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Cleon

Planning Ahead - The Deep Lying Playmaker

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Whenever I create a tactic or develop a player I am always thinking ahead and looking at the bigger picture. If we are talking tactics then I try to envisage how I want the roles to interact with each other and have a certain play style in mind. So over time I’ll try to evolve the play to the ideas I have in my mind. Or if I’m thinking about a player then I’ll not think of him as the raw undeveloped player, I’ll see him as the fully developed 27 year old with the required attributes and PPM’s to do what I ask of him. Basically everything I do is a step towards my end goal and a step towards creating how I think something should work. Hopefully this thread will highlight this and show you an insight into my thinking and planning.

I’ll only be writing about one player and one role but its a vital position for what I have in mind and will be the main role within the squad. That role is - The deep lying playmaker.

To give you an idea of how I play here is the basic shape and roles that I currently use;

Tactic.png

You can ignore the actual settings though because I change them depending on how the game is going and on the weather conditions. But that’s the shape and roles that I use in this particular saved game. The above is the shape I’ll play throughout this Newcastle save but the roles will change once I’ve trained the player below up.

The idea is that as I get stronger and bring different kinds of players into the club then the tactic will need to evolve to make the most of this. Ideally after 3 seasons or so I want to dominate possession in games while at the same time been effective with the possession I have. I want to still score goals but retain possession the best I can. The type of possession I want is slow patient build up from the back but once inside the oppositions half then I want to be devastating. It’s not going to be that easy to achieve but it is doable.

To play this way I will have to ensure I have players who are capable of doing this and more importantly, someone who can be the centre of everything and be a passing outlet. This is where the deep lying playmaker comes into play. This is the role that can provide me with all these things that I want and need. Now because of how FM works and is biased towards goals/assists, I don’t expect my deep lying playmaker to get exceptional ratings because I doubt he will get many of those. However that doesn’t mean he can’t be involved in everything and offer much more to the team.

But before we get into what he offers to the team and talk about the role in more detail, I need to identify a player who will be capable of doing all this. Now people might think that because I am Newcastle that Cabaye and Tiote could do the role of a deep lying playmaker. While I agree in principle that Cabaye could do it and be effective, he isn’t the right type of playmaker that I seek. So due to this I set about looking for someone who is young and more suitable for the role.

Meet The Player

Cirigliano.png

Now I’m guessing he might not exactly be many peoples first choice but I think he’ll be great after a little bit of training.

The fault with Ezequiel Cirigliano is his personality, it’s balanced which means he isn’t good at anything. So when I buy him I’ll be tutoring him to get that changed for the better. On a plus side though he already has the PPM plays short simple passes.

So what made me choose him?

I’m a massive fan of this player in real life and have watched him play many times so that was a big decision in me buying him, not that it would make any difference to FM. But I like to buy players I like in real life. But that aside I think he has a good set of core attributes for his age for the deep lying playmaker role.

  • 14 passing
  • 15 technique
  • 13 composure
  • 14 creativity
  • 13 decisions
  • 14 flair
  • 14 teamwork
  • 14 workrate
  • 13 tackling

Are all quite high already so that’s a bonus. Plus its hard to find someone who can be creative and still do the defensive side of things too which his attributes should allow. While he is to be the main focal point of the tactic when we have possession, he still needs to do the nitty gritty stuff and is still expected to be an exceptional defensive midfielder who offers protection to the back three.

I’m not buying him to play the deep lying playmaker role from the start, this is something he will do in the coming seasons but he’s not ready yet so will be used mainly as the defensive midfielder and provide cover for Tiote.

Luckily for me I had my £7 million offer for the player accepted by River Plate and signed him at the start of the season.

Training & Tutoring

The first thing I did was to get him tutored by Cabaye who is fairly determined. I would have paired him with Tiote who is determined but he got injured so that wasn’t an option unless I waited a few weeks but I didn’t really want to waste time.

