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Stuart Warren

Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

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Replace finished with "stable". To me, these aren't "improvements" which are being made, instead they are "fixes".

It also seems the long shots issue is symptomatic of poor decision making from players - the player chooses to shoot as a preferred option to a through ball.

I agree with this completely.

I appreciate SI getting back to us and letting us know that they are working on a new patch. I just really hope that it does address more than just the excessive long-shots, and deals with other major issues such as

- Lack of through balls

- Lack of attacking play/dribbling from the centre compared to wings

- Poor pass decisions, i.e. the excessive back-passing when there is a better forward (or even sideways!) pass to play & the constant passing the ball into the back of another player or making a poor pass that is easily cut out when under no pressure.

- Defenders still bunching on players and definitely still unable to follow their man marking or zonal marking instructions (i.e full-backs moving half-way across the pitch or deep cover defenders moving half-way UP the pitch to close down someone)

- Lack of crosses being cut out/wingers tackled. Full-backs seem useless in the game defensively, most of the time they'll just jockey alongside the attacking winger and then let them get in an easy cross that is hardly ever cut out.

- The general lack of accuracy of shots, whether it be outside or inside the box they seem to be quite poor overall.

It does appear that a large amount of these problems are in fact caused by poor AI decision-making that seems to exist in this match engine. The fact that quite a few people have noticed that all of your team plays better by turning creative freedom to zero confirms this for me. Defenders don't seem to know who/where to mark or when to make a tackle and for the most part attacking players don't know when to shoot or try for a through ball. And almost none of the players seem to know what is the best passing option to make most of the time!

Really hope 13.3 resolves most of these problems. I understand that SI started with a new ME for FM13 and that it's a work in progress, but each edition of Football Manager is a standalone by itself and we shouldn't have to wait until FM14 to have a game that plays like it should. Right now, the ME - and therefore the game as a whole - is still totally unenjoyable in my opinion, unless you want to cater your tactics entirely around exploiting the highly uneven match engine in its current form. And doing that in itself is certainly not enjoyable either.

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Not seeing high amount of dribbles and goals several mentions.

Lots of tackles, though.

High amount (50-80%) of long shots even though it's set to rarely for all players. Long shots even happens when there are plenty of passing options.

All players seem to want to be near the ball all the time. Perhaps this is the reason behind all the long shots?

I'm using a narrow formation with wingbacks (2-3-2-1-2), rigid. For some reason I often see 6-7 of my players running around near the ball instead of spreading out.

Defending is too often stupid to watch - especially the goalkeeper.

I prefer the 13.2 patch instead of 13.2.1.

I'm not impressed by SI putting a product like this on the market. Much work still to be done.

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As the January update doesn't usually arrive till March you're being somewhat pessimistic :) and SI have stated clearly that they're any but "not bothered" so don't put words in their mouths please.

Trouble is Kriss we get one official brief comment from PaulC which can be interpreted many different ways.

Originally Posted by PaulC viewpost-right.png The ME will never be "finished" in my eyes. Its always a work in progress because there is always something that can be done to improve it.

We'll look to improve it further in 13.3 and perhaps even before that if I can tone down long shots without causing unwanted knock on's elsewhere. After 13.3 it will be time to turn my attention to FM2014.

Just after Christmas Paul stated he aimed to release a Hot fix to solve the issues if he could in the next couple of weeks. Now from the last comment we can read that as he will hot fix it before 13.3 if he can avoid any knock on issues otherwise we are getting one more patch. 13.3 the assumed Jan update patch which is release around Feb/Mar time. So again we are all trying to interpret what has been said.

I would suggest that if a hot fix cant be made to work with out knock on affects then as paying customers we are given a choice of the best ME to play on. A vote on here with the general conscientious being the choice is a fair option. Prior to steam in these cases we could all just roll the game back to where we were each individually happy with a patch to play on. steam we can't. we have to go into offline mode which for a lot of people is no good. I play other games on steam i must be online to play with therefore FM updates and i'm stuck on an engine which is not making me enjoy the game. The other option is to keep FM booted at all times so it does update. this is not healthy for my PC.

