4-4-2 diamond

[bendhondt]

Hi guys,

This is the 1st time I come on the FM13 tactic forum. I didn't want to come here to find "magic" tactic. I wanted to create and find one by myself. And I did it !

I have took a small team in the 3rd division (national) in France : Amiens. There is no stars. Only big boys for every positions who can't make 3 passes in a row. But after few poor games, I found the way to win : a 4-4-2 in losange (diamond).

I wanted to try this tactic from the begining because the players I had in this poor team. I tried a flat 4-4-2 during 2 friendly games and it was very bad : I do think a player in DM position is very important.

Because with a diamond tactic mean no wingers, I tried to play narrow with pass through the middle. These 2 points were the 2 principal reasons of why it was not working. I changed to played wide and mixed passes.

It changed lot of things : the balance of my team was better. The occupation of the field was 100% better.

I use 2 mentalities depending of what happen during the game : I usually start with Attack and change to counter. I use counter even sometime when I lose. It give more confidence to my midfield.

About the differents roles I give to my players, I found a good balance : About the RB and LB, one will have an offensive role (do not confuse with the mentality) and the other will be more in defence. The side with the offencive back winger will have a midfield who defend more (for me, this is the right side). Like that, he will cover the defender. Plus 1 MO who will assist the 2 strikers.

Here my complete tactic with the roles :

----------------------------GK (def)

--------FB (supp)---CD (def)---CD (def)---WB (supp)

-----------------------DM (def)

------------DLP (Supp)------BBM (supp)

-----------------------AM (supp / att*)

---------------DLF (att)------CF (att)

Mentality : Attack / Counter*

Style : balanced

Defensive line : Normal (slot just before Deep)

Width : wide (2 or 3 slot from full wide)

Tempo : Normal or little bit slow (depending of the technic of your guys. Mine were poor at the begining)

Time wasting : sometime : They can recover because I ask my players a lot of pressing)

Focus passing : mixed

Counter attack : No (I leave it grey like that, when I change the mentality to counter, it become yes)

Play offside : yes

* depend of what happen during the match or the oppenent.

I think this is a very balanced tactic. it works very well for me. And I am sure it can be good for you too. Maybe you will have to make some light change but it can give you some success : I am now in league 1 (2 promotions in row). I do not perform very well in cups because I use a team B, but I found something for these competitions : the best is to use the COUNTER mentality whatever the team you play against (even small teams).

Last thing I would like to tell is : Forgive my poor english. I hope it been wrote clear enough for you !

If you have questions or tips, please feel free ! :-)

I am looking forward to hearing from you all in that thread.

Ben

[ucant]

yes. I'm playing with diamond too and my players do it much better with counter mentality.

[wez007]

You really need to make space, problem i had with the 41212 narrow (its not actually the diamond btw, i beleive the diamond has two wide men) is players running into the same space and muddling the play.

If anyone else was attempting this formation Id suggest dropping deeper, wider and making sure you have a good break in mentailty/roles to get players space. Have a look at the avg positions in the analysis tab or pause the game here and then to see where the midfeild men sit and not on top of each other. Ive spent hours trying to get my 4222 box midfeild from creating its own space and playing free flowing football, its finally coming together after hardwork.

Look for mixing up the roles, so if your playing a DLF on the left side make sure the AMC or MLC isnt running into same channels etc

[tommonufc]

You really need to make space, problem i had with the 41212 narrow (its not actually the diamond btw, i beleive the diamond has two wide men) is players running into the same space and muddling the play.

If anyone else was attempting this formation Id suggest dropping deeper, wider and making sure you have a good break in mentailty/roles to get players space. Have a look at the avg positions in the analysis tab or pause the game here and then to see where the midfeild men sit and not on top of each other. Ive spent hours trying to get my 4222 box midfeild from creating its own space and playing free flowing football, its finally coming together after hardwork.

Look for mixing up the roles, so if your playing a DLF on the left side make sure the AMC or MLC isnt running into same channels etc

Posted these images in my thread on the midfield diamond - and I would strongly argue that a narrow four is the definition of a diamond.

