Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Now that the debate has returned to the realms of facts and opinion, unlike your average GD opinions and lies presented as facts, and all is well in the world, I am happy to let you have your opinion.

To be fair to myself, it wasnt me that compared the ME to urine & feces, I wasnt going to go quite that far.

:-)

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Not really, in my opinion. In FM12 the ball seems to move into a huge syroup bathtub. Or well let's say... a muddy scottish pitch after 1 week of heavy downpour.

OK I accept SI must have studied & analysed this so my interpretation may be wrong but on the latest patch the ball seems to roll like a hard ball on wood (like table-football/fussball), in my games it does anyway

[Target Practice]

Just to jump back a few posts to the 'individual player shouts' idea, perhaps there's a middle ground - instructions for 'sets' of players. I'm thinking of something as broad as 'defenders/midfield/forwards'. Let's use the given example and say 'trailing by a goal in injury time'.

You could instruct your defence to hoof the ball up the pitch as soon as they get it, the midfield to push up and support the forwards who are asked to hold it up and wait for the extra men from midfield.

There's not too much 'faff' in there, and it would give a lot more control over your team without going overboard and having to tell every individual player what you want them to do every time you decide you want to change your approach.

[BiggusD]

Not really, in my opinion. In FM12 the ball seems to move into a huge syroup bathtub. Or well let's say... a muddy scottish pitch after 1 week of heavy downpour.

In FM13 the ball is moving like a wet beanbag when the pass is short, and like a Snitch when the pass is long. Can't say that is any better...

[xambo]

This is where we are at:

I am working daily on the 13 ME to provide an update for you hopefully well before the February data update but no date has been set as it isnt ready yet. So far despite having reduced long shots and improved defending vs dribbling etc the knock-ons have left things unbalanced. For example there are not enough goals at lower levels but plenty at higher ones. So until I can sort that out, hopefully without new knock-ons I cant schedule an update. If we can rebalance quickly then we will release one ASAP and then decide thereafter if more improvements are needed before or on the data update.

Sorry I cant be more specific!

On a couple of other issues that have been raised I also want to have my say:

- Ball physics. We are far happier with the ball physics in 13 than with what we had in 12, which had a less realistic model. That doesnt mean all is perfect as shown by the odd curve bug but those are rare enough that we concentrate elsewhere for the remainder of the 13 process.

- Reverting to the 12 ME. We consider the 12 ME as "stable" as it was, to be far inferior to the 13 ME. There is roughly a -100000% chance that we will ever revert. We respect the opinions of those who disagree but the only advice I can give them unfortunately is to play 12 instead. Look on it as buying the latest album by a band you like. You get it but it turns out you prefer the album before so you listen to that instead. It happens and we know we can't please everybody.

Thanks all,

Paul

Appreciate the update. Keep them coming.

[Thunder88]

I know it's been mentioned before about random results but wow i've never seen a football manager game be so random..

Brentford have just beaten Aston Villa on mine 6-0 with 54% possession and 22 shots at goal

And this is a Villa side including Guzan,Hutton,Kilgallon,Clark,Westwood,Makoun,Gardener,Bent and Delfonueso

[Federico]

In FM13 the ball is moving like a wet beanbag when the pass is short, and like a Snitch when the pass is long. Can't say that is any better...

Mm. I think it is, compared to FM12. I, as many of us, had and have the impression it's more similar to an ice hockey puck rather than a leather ball, yet I prefer this to the earlier one.

[Kriss]

Mm. I think it is, compared to FM12. I, as many of us, had and have the impression it's more similar to an ice hockey puck rather than a leather ball, yet I prefer this to the earlier one.

It really isn't like this for me, I get the odd silly swerver and it does sometimes roll on longer than it should in relation to the pitch condition but that's all.

Makes me wonder if it's GPU related and needs some optimisation?

[Federico]

What do you suggest me to do? My video settings are:

Windowed

Gpu rendering: On

Detail: medium

Framerate: 60 (and everything enabled)

I confess I'm running a pretty old PC, Intel dual core with 4GB Ram, nVidia 9600 GT 1GB, on Win7

[Target Practice]

I'd be fairly surprised if it was the GPU, as by my understanding (and I'm willing to be corrected by someone who knows more about this than I do), the role of the GPU is just to output the outcome of the ME's calculations (for example how much momentum a rolling ball will lose in given conditions) onto your monitor/screen - I don't think it has any bearing on the actual processing and creation of those calculations - the only way I could see the GPU affecting the match engine would be if it was jumping and stuttering or the whole thing was seeming to run unusually quickly, in which case you'd be right (assuming you've got a suitable system), it'd probably need a bit of optimisation.

Might be wrong though, god knows it's happened before...

EDIT: Federico, I'm running on a much older lappy than that system (2gHz dual-core, 2GB RAM, GeForce 8600M GS), and apart from a bit of unresponsiveness regards clicking when the match is running (probably processor-related) and a slight split-second pause when goals go in, I've not really had any problems.

[Federico]

EDIT: Federico, I'm running on a much older lappy than that system, and apart from a bit of unresponsiveness regards clicking when the match is running and a slight split-second pause when goals go in, I've not really had any problems.

Oh, actually me neither

That "slight split-second pause when goals go in" is something a lot of us are encountering and I doubt it could be related to your system.

