardly get involved in the game, standing there completely clueless like a statue.

Your player role for the front 3 ( striker and winger) also have some problems. I don't get it WHY everyone is using a support role for strikers now. In my opinion striker's role is to score, not being the creator. So you have a DLF who drop deep but you have Treq behind him who already drop deep so what's the point? Then no wonder your front 3 will lack goal threat and movement so they'll just shot from range.

I've been using 4-2-3-1 formation for years with just simple set up and maybe you can use it for your tactic:

Philosophy – Fluid

Strategy – Attack

Team Instructions:

Shorter Passing

Press More

Zonal Marking

DL Wingback Attack

CD Defend X2

DR Fullback Support

Central midfield support

Central midfield defend

AML Inside Fwd Atk

AMC Adv. Playmaker support

AMR winger support

Advanced Forward

The role is simple. For the back 4 I have a attacking wingback to support the IF who will cut inside and a supporting fullback to support the winger in front, and a classic central half. In the mid there are holding midfielder whose job is protect the back 4 and recycle possession. I choose central mid defend instead of BWM because he won't press as high as BWM and will do more with the ball. The central mid support is the carrick role, his job is to keep possession. I have manually set his RFD to rarely and lower his through ball to keep possession. Then in front I have adv playmaker (with roaming on) to sit in the hole and dictate the game,

For the wing there are IF and a winger .The IF will cut inside for the wing back to overlap, while the right winger will provide width. I like this combo because it will provide variations to the attack. If you use 2 wingers, the striker will lack support but if you use 2 IFs they'll take the space for the striker and AMC so it's not good. Finally upfront I have a striker whose job is only finish.

[drevil1969]

Is there a way you can vary this tactic to be more aggressive? When I say more aggressive I mean in terms of a Sam Allardyce style.

[Shocco]

I agree with the sentiment in this threat I understand why you'd play with a ball winning midfielder but he closes down very high up the pitch rather than sitting deep and protecting the defence I'd suggest you change him to central midfielder - defend.

I'd also suggest you change the role of one of your centre backs to cover; that way he'll sweep up balls that the stopper misses; make sure you have a quick defender with high anticipation is best suited for this role.

Oh and change the trequartista to advanced playmaker with a support duty; he'll do pretty much the same as the Treq but will be a lot more defensively minded

[ShirazS]

Thanks for the responses guys, I am going to try this setup for a few games and see how it goes:

The theory is that the FC will push the opposition D-Line back and enlarge the space in the hole for the Treq. I see your points about the BWM but I kind of like having the creator/destroyer pair in midfield that both rarely make FWR similar to Gattuso and Pirlo. I am hoping that the SK can assist with the conceding of goals from long balls over the top. Also, I have switched the AMR to a Winger-Support so hopefully he can offer a short passing option to the RB, Treq and BWM as well as feeding the striker with first time crosses.

This is the movement I want so hopefully no one encroaches on each other's space.

[ShirazS]

In my first competitive match with this tactic, I got absolutely smashed by Bayern. They were pressing and tackling like men possessed, winning the ball all over the pitch and I had only one half chance which was off target. Ribery and Robben kept running outside then inside and dragging players with them creating space for Mandzukic and Muller to run into and the full backs were getting acres of space and time. Can someone help me see what I could have done differently to avoid this result?

Also, about half of my team were playing their first match of the season because they had been away for the pre-season friendlies. Could that be the reason?

Here are some of the stats:

And the Match PKM - http://www.mediafire.com/?9pw5jmngoukmako

[agentvinz]

Well from the Bayern game I can see you got overwhelmed in the mid that's why you have no possession and lose. Like I said earlier your setup of BWM-DLP-Treq is not ideal either for defence (keeping possession) and offence (creating chance). If you want the Gattuso - Pirlo partnership you can use CM defend and CM support like my setup but manually set the forward run for the CMs to rarely so they'll hold their position. Try this and I'm sure you'll get results soon

[ShirazS]

Hey agentvinz,

Thank you for the response, I will give your suggestion a try. Should I keep the Treq as an AMC then or change to AP-Support like you suggested earlier?

