Zaltys Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Look at my goalie, full screen, highest quality! [video=youtube;5llO54heEDw] That seems familiar. [video=youtube;iyWAROrz7X0] Opponents goalie is doing the exact same dance here. (View in 1080p fullscreen.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmeth Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Don't read selectively, I've reported too few yellow and red cards and injuries to be realistic Don't rely on anything but your own judgement on the ME, relying on others will drive you slowly mad Reporting on others will drive me mad, yeah that's right !! I think to test it this evening and cause I have a match with fierce rivals ( those Sheff Wednsday dummies ) it will be a probing test Thx Kriss Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 That seems familiar.[video=youtube;iyWAROrz7X0] Opponents goalie is doing the exact same dance here. (View in 1080p fullscreen.) That's hillarious. It's like the keeper turns to the striker and says "be my guest". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niksa83 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 If you have a PKM of the match please post in the bugs forum and I can review itThanks David I checked and i have somekind of *pkm file for that match but it's only 60kb or so in size, is this the correct file? I post a link to the file in "match engine/3d and team talks" forum! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niksa83 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 That seems familiar.[video=youtube;iyWAROrz7X0] Opponents goalie is doing the exact same dance here. (View in 1080p fullscreen.) It sure is the same as my video! It sort of looks like the goalie goes all out "i dont care, go ahead and score" and points to the goal! HILARIOUS! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I liked the way he waved him through, all he needed to do was doff his cap as the striker ran by & the comedy effect would have been complete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 its pointless playing poor wingers that have nobody to cross to. its not pointless to play with very fast wingers crossing to a 6 ft 6 strikeram i the only one whos tactic has not been crippled by the update? 20/19 acc/pace and 18/18 crossing/dribbling. Otherwise good attributes. Doesn't make playing him -better- than using other formations, though. When it is necessary to be quicker and better at challenging opposition defenses than Gareth Bale in order to pose a bigger threat than my knuckledragger full-back, something is a bit overcompensated don't you think? If a 16-in-everything-needed winger just stands still and hit backpasses the entire match because he won't take on full-backs and/or cut inside and pass (rather than shoot), then it is indeed pointless playing wingers. Yes my insanely quick wingers (the one mentioned above + an 18/18 pace/acc on the other side) does manage to bypass defenders now and then and actually create something. I do win with 3+ goal margins every game, but I would rather watch paint dry while ripping out hair from my tigh one by one than watch them play. I want one-twos, combinations and clever pass-and-move, not a sprint show. Now I get that easily with a very basic 4-1-2-1-2. Much better. I will try out that tactic with this team now, and if a completely unfamiliar tactic just "clicks" like it has in the two other saves I have tried it I have effectively "cracked" this ME. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I have a feeling, this ME update either, literally, reset familiarity of both formation and tactics or my team suddenly forget about how to play football.I continued last save of Dortmund team, almost same players after 6 season. But under ME 1339 they looked like never played each other before. I watch some AI vs AI games, they are much promising, compared to last ME. But when my team play, they are terrible to watch. Poor decision everywhere, DLP released a through ball down to flank, fullback who is unmarked receive ball and pass it back to DLP immediately. What on earth this "poor decision" could happen in top level football? In counter attack, my players seems have no ideal about how to do it. Either cross to no man's land, or waiting for been tackled. The "poor decision making" FM13 try to simulate is very unrealistic for me. In beta ME, we have "poor decision" like, strikers have ccc but back pass to teammate. Even now, this poor decision are still in unacceptable level. For me, FM13 is most disappointing experience I have ever had. It start very promising and end up with disappointment. There lies the issue. The AI play good football, your side doesnt. Since the ME is the same for all sides, the issues lie at your end Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Couple of minor things, players seem a little too keen to make headers when they should attempt to bring the ball down with their feet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 There lies the issue. The AI play good football, your side doesnt. Since the ME is the same for all sides, the issues lie at your end Well, the AI is AI though and is able to make thousands of calculations and changes per second. Now, in my part, even if I did bother making those changes, I know I would just stop enjoying the game, since I play for the long-term save enjoyment, not the one-match/season enjoyment. And yes, even when those changes are shortlisted through the shouts. Generally, I personally don't enjoy being forced to play the same way the AI does, which is what the TC and the shouts are about. A matter of self-preference for sure,no offence to anyone. It's just doesn't feel like my cup of tea this year round. I have a strong feeling that instead of making the AI smarter, the game forced the player to play like the AI. Some people might be enjoying the