Ajax Youth Development – When The Real World Meets Football Manager

[mikcheck]

Cleon do you think that something like 13 to 15 first team complete games per season it's ok to develop attributes in youngsters?

[soccer.joel]

This youth development thing has reignited my interest in my Arsenal save and made me more aware about developing young talent. At the start of each season starting from last season I have written down a table of what to focus players on in individual training split into 3-month periods and my aim of how much first team football they should get. This philosophy has allowed a number of young talent to grow, massively

[soccer.joel]

Here are my best developed players. Note I only started on my plan last season. All then images are on the only backup a few seasons old I could find

Before I signed Moreno he had potential

He has developed very well. 20 passing sums him up

Carlos was promising and I hoped would be Vermaelen's long term replacement

He has developed into a great ball playing defender

De Groot returned to Ajax until the end of last season. Where I bought him back

He's been an amazing CM-D this season. Scoring his goals from free kicks

All of these players are still young and I expect them to continue to grow

[Cleon]

Cleon do you think that something like 13 to 15 first team complete games per season it's ok to develop attributes in youngsters?

Depending on the age of the players and exactly how much development they need then yeah that is a decent number.

[Cleon]

Here are my best developed players. Note I only started on my plan last season. All then images are on the only backup a few seasons old I could find

Before I signed Moreno he had potential

He has developed very well. 20 passing sums him up

Carlos was promising and I hoped would be Vermaelen's long term replacement

He has developed into a great ball playing defender

De Groot returned to Ajax until the end of last season. Where I bought him back

He's been an amazing CM-D this season. Scoring his goals from free kicks

All of these players are still young and I expect them to continue to grow

Some nice development

[aderow]

Is it better to give all your youngsters as much first team experience as possible or is it better to get them the right personality first?

[Cleon]

Is it better to give all your youngsters as much first team experience as possible or is it better to get them the right personality first?

First team experience is the most important thing. If they have the right personality they'll also develop better/quicker in most cases.

[soccer.joel]

Some nice development

Thank you

[mikcheck]

Depending on the age of the players and exactly how much development they need then yeah that is a decent number.

Thank you!

[Siven]

Used the low general training and high individual training with 10% match prep for a long time (overall first team heavy workload/ Youth team medium workload), but atm i have gone back to average general, average individual (heavy if young/backup in first team) and 30% match prep (overall medium workload, heavy workload for youth/backups).

Reason being average/average/30% gives me and overall medium workload and hopefully better fitness between games for my first team players. Being a pemier league team in Europe, most of the time im playing 2 games a week. Well i am going to try it out anyway, not sure if it will make much difference.

[Cleon]

Used the low general training and high individual training with 10% match prep for a long time (overall heavy intensity)

It's not overall heavy when set to that.

Reason being average/average/30% gives me and overall medium intensity and hopefully better fitness between games for my first team players. Well i am going to try it out anyway, not sure if it will make much difference.

The training isn't the issue with fitness between games, this is down to a number of other things;

A - You have a team full of players with low natural fitness

B - You aren't subbing them enough

C - You aren't rotating players enough when you have 2 games in a week

D - The tactic you use is too demanding on the players you use.

E - You're not keeping everyone 100% match fit

Your issue will be one of the above

The training set out in this thread wouldn't cause players to be tired or struggle with fitness because it really is still a low workload due to it all been individual training. I have a game almost every 3 days for a full year, sometimes 3 games in 1 week. And I've never encountered the problem you have above.

Who are you managing?

I'd also be wary of keeping it on tactics focus as that will put focus on those attributes and you'll be neglecting stamina, NF and his other physical attributes

[Siven]

Ah yes your right.

I didnt take into consideration that i changed them midweek, when i hit sunday it did show low general/heavy individual as medium.

I think i need to rotate a bit more really. Tactic wise i dont think its too demanding, 433 supporting fullbacks, 1 support/1 att adv playmakers in midfield, attacking wingers, fluid, standard, short, default pressing, most players end the game between 71-78%. Playing as Liverpool.