Regards

Shiraz

[peleJunior]

Another thing that really helps me is OI. If a player has >14 acceleration I never tight mark. <14 tight mark always. If a player has <14 pace I close down always. I never use never close down. N.B. 14 is the benchmark rating for higher leagues. Showing wide players down the wing is no bad thing in this formation either, you don't want them cutting in behind the midfield where there is no DMC. So showing for instance, a AML onto his left foot can be wortwhile.

Another thing I use is if I come up against a 3 man midfield I use the shout wider and if it is a two man midfield I use the shout narrow. Get stuck in is slightly overpowered in the engine imo so I use that against alot of teams. The problem with BWM in this shape is his closing down. He gets pulled out of the shape and it is suicidal in a flat midfield of the 4231. You want the two of the central midfielders to just sit and initiate attacks and be the out ball to recycle attacks.

Another thing I use is two days before every match I go to tactic screen -> report -> last match and if you highlight a player in there it will tell you how he performed. For instance if he was passing well. I then have a private chat with him about the performance. Better than 7.4 and I chat (cautious praise) or worse than 6.4. (assertive ticking off). This keeps morale high.

These are a few things I've picked up along the way. I'm currently in the 2nd in Siera A with Sampdoria in the 1st season so it can work.

[llama3]

agentvinz - interesting your opinion on the BWM and DLP as they have been a remarkably effective combination for me in my previous FM games. With the intelligent and disciplined Arteta often dropping to cover for the marauding Song. Must say I disagree with you. They are both hardworking, but the DLP covers better, and that is an important pairing in a central midfield pair, for a 4-2-3-1.

[ShirazS]

How would you suggest setting up the midfield llama3?

I got the BWM-D/DLP-S/Treq from your Team and Tactics Guide

Regards

Shiraz

[llama3]

Well on FM12 I tended to use Song as a BWM (D) & Arteta as a DLP (S) and ahead of them an Advanced Playmaker (Attack/Support) Rosicky - it kind of depends on a lot - but the 4-2-3-1 is weak to the space in behind the midfield line, especially wider. So the 2 central midfielders need to be able to get across. Playing a higher line helps. Wide men depends on your front man - i.e. what type of crossing, your full backs overlapping, the centre-forward moving into channels or dropping deep etc.

Are your problems stemming from bad OI's or shouts?

[ShirazS]

I do not use any OI's or shouts as I would like to get a solid tactical system in place first before experimenting with them. If you do not mind, I would appreciate a suggestion on how to set the entire team up in a 4-2-3-1. I am looking to control games with short-ish passing and possession but I would like intelligent attacking movement from my forward players and a solid defence. I understand that playing a controlling possession game with a high line is risky but as long as I do not concede too many goals over a season, I would be happy

[matty2323]

Im 5 seasons in with Gladbach, and after finishing 6th in my first season, have won 4 consecutive titles with a 4-2-3-1 set up. I find being versatile the key, slight tinkering depending on the oppositions formations. Now im set up as follows:

Balanced style, philosophy changes.

GK - Defend

WB - Attack / CD - Defend x 2 / WB - Attack

MCR - DLP support / MCL - CM Defend

IF - Attack / AM - support / IF - Attack

DLP - Attack

OIs - opposition full backs on close down always and show onto weaker foot.

i have my DLP marked as playmaker and i have closing down set to press more, all else is default.

*Against an opposition 4-4-2 i will use shouts "play wider, retain possession and exploit the middle" while using a balanced/standard approach. This allows me to stretch the opposition, use my numerical advantage through the middle while still overloading out wide with my attacking wingbacks.

*Against an opposition 4-2-3-1 (same as mine, and the one i come up against most often with the top sides) i will use shouts "push up higher, hassle opponents" while using balanced/control. I want to play as high up as possible, squeeze them in all areas and congest the pitch. The higher i can win the ball back, the quicker i can break at their defensive line and exploit the small gaps between the middle two and their defense.

A prime example of this can be seen in the following 3 screen shots as i squeeze high up, win the ball, break and create a CCC which i should score from.