way the game went this year when it comes to matches though. Personally I don't. Something that is a pitty,because going back to FM12 and missing awesome features like the new training focuses doesn't feel right and takes away part of the joy from there as well. The fact that adding/removing leagues is broken in FM12 doesn't help either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well, the AI is AI though and is able to make thousands of calculations and changes per second.Now, in my part, even if I did bother making those changes, I know I would just stop enjoying the game, since I play for the long-term save enjoyment, not the one-match/season enjoyment. And yes, even when those changes are shortlisted through the shouts. Generally, I personally don't enjoy being forced to play the same way the AI does, which is what the TC and the shouts are about. A matter of self-preference for sure,no offence to anyone. It's just doesn't feel like my cup of tea this year round. I have a strong feeling that instead of making the AI smarter, the game forced the player to play like the AI. Some people might be enjoying the way the game went this year when it comes to matches though. Personally I don't. Something that is a pitty,because going back to FM12 and missing awesome features like the new training focuses doesn't feel right and takes away part of the joy from there as well. You missed the point to be honest, and the AI doesnt make thousands of changes per second either (in fact we have more flexibility than the AI in terms of in game tactical approaches). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 You missed the point to be honest, and the AI doesnt make thousands of changes per second either (in fact we have more flexibility than the AI in terms of in game tactical approaches). I doubt there is any difference between the tactical approach between the AI and the user anymore. Especially since the most common advice on the tactics forums is to keep the sliders on default. In either case, I preferred developing a solid tactic and sticking to that. Since that is something that is not possible anymore, some of my enjoyment goes away. Regardless of whether this is a step forward or backwards for the game itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It's still problematic, because it's the pinpoint accuracy crosses that result in goals, whereas the run into space crosses seem to fail miserably. It should be a little other way around though.I think it has to do with ball physics. The ball never slows down after a long pass.If anything,it seems to actualyl accelerate. Long passes in space always result in goal kicks. If it happens to you and not to me then it cant be a rule. I do 50 yard passes into space, behind defensive lines and through channels. For me long direct passes almost always result in goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbert Fandel Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Im sorry Johnyfooty but I really struggle to see your viewpoint, although of course you are entitled to not enjoy the game for whatever reason you see fit. As for those GK videos, bloody hilarious, get bug reports in ASAP! One wonders if SI bug testers just couldn't be bothered with the hassle of letting their dev team down by pointing them out... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I doubt there is any difference between the tactical approach between the AI and the user anymore. Especially since the most common advice on the tactics forums is to keep the sliders on default. In either case, I preferred developing a solid tactic and sticking to that. Since that is something that is not possible anymore, some of my enjoyment goes away. Regardless of whether this is a step forward or backwards for the game itself. Actually there still is, for now anyway. And its certainly possible to create a solid framework and stick to it. It's exactly what I've done, adjusting team freedom and passing to accomodate the capabilities of whatever team I play as. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I doubt there is any difference between the tactical approach between the AI and the user anymore. Especially since the most common advice on the tactics forums is to keep the sliders on default. In either case, I preferred developing a solid tactic and sticking to that. Since that is something that is not possible anymore, some of my enjoyment goes away. Regardless of whether this is a step forward or backwards for the game itself. Default seriously? The only time people are told to go default is when they have messed sliders up so badly that they need to relearn. You start with the TC on default and learn slowly. The best tactics are the one buikt around a solid system and will feature some tweaks that are off default slightly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Actually there still is, for now anyway.And its certainly possible to create a solid framework and stick to it. It's exactly what I've done, adjusting team freedom and passing to accomodate the capabilities of whatever team I play as. Every time I create something solid in FM13 it doesn't seem to be as solid as it initially seemed. One season the team can dominate the league and the right next year they can find themselves a few places above the relegation spots, just because the players decided to stop playing football. Next year round again and the team is once again dominating. All without changing a single slider,role or player. In general,I don't feel like I actually influence the outcome of a match as much as I'd like to. That's my main gripe with the game right now. I can put up with many of the wtf? moments of how the game plays out if I had any evidence of why they occur other than that the player just didn't feel like playing this season, all while having super morale, being professional, determined