[Fabian Jonsson]

First team experience is the most important thing. If they have the right personality they'll also develop better/quicker in most cases.

Speaking of. I noticed something when I was playing yesterday that I sort of knew already, but haven't really thought much about before. In one of my current saves, I changed from a rather defensive approach (I'm normally a pretty defensive manager), to a much more offensive one. And as a result the team now scores a lot more goals. Yes, the defense is slightly shakier, but not as much as I feared. The results have seen pretty much my entire team have MUCH higher average ratings than last year, eventhough we dominated the domestic league even more then. We've had similar results in all competitions, but still, the ratings have soared.

The reason is of course that goals and assists play a huge role in determining the match rating.

Which leads to my question/observation: when developing youth, it's better to go for a 3-2 than 1-0, right?

I feel as though my players develop much more quickly this year than before, but that may also be due to my training facilities being upgraded...

[Cleon]

The reason is of course that goals and assists play a huge role in determining the match rating.

Which leads to my question/observation: when developing youth, it's better to go for a 3-2 than 1-0, right?

I feel as though my players develop much more quickly this year than before, but that may also be due to my training facilities being upgraded...

It all depends on what the player does during the game. You could win 1-0 but the player you are developing is involved in everything. Yet you could win 4-0 and he does very little during the game. He'd develop better in the 1-0 wins in this example.

[Fabian Jonsson]

It all depends on what the player does during the game. You could win 1-0 but the player you are developing is involved in everything. Yet you could win 4-0 and he does very little during the game. He'd develop better in the 1-0 wins in this example.

Ok, so you're saying that match rating doesn't matter, but rather what they actually do? I didn't think it was that sophisticated. I though it was largely based on rating, and rating depends extremely much on goals and assists.

[Cleon]

Ok, so you're saying that match rating doesn't matter, but rather what they actually do? I didn't think it was that sophisticated. I though it was largely based on rating, and rating depends extremely much on goals and assists.

Players can get a boost on attributes by certain in game events. So having the player involved in a game increases his chances of this happening, especially if its something a player doesn't normally do. For example if you have a striker who might be a goal every two games kind of player and then he has a good day and gets 3 in 1 game. Then there is a chance he will see his finishing, composure or off the ball increase.

I'm not saying match rating doesn't matter. I'm just saying what a player does in a game can be vital and normally that comes hand in hand with a good rating anyway. Match ratings matter but there not the be and end all like the people who post in GQ make out. Lets say for arguments sake that you have 2 midfield players who are identical at everything, same personality, same attributes, play same position and so on. Yet one of them constantly gets 7.8 rating but doesn't score and is more involved in the play. Then the other player gets similar ratings but only because he gets the odd goal here and there which boosts his rating, but overall is less involved in play. Then the first player should develop better and at a faster rate than the second one, even though the second one gets more goals.

[Fabian Jonsson]

Players can get a boost on attributes by certain in game events. So having the player involved in a game increases his chances of this happening, especially if its something a player doesn't normally do. For example if you have a striker who might be a goal every two games kind of player and then he has a good day and gets 3 in 1 game. Then there is a chance he will see his finishing, composure or off the ball increase.

I'm not saying match rating doesn't matter. I'm just saying what a player does in a game can be vital and normally that comes hand in hand with a good rating anyway. Match ratings matter but there not the be and end all like the people who post in GQ make out. Lets say for arguments sake that you have 2 midfield players who are identical at everything, same personality, same attributes, play same position and so on. Yet one of them constantly gets 7.8 rating but doesn't score and is more involved in the play. Then the other player gets similar ratings but only because he gets the odd goal here and there which boosts his rating, but overall is less involved in play. Then the first player should develop better and at a faster rate than the second one, even though the second one gets more goals.

Yeah, ok, I get it. Well, now that I think about it, my midfield is the oldest and most established part of my team (not much room to grow), and it's mostly my defense and strike force that's been developing very well. Sort of makes sense that they have, since the strikers have scored a lot of goals, and the more attacking nature of the tactic has meant that my defenders need to stop more counters...

[Vaskkinho_back]

Hi Cleon , great thread.

