Ajax Youth Development – When The Real World Meets Football Manager

[Cleon]

Ok I had it hard coded into my head about a player with low determination will never be any good. I have even released decent youths for having low det. there was a guide on here on the old forum version many years ago, which i have stuck to and has no proved me wrong, my falt for not updating myself along with the game. thanks for showing me the light.

Well if you look at the personality part of this thread I've done you'll see determination isn't needed if you give them one of the other positive personalities that doesn't require determination.

Releasing a player due to low determination is mental would you ever release anyone with low pace/acceleration/decisions/tackling and so on? No you wouldn't, determination is just like any other attribute so treat it the same imo.

You can always tutor them to make determination rise with someone who has a good determination attribute though.

[Cyderman]

Ok I had it hard coded into my head about a player with low determination will never be any good. I have even released decent youths for having low det. there was a guide on here on the old forum version many years ago, which i have stuck to and has no proved me wrong, my falt for not updating myself along with the game. thanks for showing me the light.

In response to your other thread, but posted here to keep the forum clean, natural fitness and aggression do not predict ability, but technique, anticipation and first touch do (ignoring position specific attributes like heading, marking and tackling for a DC). Ultimately you need to define your own template for different types of roles - you probably only need 6-7 (FB/WB, DC, DMC, MC, Winger/IF, ST) and then shape the players towards those roles. You also need to segment newgens by age - the older they start the game (it's country specific) the more developed they are - so a 15 year old with high stats is a bigger anomaly than an 18 year old.

You should avoid players will very low ratings in a key positional attribute - no amount of training will rectify it (if you have a DC with 15 for tackling but 5 for marking or concentration, congratulations you have found the new Titus Bramble - but don't play them in your first team). Very low ratings in general are hard to correct - you will only ever get them back to average. The very best prospects will stand out by having very high starting values in their key positional attributes. That's the place to start looking. There are very few newgens created with standout stats and little spare PA to grow into - it just doesn't happen as far as I have seen.

[Cleon]

In response to your other thread, but posted here to keep the forum clean, natural fitness and aggression do not predict ability, but technique, anticipation and first touch do (ignoring position specific attributes like heading, marking and tackling for a DC). Ultimately you need to define your own template for different types of roles - you probably only need 6-7 (FB/WB, DC, DMC, MC, Winger/IF, ST) and then shape the players towards those roles. You also need to segment newgens by age - the older they start the game (it's country specific) the more developed they are - so a 15 year old with high stats is a bigger anomaly than an 18 year old.

You should avoid players will very low ratings in a key positional attribute - no amount of training will rectify it (if you have a DC with 15 for tackling but 5 for marking or concentration, congratulations you have found the new Titus Bramble - but don't play them in your first team). Very low ratings in general are hard to correct - you will only ever get them back to average. The very best prospects will stand out by having very high starting values in their key positional attributes. That's the place to start looking. There are very few newgens created with standout stats and little spare PA to grow into - it just doesn't happen as far as I have seen.

I don't agree with that at all. I've had players with 7 positioning who are defenders and now in their 20's its around the 15 mark. Same with players for other positions. And I'm not talking about just a small minority of players either, I'm talking wide spread so its not as much as issue as you seem to think it is.

[Cyderman]

Maybe I was exaggerating to make the point, and I don't know how you approach squad sizes and match time for juniors, but i tend to keep a small squad to maximise game time and am therefore very selective. I wouldn't call 7 very low - but is probably lower than I would consider - particularly given the opportunity cost of rectifying that one attribute when I could be focusing training elsewhere. 7 might become 15, but 3 won't become 18 is my logic.

[TwinsFan86]

Very fine work Cleon!

Edit: Also, you've inspired me to fire up another Ajax save. I've always really liked the way they were run and wanted to try and replicate it in FM (although I've struggled with tactical consistency this year, so we'll see how it goes).

[Cleon]

Maybe I was exaggerating to make the point, and I don't know how you approach squad sizes and match time for juniors, but i tend to keep a small squad to maximise game time and am therefore very selective. I wouldn't call 7 very low - but is probably lower than I would consider - particularly given the opportunity cost of rectifying that one attribute when I could be focusing training elsewhere. 7 might become 15, but 3 won't become 18 is my logic.