*Against a 4-1-2-2-1 (DM,AMR/L) i tend to use a counter approach, using shouts "retain possession, look for overlap". I want my players playing a little deeper so they can find the ball against the over load of defensive numbers of the opposition. Allows me to build play up slowly and find gaps out wide with my wing backs driving on.

I dont tend to come across much else in the German leagues. These are the basic approaches i use, and i admit i will tinker with them if things aren't going exactly to plan. If the opposition is looking to press me and squeeze my space i might play a more direct approach, getting the ball forward and looking to pick up 2nd balls or get in behind. Its fine to have an idea of how you want to play, but don't think of it as the only way to play. This formation can be manipulated in so many different ways by the simple use of 1-2 shouts and a slight change in your philosophies. I havent touch player roles or positions since day 1.

[MichaelBrown]

Thanks for the responses guys, I am going to try this setup for a few games and see how it goes:

The theory is that the FC will push the opposition D-Line back and enlarge the space in the hole for the Treq. I see your points about the BWM but I kind of like having the creator/destroyer pair in midfield that both rarely make FWR similar to Gattuso and Pirlo. I am hoping that the SK can assist with the conceding of goals from long balls over the top. Also, I have switched the AMR to a Winger-Support so hopefully he can offer a short passing option to the RB, Treq and BWM as well as feeding the striker with first time crosses.

This is the movement I want so hopefully no one encroaches on each other's space.

I noticed that you put Kehl to drop deep (on line up builder) yet you have him as a BWM (d) where he will close down at any point on the pitch. I suggest you check the player instructions when you're considering player roles.

[matty2323]

I do not use any OI's or shouts as I would like to get a solid tactical system in place first before experimenting with them. If you do not mind, I would appreciate a suggestion on how to set the entire team up in a 4-2-3-1. I am looking to control games with short-ish passing and possession but I would like intelligent attacking movement from my forward players and a solid defence. I understand that playing a controlling possession game with a high line is risky but as long as I do not concede too many goals over a season, I would be happy

very hard to do this for a few reasons. You go into a game with 1 plan, you're completely relying on those instructions to win you games no matter how the opposition sets up, plays and counters your tactic. Will your tactic be offensive enough if the opposition plays deep, will it be defensive enough if the opposition squeezes all your space and counters quickly. This is why i leave almost every on default and use a few simple shouts as explained above. It will allow you more control over a game. I watch games on extended. I judge games by those little highlights, by the stats im given and by analyzing the report at half time. Nothing else, i like to fly through games like most people. You need to have a set shape and formation in mind that you want to play, but in your head have 4-5 different variations of this that can be adjusted by changing philosophy and adding a shout or two. Even the best team in the world (Barca) has been found wanting recently as teams shut down their natural methods of play.

[matty2323]

Just had a really big game against Bayern at home. They were sitting 4 points ahead of me after 11 games, having won 9 and drawn 2, scoring freely with 28 for and only 4 against. Now my scouting report tells me they play at a fast tempo and press high with a 4-4-2. (like you mentioned above when you played them in regards to their high pressing). Now player for player, they have the advantage. Going into the game i set up Balanced/Counter in order to play a little deeper. With them playing aggressively, i figured my deep line would force them further forward, freeing up space for my attacking midfielder as he dropped into the holes as their CMs push forward. I used the shout Exploit the middle to take advantage of my numerical advantage.

Even though the result was close, the win was convincing. As you can see, my passing exploited their weaknesses. My 2 CMs and AMC all had 50+ passes as they continually played around Bayerns set up. Important to note Bayerns passing and how poor the completion rate was. By playing counter and sitting deeper, when bayern won the ball the gap between their lines was bigger, forcing a more direct style of passing from them that i easily picked off. i had a huge amount of interceptions between 18-25 yards out from goal as by defenders and 2 CMs dominated. My positioning was excellent aswell, the shape was perfect. My AMC tends to push right a little more due to his "right only" restriction. A good example of going in with a plan, adjusting it with 1 or 2 shouts and picking off a top level opposition at will.