I've been away from the FM Community for a long time, you might remember me for the "1st tactic creator", an excell file that you would put a few setttings and would give you a tactical framework, remember. I often look at the following FM Versions and i wonder if with that excel i did help to shape the future of FM

Well anyway and i'm losing my focus, I've followed your approach with great results. Created a golden generation that guided me trought 10+ years of sucess.

This being said, i've also tried a couple of experiments being the most successful to develop wonder kids specialists, the following:

U18 Trainning set either in Fitness or Tactics on a light basis. this way the un-targeted training goes mostly to attributes that are always needed, agility, off ball etc

Then for each youngster i will train his best attribute until this attribute it matches his age. then i'll switch the training to his 2nd best attribute again till it matches his age , Example

Jonh Doe 18 years

Finish 16

Pass 14

Off ball 13

I would start training finishing until it gets 18 (or 19 if it's next year). as soon has this accomplished i change to passing until it gets the age match.

Why?: I've often noticed that it's very hard to get an 18 with a 19 attribute or an 17 with an 18 attribute.

Also this way even if the PA is not very high i will get players that although they are not all around they are very good in a specific position with the correct instructions.

and finally i dont lose time trainning attributes that cant be improved by age.

What do you reckon of this technique? and again Great Thread.

[vkastanas]

After reading the thread all over again I decided to restart a seve with my favourite amateur indonesian club. One of the things I do differently now is that I use my players not to the positions given to them when you first start a game but rather to the positions they can better play based on their attributes. I have an ML/AML who I am playing as a full back for example.

I wanted to ask how long will it take to him to be comfortable to this new position?

I do train him to be a full back but should I train the attributes needed for a full back instead (ie. tackling)?

What do you think?

[Cleon]

After reading the thread all over again I decided to restart a seve with my favourite amateur indonesian club. One of the things I do differently now is that I use my players not to the positions given to them when you first start a game but rather to the positions they can better play based on their attributes. I have an ML/AML who I am playing as a full back for example.

I wanted to ask how long will it take to him to be comfortable to this new position?

I do train him to be a full back but should I train the attributes needed for a full back instead (ie. tackling)?

What do you think?

Each player is different and its down to the hidden attribute versatility on how quickly they'll learn it. Some players learn the position faster than others.

As for training them, I tend to work on individual attributes rather than giving them a role. So do which ever you prefer, there is no right or wrong answer

[vkastanas]

Thank you Cleon!

For the training question: I have read that you train attributes. What I meant was that atm I give him 100% training to learn the new position. If I trained the different attributes necessary for this position would he have learned it sooner. Or it depends on versatility and only versatility?

[fuhrerul]

what coach's attributes influence a player's development? motivating, hardness of training, determination, man management, working with youngsters or others?

coaching attributes like attacking or defending have an influence on player's development or only to the coach workload? there is any difference (for a player's growth) between 3-star workload and 5-star workload or just between 'easy' workload and 'medium' or 'hard'?

how big is the influence a coach can have on a player's development?

[Cleon]

Thank you Cleon!

For the training question: I have read that you train attributes. What I meant was that atm I give him 100% training to learn the new position. If I trained the different attributes necessary for this position would he have learned it sooner. Or it depends on versatility and only versatility?

It makes no difference, it's all down to his versatility

[LEEMOD]

Cleon, this is a fantastic read, I am going to read through it again with a big mug of coffee and make some notes, I am implementing some ideas in my own Welling United save and it is already paying dividends with me being able to spend most of my budget on older players with key PPM's and decent staff but by balancing this by selling most of my highest earners. I now have a squad where we have 13-15 first team players with 6 or 7 kids ready knocking on the door, with tutoring and heavy individual training I have really felt the benefit of molding players into the role/duty I wish them to play.

One thing if I may, in terms of choosing which players to really focus on do you take note of scout reports? For example, a player with half a star potential is hardly worth the time if say you have one or two players in the same position with 3/4*.

Thanks

Lee

[robterrace]

I've mentioned this player in several threads on here in the past, and I thought I'd update you all on how he's turned out after 5 years of developing.