Cabaye.png

I decided I’d work on these attributes in a cycle of 2 month periods meaning that I’d focus on one of these for 2 month then move onto the next one;

  • Tackling
  • Technique
  • Passing
  • Positioning
  • Stamina
  • Strength

It’s important that he can still defend so I’ve worked on this part of the game first so he doesn’t lack in these attributes. Plus he is already playing the defensive midfielder role so he needs to required attributes to pull it off effectively.

End of Season One Progress Update

At the end of the first season I could start to see that Ezequiel Cirigliano was developing into the player I thought he would. He’s still not the deep lying playmaker standard yet but he is progressing along nicely.

Ciriglianoes1.png

I’ve managed to change his personality type via a successful stint of tutoring from Cabaye, so now he is spirited which is better than balanced. He also managed to pick up a PPM from the tutoring session which was the tries killer balls often PPM. Which was good news because it means I didn’t need to teach him that one now, so it saved me a few months work. As soon as the tutoring session ended I started training Ezequiel Cirigliano the PPM dictates tempo to add to his PPM list.

The improvements from training are also visible and you can see he has improved quite a lot during this first season. He’s looking like a really good player now and that it was £7 million well spent.

Here are his stats for the first season;

s1stats.png

End of Season Two Progress Update

This was a massive season for both the player and club with us playing champions league football. Plus we were the defending league champions and looking to retain the title. So there was a lot more harder games and every game became a bit game in my eyes.

Because of how Ezequiel Cirigliano was developing I decided that halfway through the second season rather than focus on single attributes I’d focus on a role. So I stuck him on the deep lying playmaker role and gave it an heavy intensity. I did this because I felt the player had progressed more than enough on the attributes I had worked on the previous season. Plus he had developed some of the other attributes to a more respectable level as well.

This is what he looks like at the end of the second season;

Ciriglianos2.png

That’s some pretty impressive improvements across the board. This is down to training and the exposure to first team football. Because he improved this good it enabled me to cash in on Tiote and sell him for £30 million.

It also meant that half way through the second season (well a bit before actually but I can’t remember the exact date) I was able to try Ezequiel Cirigliano as the deep lying playmaker and see how it went. Even though he still doesn’t have the PPM’s that I require, from an attribute standpoint he does. He played the role excellent, so good infact that I never changed back. So the tactic now looks like this;

s2shape.png

Nothing as drastically changed as you can see. However the way the tactic plays and how involved the deep playing playmaker has.

Before we look at how he played the role its worth noting that I managed to teach Ezequiel Cirigliano a couple more PPM’s during the season. So the ever growing PPM list now looks like this;

ppmlist.png

Some of you might think some of those passing PPM’s contradict each other but that’s not the case. All I am doing is encouraging the player to do these more often depending on what the situation is. So when its needed he’ll do simple passes but when the opportunity arises he’ll look for the killer balls

The same with the stops play and dictates tempo ones. While I want the player to use his own intelligence and decide when to speed to play up and slow it down. I feel that slowing play down and assessing the options and allowing players to get into better position suits this tactic and the way its setup, hence why he also has the stops play PPM. But when the time comes when play should be speeded up he still does that as well but majority of time he plays a slow build up and looks at all his options. For me this ties in with the tries killer balls often PPM and suits it well.

These were his playing stats at the end of season two;

s2stats.png

As you can see he was a lot more involved and did quite a few more passes compared to season one. Hopefully this is something that I’ll be able to keep building on as I strengthen the squad and bring in players who can complement the system I play and make use of this possession.

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When I get time towards the weekend I'll try and include some footage and screenshots to show you what and how he does things in a game.

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Annoys me that I come into these threads looking for ideas, and then you see attribute progression like this and feel wholly inadequate!

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Awesome player, just yesterday in preseason 3 of my Liverpool save i sold henderson for £34million and bought Cirigliano for £6Million as a replacement. Hes 22 now so i cant tutor him, but his stats are only 2-3 below Hendos.

I like using a DLP, but with the current ME i find them useless in my 4-1-2-2-1 formation due to little to no through balls, so i find having him as an adv playmaker who can make runs forward far superior atm. hopefully when the new patch hits my DLP will become more useful again.

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Annoys me that I come into these threads looking for ideas, and then you see attribute progression like this and feel wholly inadequate!