[ShirazS]

I noticed that you put Kehl to drop deep (on line up builder) yet you have him as a BWM (d) where he will close down at any point on the pitch. I suggest you check the player instructions when you're considering player roles.

I was adding the arrows based on the Run from Deep instruction because if you convert a tactic to classic, then a BWM has a backwards arrow although I do take your point on board regarding the high pressing. I am replaying the Bayern match a few times and limiting myself to one tactical change each time to see what effect it has.

[Os]

In my save, which I play the 4231 constantly, I have found that the guy playing in the hole can be easily defended. I decided to counter this by instructing 1 of my cm's to enter this zone constantly. I have found doing this ceates confusion for the defending team, I have either Will Hughes or Dembele in the cm role as they are extremely athletic and hardworking and defend and attack well. The roles I have set up are CMd, APs, AMs(in the hole) the tactic remains solid defensively and fluid attacking with many passing options in advanced areas.

p.s I play with advanced forward as I want to keep the oppo defence honest and pinned back maximising the space in front of the back 4.

[agentvinz]

Hey agentvinz,

Thank you for the response, I will give your suggestion a try. Should I keep the Treq as an AMC then or change to AP-Support like you suggested earlier?

Regards

Shiraz

Personally I prefer AP support because they'll defend more than Treq and also I never had success with treq in AMC position. I also notice the AP will sit in the hole more than treq, while the treq will often roam to the wing.

[Kamil-S]

Shiraz,

L.Piszczek is converted striker - he doesn't have defending abilities, I see no role for him other than wingback. J.Blaszczykowski was right fullback before joining BvB - he should help him as defensive winger/support with Kehl as anchorman dropped to DMR position. When facing formation with 2xDM it's hard for any player to dictate play from the hole so I prefer attacking AMC (AM/a, IF/a) and supporting FC against those formations.

[misterawesome]

I've been playing with a 4-2-3-1 with Spurs and have had a lot of success with a Treq as an AMC (Sigurdsson and Hamsik in that role). I, too, have also been playing with a BWM in the middle, regardless of the spacing issues created by his closing down.

I play my wingers as an IF-A and W-A. I then play with my corresponding fullbacks as WB-A and FB-A, so they are providing support to my wingers.

In my previous season, I played a Poacher as my lone striker, and he bagged 30 goals. My AMC and AML were my next highest scorers.

In my current season, I have tried to find a better balance between my AMC and ST roles, as the Poacher performance was hit-or-miss. I'm still trying to figure out how that works (Treq-DLFs has not been working), but I will be posting that as a separate thread so I don't hijack yours. Just hoping that this provides a little help for you as you re-work the formation.

[vasilli07]

Im 5 seasons in with Gladbach, and after finishing 6th in my first season, have won 4 consecutive titles with a 4-2-3-1 set up. I find being versatile the key, slight tinkering depending on the oppositions formations. Now im set up as follows:

Balanced style, philosophy changes.

GK - Defend

WB - Attack / CD - Defend x 2 / WB - Attack

MCR - DLP support / MCL - CM Defend

IF - Attack / AM - support / IF - Attack

DLP - Attack

OIs - opposition full backs on close down always and show onto weaker foot.

i have my DLP marked as playmaker and i have closing down set to press more, all else is default.

*Against an opposition 4-4-2 i will use shouts "play wider, retain possession and exploit the middle" while using a balanced/standard approach. This allows me to stretch the opposition, use my numerical advantage through the middle while still overloading out wide with my attacking wingbacks.

*Against an opposition 4-2-3-1 (same as mine, and the one i come up against most often with the top sides) i will use shouts "push up higher, hassle opponents" while using balanced/control. I want to play as high up as possible, squeeze them in all areas and congest the pitch. The higher i can win the ball back, the quicker i can break at their defensive line and exploit the small gaps between the middle two and their defense.

*Against a 4-1-2-2-1 (DM,AMR/L) i tend to use a counter approach, using shouts "retain possession, look for overlap". I want my players playing a little deeper so they can find the ball against the over load of defensive numbers of the opposition. Allows me to build play up slowly and find gaps out wide with my wing backs driving on.