[nenshoua]

Had a couple of good games recently in FM 13 trying to emulate barcelona's tactic, i recorded some of the highlights to show some of the good moments of this ME.I woulda done it on youtube if i knew how.

http://www.twitch.tv/nenshoua/b/355257733#

EDIT: if anyone wants the tac, let me know, i will upload it someplace.

[Target Practice]

Ah, good. To be honest I wasn't overly worried about it, as problems with games go, it's one I can live with - not really that intrusive and doesn't actually change anything, but it's nice to know that it's not my rapidly-dying lappy that's causing it.

[Federico]

Yeah well... back to the puck-ball, I'm ok with it but I think a bit more friction especially on long passes wouldn't be bad. It seems it has an high and immutable inertia sometimes, keeping the momentum for too long.

[Hunter T]

You don't talk to one of the games creators in that manner on SI's forums, if you want to continue posting here modify your posting manner.

[Kriss]

I'd be fairly surprised if it was the GPU, as by my understanding (and I'm willing to be corrected by someone who knows more about this than I do), the role of the GPU is just to output the outcome of the ME's calculations (for example how much momentum a rolling ball will lose in given conditions) onto your monitor/screen - I don't think it has any bearing on the actual processing and creation of those calculations - the only way I could see the GPU affecting the match engine would be if it was jumping and stuttering or the whole thing was seeming to run unusually quickly, in which case you'd be right (assuming you've got a suitable system), it'd probably need a bit of optimisation.

Might be wrong though, god knows it's happened before...

EDIT: Federico, I'm running on a much older lappy than that system (2gHz dual-core, 2GB RAM, GeForce 8600M GS), and apart from a bit of unresponsiveness regards clicking when the match is running (probably processor-related) and a slight split-second pause when goals go in, I've not really had any problems.

I'm meaning optimisation of FM, it's obviously behaving somewhat differently on different systems.

[ethan76]

dear PaulC, thanks for the advice to play FM12 instead of FM13! I will follow it, and sure, I will keep in mind next year too.

great customer service! thanks!

[Siven]

I still prefer the 13.1 ME, you know the one.....when the game actually had through balls and work the ball into box shout wasnt needed at all times. Unforunately i only got the game in early Dec so i didnt get to play much before the change

[Keyzer Soze]

dear PaulC, thanks for the advice to play FM12 instead of FM13! I will follow it, and sure, I will keep in mind next year too.

great customer service! thanks!

Can't blame the man for being honest!

He is giving you a better product (FM2013), you say that you prefer the older product (FM2012)... so what can he say more?

[Sussex Hammer]

Would the ability to use shouts for individual players help atall? obviously appropriate ones.

Don't use the TC but I know what you mean but my concern would be we would be again moving further away from player ability, intelligence and decision making being a factor in the outcome of a fixture? My big worry about FM is that even though it's called Football Manager surely we don't want a game that is purely results based on the decisions of "you" the manager alone regardless of the quality of players you have at your disposal.

IRL to be a successful Football Club, yes a good Manager helps but generally it is the size of the Club and what quality players you can bring to your Club that brings that success, and to be a big Club and have quality players that is generally down to money. That's why the top sides are who they are, the Man United's and Chelsea's and Man City's and two of those were very ordinary before money played it's part. Pop Pepe Guardiola or Alex Ferguson in the hot seat at Reading they wouldn't be winning you the Premier League but put Brian McDermott in at Man Utd and he surely isn't going to do too badly because he has the players and money to spend on better than he can afford at Reading.

It's great that FM is trying to become as real life as possible but lets not forget that half the fun over the years was the fairly unrealistic options of getting money from a merchandising feeder Club, selling some of your players for extortionate fees and receiving unrealistic transfer budgets from your board or new sugar daddy to make your favourite Club a challenger to trophies they wouldn't have a chance of getting IRL. Take away that possibility in FM and you will have a very dull game.

I'd be more a fan of a pre match meeting with a decent AI Assistant rather than a TC where you discuss the opposition strengths and weaknesses, discuss your own and pick a team and formation accordingly. Maybe have a handful of shouts mid game if required and have a more in depth tactical discussion at half time. That would be truer to life than being able to shout 25 things at players in game who get confused very easily!!! Then after the game maybe a post match discussion with that efficient AI Assistant to see what worked and what didn't.

However, firstly we have to have an ME that allows you to play the way you want which means if you have players with rare long shots they won't hit it from 35 yards every time or if you are a goal down and have all your players on long passes they won't play keep ball in your back four until the cows come home!!! ;-)

[rooneyviet]

the ball I see in FM13, it is like a ball in hockey I see in movies.

it never stops .. it just keep going going and out the pitch. no matter that is short pass or long pass, weak or strong.

it's not really not real. the moving of players too, how they pass or dribbling.. it have a lot problems.

yeah, as I said yesterday I'm still waiting for the patch, in the meantime will play Fm12, which I think it's more more realistic than this.

[SmurfDude]

I don't particularly like the current ME, it's simply not enjoyable to watch. All the issues have already been raised so I won't repeat them. However behind the handful of major issues, there is a very good ME; this was more apparent in patch 13.1, even though the shots and goals were low, the overall play was quite excellent. I know there are many cries to rush out a fix, but my advice would be take your time and thoroughly test it to ensure we don't have a repeat of this car wreck of a thread.