Hopefully some more clear information will come in the next few days I.e we will get a hot fix in roughly x weeks. or we wont and will have to wait for 13.3 which will be released in roughly x weeks. Not expecting definitive dates but certainly more information to help keep me and the masses calm and up to date with the progress of a work in progress game. A quick update on here takes no more than 5 min's surely we deserve this.

In future I will not be buying FM at release date. I'm just gonna stick to a previous stable version until we are told the ME is bug free and finished. I would anticipate that many other people are now considering this as an option.

I trust this is still taken as constructive criticism I don't mean to bash SI I just ask for more clarity.

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Has anyone actually lobbed the keeper?

Apart from a poor backpass, my players have never got a 1 on 1. Might be my tactic though as I don't really play a striker with pace.

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Trouble is Kriss we get one official brief comment from PaulC which can be interpreted many different ways.

Just after Christmas Paul stated he aimed to release a Hot fix to solve the issues if he could in the next couple of weeks. Now from the last comment we can read that as he will hot fix it before 13.3 if he can avoid any knock on issues otherwise we are getting one more patch. 13.3 the assumed Jan update patch which is release around Feb/Mar time. So again we are all trying to interpret what has been said.

I would suggest that if a hot fix cant be made to work with out knock on affects then as paying customers we are given a choice of the best ME to play on. A vote on here with the general conscientious being the choice is a fair option. Prior to steam in these cases we could all just roll the game back to where we were each individually happy with a patch to play on. steam we can't. we have to go into offline mode which for a lot of people is no good. I play other games on steam i must be online to play with therefore FM updates and i'm stuck on an engine which is not making me enjoy the game. The other option is to keep FM booted at all times so it does update. this is not healthy for my PC.

Hopefully some more clear information will come in the next few days I.e we will get a hot fix in roughly x weeks. or we wont and will have to wait for 13.3 which will be released in roughly x weeks. Not expecting definitive dates but certainly more information to help keep me and the masses calm and up to date with the progress of a work in progress game. A quick update on here takes no more than 5 min's surely we deserve this.

In future I will not be buying FM at release date. I'm just gonna stick to a previous stable version until we are told the ME is bug free and finished. I would anticipate that many other people are now considering this as an option.

I trust this is still taken as constructive criticism I don't mean to bash SI I just ask for more clarity.

Well said, i totally agree with all of this.

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Has anyone actually lobbed the keeper?

Apart from a poor backpass, my players have never got a 1 on 1. Might be my tactic though as I don't really play a striker with pace.

I did actually have a spectacular 45 yard a la Beckham lob, sadly it was back before even the first update, so 'nuff said :D

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In future I will not be buying FM at release date. I'm just gonna stick to a previous stable version until we are told the ME is bug free and finished. I would anticipate that many other people are now considering this as an option.

Same for me.

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Trouble is Kriss we get one official brief comment from PaulC which can be interpreted many different ways.

Just after Christmas Paul stated he aimed to release a Hot fix to solve the issues if he could in the next couple of weeks. Now from the last comment we can read that as he will hot fix it before 13.3 if he can avoid any knock on issues otherwise we are getting one more patch. 13.3 the assumed Jan update patch which is release around Feb/Mar time. So again we are all trying to interpret what has been said.

I would suggest that if a hot fix cant be made to work with out knock on affects then as paying customers we are given a choice of the best ME to play on. A vote on here with the general conscientious being the choice is a fair option. Prior to steam in these cases we could all just roll the game back to where we were each individually happy with a patch to play on. steam we can't. we have to go into offline mode which for a lot of people is no good. I play other games on steam i must be online to play with therefore FM updates and i'm stuck on an engine which is not making me enjoy the game. The other option is to keep FM booted at all times so it does update. this is not healthy for my PC.

Hopefully some more clear information will come in the next few days I.e we will get a hot fix in roughly x weeks. or we wont and will have to wait for 13.3 which will be released in roughly x weeks. Not expecting definitive dates but certainly more information to help keep me and the masses calm and up to date with the progress of a work in progress game. A quick update on here takes no more than 5 min's surely we deserve this.

In future I will not be buying FM at release date. I'm just gonna stick to a previous stable version until we are told the ME is bug free and finished. I would anticipate that many other people are now considering this as an option.

I trust this is still taken as constructive criticism I don't mean to bash SI I just ask for more clarity.

he made a longer post earlier in the thread if you read back. Has more info.