I dont tend to come across much else in the German leagues. These are the basic approaches i use, and i admit i will tinker with them if things aren't going exactly to plan. If the opposition is looking to press me and squeeze my space i might play a more direct approach, getting the ball forward and looking to pick up 2nd balls or get in behind. Its fine to have an idea of how you want to play, but don't think of it as the only way to play. This formation can be manipulated in so many different ways by the simple use of 1-2 shouts and a slight change in your philosophies. I havent touch player roles or positions since day 1.

What shouts do you suggest for teams playing 3-5-2(Juventus)?

[matty2323]

im trying something very similar, the difference i only the DLP which i keep on supply duty.

the idea is to get him back and let amc occupy SC position with runs from deep. also dlf is supposed to provide passes for both inside forards and amc.

tragically, it is not working.

main problem with this formation is whjat someone said before. inside forwards have cut inside instruction, but it is on ball instruction, meaning the player won't move inside till he gets the ball.

this means he won't receive any through ball from dlp nor amc and it has knock on effect as full backs wont go past him as he is basically in aMR/L position.

any ideas how to solve this?

hows the off the ball stats of your inside forwards? the next question, is there actually any space for them to run into? If you're playing with an AF or Poacher, you're pushing the opposition defensive line deeper which obviously means less space for your IF's to run into. if you yourself are playing with a highline, then your IF's will become more ineffective themselves, but will allow the WB's to get around them during slow build up.

[matty2323]

What shouts do you suggest for teams playing 3-5-2(Juventus)?

um, well your natural strengths would be in the wide positions. Exploit the wings, look for overlap while playing more narrow. Push your ST on more, keeping the defensive line deep and occupied allowing more space between their midfield and defense (extra space for your IFs to work in). If you find you're being squeezed to much and cant break their midfield 5, then a more direct style of passing will help to skip that line.

[matty2323]

IF's are fine off ball, anticipation and decision, so they should have no problems finding space - if there is some, obviously not!

I play with DLF on support which shouldn't push the defence but it congests the hole a bit.

ill try playing narrower to allow WB's to go around IF's and see how it goes

ok well you seem to be doing everything right to suggest your IFs should be exploiting space. The next question is, who do you play as? are you always heavy favorites? if so, its going to mean opposition defenses play very deep, which in turns mean playing your IFs on support and your WBs on attack may help out. Theres lots of variations, try playing around with the counter/standard/control philosophies.

[lewis999]

What I sometimes find is whenever my CM's or DM (41221) play a ball into the feet of my LW'er or RW'er they are getting smashed through the back of by the other teams full backs. All I do is change them to support like Matty suggested and then straight away, the full backs are thinking do I go and try do the same and be even more out of position? Or do I stay in line with my CB's and let him have the ball at his feet. Alternatively if you like you're IF's making a lot of runs to push their full backs back into their own half then the shout drop deeper does the exact same thing and so your IF's can receive the ball to feet without being kicked up in the air by every full back.

[yonko]

Looking for a different challenge on FM13, I've chosen a save with Liverpool using a 4-2-3-1 with three variations like this:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Shorter passing

Default Creative Freedom

Press More

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Default Passing

Default Creative Freedom

Press More

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

More Direct Passing

More Expressive Creative Freedom

Press More

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

These 3 are all loaded into my Match Prep/Tactics screen for my team to learn, plus each variation has a different combination of shouts titled "control", "counter" and "attacking", respectively that suits/enhances each tactical variation. Obviously, I can use the "attacking" set of shouts, for example, with either Control or Counter tactic variation, as well. Or mix and match any of the shout sets with any of the tactical variations.

So far, I've gone through several friendlies, where I tried out different set ups, before settling on these. And have played only two official games - 2 legs of 3rd round qualifying for Europa League, where the team played well and I got a chance to see the difference between all 3 variations as I used them all in both games. I'm waiting for the start of the EPL season to see how it goes.