You used 5 as the mark, I've even had players this low where I've made it rise for key attributes as I'll be highlighting further in the thread once I get around to that bit of it. But still you wouldn't expect someone with an attribute of 3 to make it 18 would you? That's just been silly and you changing the argument to suit. However it can be 13-15 depending on how you set about training it.

I still think you are wrong though and shouldn't be telling someone it cannot be done no matter what, when it clearly can. Which is what you originally said

People are to quick to dismiss certain players because they think the attributes can never be brought to a level that is acceptable, thats just not true at all.

[Cyderman]

You used 5 as the mark, I've even had players this low where I've made it rise for key attributes as I'll be highlighting further in the thread once I get around to that bit of it. But still you wouldn't expect someone with an attribute of 3 to make it 18 would you? That's just been silly and you changing the argument to suit. However it can be 13-15 depending on how you set about training it.

I still think you are wrong though and shouldn't be telling someone it cannot be done no matter what, when it clearly can. Which is what you originally said

People are to quick to dismiss certain players because they think the attributes can never be brought to a level that is acceptable, thats just not true at all.

Fair enough - I retract the point that it can't be done - and I look forward to your future posts on the matter. I only said 3 because you moved the goalposts to 7

[Cleon]

Fair enough - I retract the point that it can't be done - and I look forward to your future posts on the matter. I only said 3 because you moved the goalposts to 7

I don't mean to be an arse its just people exaggerate or sensationalise things and then people belive it as hard fact. I don't like that, I'd rather make people aware of what the truth is I do get the point you was making though

[Cyderman]

I don't mean to be an arse its just people exaggerate or sensationalise things and then people belive it as hard fact. I don't like that, I'd rather make people aware of what the truth is I do get the point you was making though

I'm the arse. This is a superb thread and I don't want to hijack it any further.

[Cleon]

Very fine work Cleon!

Edit: Also, you've inspired me to fire up another Ajax save. I've always really liked the way they were run and wanted to try and replicate it in FM (although I've struggled with tactical consistency this year, so we'll see how it goes).

It's been great fun so far, been a good side in the league makes it easier to field the youths in some of those games to give them experience. Although the squad in general is very young and under developed at the start to be fair. But the Champs League is hard work

[horseman_Plague]

It's been great fun so far, been a good side in the league makes it easier to field the youths in some of those games to give them experience. Although the squad in general is very young and under developed at the start to be fair. But the Champs League is hard work

Didnt you win the champions league three times in a row? Can't be that bad..

[TwinsFan86]

Didnt you win the champions league three times in a row? Can't be that bad..

In case you haven't noticed, Cleon's a genius.

[Cleon]

Didnt you win the champions league three times in a row? Can't be that bad..

So you've done the same then I take it

It is hard work, it's not an easy task, so I don't see your point.

[Siven]

Hmm, im wondering what leagues you have loaded to get those coaches to appear (if loaded leagues affect them) as i have 12 nations worth of leagues loaded and cannot find them at all, and i spend a lot of time searching for just the right coaches and scouts.

[Althaz]

Cheers NakS

I'm not sure if its just my game or a problem in general though, stamina hardly seems to rise unless you focus on it. Sure it does rise with age but still nowhere near enough and this is becoming a common problem throughout all my saves when focusing on player development. Even if you choose a specific role, hardly any of them for attackers focus on stamina. So at some stage I have to sacrifce something and focus on this issue with individual focus. I don't expect it to become amazing and very high far from it. But inline with the rest of the attributes stamina seems to be the one that develops the least unless you target it.

Have you or anyone else noticed the same? I've checked quite a few games and after 2 or 3 seasons the issue becomes more apparent.

I hadn't noticed it, but that you've pointed it out it definitely seems to be the case. I'm Liverpool in season 3 and despite an incredibly young squad (average age of less than 22-23, despite still including Gerrard for a few more games before he retires) stamina hasn't really increased on any of my players since the start of my save, except for those whom I set it as a specific focus (which was only a couple of players). Time to start training stamina I guess (what a boring thing to train).

[horseman_Plague]

So you've done the same then I take it

It is hard work, it's not an easy task, so I don't see your point.

I have not been unlucky indeed : ). Just stating that in my opinion the Ajax squad is not that bad.

How are van Rhijn, Eriksen, Fischer and Andersen developing for you?

[Siven]

Does PPM training take time away from stat training and is it worth training PPMs on youngsters if it does?