I've run into Cirgliano before on a previous save, even the AI managers turn him into a world beater, no offence cleon. :cool:

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Nice insight regarding the PPM. I never thought "plays simple passes" would play nicely with "killer balls". I thought you'd get more assists from him but I guess he's the man with pass just before the goal action.

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you bought him for £7m? I payed £5,8m after some taping up in the media :p, thought I had to pay more wage :(

will be intresting to see how he will get on for me since I have a slightly different plan in mind, hopefully he have as much PA on my save thought as he seem to have a yours cleon

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I found this guy after ending my first season with Monaco being promoted to Lige 1.

I chose to pay close to 6M to get him being my most expensive signing exactly because I saw my midfield boss on him. The only disadvantage is his height and jumping as he lose many battles in the air.. but his progress and type of football he produced during my second season (2nd , qualified for CHL) was amazing.

He is now one of my favourite FM13 players and my recomendation to any side (+ he has a second nationality!).

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Coincidentally I signed Cirigliano myself at the start of the 4th season for my Hull team, to slot straight into the side as a Deep Lying Playmaker. I actually got him for free as River weren't renewing his contract. Unfortunately at 23 he's too old to be tutored so I can't improve his personality (stuck at Balanced/Media-friendly), and his attributes are lower than he has for you (a result of 3 full seasons without focused development) but even so he's performing admirably in the role.

What I can do (and already am) is work on his PPMs, focused training and regular game time to try to fill as much of his remaining potential as possible in the next couple of seasons, though at 23 time is running out for that. He started with Short Simple Passes and already started working on the killer balls PPM you've also identified as key - hopefully he'll complete that shortly so I can assign another.

cirigliano.jpg

I would've loved to sign him earlier as I doubt he'll improve much now, at 23 and a less than ideal personality, but if I can get his Positioning (12), Marking (13) and Strength (13) all up to 15 through specific focus without him dropping any creative attributes I'll be happy. Will see what happens :)

Edit: Your results with him are very impressive, a great illustration of how correct tutoring and personality improvement help.

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Looks like Steklo to me.

I'm really liking the Non Transparant background, I've downloaded Steklo but the background for player attributes is transparant which i hate;

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Annoys me that I come into these threads looking for ideas, and then you see attribute progression like this and feel wholly inadequate!

Sorry :(

Awesome player, just yesterday in preseason 3 of my Liverpool save i sold henderson for £34million and bought Cirigliano for £6Million as a replacement. Hes 22 now so i cant tutor him, but his stats are only 2-3 below Hendos.

I like using a DLP, but with the current ME i find them useless in my 4-1-2-2-1 formation due to little to no through balls, so i find having him as an adv playmaker who can make runs forward far superior atm. hopefully when the new patch hits my DLP will become more useful again.

There not that useless now and he still does a ton of thru balls there just lower down the pitch because he hardly ever is to high up the pitch.

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I've run into Cirgliano before on a previous save, even the AI managers turn him into a world beater, no offence cleon. :cool:

None taken. Although I doubt many will use him as good as I will :cool:

Nice insight regarding the PPM. I never thought "plays simple passes" would play nicely with "killer balls". I thought you'd get more assists from him but I guess he's the man with pass just before the goal action.

Deep lying playmakers don't get many assists because they are not advanced enough. He is the start of everything we do though, he is always available for a pass. He plays pass and move football and just wanders around in deep open space all the time.

you bought him for £7m? I payed £5,8m after some taping up in the media :p, thought I had to pay more wage :(

will be intresting to see how he will get on for me since I have a slightly different plan in mind, hopefully he have as much PA on my save thought as he seem to have a yours cleon

I could have got him cheaper but I didn't want to mess around because he's the player I needed :D

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Just out of curiosity, what was wrong with Cabaye?

Poorer at tackling, no pace, DMC not his natural position, poor flair, not enough agility really to turn quick and pass the ball if needed. Already probably at max PA and no room for improvements and is 27.

I could go on :D

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I'm really liking the Non Transparant background, I've downloaded Steklo but the background for player attributes is transparant which i hate;

You click the icon in the top left corner on the title bar and change the transparency there. You can even make it light/darker and choose the type of background you want.