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Trouble is Kriss we get one official brief comment from PaulC which can be interpreted many different ways.

Just after Christmas Paul stated he aimed to release a Hot fix to solve the issues if he could in the next couple of weeks. Now from the last comment we can read that as he will hot fix it before 13.3 if he can avoid any knock on issues otherwise we are getting one more patch. 13.3 the assumed Jan update patch which is release around Feb/Mar time. So again we are all trying to interpret what has been said.

I would suggest that if a hot fix cant be made to work with out knock on affects then as paying customers we are given a choice of the best ME to play on. A vote on here with the general conscientious being the choice is a fair option. Prior to steam in these cases we could all just roll the game back to where we were each individually happy with a patch to play on. steam we can't. we have to go into offline mode which for a lot of people is no good. I play other games on steam i must be online to play with therefore FM updates and i'm stuck on an engine which is not making me enjoy the game. The other option is to keep FM booted at all times so it does update. this is not healthy for my PC.

Hopefully some more clear information will come in the next few days I.e we will get a hot fix in roughly x weeks. or we wont and will have to wait for 13.3 which will be released in roughly x weeks. Not expecting definitive dates but certainly more information to help keep me and the masses calm and up to date with the progress of a work in progress game. A quick update on here takes no more than 5 min's surely we deserve this.

In future I will not be buying FM at release date. I'm just gonna stick to a previous stable version until we are told the ME is bug free and finished. I would anticipate that many other people are now considering this as an option.

I trust this is still taken as constructive criticism I don't mean to bash SI I just ask for more clarity.

It isn't possible for him to be any more definitive yet, so interpretations are best not attempted, that isn't because he doesn't want to predict it's because he can't.

He has committed to making this ME as balanced as possible before moving to FM14 and given his and SI's track record for commitment I trust him to do so.

Steam makes hot fixes easy to roll out so he isn't limited to extensive updates in sll circumstances.

Unfortunately choice of ME isn't going to be an option, nice theory but totally impractical.

Ideally steam would give you the choice to update or not as some other games do (ideal for you, not SI:))

I sympathise with the frustrated but have already explained at length why this is an unusual year for the ME and even given some mistakes SI deserve some license given the whole circumstances.

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I still don't understand tackling. You never see it in the highlights, yet I just had three of my players booked in 16 minutes and overall had committed 9 fouls. This happening despite all my players being technically superior to the opposition, having my tacking set to more cautious, and using the 'stay on feet shout'. I can only guess it's because I use a narrow formation and they use wingers, who are impossible to tackle.

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It isn't possible for him to be any more definitive yet, so interpretations are best not attempted, that isn't because he doesn't want to predict it's because he can't.

I sympathise with the frustrated but have already explained at length why this is an unusual year for the ME and even given some mistakes SI deserve some license given the whole circumstances.

And so customers must be given license to complain after have paid full price a product ready maybe at 50%.

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And so customers must be given license to complain after have paid full price a product ready maybe at 50%.

Are you saying they haven't? :D

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Are you saying they haven't? :D

I'm saying that sometimes the defence on company and product is too weak compared to evidences.

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And so customers must be given license to complain after have paid full price a product ready maybe at 50%.

Were you forced to buy the game?

There is a lot of frustration evident throughout this thread, but things really need to be given a heavy dose of context:

1. It is just a game

2. It isn't actually "broken" or "unplayable"; it has a handful of irritating bugs but is generally a robust build

3. SI have a track record of incrementally improving MEs - this will be the same

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Were you forced to buy the game?

There is a lot of frustration evident throughout this thread, but things really need to be given a heavy dose of context:

1. It is just a game

2. It isn't actually "broken" or "unplayable"; it has a handful of irritating bugs but is generally a robust build

3. SI have a track record of incrementally improving MEs - this will be the same

Absolutely not of course. Actually the earlier realeases were better and I trusted that i would have played a great game after 2 patch/fixes. Unfortunately this hasn't happened.

I will be more carefull next time on how to spend my money though.

Yeah it's just a game, with its cost. I won't certainly starve for that :) what I mean is I just expected something close to be complete.