[wwfan]

Don't use the TC but I know what you mean but my concern would be we would be again moving further away from player ability, intelligence and decision making being a factor in the outcome of a fixture? My big worry about FM is that even though it's called Football Manager surely we don't want a game that is purely results based on the decisions of "you" the manager alone regardless of the quality of players you have at your disposal.

IRL to be a successful Football Club, yes a good Manager helps but generally it is the size of the Club and what quality players you can bring to your Club that brings that success, and to be a big Club and have quality players that is generally down to money. That's why the top sides are who they are, the Man United's and Chelsea's and Man City's and two of those were very ordinary before money played it's part. Pop Pepe Guardiola or Alex Ferguson in the hot seat at Reading they wouldn't be winning you the Premier League but put Brian McDermott in at Man Utd and he surely isn't going to do too badly because he has the players and money to spend on better than he can afford at Reading.

It's great that FM is trying to become as real life as possible but lets not forget that half the fun over the years was the fairly unrealistic options of getting money from a merchandising feeder Club, selling some of your players for extortionate fees and receiving unrealistic transfer budgets from your board or new sugar daddy to make your favourite Club a challenger to trophies they wouldn't have a chance of getting IRL. Take away that possibility in FM and you will have a very dull game.

I'd be more a fan of a pre match meeting with a decent AI Assistant rather than a TC where you discuss the opposition strengths and weaknesses, discuss your own and pick a team and formation accordingly. Maybe have a handful of shouts mid game if required and have a more in depth tactical discussion at half time. That would be truer to life than being able to shout 25 things at players in game who get confused very easily!!! Then after the game maybe a post match discussion with that efficient AI Assistant to see what worked and what didn't.

I struggle with this argument as it is far too literal and confuses the necessity of limitations in game-play with how the real world works.

Firstly, classic v creator tactics. It is far more easy for a user to make a tactic that makes player quality completely irrelevant through the classic model. Why? The TC removes the fine-tuned control classic managers have access to. You are far more reliant on player quality because of this than you ever are when micro-setting sliders. The TC limits the manager to exactly the same decision structures as the AI, meaning he cannot magically beat everyone by getting his players to do something the AI is not capable of. The quality of the player becomes far more important that the structure of the tactic. In contrast, classic tactics can completely break the ME, giving the AI no chance of competing. Player quality becomes almost an irrelevance.

Secondly, nowhere in the game does it state that the "Shouts" as a match strategy cannot pre-exist the tactic and thus are not part of pre-match or in-match discussions. Indeed, you can develop and load up shout combinations to impose a playing style or match strategy prior to every game. You are restricting them to being something the manager only initiates during live play. That is not what they are nor how they are intended. I can accept that they are not integrated into the game as much as they could be and are sorely lacking from the training module, for example, resulting in people thinking that way. However, they are anything but random things shouted out from the sidelines to hopefully change games. They should be conceptualised as pre-match tactical planning put into operation, as should roles, duties, strategies and adjustments, and can be used to exactly simulate the meeting between the Assistant and manager. The FMC match plans touch at this and perhaps should be more integral to full fat FM.

Thirdly, as discussed in the tactics' forum, your idea that footballers should do a bit of everything and be trusted by the manager to make decisions on the pitch is fully integrated into the TC in the Very Fluid philosophy and generic role settings. Granted, there is no Vanilla Role for all positions in which every player is told to do everything on 'Mixed', which is what you seem to want. Do you really believe DCs should be given equal freedom to Run With the Ball as wingers? If so, then the TC doesn't do what you want. However, if you think they should be allowed to if the right opportunity opens up, then Very Fluid, the generic DC/D role/duty and some good decision making defenders will produce exactly what you are after.

Fourthly, you seem to think that your way of managing is the only way people manage. You state:

I know wwfan probably disagrees with me but after playing and managing in football for years I am a great believer that "all" players should try everything and probably have to try everything in a game because situations in a game call for that. Therefore in FM for years I am a great believer in having most settings on "mixed".

You continually misinterpret my position. I fully accept that some managers manage that way, and that the Very Fluid philosophy encourages and supports this belief. What I don't accept is that all managers manage this way, simply because of the reams of evidence, theoretical, empirical and practical, that they don't. Some manager are total control freaks and cannot abide players who deviate from their tactical plan. FM has to cater for both schools, in the extreme and the positions in between. The TC does that.

Ultimately, I think you are too focused on sliders and assume that your interpretation of them is how they actually work. That is the reason for your dissatisfaction with the tactical module. It has to be, because it does everything you are asking it to do and has actually moved the game significantly towards the necessity of having good players to do well and made dominance through exact tactical control far less likely, if not impossible. I'd go as far as flipping your whole argument over and argue that the sliders undermined player ability, intelligence and decision making, whereas the TC illuminates them.

[enemyzz]

Ultimately, I think you are too focused on sliders and assume that your interpretation of them is how they actually work. That is the reason for your dissatisfaction with the tactical module. It has to be, because it does everything you are asking it to do and has actually moved the game significantly towards the necessity of having good players to do well and made dominance through exact tactical control far less likely, if not impossible. I'd go as far as flipping your whole argument over and argue that the sliders undermined player ability, intelligence and decision making, whereas the TC illuminates them.