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Sorry :(

You're forgiven, as long as you adopt my new Italian newgen for a year or two and give him straight back when he's had a Cleon workout!

He's so good I'm desperate to make him as good as he should be capable of.....

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You click the icon in the top left corner on the title bar and change the transparency there. You can even make it light/darker and choose the type of background you want.

You My girl are a star. Thank you very much :)

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You're forgiven, as long as you adopt my new Italian newgen for a year or two and give him straight back when he's had a Cleon workout!

He's so good I'm desperate to make him as good as he should be capable of.....

What position?

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Striker - currently best role is supposed to be AF, but I need to mould him to be a DLF (S). Have never seen anything like him as a 15 year old.

He's post #230 in here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/319617-FM13-Rate-My-Regen-Thread/page3

Ahh he reminds me of the ones I wrote about in FM12 for my Youth Development Thread. Love it when they are good at that age.

Are you teaching him plays with back to goal and plays one two's?

I certainly could use him though as my DLF, I'd have him awesome by time he's 17. How much to loan him off you? :D

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Cleon I think you've made the Defensive version of Xavi if that makes sense.

The PPM's you've taught him practically mirror this, I expect knowing you this isn't by chance either ;)

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Ahh he reminds me of the ones I wrote about in FM12 for my Youth Development Thread. Love it when they are good at that age.

Are you teaching him plays with back to goal and plays one two's?

I certainly could use him though as my DLF, I'd have him awesome by time he's 17. How much to loan him off you? :D

Seem unable to train the PPMs at the moment (because he's only 15?), but those were the ones I had in mind.

Attribute training on first touch to start with, tutored by Messi.

My newgens need to all step up as my massacre of the Barca first team saw Pique (30), Alba (28) and Busquets (29) sold in the summer.

This Italian will play DLF, and push out another brilliant newgen to a more suited IF role.

Loan fee? I don't think so! Plus I think this guy may avoid my 28+ years of age cull in 13 years time.

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Seem unable to train the PPMs at the moment (because he's only 15?), but those were the ones I had in mind.

Attribute training on first touch to start with, tutored by Messi.

My newgens need to all step up as my massacre of the Barca first team saw Pique (30), Alba (28) and Busquets (29) sold in the summer.

This Italian will play DLF, and push out another brilliant newgen to a more suited IF role.

Loan fee? I don't think so! Plus I think this guy may avoid my 28+ years of age cull in 13 years time.

You can't learn PPM's when been tutored, so if you want him to learn them either do inbetween tutoring or after you've moulded his personality :)

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absolutley brilliant thread, without speaking out of turn. would be possible for similar threads on other positions? for the novice players like myself.

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+ 4 for tackling and decisions, +5 for strength, + 6 for positioning in 2 seasons... Good training. :thup:

I had a prospect DMC who increased by 6 for positioning (13 to 19) over 2 seasons, but 5 for strength, 4 for marking and 3 for passing, decisions, agility, flair and workrate over that time. It may be that positioning develops faster than other attributes through a combination of training and match experience. He spent the entire time on DMC specific training, no tutoring and plenty of game time.

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absolutley brilliant thread, without speaking out of turn. would be possible for similar threads on other positions? for the novice players like myself.

Maybe but it's not something I have time for at the minute because I am working on a massive FM tactic project that wont be ready for a few months. So that kind of takes my time up at the minute. I only did this one as an experiement because it took 10 minutes to write up :D

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Interesting thread :thup:

The formation and roles you're using are very similar to the system I'm currently using in my game, and I too enjoy having a good DLP to build my attacks.

I tend to move him based on the opposing formation. If my opponent has an AM in the hole, I'll play a defensive player at DM and put my DLP at MC. Whereas if they do not have anyone in the AM position I'll put my DLP at DM.

I have never previously considered teaching the Plays Short Simple Passes PPM to a DLP; it's something I've tended to add to defenders or defensive midfielders who are not very good at passing. I'd be interested to see it in practice.

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Loving the development of this lad over those seasons. Who was he tutored with after Cabaye to get his determination even higher?