I'm still a little unsure about the roles/duties for the AM and ST positions in my preferred Balanced/Control variation. When I play Gerrard as AM/support and Suarez as AF/attack, they both become a little disconnected from my MCs (Lucas and Allen). My assistant recommends I play Gerrard in that role, but I think he might play better as AP/support (it will lower his mentality slightly and take away his roaming). If anyone is not familiar, he has "gets forward" PPM and so does Suarez. Meanwhile, my assistant recommends I play Suarez as CF/attack, I've chosen AF/attack (which I like as idea for my Counter), but thinking of trying DLF/support. I think AM/support role works if I play Coutinho in that position instead of Stevie.

Before anyone suggests, let me say that I don't want to use a Trequartista, neither for the AM nor the ST position, because I want one of my MCs to be the playmaker. Joe Allen was in this role in both games so far and he attempted around 120 passes and completed 90% of them in each game.

[Rashidi]

Sometimes I wonder why people like 4231 formations so much. Granted they play well, but in order for a team to exploit what the system can offer, you need to put players in vital positions who can affect games. And the positions I consider vital are:

Two MCs, the AMS and one of the DCs

Curious to see why noone has considered DWs, personally i think they are so much better than pure wingers. Against sides like Manchester United/City, the opposition struggle to get out of their half

[Babak G]

What sort of tactical set-up are you using? How are you faring with it?

[lewis999]

I agree with the defensive winger thing, they seem to be much more effective than out and out wingers with and without the ball.

[ShirazS]

Sometimes I wonder why people like 4231 formations so much. Granted they play well, but in order for a team to exploit what the system can offer, you need to put players in vital positions who can affect games. And the positions I consider vital are:

Two MCs, the AMS and one of the DCs

Curious to see why noone has considered DWs, personally i think they are so much better than pure wingers. Against sides like Manchester United/City, the opposition struggle to get out of their half

This might seem crazy but the reason I like the formation so much is because of the shape on the tactics screen

I know that the 4-1-2-2-1 or 4-2-3-1 Deep or 4-4-1-1 formations are a lot more solid and still potent going forward but the 4-2-3-1 with MC's is my favorite due to the shape.

[max787]

Curious to see why noone has considered DWs, personally i think they are so much better than pure wingers. Against sides like Manchester United/City, the opposition struggle to get out of their half

I personally don't use them because of concerns about stamina.

[Anaconda Vice]

Sometimes I wonder why people like 4231 formations so much. Granted they play well, but in order for a team to exploit what the system can offer, you need to put players in vital positions who can affect games. And the positions I consider vital are:

Two MCs, the AMS and one of the DCs

Curious to see why noone has considered DWs, personally i think they are so much better than pure wingers. Against sides like Manchester United/City, the opposition struggle to get out of their half

Is this how you would set it up rashidi?

The one thing I find difficult with defensive wingers is trying to find a player capable of fulfilling that role. It would be easier to fulfill it at MR or ML as there are a good number of FB/WB's that are at least competent at playing there.

[Rashidi]

Hmm... for me a successful 4231 is all about the players and the instructions,

these are currently my two AMs..I have only switched to a 4231 now cos of this thread, I will revert back to my favoured 4411, but since i consider the 4411 to be a variant of the 4231 I am perfectly ok using it, since both formations play essentially the same way except that the 4231 just decides to leave 4 upfront most of the time.

If you notice neither one of my players is particularly good at tackling, I don't really care about that I just need their bodies around for their concentration and anticipation, to intercept balls.

For me the weakest part of the 4231 is the fact that you essentially have two distinct groups, it can be a strength too, but only when attacking since you can flood so many players up. The challenge is the transition between defense and attack. The 2 MCs can lead to a collapse, so the one change I would make to the diagram i put up is essentially either play a TQ in AMC or have the AP set on support, that way he doesnt run too far ahead of the MCs who will be deep.

Players are the most important aspect of any tactic, you can take what looks like a great tactic and it will still collapse cos the players are not good enough for it, its easier to transition from a 4411 to a 4231, and for me personally I love it..but you need a good backline. The one thing I dislike about the TC is its proclivity for loving tight marking. I disable tight marking all the time, I worry that players get skinned too easily, i rather the AI play around my obstacles, not give it easy players to beat through acceleration. So those would be the changes I would make. Tight marking can work...but the moment you find your players being skinned too easily, you should consider removing it.