I signed him on the back of an insane scout report which said he'd become a leading Premier League left winger, and with technical attributes like this at 18 years old, who can blame me for trying.

He cost me £12.5m, and a successful work permit appeal, and is mainly responsible for me changing the way I was going to set up the side in the future. I'd already found a playmaking midfielder who could provide the ball from the middle, and a solid left back who I could develop to link up well with both of them.

He needed a lot of work on his physical side, and also improvements to his mental attributes

Here he is just under a year later.

Some small improvements to his technical and mental attributes, but in the short time he's seen a 3 point improvement in his strength, which if he was going to play the 'Beckhamesque' winger role that I wanted him to play (swinging in balls and making lots of passes).

July the following year.

Again, his strength has markedly improved, and other attributes are increasing , a lot of it due to the match experience he's getting.

We come forward 2 and a half years now, to the 'present day' in game. He has improved remarkably well since the last screenshot, becoming the strong, technical left winger that I wanted to build him into, however, this season, he's added the goalscoring element that I didn't expect him to have. He's not just providing through his excellent passing ability, but also with his goals.

I'm also looking at retraining him to play in central midfield, so that in future years, when he loses some of his pace, he can still be a useful asset to the team.

[tomtuck01]

You've done very well on his physicals. Think he'd be unreal as a Trequartista or DLF.

[robterrace]

The problem I have though, is the lad who is playing as a Trequartista at the moment for me is doing a fantastic job, and is also another one who can play all across the front. Still, its something I'll have to look into, although, I think he may be slightly too big for that sort of thing.

[tomtuck01]

The problem I have though, is the lad who is playing as a Trequartista at the moment for me is doing a fantastic job, and is also another one who can play all across the front. Still, its something I'll have to look into, although, I think he may be slightly too big for that sort of thing.

More the, (in comparitive terms for an excellent Treq), lack of Agility rather than the size of the lad I'd say. If not, he could be unreal there.

[ModernLefty]

He would make an amazing, to nick a term from the mechanizing the play blogs, wall player, if you stuck him in a CAM/Striker role, with those attributes playing with his back to goal holding off defenders playing through balls to others making runs forward.

[robterrace]

He would make an amazing, to nick a term from the mechanizing the play blogs, wall player, if you stuck him in a CAM/Striker role, with those attributes playing with his back to goal holding off defenders playing through balls to others making runs forward.

I see what you mean, he offers a hell of a lot really..

[ModernLefty]

He's a great player, I'm experimenting with a similiar player myself, I think he's slowly becoming my first choice lone striker. He's not quite so good as Velaquez yet, but he's still only 21 so hopefully he's got time to get even better.

[tomtuck01]

Just thought I'd show you the progress of three players in my current save with Villarreal using the methods in this thread, (as Cleon already knows I do in my all my saves).

First we have a young defender called Pablo Íñiguez.

When I started the save he was in the Under 19's squad and rated very highly by my coaches, saying he good be a good La Liga defender in the future. (Bearing in mind the club starts in Liga Adelante, this was a huge thing to say!). Early on in the season I didn't play him much as he was only 18, and in all honesty I wanted to play more experienced defenders to get us off to a good start as we seeked promotion.

Here is what he looked like in October 2012;

As you can see he has some solid defensive attributes to begin with, but he needs a fair bit of work in other areas. (The glaringly obvious being his "Composure"). So how did I set about getting his attributes up? Well I decided, (rather obviously), that his "Composure" was what needed improving the most, so I set it has his individual traning focus to begin with. After three months I would swap it to something else, such as "Tackling" or whatever else, but would go back to it again after the next three months were up, meaning that in a twelve month period his individual focus would be on "Composure" for six of those months.

In that first season in Liga Adelante he ended up playing 23 games, which is just over half the games. Promotion followed, and in the first season back in La Liga he played in 37 league games. Now in October 2014, here is how he looks;

His "Composure" has doubled and alot of his other mentals have improved a fair bit aswell. The game time he has had has hugely impacted on his development, and seen him well and truly turn into my first choice CB.