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Ok i'm seriously pissed now and i gotta vent! Wth is wrong with the penalties??? I've been noticing this quite a lot but now i'm playing against man utd at the quarters of the champions, they've made 2 penalties in the first 15 minutes and Cavani fails both? seriously wth guys!!! JEBUS SAVES US!

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Yeah it's just a game, with its cost. I won't certainly starve for that :) what I mean is I just expected something close to be complete.

Same here, and it 's only because we all love the game.

My current save is going well, and I can live with the bugs as they aren't overly prevalent for me (I only watch key highlights!)

The way the updates and hotfixes have changed the ME show just how much of a ball ache it must be to adjust the code, it isn't something I would want to try myself.

SI are under huge pressure with the likes of this forum, the instant updates on Steam, and an increasing "feedback" culture.

Imagine going to work, doing something, and then seeing hordes of people you don't know posting this, that, and the other about their perception of what you have tried to do?

Doesn't matter if you are a mechanic, a lawyer, if you flip burgers or are the Prime Minister - that's a load of pressure and it must be hard to deflect the over zealous grumbles.

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Were you forced to buy the game?

There is a lot of frustration evident throughout this thread, but things really need to be given a heavy dose of context:

1. It is just a game

2. It isn't actually "broken" or "unplayable"; it has a handful of irritating bugs but is generally a robust build

3. SI have a track record of incrementally improving MEs - this will be the same

Asking "Were you forced to buy the game?" is silly and adds nothing to any debate.

1. It is just a game but the vendor has no right to say that in the face of customer complaints (to be fair SI have not said it)

2. For me the game is playable but only in key highlights mode and then only if I ignore the offending stats (dribbles, through balls, shots off target) which is not the way many wish to play. Just because a game doesnt crash every session does not mean it can be called a "robust build" although in that respect FM13 is stable.

3. SI do fix things as soon as they can and Paul C seems generally concerned the way the patching has gone (5 day build ME specific patch releases will be a thing of the past I suspect in future)

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Saying "you were not forced to buy the game " is silly and adds nothing to any debate.

1. It is just a game but the vendor has no right to say that in the face of customer complaints (to be fair SI have not said it)

2. For me the game is playable but only in key highlights mode and then only if I ignore the offending stats (dribbles, through balls, shots off target) which is not the way many wish to play. Just because a game doesnt crash every session does not mean it can be called a "robust build" although in that respect FM13 is stable.

3. SI do fix things as soon as they can and Paul C seems generally concerned the way the patching has gone (5 day build ME specific patch releases will be a thing of the past I suspect in future)

I agree that it probably didn't add much to the debate, but my over-arching point is that people are going way overboard with the way in which they convey their frustrations.

I also think that to suggest that the current build of FM13 isn't unplayable solely because it "doesn't crash every session" is a bit laden with hyperbole.

Above all, I agree with point 3, and the underlying factors which have necessitated these knee-jerk patches.

It does feel as if the game had to be released according to schedule; all of the ME versions to date have played acceptably for me but there are clearly issues remaining. Perhaps the depth of testing for future releases will be extended, or the way in which the word BETA is used will be given greater clarity.

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With the overpowered wing play in this latest patch (most of the goals I see come from crosses from the wing, it doesn't matter what I do I cant seem to get my central attacking midfielders to contribute) I am glad that I have taken the decision to leave my long term save alone until the final patch. There are loads of long shots and some of the play is comical both in some of the goals Ive scored and conceded. I dont look at the game and think "Yeah that happened because I chose to put pressure on their midfield, or I stretched their backline and we managed to take advantage". It just all seems random and unconnected in any way. I generally see the same type of goals ie Free kick which isnt cleared properly, penalties, cross from the wing/fullback to unmarked player in the box.

I appreciate that its not laziness from SIs point of view and I do belive they are trying their hardest to solve this problem. I mean, thinking about it logically if they leave an unstable match engine in this version of the game then FM14 sales will suffer for it and that doesn't benefit anyone. You know, when I was getting beat by smaller teams on the previous patches, it was annoying as hell but making certain changes felt like they actually made a difference, for better or for worse. The defending was a bit embarrassing and a source of a lot of angst but with this latest patch it seems like everything has to go through the wings or the players will shoot from ridiculous distances.

