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flauta kicma

IDENTITY - main problem of the new FM generation

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You know what is the main problem with this game? It is missing fundament, some comfort zone on which SI can build further.

CM series had it, and it was enjoying with that ME, many transfers, you could play for 50 years 01/02 edition. Fun part of the game (not arcade!) was the fundament there.

2D generations had it (FM 2008 best game to date imo), it was game based on tactics, you could be the best in the first season with good tactic, you could be shameful with best team if tactic was lame. It was based on your abillity, and only on your abillity, micro managament, media, etc, was there only sporadic, only for little amusement, the main thing was tactic engine, and it had its fundament, they had starting zone.

3D generations? It seems that everything is in not on the right places, fundament is missing, that is the reason that every patch is so different.

Evidentely, through the years SI wanted to avoid dependence to tactics (because, many unexperienced players would drag from game = less money, and they wanted to avoid diablo tactics).

Now it is so random, every team you choose, every tactic you choose - you will struggle first season, and till 3rd season you'll got world class team (and then all the fun goes), and so little is based on tactics, with some tactical adjustments you can adapt it any style particularly. Now, main focus is on micro managament, interactions with players, media...

It is so hillarious to read tactic sharing center, people are offering there tactics like it would work in different conditions, but truth is - every tactic works after some time!

And I salute this move, in some way it is good that diablo tactics are broken, but DO IT only if you can keep free flowing game like before, DON' DO IT if it is path to 'always the same', you made the pattern with this approach, every save game is very similiar, before you could get fired in the first season or won CL in first season. And now player dont see the tree (tactic) because of the wood (micromanagament interactions)

Make it by not ruining the playness and the fact is - this was funnier game before, so why you wanted to change whole fundament?

(this change is only top of the problem, there is so many other things - slower game because of the steam, unambitious AI, transfers ruined...)

Like they want to develop perfect ME at the expense of playness, this paridigm is the reason why I dont play any other sports games.

Search for physic realism, for perfect graphics is celebration of human knowledge and progress, it is enjoyment to watch Melo's crossover in 2K series, but it ruins the games because, for the god sake, they are PC games, they never can be real life, and in the process, playness is broken (PES was better game before 5 years, etc.).

And it seems like SI is making same mistake, they are stripsearching themselves and they want to develop perfect players move, perfect ME, but in the bigger picture, it is only cosmetics - FM should be about something else. I know this whole world is based on cosmetics, you can attract those gangnam style fans to play game only by putting effort to cosmetics of the game, but what is with us, old scool players?

It is more important to have many transfers, smart AI, etc. than to have free kick taken with realism and attraction, and it is like SI dont have time for this because of the search for perfect realism ( and that never can be done).

This search for different paradigm breaks identity and consitence, search for simplicity turn away old school players for gangnam players :), now they dont have starting focal point where they can build it up, and, imo, lack of identity (no more tactics as fundament) is particular reason why this game so vary from patch to patch.

Sorry, if I overly criticize you, you guys are really the best. I admire your effort in interaction with fans, your effort to make this game better, but I just wanted to say my opinion...

And, I want you, and all mates on this forum, Merry Christmass!

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Always played commentary only - always will

Not interested in the arcade side of things so don't actually notice the flaws in the match engine that other people see - I remember the old phrase "ignorance is bliss" which seems to fit so well :D

For me a football management game is about the management - transfers, tactics etc :)

What probably put me off was the old Kevin Toms game where you know exactly what was going to happen when you saw the players starting positions on the goal highlight :D

I know that side of things had improved immensely but still not interested :)

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You know what is the main problem with this game? It is missing fundament, some comfort zone on which SI can build further.

CM series had it, and it was enjoying with that ME, many transfers, you could play for 50 years 01/02 edition. Fun part of the game (not arcade!) was the fundament there.

2D generations had it (FM 2008 best game to date imo), it was game based on tactics, you could be the best in the first season with good tactic, you could be shameful with best team if tactic was lame. It was based on your abillity, and only on your abillity, micro managament, media, etc, was there only sporadic, only for little amusement, the main thing was tactic engine, and it had its fundament, they had starting zone.

3D generations? It seems that everything is in not on the right places, fundament is missing, that is the reason that every patch is so different.

Evidentely, through the years SI wanted to avoid dependence to tactics (because, many unexperienced players would drag from game = less money, and they wanted to avoid diablo tactics).

Now it is so random, every team you choose, every tactic you choose - you will struggle first season, and till 3rd season you'll got world class team (and then all the fun goes), and so little is based on tactics, with some tactical adjustments you can adapt it any style particularly. Now, main focus is on micro managament, interactions with players, media...

It is so hillarious to read tactic sharing center, people are offering there tactics like it would work in different conditions, but truth is - every tactic works after some time!

And I salute this move, in some way it is good that diablo tactics are broken, but DO IT only if you can keep free flowing game like before, DON' DO IT if it is path to 'always the same', you made the pattern with this approach, every save game is very similiar, before you could get fired in the first season or won CL in first season. And now player dont see the tree (tactic) because of the wood (micromanagament interactions)

Make it by not ruining the playness and the fact is - this was funnier game before, so why you wanted to change whole fundament?