He is still only 20 years old, so he has the room to improve further still.

---------------------------------

Next is a creative MC/AMC by the name of Moi Gómez.

He was only 17 at the start of the save, but already a member of the first team squad. The coaches again saw him as a player with a big future ahead of him, saying he could become a "Leading La Liga Attacking Midfielder". Again, this is great encouragement with the team only being in Liga Adelante at the time.

Here is how he looked in October 2012;

As you can see he has a terrific little base to build on. Unlike with Íñiguez, I didn't pick one attribute to continually look to improve, and just instead rotated certain attributes I felt he needed for playing the role I wanted him to in the future. (Advanced Playmaker-Support). So over the course of the last couple of seasons his individual focus has moved across a few things, focusing mainly on technical improvements.

Two years down the line, this is how he now looks;

His technicals have improved very nicely, with many of them going up by a couple of points. But the standout area for me is his mentals, and inparticular his "Determination" which has in two years jumped from eight points to seventeen! This will in part be down to some very succesful tutoring periods that have seen his personality change from "Balanced" to "Professional".

As you can see from the screenshot, he hasn't been terribly involved yet at the start of this season, and last term only played 12 times. However, I expect him to be heavily involved throughout the rest of the season, and hopefully the additional game time with help him improve even further. At only nineteen years of age, time is on his side.

The Spanish national team surely awaits for these two gems.

[robterrace]

I really like the look of Moi Gomez..

[Cleon]

Some great development there Tom and Rob.

He would make an amazing, to nick a term from the mechanizing the play blogs, wall player, if you stuck him in a CAM/Striker role, with those attributes playing with his back to goal holding off defenders playing through balls to others making runs forward.

Depends what level he is playing at. If he is a top club then the lack of agility will be an hinderance to do the above consistently as he can't turn his body fast enough or quick enough to hold defenders off. He'd be okay against poor ones but anyone half decent he'd struggle against.

Agility is so important for any player who is required to shift his body a lot, which anyone playing with the back to goal needs.

[ModernLefty]

Fair enough Cleon, however, is 14 that terrible in combination with the rest of his skills, surely the combination of 'anticipation' 'creativity' 'passing' etc... coupled with the 19 strength would diminish that issue, I mean unless you find a flawless regen/person a big man is unlikely to ever have more than 15 agility and you have to compromise somewhere with a player, I'd love mine all to be a bit better in something. Surely turning his body a small amount each time negates the need to have perfect agility, it is not like he has to slalom through players.

[Cleon]

Fair enough Cleon, however, is 14 that terrible in combination with the rest of his skills, surely the combination of 'anticipation' 'creativity' 'passing' etc... coupled with the 19 strength would diminish that issue, I mean unless you find a flawless regen/person a big man is unlikely to ever have more than 15 agility. Surely turning his body a small amount each time negates the need to have perfect agility, it is not like he has to slalom through players.

It's actually the other way around. Having those attributes and having low agility actually makes them capped some what, not the other way around. Lack of agility can be costly in what he does regardless of his other attributes. Someone playing with their back to goal probably twists, turns and does more movement that anyone else on the pitch due to defenders marking them tight, clattering them from behind etc. Someone with their back to goal plays backward passes, sideway passes and front way passes. That's a lot of movement and if he can't move properly it doesn't really matter if he has high attributes or not because he'll not be able to move quickly enough to do the types of passes you are wanting.

Plus all this is without even mentioning his really poor teamwork and bravery. Someone who's job it is to play others in would need a high amount of team work for it to work and he'd need bravery so he didn't bottle the chances.

Each to their own I guess, but I don't think he is suited to the role you mentioned whatsoever.

[ModernLefty]

Okay, now I appreciate what you mean. Cheers I'll take that on board for the future.

P.S. One final thought, was/is Drogba not very efficient with his plays back to goal PPM on FM then?

Seeing as it seems like he only has/had 14 agility at his peak.