[Rashidi]

This is a very typical match overview, granted we should be scoring more, but my team has only turned to a 4231 in my last 4 games.

I strongly believe the 4231 is all about your players, and in this game like so many others my AMs were scoring.

[Anaconda Vice]

Blimey rashidi, the defensive wingers are the most dangerous thing I have seen on FM this year for me. Samaras and Brown are tearing teams apart at will. (May have to try Messi or Bale at DW)

[^Goose^]

Rashidi -

You say it's all about the players but what do you do with lower division teams where you tend to have to compromise since players in lower divisions tend to always lack one or two key atrributes for every role they play.

How do you go about deciding who to buy and who play when its not possible to have players they fit perfectly in to any given role?

[yonko]

Hmm... for me a successful 4231 is all about the players and the instructions

Isn't that true about any formation though?

If you notice neither one of my players is particularly good at tackling, I don't really care about that I just need their bodies around for their concentration and anticipation, to intercept balls.

Good point about the concentration and anticipation, but I also think positioning is vital attribute too. Jansen has 7, while Nawrocki has 14 - I wonder who gets more interceptions for you out of those two players?

The one thing I dislike about the TC is its proclivity for loving tight marking. I disable tight marking all the time, I worry that players get skinned too easily, i rather the AI play around my obstacles, not give it easy players to beat through acceleration. So those would be the changes I would make. Tight marking can work...but the moment you find your players being skinned too easily, you should consider removing it.

This is an interesting thought. So do you primarily use loose zonal marking for all your players?

[Rashidi]

Rashidi -

You say it's all about the players but what do you do with lower division teams where you tend to have to compromise since players in lower divisions tend to always lack one or two key atrributes for every role they play.

How do you go about deciding who to buy and who play when its not possible to have players they fit perfectly in to any given role?

Don't forget that's Stafford they rose from BSP playing 4231 as one of their formations...its covered in my Stafford thread. When you are in the lower leagues, you can't have it all, so I tended to focus on the key attributes for each position. For my wingforwards I just focused on acceleration and pace and the ability to score. For the MCs I just made sure they could tackle and pass. The higher the team went, the more i'd add..so if it was 11 pace and 12 acceleration in BSP it would become 13 pace and 15 acceleration in L2. Thats just an example, but in my Stafford thread, I showed what attributes I was looking at.

@ Yonko, yes it applies to all formations and tactics, but for the 4231 and the 442, its even more telling. In formations that play with a DMC you can afford to have one or two average looking MCs, but with a flat 4 midfield, an average MC becomes a weak link. And as far as positioning is concerned, I haven't really looked at it for a correlation for interceptions. I do look at DMCs and Defenders for positioning, but i never focused on my attacking players. And presently I do use loose zonal on all my players and only in very rare cases do i use tight zonal.

[yonko]

@ Yonko, yes it applies to all formations and tactics, but for the 4231 and the 442, its even more telling. In formations that play with a DMC you can afford to have one or two average looking MCs, but with a flat 4 midfield, an average MC becomes a weak link. And as far as positioning is concerned, I haven't really looked at it for a correlation for interceptions. I do look at DMCs and Defenders for positioning, but i never focused on my attacking players. And presently I do use loose zonal on all my players and only in very rare cases do i use tight zonal.

In which occasions would you opt for tight zonal marking and for which positions? And what do you consider an average MC for playing at English Premier League/Champions League level - 15+ or 14+ for key attributes for a given role (say DLP/d,s or CM/d)?

Also, I was thinking about what I want from my 4231 to do and this is it:

Make your football formation with this11.com

What roles and duties would you say would represent this picture on FM?

DR/L = FBs/attack, could be WBs/attack also

DCs = CBs/defend or one of them on cover duty

MCs = DLPs/defend

AMR/L = IFs/support

AMC = what role?????? (biggest question mark)

ST = AF/attack, CF/attack, or DLF/attack?

The AMC looks to need roaming and moves into channels, but with lower mentality - perhaps AP/support but with roaming ticked and wide play adjusted to moves into channels, right?