I have always waited till youngsters are around 20 before i train any PPMs i'd like them too have but recently been thinking is it better to do it earlier or not?

[Althaz]

Does PPM training take time away from stat training and is it worth training PPMs on youngsters if it does?

I have always waited till youngsters are around 20 before i train any PPMs i'd like them too have but recently been thinking is it better to do it earlier or not?

I think it's best to train them in any required PPM as they break into the first team. They'll need them after that but won't benefit form them before that (or not enough, IMO).

[Rashidi]

Brilliant post as always Cleon, I like this a lot, in fact I am actually more fascinated by training atm than tactics, simply because of the tight interplay now between ppms and tactics. What I am interested in finding out more on and I am not keen to start a thread simply cos of it, is about the intensity levels for training.

a. How much game time does a youth player get between the ages of 14-22 ( I assume most players 22 and higher are going into the first team). Whats your target for optimum development. Do you want to see him play as a sub in half the matches the first team plays in a season? And if you do decide to loan him out do you only let him go to a one league lower side for 3-6 months max or full season?

b. When it comes to training per se, for your team once they are part of the setup, you need to choose match training and general training. Since there is one training module and it affects all players, the role of individual focus training takes on more importance, and since it only affects a fixed percentage of total development training (20% If i am not mistaken). Do you depend heavily on ppms training and tutoring? And for this to kick in how do you fix the balance between general and match training over a season? I typically start at 40% match training at the start of the season and then the balance switches over to 40% general training at the midway mark of the season, but I think thats not ideal.

So I would like to hear your thoughts on this

[Cleon]

Hmm, im wondering what leagues you have loaded to get those coaches to appear (if loaded leagues affect them) as i have 12 nations worth of leagues loaded and cannot find them at all, and i spend a lot of time searching for just the right coaches and scouts.

England, Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

Thos are the leagues I've got running atm all way down to the bottom league for each country.

[Cleon]

I have not been unlucky indeed : ). Just stating that in my opinion the Ajax squad is not that bad.

How are van Rhijn, Eriksen, Fischer and Andersen developing for you?

Its not a bad squad but its not a great squad in terms of European football and is rather weak to begin with because the squad is under developed. You only have to compare it to all the bigger nations to see what I'm on about.

Those players have developed great, I'll put some screenshots up next time I log into the game. Fischer and Eriksen especially have made remarkable changes.

[Cleon]

Does PPM training take time away from stat training and is it worth training PPMs on youngsters if it does?

I have always waited till youngsters are around 20 before i train any PPMs i'd like them too have but recently been thinking is it better to do it earlier or not?

I like teaching my players PPM's because it adds another dimension to tactic building. As for when you should teach them to a player, well it depends on you really and what you think is best. Sometimes I like to focus just on pure player development rather than a PPM to begin with. But then other times I like the player to develop the PPM before moulding him to the player I want him to be.

There is no right or wrong answer tbh.

[Cleon]

Brilliant post as always Cleon, I like this a lot, in fact I am actually more fascinated by training atm than tactics, simply because of the tight interplay now between ppms and tactics. What I am interested in finding out more on and I am not keen to start a thread simply cos of it, is about the intensity levels for training.

a. How much game time does a youth player get between the ages of 14-22 ( I assume most players 22 and higher are going into the first team). Whats your target for optimum development. Do you want to see him play as a sub in half the matches the first team plays in a season? And if you do decide to loan him out do you only let him go to a one league lower side for 3-6 months max or full season?

b. When it comes to training per se, for your team once they are part of the setup, you need to choose match training and general training. Since there is one training module and it affects all players, the role of individual focus training takes on more importance, and since it only affects a fixed percentage of total development training (20% If i am not mistaken). Do you depend heavily on ppms training and tutoring? And for this to kick in how do you fix the balance between general and match training over a season? I typically start at 40% match training at the start of the season and then the balance switches over to 40% general training at the midway mark of the season, but I think thats not ideal.

So I would like to hear your thoughts on this

A) Believe it or not currently at the end of season 5 and my average squad age is 19 years old. So apparently without really knowing it I like to play them as soon as I think they are developed or need the experience. I don't really have a set optimum for development I guess I just take it player by player in all honesty. After a while you kind of know when a player is ready for more first team action. The coaches normally give good feedback about how play time will help them develop, so the more times I get a news item telling me someone is ready for more fisrt team action then I know they need some kind of game time. I currently get messages like this every week about around 6 players atm who are all in my under 18's.