I hope they fix it and to be fair they have a good track record of eventually getting it right but I still feel a bit conned that I have paid £30 for a "potentially" good game rather than something closer to the finished article. I, for one, will be slightly more skeptical come next years launch and Im sure there are others who will be a little more cautious when picking up the game after this years experience.

Still, I remain hopeful that Paul and the guys can deliver the goods before the final patch, so hopefully in the coming months we can all enjoy a more stable ME

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Same here, and it 's only because we all love the game.

My current save is going well, and I can live with the bugs as they aren't overly prevalent for me (I only watch key highlights!)

The way the updates and hotfixes have changed the ME show just how much of a ball ache it must be to adjust the code, it isn't something I would want to try myself.

SI are under huge pressure with the likes of this forum, the instant updates on Steam, and an increasing "feedback" culture.

Imagine going to work, doing something, and then seeing hordes of people you don't know posting this, that, and the other about their perception of what you have tried to do?

Doesn't matter if you are a mechanic, a lawyer, if you flip burgers or are the Prime Minister - that's a load of pressure and it must be hard to deflect the over zealous grumbles.

This is just what happens everywhere in every part of the world, whatever the job you're hired for. You don't think in the factory I work in the pressure is lesser!

When we send to our customers a broken or flawed product, they give it back to us, send a delegation to check how was possible the product overrode the quality process and ask for a reduction of prices if we want them to keep being our customers. Now, even if true, this is a pure exaggeration applied to FM, I know this.

But I can't accept statements like "we have to accept this because it's a transition year". Sorry Kriss, i respect you really much for what you're doing here and for your composure (must be surely 18 at least! :D) on replying to us, but we are really disappointed (i'm trying to be the more diplomatic I can). And again i have to put aside the game, last time I had to do it for 3 months because of annoying runtime errors, this year because of an unenjoyable game. So I paid for game that I don't play. My choice to purchase it, my bad.

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I agree that it probably didn't add much to the debate, but my over-arching point is that people are going way overboard with the way in which they convey their frustrations.

I also think that to suggest that the current build of FM13 isn't unplayable solely because it "doesn't crash every session" is a bit laden with hyperbole.

Above all, I agree with point 3, and the underlying factors which have necessitated these knee-jerk patches.

It does feel as if the game had to be released according to schedule; all of the ME versions to date have played acceptably for me but there are clearly issues remaining. Perhaps the depth of testing for future releases will be extended, or the way in which the word BETA is used will be given greater clarity.

Agree, generally. My key highlights only solution to poor stat ratios will suit very few I fear. Sadly now any 30 yard goal or Arsenals IRL collection of high scoring games or any other possible but improbable happening in game is seen instantly as a "bug", whereas only repeated occurences should be treated thus.

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.....And again i have to put aside the game, last time I had to do it for 3 months because of annoying runtime errors, this year because on unenjoyable game. So I paid for game that I don't play. My choice to purchase it, my bad.

Buy FM14 in 2014, clues in the title; SI are cryptically telling us something by using 2013 for this version when it's ready in 2013. You've been caught out twice now....Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....and all that.

I can resolve 90% of people's frustrations here if they follow my advice. :D Every year. Buy the game in March. It's so easy.

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Sorry Kriss, i respect you really much for what you're doing here and for your composure (must be surely 18 at least! :D) on replying to us, but we are really disappointed (i'm trying to be the more diplomatic I can). And again i have to put aside a game, last time I had to do it for 3 months because of annoying runtime errors, this year because on unenjoyable game. So I paid for game that I don't play. My choice to purchase it, my bad.

I fully understand, but to many of us FM is actually more than just a game, so we're probably more tolerant when the wheels seem to come off :) but I've put aside many allegedly good games in my time and never gone back to them (Civ 5 :mad:) FM has a fatal attraction.

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This is just what happens everywhere in every part of the world, whatever the job you're hired for. You don't think in the factory I work in the pressure is lesser!

When we send to our customers a broken or flawed product, they give it back to us, send a delegation to check how was possible the product overrode the quality process and ask for a reduction of prices if we want them to keep being our customers. Now, even if true, this is a pure exaggeration applied to FM, I know this.

You have a different job to me then!

I can calmly deliver or sign off pieces of work, happy in the knowledge that I won't instantaneously receive a load of conflicting praise / criticism from thousand's of people I don't know.