So wwfan being a classic manager myself, my main problem with the TC is that it tries to clump players into roles and duties that may not be ideal in regards to their stats, I.E Do you really want an attacking fullback with 7 crossing to be putting crosses in often? Or a Winger with dribbling of 9 running with ball often?

It seems like like FM is moving from the attributes playing a huge part and being very important to just an added bonus in relation to the ME's interpretation via the roles etc

[stevereay]

So wwfan being a classic manager myself, my main problem with the TC is that it tries to clump players into roles and duties that may not be ideal in regards to their stats, I.E Do you really want an attacking fullback with 7 crossing to be putting crosses in often? Or a Winger with dribbling of 9 running with ball often?

It seems like like FM is moving from the attributes playing a huge part and being very important to just an added bonus in relation to the ME's interpretation via the roles etc

You probably don't but just because you use the TC doesn't mean you cant then alter those settings so the fullback doesn't cross and the winger doesn't run.

[wwfan]

So wwfan being a classic manager myself, my main problem with the TC is that it tries to clump players into roles and duties that may not be ideal in regards to their stats, I.E Do you really want an attacking fullback with 7 crossing to be putting crosses in often? Or a Winger with dribbling of 9 running with ball often?

It seems like like FM is moving from the attributes playing a huge part and being very important to just an added bonus in relation to the ME's interpretation via the roles etc

The attributes are absolutely key. You need to create multiple chance types to break down a defence. To do that, you have to rely on FBs crossing or wingers dribbling, at least to an extent. What you can do using the sliders (or, at least, used to be able to do) is manipulate the players so they generated a series of one-dimensional chance types that the AI couldn't defend against or adapt to. In reality, a decent team would quickly adjust and mop you up. The knowledge of how you played would spread through the league, and all teams would counter your one-dimensionality.

Various aspects of the current ME have stopped a great degree of succeeding through one-dimensional ME and AI busting approaches. Many users have struggled in FM13 because they've suddenly discovered that they don't know how to create a range of chances. The range comes from perceiving your tactic holistically. You look at where you want to be creating chances, then do your best to train / buy players that fit into the system, or adapt it to those you do have. You know have to work out how to balance skills and attributes across a team, not just channel the ball to the one or two players who can make a difference.

If you have a good team, then you will have players capable of generating all these chance types on a regular basis, because they have good attributes. If not, then you'll struggle more, because your FB with a crossing of 7 keeps on overhitting his balls. What you can no longer do is artificially restrict everyone from trying all the things they should be doing in a holistic tactic and channel play through one or two key players, because the AI can now defend it. Good players and attributes are key across the whole squad, not just a few players.

[BiggusD]

The attributes are absolutely key. You need to create multiple chance types to break down a defence. To do that, you have to rely on FBs crossing or wingers dribbling, at least to an extent. What you can do using the sliders (or, at least, used to be able to do) is manipulate the players so they generated a series of one-dimensional chance types that the AI couldn't defend against or adapt to. In reality, a decent team would quickly adjust and mop you up. The knowledge of how you played would spread through the league, and all teams would counter your one-dimensionality.

Various aspects of the current ME have stopped a great degree of succeeding through one-dimensional ME and AI busting approaches. Many users have struggled in FM13 because they've suddenly discovered that they don't know how to create a range of chances. The range comes from perceiving your tactic holistically. You look at where you want to be creating chances, then do your best to train / buy players that fit into the system, or adapt it to those you do have. You know have to work out how to balance skills and attributes across a team, not just channel the ball to the one or two players who can make a difference.

If you have a good team, then you will have players capable of generating all these chance types on a regular basis, because they have good attributes. If not, then you'll struggle more, because your FB with a crossing of 7 keeps on overhitting his balls. What you can no longer do is artificially restrict everyone from trying all the things they should be doing in a holistic tactic and channel play through one or two key players, because the AI can now defend it. Good players and attributes are key across the whole squad, not just a few players.

Yeah I agree with this, actually. Holistic tactics is exactly what I am asking for. However, I'd argue that underpinning the TC is the idea that a certain singular approach should be achievable. Well not the TC but the roles and duties, really; the DMC D should defend and win possession of the ball, the AP MC should create chances, the IFA should join the TM in the box and the WS should cross to them. That's what people mean when they feel this ME does not make their players "follow the instructions". The expectation is that this should be what the players choose to do on a regular basis, regardless of other options, and they are of course disappointed since that is not how things work neither in FM nor in real life.

To avoid this misinterpretation of your TC, WWfan, maybe these specific roles should be optional along with more generalized roles in a team instruction system that.... pfff I mean, your constant communication to "keep it simple" indicates that people are confused and the wording of certain instructions should be looked at? I need to go to work but certainly you know what I mean?

[Rashidi]

Let´s say I set a player to IF/A with cut inside as wide play. Than I override this instruction to hug touchline or normal. He than has rather high attacking mentality( especially if combined with overall team attacking mentality). But he will still cut inside too often. No matter how much I want him to be attack minded he should most of the time follow my instrcution to not cut inside. In my team I have a guy set on Winger/A with hug touchline but he still cuts inside time after time after time. He cuts inside with his weaker foot (which is illogical of course) and shoots wide. Cant do anything about it.