I've got some players who might have played 3 or 4 games at the age of 16 when I felt the result didn't matter or because I was forced to by injuries/suspension. But then the following season they might not have been involved at all. Some players might end up with a lot more games though depending on how they've been developing throughout the season. My aim is to bring 3 youngsters through to the first team every 2 seasons. So if I feel someone is making big strides then I'll tend to look at playing them a bit more than anyone else, this will include cup games, league games and sub apperances. But at the same time I still let them play youth football and reserve team football.

B) PPM's and tutoring are probably the most important 2 factors for me because these are what shape the player. I think I saw you mention yesterday that you like to create sets of PPM's for players to help with your tactic, I'm the exact same and do the same thing.

As for the balance between match training and general this is how I set up and my thoughts on it;

As I focus on pure player development for me match training isn't important. So for me its set on 10% throughout the season once tactic familiarity levels are all fluid. Now due to me trying to develop the player best I can everyone at the club is either learning a specific attribute or a specific role. This means that the general training is set to a low intensity alowing me to focus just on development with an heavy individual focus. If I wanted a more generic player instead of a specific bunch of players then I'd set general training to a high intensity and no individual training. This would mean development is spread evenly across all aspects rather than you shaping them into specific players.

So in short if you use specific attribute or role training then the intensity should be low to allow individual heavy focus on those workloads. For none specific role or attribute training you'd have a higher general training intensity.

I hope that answers the questions for you

[Rashidi]

Cheers thanks for the response

[nick1408]

G'day Cleon. Another thread I probably won't get the jist of straight away but anyway...

I notice you focus on individual training of young players. When I have youth players I have ended to pick a role from their starting attributes and set them to that particular training - for example, a 16yo with marking, tackling, heading..... would get central defender training. I have tended to set and forget for their careers. While even I think it is obvious why the benefit of individual training is better can you please explain why you don't set and forget training (a lot of poor wording here but I think you will understand what I am trying to ask)?

A second question; do you send players out on loan and when? I have Mateusz Taudul at Everton who the coaches think will become a "Good Premier League keeper in the future". At 19 I have sent him to Leeds to be a first team regular. Would you do something similar or would you keep him at your club to gain experience in the reserve league? If I was at a Spanish or German club I would keep them as I feel their reserve setup is better (they play in the lower divisions of their respective leagues as opposed to separate youth/reserve leagues) but the Premier League is a different beast.

A third; Do players in your clubs tend to progress up the youth chain (under age, reserve team, first team) as they grow out of the age groups or as they look good enough to play at the next level. In England I set my under age players as available for the reserve league to get more games against mature bodies and leave them in the under 18's so they can get as many games as possible into them.

A fourth; 3:30am (I think you are in the UK since you are a Sheffield United fan) seems a bit early for FM - not developing an addiction (of feeding one) are you??? If you are then don't give up as the guides are fantastic!

[Cleon]

I notice you focus on individual training of young players. When I have youth players I have ended to pick a role from their starting attributes and set them to that particular training - for example, a 16yo with marking, tackling, heading..... would get central defender training. I have tended to set and forget for their careers. While even I think it is obvious why the benefit of individual training is better can you please explain why you don't set and forget training (a lot of poor wording here but I think you will understand what I am trying to ask)?

I like a player to be good in all his main attributes and some require a lot more work than others. So by working on a specific attribute I can raise it a lot faster than by training a role. I don't tend to train roles until a player is 21-24 normally.

I don't forget what I've set training to be because you can create notes inside the game and set them to remind you. So for example when I mentioned the 3 month rotation of attributes. I create a note for that player then set it to remind me exactly in 3 months time. That way even if you forget, you get a reminder

A second question; do you send players out on loan and when? I have Mateusz Taudul at Everton who the coaches think will become a "Good Premier League keeper in the future". At 19 I have sent him to Leeds to be a first team regular. Would you do something similar or would you keep him at your club to gain experience in the reserve league? If I was at a Spanish or German club I would keep them as I feel their reserve setup is better (they play in the lower divisions of their respective leagues as opposed to separate youth/reserve leagues) but the Premier League is a different beast.