I will happily know that any attempts I subsequently make to remedy any issues with the initial delivery won't go through the same cycle of open vitriol.

Yes, SI are there to be shot at as the makers of the finest football simulation game of the past 20 years, but let's at least shoot in a targeted manner, not just with a scatter of machine-gun fire.

Kriss - that's the first warfare reference, do I win the prize for originality?

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Feels like Paul C has been picking at the knit of a jumper (with his ME fiddling), with good intentions, so far. At least he hasnt cut off the sleeves and told us to make do with a tank-top (metaphorically speaking)

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You have a different job to me then!

Yes, SI are there to be shot at as the makers of the finest football simulation game of the past 20 years, but let's at least shoot in a targeted manner, not just with a scatter of machine-gun fire.

Kriss - that's the first warfare reference, do I win the prize for originality?

I always thought The Manager was a better game actually :) Hey, no arguments on my manner so far, I'm a good guy!

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You have a different job to me then!

I can calmly deliver or sign off pieces of work, happy in the knowledge that I won't instantaneously receive a load of conflicting praise / criticism from thousand's of people I don't know.

I will happily know that any attempts I subsequently make to remedy any issues with the initial delivery won't go through the same cycle of open vitriol.

Yes, SI are there to be shot at as the makers of the finest football simulation game of the past 20 years, but let's at least shoot in a targeted manner, not just with a scatter of machine-gun fire.

Kriss - that's the first warfare reference, do I win the prize for originality?

Considering the nature of this thread it's amazing it's taken this long :D I'll get you a free copy of FM12 just as soon as I can :p

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Considering the nature of this thread it's amazing it's taken this long :D I'll get you a free copy of FM12 just as soon as I can :p

That would just be a cue for somebody to say "FM12 was better anyway......!"

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That would just be a cue for somebody to say "FM12 was better anyway......!"

Tongue was firmly in cheek :)

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I really liked the last ME...

Is there any way of rolling back? I have the game through steam...

No I'm afraid not, it's onwards and upwards only.

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Onwards, but perhaps not upwards ...

Shame, I was really enjoying this release. Suppose its for the best FM takes up way too much time anyway!!

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While this scenario does happen too often, it's important to keep in mind that players tackle too frequently already. In reality, fullbacks will only attempt to tackle a quickly moving winger in this area (and risk a free kick in a very dangerous area) if they're desperate (e.g., there's a 1v1/2v2/etc. situation in the box) or the winger is making some ridiculously heavy touches. Instead, fullbacks should be more adept at actually blocking the cross as well as forcing the winger to dribble over the touchline/into the corner. Cross accuracy when a defender is running parallel with an attacking player should also be more significantly affected by the attacking player's Composure.

It's nice in theory, everything you said. But sadly wingers starting on their run are unstoppable in this game. So talking about what course of action can the defender take is futile. Accuracy and composure, i've had 3rd Scottish divisionwingers bend it better than Beckham every time. And if you look at their stats you would laugh...Defensemen are always blind to see the free winger which comes on the opposite side. It kind of reminds me of a regular occurrence in FM12 where corners were at times impossible to defend as there was an unmarked player to score.

Don't misunderstand i don't mind getting scored on, but having this crap happen almost all the time is stupid. And maybe if i'm mistaking i accept an advice on how to defend the situation. Until then i've sold my fullbacks, invested in some decent centre backs and try to outscore the opponent. But this should be fixed or toned down, i don't know i'm not a developer just an avid old player.

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Or onwards and backwards as the case is !

Two steps forward and one back get's you there in the end :)

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Is there anyway that you can 'go back' to a previous patch?

Not officially and we certainly don't recommend any ad hoc methods.

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Is there anyway that you can 'go back' to a previous patch?

It's been said several times... There isn't a possibility to go back to a previous patch.

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There is actually, it's called System restore, just pick a date before the 19th.

Like many here I certainly won't be buying the game upon its release next year, if I buy it at all.

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It's nice in theory, everything you said. But sadly wingers starting on their run are unstoppable in this game. So talking about what course of action can the defender take is futile. Accuracy and composure, i've had 3rd Scottish divisionwingers bend it better than Beckham every time. And if you look at their stats you would laugh...Defensemen are always blind to see the free winger which comes on the opposite side. It kind of reminds me of a regular occurrence in FM12 where corners were at times impossible to defend as there was an unmarked player to score.