[LEEMOD]

Hi Cleon,

I wonder if you may be able to help with my post a little further up? Thanks

[Cleon]

Cleon, this is a fantastic read, I am going to read through it again with a big mug of coffee and make some notes, I am implementing some ideas in my own Welling United save and it is already paying dividends with me being able to spend most of my budget on older players with key PPM's and decent staff but by balancing this by selling most of my highest earners. I now have a squad where we have 13-15 first team players with 6 or 7 kids ready knocking on the door, with tutoring and heavy individual training I have really felt the benefit of molding players into the role/duty I wish them to play.

One thing if I may, in terms of choosing which players to really focus on do you take note of scout reports? For example, a player with half a star potential is hardly worth the time if say you have one or two players in the same position with 3/4*.

Thanks

Lee

I look at them yeah to see what they are strong/poor at. But everyone at my club gets a chance regardless of potential for atleast a season to see how they develop etc.

[robterrace]

Right,

Another bit of development...

I'm not as far into this one as Velazquez..

Peter Boyd, my new BWM..

On signing, as a 15 year old

Just over a year later, only made 1 appearance for the first team so far, but has been on a lot of training for his role..

However, he's still been appearing for the first team since then, and now looks like this..

[LEEMOD]

I look at them yeah to see what they are strong/poor at. But everyone at my club gets a chance regardless of potential for atleast a season to see how they develop etc.

Thanks Cleon, it's a great way to play the game and something I have not delved into during past incarnations. Have you ever seen a youth player develop more fully who may only be 1* over a youth player with 5* potential? Once again, thanks a lot, made me look at things so much differently.

One more thing as well please, is there anyway that lists which PPM''s are ideal for each position/role/duty or just a general guide, with so many it's not easy to know which are most useful for each position. Obviously, some of them make sense but not others. I'd appreciate any help.

Cheers

[Cleon]

Thanks Cleon, it's a great way to play the game and something I have not delved into during past incarnations. Have you ever seen a youth player develop more fully who may only be 1* over a youth player with 5* potential? Once again, thanks a lot, made me look at things so much differently.

One more thing as well please, is there anyway that lists which PPM''s are ideal for each position/role/duty or just a general guide, with so many it's not easy to know which are most useful for each position. Obviously, some of them make sense but not others. I'd appreciate any help.

Cheers

PPM's vary depending on what you actually want the player to do. There isn't any guides or lists for ideal ones because that tends to vary person to person depending on what they want to do and the shape they use.

[LEEMOD]

Thanks and finally, another thought just springs to mind, at what age would you say a player is fully developed? 24/25? At that point, is it best to then stick them on their tactical role training as opposed to attribute specific would you say?

[tomtuck01]

Some great development there Tom and Rob.

Cheers Cle.

Got another young player at Villarreal who has come on leaps and bounds this season now that I've been able to give him regular game time. I wasn't able to before because he was a non-EU player and my quota was full. Now though he is a Spanish citizen and is performing really well.

He is even keeping Eugene Konoplyanka out the team at the minute!

[Cleon]

Cheers Cle.

Got another young player at Villarreal who has come on leaps and bounds this season now that I've been able to give him regular game time. I wasn't able to before because he was a non-EU player and my quota was full. Now though he is a Spanish citizen and is performing really well.

He is even keeping Eugene Konoplyanka out the team at the minute!

I take it that's a good thing? I don't know who Eugene is :o

[tomtuck01]

I take it that's a good thing? I don't know who Eugene is :o

An extremely good Ukrainian who starts at Dnipro.

[robterrace]

I may have a couple of years to mould this lad into something. Just spent £10m on him to replace one of my players that I sold for £45m..

He definitely needs work on his positioning.

[Cleon]

I may have a couple of years to mould this lad into something. Just spent £10m on him to replace one of my players that I sold for £45m..

He definitely needs work on his positioning.

He only needs positioning if you use him as a defensive player though.

Where do you plan on playing him?

[robterrace]

I'm looking at playing him out on the right wing (AMR), as an inside forward, so he'll get training in the role first, then I'll pick up some other attributes that may need sorting, such as Strength, Anticipation and First Touch.

[Ronald]

Can these be applied to FM 12?