I did cover this in my opening posts. I keep players with me until they become home-grown, only then would I even consider loaning a player out. But saying that it is very rare I loan a player out because while he is out onloan it means I can't mould him and develop him to be the player I need him to be. It means I can't teach him any PPM's or have him tutored. I tend to keep players and give them first team game time myself.

If you feel you can't offer these youths game time then imo you have a squad what is too big.

A third; Do players in your clubs tend to progress up the youth chain (under age, reserve team, first team) as they grow out of the age groups or as they look good enough to play at the next level. In England I set my under age players as available for the reserve league to get more games against mature bodies and leave them in the under 18's so they can get as many games as possible into them

I don't look at it that way. I have a squad, not seperate teams. But I'm the same as you, I don't have a reserve team at all. My youths play all games u19's and reserve team fixtures.

A fourth; 3:30am (I think you are in the UK since you are a Sheffield United fan) seems a bit early for FM - not developing an addiction (of feeding one) are you??? If you are then don't give up as the guides are fantastic!

hehe no

I have sleep problems and survive on less than an hour and half's sleep every night. I'm not actually on FM though, I just have the forums up in the background all day long on laptop, Ipad or on my phone

[Cleon]

Cheers thanks for the response

No worries mate

You starting to get quite a few young players in now you're in the top division? I guess youth are the long term plan in sustaining yourself as a Prem side? Much cheaper too as I suspect you have a tiny budget?

[interesti88]

Awesome thread

Previous FMs I just bought youngsters and load up on the youth squad and buy already developed players for the 1st team, after a few seasons my squad would be bloated with under-developed players and waste players. So this FM I thought I would go ahead and try to develop my own players that come through the youth intake. My greatest achievement so far was developing Fabian Castillo of FC Dallas in to a bang up player, it gave me great joy to see him turn into a solid MLS player.

As I love Ajax's youth development policy and your AWESOME threads and posts I'm definitely going to follow this thread throughout its entirety, can't wait for further updates.

Just one question before I go, in regards to introducing young players into the 1st team, when is it too soon to bring young players in to play competitive games if your a mid-table club and when is it too late?

BTW did I mention how great this thread is:D

[Cleon]

Awesome thread

Previous FMs I just bought youngsters and load up on the youth squad and buy already developed players for the 1st team, after a few seasons my squad would be bloated with under-developed players and waste players. So this FM I thought I would go ahead and try to develop my own players that come through the youth intake. My greatest achievement so far was developing Fabian Castillo of FC Dallas in to a bang up player, it gave me great joy to see him turn into a solid MLS player.

As I love Ajax's youth development policy and your AWESOME threads and posts I'm definitely going to follow this thread throughout its entirety, can't wait for further updates.

Just one question before I go, in regards to introducing young players into the 1st team, when is it too soon to bring young players in to play competitive games if your a mid-table club and when is it too late?

BTW did I mention how great this thread is:D

Cheers

There is no wrong or right time to bring players into the squad in all honesty. Just have them on the bench and bring them on with 20 minutes left in a game and your are comfortable and winning. In other words, just apply and use common sense in most cases unless you are forced to use them due to injuries/suspension or even a small squad.

[AlienIR]

It seems I found something to read...

It looks great, as usual.

I share your point of view to keep role training as late as possible...IMO, it's better to keep for older players, more than 25, as physical attributes can raise with a peek in the early ages.

From 21 to 25, it's time to develop technical attributes, I mean the one with lackness. If not, then I chose to focus on PPM as the link with the tactic is real.

I see the role training, to make a player more suitable to your tactic when is main development is over (from 26). But it's just my point of view.

I didn't read yet, but I'm sure I'll find a lot of useful informations. Thanks in advance

[Madminister]

B) PPM's and tutoring are probably the most important 2 factors for me because these are what shape the player. I think I saw you mention yesterday that you like to create sets of PPM's for players to help with your tactic, I'm the exact same and do the same thing.

This is interesting. What kind of sets do you look for in particular. No, wait, here are some set ideas, would these be the kinds you might look for or am I getting it all wrong?

Ball-Playing Defender

Gets forward whenever possible.

Tries to play way out of trouble.

Does not dive into tackles.

Limited Defender

Marks opponent tightly

Stays back at all times

Dives into tackles (is this one ever a good choice?)