and what not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gate Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 There lies the issue. The AI play good football, your side doesnt. Since the ME is the same for all sides, the issues lie at your end There are other things human player do in FM, like media talk, familiarity of tactic, interact with players, will affect team performance and we don't know if the same applied to AI team? Are there some performance-affected events only trigged by human player? For example, will AI manager try to play mind game with another AI manager? If not, then when ME calculated result of AI vs AI game, affection of mind game would be excluded. In situation above, "ME doesn't distinguish human team from AI team" stand correct. But result of calculation might be very different when ME take affection of "mind game" into consideration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 God if only the AI was able to make thousands of calculations a second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Not denying that I might be doing something wrong, just saying that: a) The game doesn't give me proper feedback about it. (<--most important reason) and b) It is frustrating seeing the engine playing matches out in extreme ends. One match your players are Messi/Ronaldo/"insert your favourite player here", next one they seem to have forgot to eat their breakfast. Once again, refer to reason a). And that kind of takes away a big part of the fun. Many times I've noticed people saying that FM12 and every FM before that was too unrealistic and arcady and that we finally reached realism, but at least they didn't feel so frustrating. (ok, some of them did have some issues which were infuriating to be fair.Like the morale plummeting after a manager comment in FM11.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 There are other things human player do in FM, like media talk, familiarity of tactic, interact with players, will affect team performance and we don't know if the same applied to AI team? Are there some performance-affected events only trigged by human player? For example, will AI manager try to play mind game with another AI manager? If not, then when ME calculated result of AI vs AI game, affection of mind game would be excluded. In situation above, "ME doesn't distinguish human team from AI team" stand correct. But result of calculation might be very different when ME take affection of "mind game" into consideration. All such factors also apply to the AI. If anything we have considerable advantages over the AI, simply because we are much smarter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govnar1 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 So it doesn't bother anyone that there are still twice as many successful tackles and interceptions in game than in real life? As long as number of completed tackles and interceptions stays this high there will be far too many possession cycles and game will be utterly unrealistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 There are other things human player do in FM, like media talk, familiarity of tactic, interact with players, will affect team performance and we don't know if the same applied to AI team? Are there some performance-affected events only trigged by human player? For example, will AI manager try to play mind game with another AI manager? If not, then when ME calculated result of AI vs AI game, affection of mind game would be excluded. In situation above, "ME doesn't distinguish human team from AI team" stand correct. But result of calculation might be very different when ME take affection of "mind game" into consideration. AI managers play mind games as well. It's those news of your inbox about managers making comments about you or your team. Comments like "X has what it takes to avoid relegation", etc. They also do have tactic familiarity as well. Kind of a different one, but they do have it. At least according to SI. And they also have player interaction as well. They even have players tutor youngsters really oftenly. You need to manage a B team to actually notice that it happens though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aiston Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Every single match now has yellow cards showing on the time line, before the match has even started. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gate Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 All such factors also apply to the AI. anything we have considerable advantages over the AI, simply because we are much smarter. How could you so sure? Are you from SI? No matter how "smart" human could be, as long as we could not "read" ME, there is little chance you can take advantage over AI. Unless you're talking about ME exploit. Many here played the same team, the same players, the same tactics since beta. But each major ME update shows different style of gameplay. That's why there are more complain than ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gate Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 AI managers play mind games as well. It's those news of your inbox about managers making comments about you or your team. Comments like "X has what it takes to avoid relegation", etc. I knew AI play mind game with human. The point is will AI manager play mind game to AI manager? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hluraven Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I knew AI play mind game with human. The point is will AI manager play mind game to AI manager? Yes - click on any AI Manager and see the tabs on their history. You will see press conference answers etc about other AI managers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I knew AI play mind game with human. The point is will AI manager play mind game to AI manager? Oh,excuse me for misunderstanding your sentence. This should be easy to find out I guess. Subscribe to an AI team+manager and see what comes up.I think they do play some mind games between them and also their players. I recall subscribing to an old team to monitor its progress and I remember seeing a talk to the media about how a striker should start scoring and stuff like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