Don't misunderstand i don't mind getting scored on, but having this crap happen almost all the time is stupid. And maybe if i'm mistaking i accept an advice on how to defend the situation. Until then i've sold my fullbacks, invested in some decent centre backs and try to outscore the opponent. But this should be fixed or toned down, i don't know i'm not a developer just an avid old player.

I don't think more rational defensive behavior and effective containment on the flanks would be that hard to code. I think the problem is that, at the moment, a lot of it would have to be invisible, and unless there was an accompanying animation upgrade for the 3d match engine, lots of people would get upset about their "stupid wingers" and "unbelievably poor ball control" if SI tried to integrate more defensive behavior beyond sliding tackles.

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My two bobs worth ...

I have bought games that were "broken." On many occasions. Many of them are those sports sims with graphics engines ten times as complex as the one here. And on those occasions, you almost never get a fully patched game. The two companies I think are shining examples to the industry, in how to react to what the fans want, are our friends here at SI and the guys at Creative, who make the Total War games. The best example from them is Empire, which went through a patching process ten times more torturous than this one is ever likely to be ... for a while that game was no more than a £40 door stop ... (You can now buy the fully polished, outstanding version for less than a tenner, with all the DLC included ...) In the end, it was outstanding, and with fan modifications, it was better than just about any game which has ever been released.

None of that would have happened had they given up on release date. They listened, they acted, and for that everyone who bought the game was glad. It made buying Shogun much easier.

Everyone would love it if game designers released finished products. Many of them don't. One company, already named on this forum a few times, is notorious for it. To say they treat customers with contempt is an under statement, and I long since ceased buying what they're selling until I know - from the forums - that it's as good as it could be.

The team at SI don't treat the fans with contempt. They are the fans. They worked all the way to the wire at Xmas to get us the patch out ... it's a shame it was such a disaster.

Why was it a disaster? Well the one prior to it made some mistakes, like the amount of crazy, mazy runs. I actually liked the notion of that ... it'd been a long time since I saw a player in one of my teams actually run at a defence and do serious damage. In toning it down or taking it out, what happened was even more horrible than watching a bit part midfielder beat an entire team before hitting the ball miles by ... now the central midfield is almost completely ineffective. Almost nothing comes from the middle of the park. My central midfield has about ten assists between the lot of them ... the rest of the goals come from out wide, from the wingers and the full-backs.

Worse still, and horror of horrors, because it's a tactic I used ... the almost complete absence of the through ball .... I say almost complete absence because I'm flicking between writing this and watching a game, and as I just went back to the match young Marcus Fraser launched a most wonderful ball through to young Tony Watt - a genuine high over the top wonder - who ran onto it, chested it down and volleyed it home. A glorious sight to see, because it's now all too rare ...

I built teams based on that technique. My all-conquering Bayern Munich team from FM2011 won a Champions League thanks to a fantastic over-the-top through ball ... A deep lying playmaker, a supporting target man, and a pacy striker used to be a devastating combination, with through-balls and knock-ons ripping through defences ... but playing the ball up the middle rarely benefits you at all now ... everything comes from out wide.

James Forrest is a sensation out there now, and whilst it's welcome, it's not right that one player has contributed nearly half of all assists, and the rest are split between other wide men, and the occasional one from a striker. What happened to Scott Brown and Joe Ledley and Kayal adding another dozen? Why is the central midfield so inefficient?

I'll tell you how ineffecient they are. During a cup semi final, Scott Brown recieved the ball just outside the penalty box. There was a striker in the middle, waiting for the pass. Instead, Brown turned and played it backwards ... this was with ten to go, and a goal down. No willingness to play a risky pass ... and is that what's changed here? Have the central midfielders been made over cautious?

90% of us, but for a very, very few, do appreciate the enormous efforts SI are making in getting this game to the standard we want. The first ME was universally panned as awful (I still used it haha), and every incarnation has been better than the last. This one is sooooo damned close ... and that's what's so damned frustrating. Because when it works - as it worked in the game just finished, with that wonderful pass, run and shot - it's closer to real football than anything you'll see from a certain games company that thinks it invented the game.