Fullback (Automatic)

Hugs line

Likes to switch ball to other flank

Possesses long flat throw

Wingback (Attacking)

Runs with ball down left/Runs with ball down right

Gets into opposition area

Gets forward whenever possible

Curls ball

Arrives late in opponents area

Anchor Man

Plays short simple passes

Marks opponent tightly

Stays back at all times

Deep Lying Playmaker

Comes deep to get ball

Dictates tempo

Looks for pass rather than attempting to score

Tries to play way out of trouble

Tries long range passes

Ball Winning Midfielder

Marks opponent tightly

Dives into tackles

Winger

Runs with ball down right/Runs with ball down left

Curls ball

Knocks ball past opponent

Hugs line

Runs with ball rarely

Inside Forward

Gets into opposition area

Moves into channels

Places shots

Cuts inside

Runs with ball often

Deep Lying Forward

Shoots with power

Plays with back to goal

Free Kick Taker

Curls ball

Tries long range free kicks

Throw-In Taker

Possesses long flat throw

Could these be examples of what to look for? Or am I way off?

[Cleon]

It seems I found something to read...

It looks great, as usual.

I share your point of view to keep role training as late as possible...IMO, it's better to keep for older players, more than 25, as physical attributes can raise with a peek in the early ages.

From 21 to 25, it's time to develop technical attributes, I mean the one with lackness. If not, then I chose to focus on PPM as the link with the tactic is real.

I see the role training, to make a player more suitable to your tactic when is main development is over (from 26). But it's just my point of view.

I didn't read yet, but I'm sure I'll find a lot of useful informations. Thanks in advance

Thanks

[Cleon]

This is interesting. What kind of sets do you look for in particular. No, wait, here are some set ideas, would these be the kinds you might look for or am I getting it all wrong?

Ball-Playing Defender

Gets forward whenever possible.

Tries to play way out of trouble.

Does not dive into tackles.

Limited Defender

Marks opponent tightly

Stays back at all times

Dives into tackles (is this one ever a good choice?)

Fullback (Automatic)

Hugs line

Likes to switch ball to other flank

Possesses long flat throw

Wingback (Attacking)

Runs with ball down left/Runs with ball down right

Gets into opposition area

Gets forward whenever possible

Curls ball

Arrives late in opponents area

Anchor Man

Plays short simple passes

Marks opponent tightly

Stays back at all times

Deep Lying Playmaker

Comes deep to get ball

Dictates tempo

Looks for pass rather than attempting to score

Tries to play way out of trouble

Tries long range passes

Ball Winning Midfielder

Marks opponent tightly

Dives into tackles

Winger

Runs with ball down right/Runs with ball down left

Curls ball

Knocks ball past opponent

Hugs line

Runs with ball rarely

Inside Forward

Gets into opposition area

Moves into channels

Places shots

Cuts inside

Runs with ball often

Deep Lying Forward

Shoots with power

Plays with back to goal

Free Kick Taker

Curls ball

Tries long range free kicks

Throw-In Taker

Possesses long flat throw

Could these be examples of what to look for? Or am I way off?

I'm not keen on a lot of those in all honesty. Why would you want winger who runs with the ball rarely? Makes no sense to me. I could think the same about a few others too, especially the ball playing defender. While you want someone who is good on the ball, you don't exactly want someone who can cost you points and games do you? Tries to play way out of trouble is never a good idea for defenders imo as any mistakes they make are more costly than say a forward or midfielder. I'm not sure you'd want him to get forward often either unless you use a Libero because you'd leave a big gap and he'd get caught out of position.

To put it another way, personally speaking I'd not use any of those sets you've posted

What decided the set of PPM's for me is the tactic and what I'm wanting from it. That is the most important things to remember when creating sets. Think of the role the player will be playing and what he'll actually be doing in a game. Then base PPM's around this.

[Madminister]

Heh, meant often with the winger. Copy/paste error

As fro the Ball playing defender I was looking at Agger who's a player I quite like.

What decided the set of PPM's for me is the tactic and what I'm wanting from it. That is the most important things to remember when creating sets. Think of the role the player will be playing and what he'll actually be doing in a game. Then base PPM's around this.

So, your point is, if I understand what you're saying is that it depends on your tactic and what you want from your player. I should probably have stated that I didn't necessarily see those as good sets. Just best guesses based on my tactical knowledge

[Adamski152]

Have you determined from the outset exactly what role a player will play in your squad?