[vasilli07]

What roles and duties would you say would represent this picture on FM?

DR/L = FBs/attack, could be WBs/attack also

DCs = CBs/defend or one of them on cover duty

MCs = DLPs/defend

AMR/L = IFs/support

AMC = what role?????? (biggest question mark)

ST = AF/attack, CF/attack, or DLF/attack?

The AMC looks to need roaming and moves into channels, but with lower mentality - perhaps AP/support but with roaming ticked and wide play adjusted to moves into channels, right?

IMO, he is a mixture of winger(att) and advanced playmaker(att). Instructions will be crossing to often and roaming on.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/12/03/introducing-the-central-winger/

[yonko]

IMO, he is a mixture of winger(att) and advanced playmaker(att). Instructions will be crossing to often and roaming on.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/12/03/introducing-the-central-winger/

Yep, I was thinking something similar to what that article is talking about. I've been reading Zonalmarking a lot over the last few years and they have excellent articles. I've also been noticing how Sneijder and Ozil were used as AM in a 4-2-3-1 formation (interestingly, both under Mourinho's coaching), but not such much Xavi playing for Spain. Xavi is more about playing a withdrawn role and I'm not sure I would even say that he plays as AM for Spain - they use 4-2-1-2-1 often with a "false 9".

But the question is how do I set up an AM to play as a "central winger" in a 4-2-3-1? It will definitely require some manual adjustments from any of the default TC roles, I think. You say it will require crossing to be set to "often" and roaming on, but I also think that wide play needs to be set to "moves into channels". Now, the next question needing answer is what about mentality relative to the players around him? Should it be higher than the wide AMs? If yes, that would put this player maybe too far away from the MCs who are set up as DLPs. Should the mentality be lower, so he goes into the wide channels underneath the AMR/L who are pushing up and cutting in? How will it all combine with Inside Forwards and what ST role would work with that?

"central winger" = AM/support + roaming, crosses set to "often" and "moves into channels"

"wide forwards" = IF/attack - crossing set to rarely

"false 9" = Trequartista or DLF/support - wide play "normal" + roaming (DLF), crosses set to rarely

Or something like this:

"central winger" = AM/attack (roaming, moves into channels, crosses on often)

"wide attacking mids" = IF/support (roaming, cut inside, crosses rarely)

"number 9" = DLF/attack (normal wide play)

I guess it would also depend on the players' PPMs.

[Falahk]

For me the weakest part of the 4231 is the fact that you essentially have two distinct groups, it can be a strength too, but only when attacking since you can flood so many players up. The challenge is the transition between defense and attack. The 2 MCs can lead to a collapse, so the one change I would make to the diagram i put up is essentially either play a TQ in AMC or have the AP set on support, that way he doesnt run too far ahead of the MCs who will be deep.

this is more or less why my AMC ended up as a trequartista (with tackling set to normal and long shoots to rare), I felt that the AP was not dropping deep enough to link up properly with the two dlp's

[Outliar]

I don't know about the others but the reason why I would prefer a 4231 is because its easier to get better players in aml or amr slots as their natural position compared to normal left and right sided midfielders. Not saying you can't find them but it would take harder work retraining them and what not.

[Gee_Simpson]

I don't know about the others but the reason why I would prefer a 4231 is because its easier to get better players in aml or amr slots as their natural position compared to normal left and right sided midfielders. Not saying you can't find them but it would take harder work retraining them and what not.

The differences between 'natural' and 'accomplished' is minimal. Even competent is ok. As long as they have the attributes for the role and doing well then keep playing them in that position and retrain at the same time.

[Kawee]

I haven't read the thread yet, but a couple of odd things stand out in your tactic.

When you have a Treq, it means you want him to be the main man in your team. However, your team does pretty much everything to negate his effectiveness. The DLP passes will quite likely bypass him, and pinged towards the strikers and the IFs. Having 2 IFs, and a support striker also choke the Treq's space. You have 2 IFs cutting inside, and a support striker dropping all into the Treq's area of operation. This congest the area, brings pressure towards the Treq, and also provide him no passing option.