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Interesting thread :thup:

The formation and roles you're using are very similar to the system I'm currently using in my game, and I too enjoy having a good DLP to build my attacks.

I tend to move him based on the opposing formation. If my opponent has an AM in the hole, I'll play a defensive player at DM and put my DLP at MC. Whereas if they do not have anyone in the AM position I'll put my DLP at DM.

I have never previously considered teaching the Plays Short Simple Passes PPM to a DLP; it's something I've tended to add to defenders or defensive midfielders who are not very good at passing. I'd be interested to see it in practice.

Is there a reason why you do this? The DLP can tackle and do everything a DMC/Anchor can do. Unless your DLP isn't good at the defensive side of things?

Loving the development of this lad over those seasons. Who was he tutored with after Cabaye to get his determination even higher?

He wasn't tutored again because he learnt PPM's instead, you cannot do both only one or the other. Determination rises with age too remember :thup:

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He wasn't tutored again because he learnt PPM's instead, you cannot do both only one or the other. Determination rises with age too remember :thup:

Determination can also be increased with disciplinary measures too - up to a ceiling of about 16 I believe. If you discipline a player for a poor performance you can increase his work rate or determination depending on how the player responds (or throw a hissy fit too).

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Determination can also be increased with disciplinary measures too - up to a ceiling of about 16 I believe. If you discipline a player for a poor performance you can increase his work rate or determination depending on how the player responds (or throw a hissy fit too).

Indeed it can :)

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Indeed it can :)

Well slap my thigh, I never knew that. I don't think i've ever seen (probably more noticed) a players determination rising on its own.I've always just assumed tutoring did the trick. I know disciplinary measures could reduce aggression though.

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Nice thread Cleon, but I have a question for you.

Why make this trainingprogram when the game already "knows" how good he can be?

This is what i dont like about fm. Its predicted how much attributes each and every player can reach. If you have heard of/used a program called Genie scout, it can show you each players optimized attributes.

Is i because you surely want him to reach these attributes, or is it to get there faster? If a player has 17 passing in potential from genie scout, he will never reach 18. I think that is sad, if you put him in the necessary training

and play him regularly in a big club..

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Nice thread Cleon, but I have a question for you.

Why make this trainingprogram when the game already "knows" how good he can be?

This is what i dont like about fm. Its predicted how much attributes each and every player can reach. If you have heard of/used a program called Genie scout, it can show you each players optimized attributes.

Is i because you surely want him to reach these attributes, or is it to get there faster? If a player has 17 passing in potential from genie scout, he will never reach 18. I think that is sad, if you put him in the necessary training

and play him regularly in a big club..

Genie scout isn't accurate though and the attributes you see on that are just a 'guess' at what the programme (not the game, remember this, its vital) thinks they might be. If you don't believe me I can show you examples.

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I remember i tested this out years ago. I had a player who in genie scout could get max 14 finishing. He was 17 years old and had alot of potential in other attributes. At 17 years of age he had already 13 in finishing. I though; this would be the best striker in the game if he only could get atleast 16-17 finishing. So i put him in training for this, while using him regularly in liverpools firsteam. After a couple of seasons he stopped at 14....

Maybe this was a one timer then, because i believe you know more about this than me. No examples needed. Actually, im happy to hear this, and i hope you are right.

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I remember i tested this out years ago. I had a player who in genie scout could get max 14 finishing. He was 17 years old and had alot of potential in other attributes. At 17 years of age he had already 13 in finishing. I though; this would be the best striker in the game if he only could get atleast 16-17 finishing. So i put him in training for this, while using him regularly in liverpools firsteam. After a couple of seasons he stopped at 14....

Maybe this was a one timer then, because i believe you know more about this than me. No examples needed. Actually, im happy to hear this, and i hope you are right.

That's why people shouldn't put faith into 3rd party software, because with things like this they are always wrong :D

Just to show you how badly Genie is though here is an example. I've cut off the PA though for spoiler reasons as I know a lot of people who read my threads don't like to know things like this;

62138527.png

According to Genie that is the maxed out potential of all attributes. However its very wrong and here is the player;

36227450.png

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Unlike PA which is fixed, Genie's potential rating can change fairly dramatically once you get a player into a coherent training plan. I wouldn't rely on it too much and don't read it like you might read a PA figure, it can underrate a player (as per Cleon's example above).