For example, if you play with a Ball Playing Defender, do you have a back up in the first team and another in the youth team who you have earmarked for this role? Or at the U19's stage are you simply improving his generic defender attributes then choosing his role at a later date?

[Cleon]

Heh, meant often with the winger. Copy/paste error

As fro the Ball playing defender I was looking at Agger who's a player I quite like.

So, your point is, if I understand what you're saying is that it depends on your tactic and what you want from your player. I should probably have stated that I didn't necessarily see those as good sets. Just best guesses based on my tactical knowledge

Taking into account how you set up a player in a tactic and taking into considertion his PPM's are one of the most important things on the game. I see a lot of posts on here that say someone is trying to play a particular way yet can't understand why it doesn't work as they think it should. Yet when I look in my own save at the group of players they have, they've failed to consider the PPM's.

[Madminister]

Thank you for the reply Cleon. Very helpful.

I have always more or less ignored PPMs, but it seems I'll need to change my ways. That's probably not a bad thing. Looking forward to more on your Ajax save. It's always both entertaining and educational to read your stuff (and a lot of what others write as well).

[Cleon]

Have you determined from the outset exactly what role a player will play in your squad?

For example, if you play with a Ball Playing Defender, do you have a back up in the first team and another in the youth team who you have earmarked for this role? Or at the U19's stage are you simply improving his generic defender attributes then choosing his role at a later date?

No I know instantly what role someone will play for me and then we begin working on the attributes needed

My players fit the tactic rather than the tactic fits the players.

[Adamski152]

No I know instantly what role someone will play for me and then we begin working on the attributes needed

My players fit the tactic rather than the tactic fits the players.

I suspected as much, thanks.

[RTHerringbone]

How do you find the positional mix of newgens?

I'm getting a lot of FBs, DMs and AML/ST hybrids, but few CDs and even fewer AMCs or outright STs with the sort of PA I'm after.

On another note, are you any good at exercising a bit of self control and not selling players to make way for a promising youngster?

I feel a bit stuck in a vicious circle where I'll end up flogging good but fully developed (3 star CA and PA) players of 25 years of age or older, just to make way for way for 17-18 year old youngsters with 1.5 star CA but 4.5 PA.

[Cleon]

How do you find the positional mix of newgens?

I'm getting a lot of FBs, DMs and AML/ST hybrids, but few CDs and even fewer AMCs or outright STs with the sort of PA I'm after.

On another note, are you any good at exercising a bit of self control and not selling players to make way for a promising youngster?

I feel a bit stuck in a vicious circle where I'll end up flogging good but fully developed (3 star CA and PA) players of 25 years of age or older, just to make way for way for 17-18 year old youngsters with 1.5 star CA but 4.5 PA.

The types of newgens you get is influenced by head of development and the rest of the back room staff. Have you got like-minded staff?

Well I'm still in a transitional period (or atleast I was until last season) so it was slightly easier for me as it allowed me to sell quite a few of the first team when a big offer came in for them as I had plenty of cover coming through in the ranks. Even though I don't need the money I always think if a big offer comes in I'll sell a player because I've always got 2 or 3 others who can fill the role and will develop with first team exposure.

[Fabian Jonsson]

Taking into account how you set up a player in a tactic and taking into considertion his PPM's are one of the most important things on the game. I see a lot of posts on here that say someone is trying to play a particular way yet can't understand why it doesn't work as they think it should. Yet when I look in my own save at the group of players they have, they've failed to consider the PPM's.

Although I agree in theory, in reality it can be a little bit risky to look too much on ppms in certain situations. In my current game, 3 seasons in at IFK Göteborg is Sweden, I have an absolute beast of a striker. He's 19 years old and has already (if I remember correctly) 15 finishing, 15 composure, 16 anticipation, 15 off the ball, as well as acceleration, agility, jumping, pace and strength all between 11-15. For a player in the Swedish premier division that's insane, irrespective of age. He's got the ppm "plays with back to goal" which I wanted him to unlearn straight away. I wanted him to get on the recieving end of throughballs, not have his back to the goal. In reality though, he's scored 25/27 (mostly from throughballs) and the ppm seems to be part of the reason why he's also provided the team with a decent amount of assists (by holding up the ball and slotting it in for the other striker). In short: the ppm doesn't seem to be a problem at all. I wouldn't have guessed that from seeing his attributes and then his ppm.