There is no override button in the game. Flicking that doesnt mean that player will hug the touchline 100% of the time. If your player is cutting inside a lot then its definitely the way the tactic is set up. I have my wingers always hugging the byeline and my fullbacks creating mayhem by running inside. Its my version of throw the kitchen skin, toilet bowl mother in-law go get a goal.

I have a 4411 tactic where I want my fullbacks to cut inside and make runs at the goal once they are near the penalty box, and that happens. At the moment I reckon the game is lacking in some very critical areas such as man marking and off the ball movement and how teams work together to defend or attack. But when it comes to the hug touchline instruction I dont

[enemyzz]

There is no override button in the game. Flicking that doesnt mean that player will hug the touchline 100% of the time. If your player is cutting inside a lot then its definitely the way the tactic is set up. I have my wingers always hugging the byeline and my fullbacks creating mayhem by running inside. Its my version of throw the kitchen skin, toilet bowl mother in-law go get a goal.

I have a 4411 tactic where I want my fullbacks to cut inside and make runs at the goal once they are near the penalty box, and that happens. At the moment I reckon the game is lacking in some very critical areas such as man marking and off the ball movement and how teams work together to defend or attack. But when it comes to the hug touchline instruction I dont

I think it needs to be mentioned that PPM play a fairly big role in how players play. If you have a team full of "shoots from distance" then obviously your team is going to have the long shot problem.... Likewise with the cutting inside if your winger has the PPM then hes gunna do it. Do not overlook PPM's!!!

[PinkYoshi]

There is roughly a -100000% chance that we will ever revert.

Thanks all,

Paul

So you are saying there IS a chance? YESSSS!

[rooneyviet]

So you are saying there IS a chance? YESSSS!

I think he meant they will never ever revert.

[PinkYoshi]

I think he meant they will never ever revert.

[RTHerringbone]

Great stuff above, initiated by wwfan's response to Sussex Hammer's post.

wwfan far better articulates what I failed to do when I wrote "My take is that there has to be a level of tactical instruction, and I also feel that the move to Tactics Creator and Shouts from Classic Tactics is more intuitive, less ambiguous, and feels more human."

What I find interesting is that BiggusD and Sussex Hammer both (I think) use Classic Tactics, but their comments relate to the interpretation of player instructions and intelligence.

Classic Tactics for me are the embodiment of perfunctory tactics; TC is really intuitive and whilst Roles and Duties may not be regarded as perfect, they allow you to immediately control multiple perfunctory sliders and yield the same results (when coupled with shouts) as if you adjusted them all individually in Classic Tactics (albeit you can't remove individuals' propensity to run / shoot / cross without manually tweaking their sliders).

There's no way I'd begin to challenge wwfan's knowledge of in-game tactics considering his direct input into them, but what could be questioned is his ability to remain entirely objective considering that level of input. However, that's what forums are about; alternate views being discussed.

I believe that TC and Shouts are excellent, and that they enable BiggusD, Sussex Hammer et al to achieve broadly what they want.

However, I do feel that something remains lacking; I'm not yet convinced that individuality is sufficiently expressed within the frameworks we set. I don't have any hard and fast examples of this though, so it's just a hypothesis rather than a fact.

Anyhow, off to work.

[Alvios1973]

This is where we are at:

I am working daily on the 13 ME to provide an update for you hopefully well before the February data update but no date has been set as it isnt ready yet. So far despite having reduced long shots and improved defending vs dribbling etc the knock-ons have left things unbalanced. For example there are not enough goals at lower levels but plenty at higher ones. So until I can sort that out, hopefully without new knock-ons I cant schedule an update. If we can rebalance quickly then we will release one ASAP and then decide thereafter if more improvements are needed before or on the data update.

Sorry I cant be more specific!

On a couple of other issues that have been raised I also want to have my say:

- Ball physics. We are far happier with the ball physics in 13 than with what we had in 12, which had a less realistic model. That doesnt mean all is perfect as shown by the odd curve bug but those are rare enough that we concentrate elsewhere for the remainder of the 13 process.

- Reverting to the 12 ME. We consider the 12 ME as "stable" as it was, to be far inferior to the 13 ME. There is roughly a -100000% chance that we will ever revert. We respect the opinions of those who disagree but the only advice I can give them unfortunately is to play 12 instead. Look on it as buying the latest album by a band you like. You get it but it turns out you prefer the album before so you listen to that instead. It happens and we know we can't please everybody.

Thanks all,

Paul

No, please repeat... U've said REALLY to people who has PURCHASED FM 13 to play FM 12?... Please tell me that's a joke! How can u say something like that? I've PAID for a product and i CLAIM to play the game what i've PAID for! Sorry Paul but it seems just a arrogant response. You've also done the wrong music example, a band or a singer doesn't realease an album where there's a lots of bugs or songs sliced in half.

It was more fair to say SORRY for a product that is far from enough this year, match-engine HAS problems (really BIG ones) and in this case being humble maybe prevent the not best-selling next year.

Hoping FM 14 will be much more better than this one.

Cheers

Alvios

[wwfan]

Yeah I agree with this, actually. Holistic tactics is exactly what I am asking for. However, I'd argue that underpinning the TC is the idea that a certain singular approach should be achievable. Well not the TC but the roles and duties, really; the DMC D should defend and win possession of the ball, the AP MC should create chances, the IFA should join the TM in the box and the WS should cross to them. That's what people mean when they feel this ME does not make their players "follow the instructions". The expectation is that this should be what the players choose to do on a regular basis, regardless of other options, and they are of course disappointed since that is not how things work neither in FM nor in real life.