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Good training regimes can drop useless attributes and increase useful ones at their expense.

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Cleon, I love how you use only DLP as a specialized player role in your second tactic screen. :)

I tried something similar with 3-5-2/5-3-2 but I didn't have the nerves to get through the bad start.

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I tend to move him based on the opposing formation. If my opponent has an AM in the hole, I'll play a defensive player at DM and put my DLP at MC. Whereas if they do not have anyone in the AM position I'll put my DLP at DM.

Is there a reason why you do this? The DLP can tackle and do everything a DMC/Anchor can do. Unless your DLP isn't good at the defensive side of things?

It's partly that my DLP is usually not as proficient at defending as my available defensive midfielders.

But it's also an attempt to put him somewhere that he can find the most space. I tend to observe (in my setup) that a DM DLP will be more effectively marked by the AM; compared to when an MC DLP is dropping out of the midfield line away from his opposing MC.

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Maybe but it's not something I have time for at the minute because I am working on a massive FM tactic project that wont be ready for a few months. So that kind of takes my time up at the minute. I only did this one as an experiement because it took 10 minutes to write up :D

no probs, was a little cheeky in asking. look forward to your latest project.

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Another great thread mate :thup:

In a way I hate your new threads, i think ive got everything sussed then you throw something out there and get me thinking again!

Funnily enough Ive gont back to my love.. my precious 4222 BOX and I think Ive mastered it for FM13. One of the reasons was to bring up, nuture and train a DM i had into the ultimate DLP. Ive been doing cylces of 3 months so roughly two a season going between a Anchor, DM, DLP to even a MC + AP to bump up his creativity. Personally I think this kid is the real deal, the only thing holding backis his flair, the rest are either there or on the way up.

One question I have is if im sitting him as DM (left side, the DMR is the beast ball winner) is not having the flair a huge bed wetter? He has PPM's to dictate play and switch to channels. Be good to have your thoughts...

a9top.jpg

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Another great thread mate :thup:

In a way I hate your new threads, i think ive got everything sussed then you throw something out there and get me thinking again!

Funnily enough Ive gont back to my love.. my precious 4222 BOX and I think Ive mastered it for FM13. One of the reasons was to bring up, nuture and train a DM i had into the ultimate DLP. Ive been doing cylces of 3 months so roughly two a season going between a Anchor, DM, DLP to even a MC + AP to bump up his creativity. Personally I think this kid is the real deal, the only thing holding backis his flair, the rest are either there or on the way up.

One question I have is if im sitting him as DM (left side, the DMR is the beast ball winner) is not having the flair a huge bed wetter? He has PPM's to dictate play and switch to channels. Be good to have your thoughts...

a9top.jpg

Wait until you see what I do for me next thread :D

His flair wouldn't really be an issue but he also has bad technique which is how good he is with the ball at his feet. So it's pretty vital for a DLP imo if you are a top side, which after all this time and the amount of time you've been off the forums would suggest you now are :D

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Im only guessing its pulling a monkey from your advanced, anchored, sweeping, creative, keepers behind?! If not im going to be sorely disappointed!

It might be worth having him as a DM crusher then? I will show my alternative DLP when i get home.

Ive been away fine tuning actually but every now and again someone posts something useful :p

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Im only guessing its pulling a monkey from your advanced, anchored, sweeping, creative, keepers behind?! If not im going to be sorely disappointed!

It might be worth having him as a DM crusher then? I will show my alternative DLP when i get home.

Ive been away fine tuning actually but every now and again someone posts something useful :p

I'm pleased you've gone back to the boxed formation though, that's your true roots with Dag & Red :)

It's much more flexible too because it can be a 442, 4231, 451 lop sided like you was using and so on. So much variation :)

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yes, technique is very important, probably more so then the passing attribute, I think thats the main reason as to why Cirigliano have looked better then Scott Parker so far for me

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