[RTHerringbone]

The types of newgens you get is influenced by head of development and the rest of the back room staff. Have you got like-minded staff?.

A simple question, and I don't know the answer! Will have a look when I go home.

Does my imbalanced mix suggest I have a load of staff who just like wide play?

[Cleon]

A simple question, and I don't know the answer! Will have a look when I go home.

Does my imbalanced mix suggest I have a load of staff who just like wide play?

Yeah. Id hazard a guess at staff who are attack minded and like 451's and 442's.

[RTHerringbone]

Yeah. Id hazard a guess at staff who are attack minded and like 451's and 442's.

The annoying thing is that I play a 4-5-1 (the one strangely labelled 4-1-2-2-1) and for me, the DMC and MC roles in my tactic are critical in offsetting the attacking play of my wide men. I could really do with more in-house options to elevate to the first team in these positions.

Seems strange that staff favouring either formation would appear to focus on wide players - the 4-4-2 comprises of 40% outfield players in the CD and MC positions.

Another note is that my backroom staff are appointed solely on the basis of their attributes rather than tactical preferences.

I wonder if I have been missing a trick for all these years? Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, but logically I think I'd always appoint an excellent attribute laden staff member with opposite tactical views to me, rather than a "good" staff member with the same views.

[keef]

This is great, but that's to be expected for a Cleon thread

Minutes before reading this thread I started a new game With Genk of Belgium, with the aim of doing something very similar to what you are doing. Staff needed changing, but the squad seems to be amazing for the level, and all very young too. One habit I'll have to break though is getting emotionally attached to the players. I'm sure it will be many years before I have a reputation big enough to fight off the big clubs, so a factory system might have to be the go for a couple of seasons.

I will be following this with great interest! Great stuff!

[Fabian Jonsson]

Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post

Cheers NakS

I'm not sure if its just my game or a problem in general though, stamina hardly seems to rise unless you focus on it. Sure it does rise with age but still nowhere near enough and this is becoming a common problem throughout all my saves when focusing on player development. Even if you choose a specific role, hardly any of them for attackers focus on stamina. So at some stage I have to sacrifce something and focus on this issue with individual focus. I don't expect it to become amazing and very high far from it. But inline with the rest of the attributes stamina seems to be the one that develops the least unless you target it.

Have you or anyone else noticed the same? I've checked quite a few games and after 2 or 3 seasons the issue becomes more apparent.

I hadn't noticed it, but that you've pointed it out it definitely seems to be the case. I'm Liverpool in season 3 and despite an incredibly young squad (average age of less than 22-23, despite still including Gerrard for a few more games before he retires) stamina hasn't really increased on any of my players since the start of my save, except for those whom I set it as a specific focus (which was only a couple of players). Time to start training stamina I guess (what a boring thing to train).

I've been desperately trying to get one of my centrebacks to get better at jumping (he's at 11). Got him at a young age and have had his focus on that for most of his time at the club, after two seasons, he's still on the same level as he was when he first arrived.

Is it just me/him, or is jumping another of the attributes that are difficult to increase?

Edit: in case you're wondering; he's average height, so that shouldn't be a problem.

[Dgirth]

Jumping falls under the fitness training, i find it better to have two fitness coach's if the club allow it. you might need to set the player on a fitness training program and make show your got a good coach.

[peleJunior]

Quality thread, has inspired me to create an Ajax '95 tactic and implement the training culture along with what you do. Testing it out with Liverpool, the board there wants youth to be given a chance so it's a nice fit.

[Fabian Jonsson]

No I know instantly what role someone will play for me and then we begin working on the attributes needed

My players fit the tactic rather than the tactic fits the players.

Soo, what does that mean exactly? If you get your hands on a player that's is exceptionally talented, but doesn't really fit any of the roles in your current tactic exactly, does that mean that you'll "shoehorn" him into the "closest role", or do you not bother with him at all? Or do you adapt your tactic?

Wouldn't it be better to turn a player into the best that he can be, and then try to adapt the tactic (using the smallest changes possible) to fit the players that you actually have at your disposal?

The reason I ask is because I just recently acquired an exceptionally bright talent, but he really doesn't fit the bill when it comes to my tactics. He's much more of a Ibrahimovic-like technically gifted, yet big and strong guy, whereas I use two quick and mobile attackers at present. Still, I imagine that I can find a good way of fitting him into the starting line-up when the time comes... wouldn't you?