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I don't think more rational defensive behavior and effective containment on the flanks would be that hard to code. I think the problem is that, at the moment, a lot of it would have to be invisible, and unless there was an accompanying animation upgrade for the 3d match engine, lots of people would get upset about their "stupid wingers" and "unbelievably poor ball control" if SI tried to integrate more defensive behavior beyond sliding tackles.

Well cross blocking for example doesn't even need an animation. A defender simply being hit by the ball is good enough to visualize something that is meant to be a leg stuck out or a body movement towards the ball. At the moment it's really frustrating seeing wingers run their angles down and still getting a cross in that almost touches the motionless full back as it flies across the box to an unmarked player at the far post. Beyond tackling the wingers before they get up to speed there is simply no way of consistently stopping a cross and that is something that should be looked at in my opinion.

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My two bobs worth ...

I have bought games that were "broken." On many occasions. Many of them are those sports sims with graphics engines ten times as complex as the one here. And on those occasions, you almost never get a fully patched game. The two companies I think are shining examples to the industry, in how to react to what the fans want, are our friends here at SI and the guys at Creative, who make the Total War games. The best example from them is Empire, which went through a patching process ten times more torturous than this one is ever likely to be ... for a while that game was no more than a £40 door stop ... (You can now buy the fully polished, outstanding version for less than a tenner, with all the DLC included ...) In the end, it was outstanding, and with fan modifications, it was better than just about any game which has ever been released.

None of that would have happened had they given up on release date. They listened, they acted, and for that everyone who bought the game was glad. It made buying Shogun much easier.

Everyone would love it if game designers released finished products. Many of them don't. One company, already named on this forum a few times, is notorious for it. To say they treat customers with contempt is an under statement, and I long since ceased buying what they're selling until I know - from the forums - that it's as good as it could be.

The team at SI don't treat the fans with contempt. They are the fans. They worked all the way to the wire at Xmas to get us the patch out ... it's a shame it was such a disaster.

Why was it a disaster? Well the one prior to it made some mistakes, like the amount of crazy, mazy runs. I actually liked the notion of that ... it'd been a long time since I saw a player in one of my teams actually run at a defence and do serious damage. In toning it down or taking it out, what happened was even more horrible than watching a bit part midfielder beat an entire team before hitting the ball miles by ... now the central midfield is almost completely ineffective. Almost nothing comes from the middle of the park. My central midfield has about ten assists between the lot of them ... the rest of the goals come from out wide, from the wingers and the full-backs.

Worse still, and horror of horrors, because it's a tactic I used ... the almost complete absence of the through ball .... I say almost complete absence because I'm flicking between writing this and watching a game, and as I just went back to the match young Marcus Fraser launched a most wonderful ball through to young Tony Watt - a genuine high over the top wonder - who ran onto it, chested it down and volleyed it home. A glorious sight to see, because it's now all too rare ...

I built teams based on that technique. My all-conquering Bayern Munich team from FM2011 won a Champions League thanks to a fantastic over-the-top through ball ... A deep lying playmaker, a supporting target man, and a pacy striker used to be a devastating combination, with through-balls and knock-ons ripping through defences ... but playing the ball up the middle rarely benefits you at all now ... everything comes from out wide.

James Forrest is a sensation out there now, and whilst it's welcome, it's not right that one player has contributed nearly half of all assists, and the rest are split between other wide men, and the occasional one from a striker. What happened to Scott Brown and Joe Ledley and Kayal adding another dozen? Why is the central midfield so inefficient?

I'll tell you how ineffecient they are. During a cup semi final, Scott Brown recieved the ball just outside the penalty box. There was a striker in the middle, waiting for the pass. Instead, Brown turned and played it backwards ... this was with ten to go, and a goal down. No willingness to play a risky pass ... and is that what's changed here? Have the central midfielders been made over cautious?

90% of us, but for a very, very few, do appreciate the enormous efforts SI are making in getting this game to the standard we want. The first ME was universally panned as awful (I still used it haha), and every incarnation has been better than the last. This one is sooooo damned close ... and that's what's so damned frustrating. Because when it works - as it worked in the game just finished, with that wonderful pass, run and shot - it's closer to real football than anything you'll see from a certain games company that thinks it invented the game.

Well said mate.:thup:

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