looknohands Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I like the improvements so far. My basic 4-4-2 formation that I've been using for the past five years is finally starting resemble the success I had of old, with higher possession numbers and fewer shots overall (I prefer to shoot from in-close) than I had with previous MEs in FM 13. Results have been decidedly mixed, but the team is looking much more similar to my teams of old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 How could you so sure? Are you from SI? No matter how "smart" human could be, as long as we could not "read" ME, there is little chance you can take advantage over AI. Unless you're talking about ME exploit. Many here played the same team, the same players, the same tactics since beta. But each major ME update shows different style of gameplay. That's why there are more complain than ever. Because its been discussed to death in the past about what the AI actually uses in the match engine, its still limited compared to us. You can take advantage tactically relatively easily, if you know what you are doing. Got nothing to with exploits. It's really not the all conquering beast people think it is, though it's certainly getting better Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gate Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Because its been discussed to death in the past about what the AI actually uses in the match engine, its still limited compared to us. You can take advantage tactically relatively easily, if you know what you are doing. Got nothing to with exploits. It's really not the all conquering beast people think it is, though it's certainly getting better Mind providing link of SI making such confirmation? For me, "discussed to death" is not too convincing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I had behaviour tactic fluctuations, then i made my own, and it works still, and a few noticable but positive effects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigman Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 looking forward to the transfer update now the match engine seems better Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris21 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Rooney has 11 yellow cards in 20 games here...I'm guessing this is down to his temperament? Anyone clarify this? Or are there too many bookings in general? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Rooney has 11 yellow cards in 20 games here...I'm guessing this is down to his temperament? Anyone clarify this? Or are there too many bookings in general? I'd say his temprament and the fact he likes to dive into tackles. Not got the best tackling rating and he is relatively dirty IIRC. One of my more booked players, but then I do also use him as a forward destroyer as well as his attacking skill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevra Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I noticed the advantage for home team seems to be a bit exaggerated. Bayern Munich hammered Man City 4-0 at home and got beaten 0-6 away by the latter after a week. My Barcelona won 8-1 at home vs Fenerbahce as like their players dont exist on the field, and lost 1-3 away vs the same team, overclassed by them on each inch of grass (may be due to the Turkish insane stadium atmosphere?). That's not so realistic, top teams should be more able to perform consistantly under different situation. The advantage exists IRL, but doesnt turn a team into a totally different another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris21 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'd say his temprament and the fact he likes to dive into tackles. Not got the best tackling rating and he is relatively dirty IIRC. One of my more booked players, but then I do also use him as a forward destroyer as well as his attacking skill Aye I thought so. Plus I have trained him to be a MC so he's generally gets stuck in more too. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I noticed the advantage for home team seems to be a bit exaggerated. Bayern Munich hammered Man City 4-0 at home and got beaten 6-0 by the latter after a week. My Barcelona 8-1 at home and 1-3 away vs Fenerbahce (may be due to the Turkish insane stadium atmosphere?). That's not so realistic, top teams should be more able to perform consistantly under different situation. The advantage exists IRL, but doesnt turn a team into a totally different another. Could be an issue with sides getting too complacent when they have a big lead going into the 2nd leg & then taking too long to react when their lead starts to get eroded. Are you noticing this in the group stages or just the knock-out rounds? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Gaz Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I've played 6 full detail matches in my Torquay (L2) save. I am glad to see fullbacks either engaging the ball or dropping into position instead of getting stuck in no mans land like they used to. They are also tracking wingers right along the byline now, even saw 1 or 2 blocked crosses. Also pleased to see the pressing seems to be limited to 2 players now instead of the whole team "kids footie" ball chasing. Player positioning both on and off the ball seems to be a lot more sensible now. Long shots and super wingers have been toned down nicely now to more realistic levels. Throw ins and keeper distribution are still a bit off sometimes, but I can live with that. BWM's actually try and win the ball, DLP/AP actually try to make plays. The roles are more recognisable now and am starting to see visual evidence of different playing styles, where before it looked a bit samey no matter who the opposition were. Small sample size I know but the major problems have been fixed as far as I'm concerned. Going to crack on with this save until the transfer window update, usually start a Liverpool save but I'm going to hang on for Sturridge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevra Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Could be an issue with sides getting too complacent when they have a big lead going into the 2nd leg & then taking too long to react when their lead starts to get eroded. Are you noticing this in the group stages or just the knock-out rounds? Just a very small example size from the knock-out rounds cos I am just in this stage by the update. The mentality issue you raised is a rather rational factor, although I reminded my players to prevent complacent in pre-match team talk. Will keep going and look for further results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
av3ry Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Had two penalties and both hit the woodwork. Has that happened to anyone else or is that just extremely bad luck? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhay53 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Had two penalties and both hit the woodwork. Has that happened to anyone else or is that just extremely bad luck? Sounds like bad luck. Have seen more penalties awarded on corner kicks though. In a game yesterday Rooney backed into a player on a poorly taken corner and conceded a penalty. But the taking of penalties has seemed exactly the same to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbelig Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 After having played several games now with the new patch, I ahve to say I really really hope there will be another one cause I really enjoyed this game (yes, even with 3.2.2) and I'd hate to stop playing out of frustration... Before anyone jumps in to claim it's my tactics, it's not. I'm winning, that's not the point. I'm tired of seeing those high balls behind the defence (both from me and AI) that are usually met by a header even if the striker is outside the area... Point is, football looks bad and unrealistic now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunarsea Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Posted a new thread in the forum but had it closed & advised to post in this thread, even though it wasn't feedback per se! Anyhow... I'm wondering if someone could please post a video of a winger or an inside forward cutting in from the wing behind their marker, receiving a through ball from a central midfielder or striker & then scoring a goal. I'm trying to play a 4-2-3-1, have wingers/inside forwards set to cut inside, roam from position, run from deep often, etc & I simply am not seeing any through balls delivered to them, which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to play this tactic! Can someone please post a video of it actually happening, so I know that it is indeed a possibility with the latest update. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexiu82 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I have a problem with this update. Before I update to latest patch game was working fine. After update game crash at the start. I was trying everything starting of reinstal game and computer drivers. Can I repatch game to the oldest patch ??? Pleas help me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fancy Gaffot Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Is there a non ME feedback thread atm? I have lots of sackings since the update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Posted a new thread in the forum but had it closed & advised to post in this thread, even though it wasn't feedback per se! Anyhow...I'm wondering if someone could please post a video of a winger or an inside forward cutting in from the wing behind their marker, receiving a through ball from a central midfielder or striker & then scoring a goal. I'm trying to play a 4-2-3-1, have wingers/inside forwards set to cut inside, roam from position, run from deep often, etc & I simply am not seeing any through balls delivered to them, which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to play this tactic! Can someone please post a video of it actually happening, so I know that it is indeed a possibility with the latest update. Thanks. I do not use AM L/R's so the best I can do is my attacking full back cutting into the box & smashing home a through ball. [video=youtube;Dh1tD0yn7Xw] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriss Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Is there a non ME feedback thread atm? I have lots of sackings since the update. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/346754-*Official*-FM-13-Update-13.2.3-Non-ME-Constructive-Discussion-amp-Feedback Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescrews1 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 anyone else getting loads injuries? and a player sent off ever game am getting 4players injured a game and always a sending off for my team Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriss Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 anyone else getting loads injuries? and a player sent off ever game am getting 4players injured a game and always a sending off for my team Nah, usually have 2 or 3 injuries at most (half way through second season) Haven't had a single red in that time and less than 1 yellow per match (far too few for Argentina) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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