(this change is only top of the problem, there is so many other things - slower game because of the steam, unambitious AI, transfers ruined...)

Like they want to develop perfect ME at the expense of playness, this paridigm is the reason why I dont play any other sports games.

Search for physic realism, for perfect graphics is celebration of human knowledge and progress, it is enjoyment to watch Melo's crossover in 2K series, but it ruins the games because, for the god sake, they are PC games, they never can be real life, and in the process, playness is broken (PES was better game before 5 years, etc.).

And it seems like SI is making same mistake, they are stripsearching themselves and they want to develop perfect players move, perfect ME, but in the bigger picture, it is only cosmetics - FM should be about something else. I know this whole world is based on cosmetics, you can attract those gangnam style fans to play game only by putting effort to cosmetics of the game, but what is with us, old scool players?

It is more important to have many transfers, smart AI, etc. than to have free kick taken with realism and attraction, and it is like SI dont have time for this because of the search for perfect realism ( and that never can be done).

This search for different paradigm breaks identity and consitence, search for simplicity turn away old school players for gangnam players :), now they dont have starting focal point where they can build it up, and, imo, lack of identity (no more tactics as fundament) is particular reason why this game so vary from patch to patch.

Sorry, if I overly criticize you, you guys are really the best. I admire your effort in interaction with fans, your effort to make this game better, but I just wanted to say my opinion...

And, I want you, and all mates on this forum, Merry Christmass!

You do realize that this is all because because 3d makes the errors much more easier to spot?

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I wrote about that a thousand times on this forum. I even suggested SI to abandon 3d match engine and focus on making the game more realistic. To be honest, most of the players don't give a flying f*** about 3d and use classic 2d or text mode, because they know it's not essential for this tipe of game. Now FM goes the other way. Training is less complex than ever; tactics and set pieces are so limited and predictable; the whole concept of scouting is completely missunderstood; still can't improve training facilities x levels up at one time despite the money you can spend on it. on the other hand we hear about massive improbevents in graphics and 3d phisics have been made every year etc. SI should answer one simple question. Is this game a football manager simulation game or just some other type of game? If it is, it should ressemble other simulators, for ex. airplain simulator etc. If its not, SI should announce that, so we won't be deceived by thinking it is.

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imho the main problem with this years version and other years is that ai teams dont improve thier players making it easy to become the biggest team in the world in a few years once all the best players have retired.

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You do realize that this is all because because 3d makes the errors much more easier to spot?

Yes indeed, but it is not that simple. It is transfers, AI, tactics, 3D is just not perfect and it shows flaws but I'm okay with it.

But we can agree that all problem comes from 3D, so - main question is, why SI abandoned idea from before (and it was making everyone happy) and try to implement 3d, and persistently putting all efforts in it? It just could not be perfect, ever, but it can be semi glamour for all new customers raised on Fifa and things like Fifa. But it is not a same game that raised me from '98. :(

Things are paradoxaly sad, they are trying to make it real and they are making it arcade patch from patch, then they release final patch, and it is relatively okay, but it is far from the game with head and tail, because decisions they make in patches are so random. There is no order, no fundament, one year full back are ineffective, other year too effective, etc.

Game need to have focal point, with this approach it will never be good like before.

You have realism and arcade as two opposite.

For me, ME ( 3D) can be arcade, it can be here only for fun purpose (like LMA before 15 years :)), but core of the game needs to be real, needs to be simulation. But, they are making ARCADE from inside (transfers, game system, interactions), and are trying 3D to be real (and making it arcade, apart from 2011 edtion), and they put all efforts to make 3D real, but in the end, 3D doesnt even matter.

This, together with change of tactics paradigm is killing this game. But hey, we are only old school fans, probably they are earning now more than before.

tts0 - spot on.

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Sorry, but how exactly does being 3D make it become more arcadey? Especially when the current match engine is more advanced, and certainly more realistic than older iterations? The match engine is the same whether it's in 2d or 3d.

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It's not the 3d itself that makes this game more arcade, but the SI's aproach to it. It seems like they put the all effort into graphics and 3d phisics every year, but forget about the core of the game, the ME itself. It's kind of paradox, because I feel like the 3d should be blamed for SI's aproach to it, cuz there is no other way to implement 3d in the game like making it looks better every year. What other you can do with it?

Of course it should be in the game, but still not now; it's too soon. They should abandon it for a while and make the core of the game perfect, then implement 3d when nothing else to do.

Apparently it is a simulation game, so it should simulate properly all important things from football manager's life like training, tactics, transfers, scouting, not 3d view or other crap like that.

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It's not the 3d itself that makes this game more arcade, but the SI's aproach to it. It seems like they put the all effort into graphics and 3d phisics every year, but forget about the core of the game, the ME itself. It's kind of paradox, because I feel like the 3d should be blamed for SI's aproach to it, cuz there is no other way to implement 3d in the game like making it looks better every year. What other you can do with it?

Of course it should be in the game, but still not now; it's too soon. They should abandon it for a while and make the core of the game perfect, then implement 3d when nothing else to do.