To avoid this misinterpretation of your TC, WWfan, maybe these specific roles should be optional along with more generalized roles in a team instruction system that.... pfff I mean, your constant communication to "keep it simple" indicates that people are confused and the wording of certain instructions should be looked at? I need to go to work but certainly you know what I mean?

I'm not going to argue that the TC couldn't be more sophisticated or that the instructions couldn't be clearer. Of course it and they could. However, that's not the only problem.

We had a forum and scene wide misperception that the TC "dumbed down" the game and a long-time obsession with designing and downloading super-tactics. FM13 illustrated just how many people had never even tried the TC beyond a couple of cursory games after which they gave up as it "didn't work". We also have to deal with people obsessing about exactly what each slider means and thinking that a couple of clicks make all the difference in the world. We then have the "I understand football and it's not my tactics" posters. Not to mention myths about tactics-cracking, super-goalies and other AI cheats.

Add on the expectations that players should religiously follow instructions, no matter what, plus the notion that you should do well simply by setting sliders to mirror attributes, and you'll see the massive issue we have. Lots of bad but complex theories and blind hubris obfuscating what is really a very simple game. It's not just the lack of in-game info, but the masses of bad out-of-game info the fan forums generate. My method of dealing with it is strongly challenging those who try to spread incorrect information (as you've seen for yourself) and offering simple advice for those willing to listen.

In answer to your other point, the current ME certainly impacts on the TC in its mis-balance between long shots and through balls, but that's something I expect to improve. I also don't think it makes a logically sound tactic suddenly stop winning. If it did, it would never have been released.

[Target Practice]

I'm meaning optimisation of FM, it's obviously behaving somewhat differently on different systems.

Yeah, sorry, that was what I was getting at with that post - I probably just didn't get across what I meant properly.

Long story short, I'm at least moderately sure it's probably not got too much to do with the GPU (unless GPU is a different acronym I'm not familiar with). As above, I don't know the first thing about how FM's been built though, so I reserve my right to be proved utterly wrong.

[BiggusD]

Great stuff above, initiated by wwfan's response to Sussex Hammer's post.

wwfan far better articulates what I failed to do when I wrote "My take is that there has to be a level of tactical instruction, and I also feel that the move to Tactics Creator and Shouts from Classic Tactics is more intuitive, less ambiguous, and feels more human."

What I find interesting is that BiggusD and Sussex Hammer both (I think) use Classic Tactics, but their comments relate to the interpretation of player instructions and intelligence.

Classic Tactics for me are the embodiment of perfunctory tactics; TC is really intuitive and whilst Roles and Duties may not be regarded as perfect, they allow you to immediately control multiple perfunctory sliders and yield the same results (when coupled with shouts) as if you adjusted them all individually in Classic Tactics (albeit you can't remove individuals' propensity to run / shoot / cross without manually tweaking their sliders).

There's no way I'd begin to challenge wwfan's knowledge of in-game tactics considering his direct input into them, but what could be questioned is his ability to remain entirely objective considering that level of input. However, that's what forums are about; alternate views being discussed.

I believe that TC and Shouts are excellent, and that they enable BiggusD, Sussex Hammer et al to achieve broadly what they want.

However, I do feel that something remains lacking; I'm not yet convinced that individuality is sufficiently expressed within the frameworks we set. I don't have any hard and fast examples of this though, so it's just a hypothesis rather than a fact.

Anyhow, off to work.

To be fair, before I even begin ticking off sliders I start with a TC tactic. I then adjust slider by slider until I have a tactic that I am happy with, and then I lock the rest of the sliders as well. It is only then that I convert to Classic. The reason I do that at all is because I upload tactics on this forum and I want to avoid the confusion that may arise when those downloading it tries to use shouts and role changes that cannot work. This does not mean that I do not change stuff during matches. I often do the equivalent of changing my full backs from S to D in the TC, if necessary (Mentality, Closing Down, RfD and RwB reduced).

In other words, I know that my full backs are very similar to a Full Back Support in a roughly Control/Attack strategy with wingers in front of them. I also often move my AMRL's to MRL position if I struggle defensively on the flanks, without changing anything else (which won't happen in the TC), and I know that they are similar to IF-s roles. In FM11 and 12 only my AMRL's had RfD Sometimes while the rest were set to Rarely, but in FM13 only the DC's are set to Rarely while the rest are Sometimes.... something I assume will please WWfan no end

It was necessary because the four up front no longer gave me an inherent numerical advantage. When making this tactic in the TC, it actually worked quite decently on rather default settings, something that wasn't possible in FM11 and 12. This is because it is actually just a more specialized 442. The biggest differences are that my DMC's have a non-existent Attack duty and that I have set the Tempo to almost slow with normal passing while mentalities are almost universally roughly Attacking (15); something that isn't possible with default team instructions in the TC.

[edgar555]

No, please repeat... U've said REALLY to people who has PURCHASED FM 13 to play FM 12?... Please tell me that's a joke! How can u say something like that? I've PAID for a product and i CLAIM to play the game what i've PAID for! Sorry Paul but it seems just a arrogant response. You've also done the wrong music example, a band or a singer doesn't realease an album where there's a lots of bugs or songs sliced in half.

It was more fair to say SORRY for a product that is far from enough this year, match-engine HAS problems (really BIG ones) and in this case being humble maybe prevent the not best-selling next year.

Hoping FM 14 will be much more better than this one.

Cheers

Alvios

If you'd actually read his whole post instead of jumping on the bandwagon and crying, he said that people who were upset about the ball physics - a tiny minority who clearly have eyesight problems - would be best served by playing 12 because he has little to no intention of tweaking them.

[jasse]

Guys, what do you mean by Classic Tactic and then TC and then converting to Classic? you got me really confused here....... cheers

[Rashidi]

Great stuff above, initiated by wwfan's response to Sussex Hammer's post.

I believe that TC and Shouts are excellent, and that they enable BiggusD, Sussex Hammer et al to achieve broadly what they want.

However, I do feel that something remains lacking; I'm not yet convinced that individuality is sufficiently expressed within the frameworks we set. I don't have any hard and fast examples of this though, so it's just a hypothesis rather than a fact.

Anyhow, off to work.

I completely agree, atm almost all my tactics feature major changes to creative freedom and closing down, to achieve what I want. And then I make minor really minor changes to mentality. Its not to say that the philosophies are wrong, its just that I want a different style of football to be played. You can achieve good football with the TC and in fact I would recommend everyone should use the TC regardless of your knowledge of the game, but if one wants to use the custom tactic creator they need to know what they are doing. Once you get comfortable with the TC, you will be surprised at the football you can produce with minor changes.

The shouts arent even vital to the game, since you can actually get the same effect by modifying some elements in your tactic. The reason why the shouts exist is to help people achieve a certain level of play without having to delve into the complexities of moving sliders and ticks around to achieve what many perceive to be a fundamental style of play. I've seen some bizarre assertions made by people, the worse of them being mirror instructions based on the players you have..thats way too much micromanagement. The game is simple, the TC is just a simplified way of putting various styles of play out there.. consider them a template. Once people stop overcomplicating things..it should be easier, FM12 wasnt a better engine than FM13.

There are glaring issues with the engine but these are in no way game enders.

[RTHerringbone]

@BiggusD The challenge that your tactical process creates though is for the audience you upload to.

A holistic locked down tactic can only work without tweaks in a linear environment where the AI doesn't respond. The theory behind how the team is set up is all well and good, but as soon as the opposition drops deep, plays wider, goes direct.....

You may have the expertise to use Classic Tactics to respond to those AI responses, but I know from experience in the Upload forum that as soon as stuff goes wrong, you are probably getting inundated with people saying "how do I.....".

This is a symptom of the one dimensional nature of a Classic Tactic - one dimensional in the sense that if Plan A doesn't work, then to form Plan B you need to start moving sliders.

I don't think that many people actually understand sliders, and whilst uploading tactics is done with good intent, it possibly discourages users from learning.

That in turn generates a lot of the ire we see in this forum, which is probably people just not attempting to understand what is going wrong.

[BiggusD]

I'm not going to argue that the TC couldn't be more sophisticated or that the instructions couldn't be clearer. Of course it and they could. However, that's not the only problem.

We had a forum and scene wide misperception that the TC "dumbed down" the game and a long-time obsession with designing and downloading super-tactics. FM13 illustrated just how many people had never even tried the TC beyond a couple of cursory games after which they gave up as it "didn't work". We also have to deal with people obsessing about exactly what each slider means and thinking that a couple of clicks make all the difference in the world. We then have the "I understand football and it's not my tactics" posters. Not to mention myths about tactics-cracking, super-goalies and other AI cheats.

Add on the expectations that players should religiously follow instructions, no matter what, plus the notion that you should do well simply by setting sliders to mirror attributes, and you'll see the massive issue we have. Lots of bad but complex theories and blind hubris obfuscating what is really a very simple game. It's not just the lack of in-game info, but the masses of bad out-of-game info the fan forums generate. My method of dealing with it is strongly challenging those who try to spread incorrect information (as you've seen for yourself) and offering simple advice for those willing to listen.

In answer to your other point, the current ME certainly impacts on the TC in its mis-balance between long shots and through balls, but that's something I expect to improve. I also don't think it makes a logically sound tactic suddenly stop winning. If it did, it would never have been released.

Fair enough. I appreciate the difficulty of satisfying two extreme opposites; those who want a very specific game-plan to be followed to the letter and those who want on-the-spot decision-making. However, I believe there is an under-reported third group; those who don't really know what they want to achieve when making a tactic. Formulating that idea or philosophy requires insight not only into football but also how FM translates it. Not everyone is that analytical, or patient enough to figure it out for themselves the hard way. The problem, then, is that the TC or the game around it does not explain how to achieve what they vaguely believe they want from their tactic. If the tactic is unsound, the 3d animations do not really communicate what the problem is, and the assistant certainly do not. What if the TC is simplified even further as an option?