Apparently it is a simulation game, so it should simulate properly all important things from football manager's life like training, tactics, transfers, scouting, not 3d view or other crap like that.

But the 3D doesnt take away from any of the other things, because each will have different people working on them. You know they have a team that specifically works on the ME only, led by PaulC. As for forgetting about the ME, not sure the major development cycles and the constant updates we've had supports that. If they didnt care about the ME we would still be playing the FM12 one. The physics are not superficial either, they are pretty key to actually getting the match engine work. Just because someone might watch it in commentary only, doesn't make collision avoidance any less vital, or the Magnus effect any less vital to crosses, free kicks, dipping shots, curving passes etc. And at the end of the day, a manager doesnt watch his game from a top down view anyway. Not sure hows its too soon either.

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But the 3D doesnt take away from any of the other things, because each will have different people working on them. You know they have a team that specifically works on the ME only.

It's a little bit tricky, you know? For ex., if you have a 100 people working on the project, and 30 of them working specificly on 3d, it means that you have olny 70 people for other purpouses. Abandon the 3d and suddenly you have 100 people available for other things. I know that "the more, the better" thing doesn't work every time, but it's seems perfectly fit for the game developing purpouses. Can you realise how many ideas they could implement every year if they had whole "3d team" available for other things?

and by saying it's "too soon", I mean that 3d wasn't implemented at the right time. There was still plenty other things to do, but SI decided to "take up a 3d challenge" and they stuck with it, so the game is developing slower than it would without 3d. "Non - 3d Football Manager" would be light years away from current version.

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It's a little bit tricky, you know? For ex., if you have a 100 people working on the project, and 30 of them working specificly on 3d, it means that you have olny 70 people for other purpouses. Abandon the 3d and suddenly you have 100 people available for other things. I know that "the more, the better" thing doesn't work every time, but it's seems perfectly fit for the game developing purpouses. Can you realise how many ideas they could implement every year if they had whole "3d team" available for other things?

and by saying it's "too soon", I mean that 3d wasn't implemented at the right time. There was still plenty other things to do, but SI decided to "take up a 3d challenge" and they stuck with it, so the game is developing slower than it would without 3d. "Non - 3d Football Manager" would be light years away from current version.

The pace would largely be the same, since you can only have so many people doing one thing at once. For example I know that PaulC likes to keep the ME team relatively small, so you could free up people working 3d, they still wouldnt work on the match engine. It wouldln't make much difference when 3d was implemented. There are always things to do regardless. How and why would non 3d be any further ahead?

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Yeah and those guys have no qualification for doing anything else, or are severely inexperienced, a 3D ME programmer isn't suddenly going to become a specialist at coding transfers or an artist.

People seem to think stuff like this is insanely easy. Thank god you wont ever touch game programming with a five foot pole.

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Simply, because "3d team" could develop something else. You said it wouldn't be ME. Ok, there is so much other things to develop; scouting, training etc. plus there are some new ideas every year, so if SI had these people available, they could use them to make these ideas real much faster. It's like a extra team available. Now they waist the "work force" and money for developing 3d which is far from being essential to this type of game.

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Simply, because "3d team" could develop something else. You said it wouldn't be ME. Ok, there is so much other things to develop; scouting, training etc. plus there are some new ideas every year, so if SI had these people available, they could use them to make these ideas real much faster. It's like a extra team available. Now they waist the "work force" and money for developing 3d which is far from being essential to this type of game.

What makes you think a 3d programmer is suddenly capable of coding scouting? or transfers etc.

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Yeah and those guys have no qualification for doing anything else, or are severely inexperienced, a 3D ME programmer isn't suddenly going to become a specialist at coding transfers or an artist.

People seem to think stuff like this is insanely easy. Thank god you wont ever touch game programming with a five foot pole.

Maybe you're right, but is it that difficult to fire them and hire people who are specialised in diferent aerias of programming?

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Yeah and those guys have no qualification for doing anything else, or are severely inexperienced, a 3D ME programmer isn't suddenly going to become a specialist at coding transfers or an artist.
Computer Graphics courses and developers are very good programmers in general and have loads of transferrable skills. This is because they will have large degrees of mathematical knowledge associated with it (i.e. animations, modelling, simulation, etc.). While there is often a good layer of abstraction between the display and the underlying engine (MVC), this just means that, in practice, they are used to coding other things. Someone who has worked on 3D graphics should be able to easily transition into similar mathematical or cognitive roles. An obvious alternative would be pure UI design.

It is not like 3D programmers are some niche, inflexible species that can only do one thing.

I personally think that anyone who can master 3D is a pretty good programmer as that is one of the most demanding areas in terms of mathematics and low-level programming. Consequently, I think 3D programmers will have amongst the most transferrable skills. Going in the opposite direction is a lot harder.

I think a bigger question is whether a 3D programmer would want to do something else... There are some areas some programmers won't want to touch. I did graphics programming a while back and didn't enjoy it, but can understand why some people love it. Those that do might not be interested in the programming I do today (programming for enterprises, with buzzwords like "scalability", "redundancy", "domain", "bean", etc.).

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