1. Choose formation

2. Choose philosophy: General or Specialized

3. If General, choose Strategy; Urgent, Standard, Patient

4. Give the tactic a name and save it.

5. If Specialized, you continue with the current TC ui

In other words, if you want you could create a "vanilla" tactic in three clicks, and this would be a rather fluid, symmetrical tactic with general roles like MC-s and MC-d and WM-A x2 and a DLF-S and an AF-A etc, and then these roles must be designed to leave most of the decision-making up to the players. Right now I feel that these "standard" roles are set to do too many things at Often, and the current Standard strategy is too passive. It should keep things tight in the back and allocate -enough- resources to overwhelm the opponent if the players are better, so the decision-making of the players should really be enough to control the match without manually dedicating more players forward and changing the playing-style by switching to Control.

[BiggusD]

@BiggusD The challenge that your tactical process creates though is for the audience you upload to.

A holistic locked down tactic can only work without tweaks in a linear environment where the AI doesn't respond. The theory behind how the team is set up is all well and good, but as soon as the opposition drops deep, plays wider, goes direct.....

You may have the expertise to use Classic Tactics to respond to those AI responses, but I know from experience in the Upload forum that as soon as stuff goes wrong, you are probably getting inundated with people saying "how do I.....".

This is a symptom of the one dimensional nature of a Classic Tactic - one dimensional in the sense that if Plan A doesn't work, then to form Plan B you need to start moving sliders.

I don't think that many people actually understand sliders, and whilst uploading tactics is done with good intent, it possibly discourages users from learning.

That in turn generates a lot of the ire we see in this forum, which is probably people just not attempting to understand what is going wrong.

If the tactic is designed to both be able to counter-attack and have long, patient attacks without sending too many players forward too early, the players should have the framework at hand to be able to deal with various strategies employed by the opposition. I think I have achieved this, but I don't know if anyone else experiences the same when using it. I reject the notion that there is a need to respond to anything - simply because a response is an attempt at dealing with a problem, not a success. If FM ever became a game where the AI auto-stops your approach by doing "the right change" (even if it is logically the right thing to do), then it would become unplayable.

I disagree with the learning part. Many people can learn a lot by downloading a functional tactic and see what its creator did, as well as by using it until it is familiar and then tweak it based on observation.

[couragewolf101]

The way i feel about this ME, is that the lack of through balls actually makes it difficult for weaker teams to beat stronger teams with a strategy other than tank 30 shots and then score 1 lucky shot on the counter.

[Rashidi]

1. Choose formation

2. Choose philosophy: General or Specialized

3. If General, choose Strategy; Urgent, Standard, Patient

4. Give the tactic a name and save it.

5. If Specialized, you continue with the current TC ui

In other words, if you want you could create a "vanilla" tactic in three clicks, and this would be a rather fluid, symmetrical tactic with general roles like MC-s and MC-d and WM-A x2 and a DLF-S and an AF-A etc, and then these roles must be designed to leave most of the decision-making up to the players. Right now I feel that these "standard" roles are set to do too many things at Often, and the current Standard strategy is too passive. It should keep things tight in the back and allocate -enough- resources to overwhelm the opponent if the players are better, so the decision-making of the players should really be enough to control the match without manually dedicating more players forward and changing the playing-style by switching to Control.

This is where the discussion becomes interesting, I for one think that the TC for a new kid on the block, is going to be very challenging. In fact, I think that whilst it does a good job of making solid tactics, it makes a poor job of translating how the the tactic works holistically. For example, what do philosophies mean and what do they do? Then we get to strategy it says counter attacking..but when you look at the team playing it looks like its playing possession based football?; atm this is the TCs glaring weakness. The match engine merely translates the instructions that come from the Tactical Creator. So its fairly easy for someone to choose 4 shouts and go what the heck..its not working. FM14's biggest challenge will not be further refinement of the engine, but the Tactical Creator's relevance to translating football. Getting the TC to translate everything will mean adding so much complexity to the game that it will start becoming too hard to play. We dont need it to be dumbed down either, what we need are better definitions by style of play when you have the ball and when you don't. Thats what teams do in real life.

Style of Play (with ball) - Possession Based, Attacking, Balanced and Defensive, this should set your mentality, creative freedom dline, closing down

Urgency of Play (with ball) - Patient, Balanced, Fast, this should affect tempo, passing and timewasting.

Style of Play (without ball) Full Press, Forward Press, Press in Own Half, Press in Own third this sets closing down, Zonal Tight. Zonal Loose, Man Tight Man Loose

If I were to go into a game for the first time and I see something like that, I can actually visualize how my team will play the game, I am not suggesting that we should overhaul the TC, but I reckon if we were to either A, make better definitions or B, include styles of play when we have and don't have the ball, then more people will be able to translate the TC to get the football they want.

Just my pennys worth..this is so off topic..soz.

[PaulC]

Interesting this discussion about TC vs Classic. Myself, I feel TC is the way forward beyond 13, but we need to make the roles far more recognisable inside the ME..........this will I feel add hugely to the experience.

But we are digressing

[Welshace]

Maybe so Paul... but it would be a huge step backwards to take away the ability to manually tweak in the form of classic tactics too...

That's a huge part of football management and to simplify it right down to the TC would be horrible.

[milnerpoint]

I dont see why, the sliders are nothing but confusing and unhelpful unless you have used them for years, the TC is easy to understand with a lot of room for improvement and expansion. I'd like to see FM without sliders at some point.

[SeanNUFC]

On the new patch(13.2.2), for some reason i now can't skip press conferences.

[jasse]

guys, what do you mean by TC?