Players running into each others space and 'muddling the play' will only happen when you've a poorly constructed midfield four. For example having a 1-2-1 of DLP(s) - DLP(d), ADP(a) - TQ. Each of these four would be all looking to occupy the same positions, as they are in essence all set up to be playmakers - that is when it will become 'muddled'. Conversely if you have a set up akin to Manchester United below, I would have Wayne Rooney set up as a TQ, Kagawa and Cleverly set up as B2B, and Carrick as a DM(s) at the base. Here you have a well constructed four, that will not run into each others space. Cleverly and Kagawa will run the channels, as seen in the second image - Kagawa has moved into a winger/wide midfield position.

I've never experienced or played with the diamond you speak of, a wide diamond - but I'd instantly think that a narrow diamond would prove to much more efficient, as you are able to instruct the '2' to move wide in positions, where as you are unable to instruct your wide midfielders to tuck in and defend the center.

Defensively I'd consider it to be far too open when pressing. Your '1' placed in the AMC, once play has passed, will be out of the game, and the wrong side of play when pressing. This then leaves you a 2-1 to press with in your midfield. If played against a 4-2-3-1, the opponents '2' has no direct opponent for them to be pressed by, due to your '2' being in wider areas. I could explain further in terms of your DM then pressing the opponents midfield pairing, thus leaving the AMC free - but I'm probably boring you.

I struggle to think of any side in top level football playing a 4-4-2 in such a regimented fashion that it could be seen to be a wide diamond. A normal 4-4-2 with an supporting/defensive pairing could be seen the nearest construct, but even then you are not having your more attack minded central midfield the wrong side of the ball when defending - you will want him to move back in front of the play - with the wide midfielders tucking in. Only in attack would a 4-4-2 become a wide diamond, but even then it would have a similar make up of a narrow diamond, if your wide midfielders are tucking inside to allow your full backs to advance.

In short - Narrow Diamond > wide diamond.

[wez007]

Tommo, if you check the tactic creator a 442 diamond is a wide midfield not what the OP stated. There are two diamond formations according to FM, both with DM, Wide and an AMC. Was just pointing that out to him rather than getting into too much detail. Nice detail though

But yeah your probably right, both work a diamond effect, even if the narrow one is a squashed up one at that

[wez007]

----------------------------GK (def)

--------FB (supp)---CD (def)---CD (def)---WB (supp)

-----------------------DM (def)

------------DLP (Supp)------BBM (supp)

-----------------------AM (supp / att*)

---------------DLF (att)------CF (att)

I just dont see this working well, maybe its just me . A DLP dropping into space of the DM maybe? And a DLF on attack?

If it were me Id have the DLF on support, an mrc as bbm or attacking mc attacking the channels the left by the DLF. The amc attack getting into space in the middle behind the DLF. Then ADV forward working the channels, looking to get on through balls, either opening space with AMC, feeding off his through balls or playing one twos with him.

Your fullback DR is also support so you dont really have any attacking on the right side, its a bit lopsided, all attacking and running into space (if there is any left) down the left side. Where as the right side they are a little static.

Its what i would do..... not to say its right by any means

[tommonufc]

----------------------------GK (def)

--------FB (supp)---CD (def)---CD (def)---WB (supp)

-----------------------DM (def)

------------DLP (Supp)------BBM (supp)

-----------------------AM (supp / att*)

---------------DLF (att)------CF (att)

I just dont see this working well, maybe its just me . A DLP dropping into space of the DM maybe? And a DLF on attack?

If it were me Id have the DLF on support, an mrc as bbm or attacking mc attacking the channels the left by the DLF. The amc attack getting into space in the middle behind the DLF. Then ADV forward working the channels, looking to get on through balls, either opening space with AMC, feeding off his through balls or playing one twos with him.

Your fullback DR is also support so you dont really have any attacking on the right side, its a bit lopsided, all attacking and running into space (if there is any left) down the left side. Where as the right side they are a little static.

Its what i would do..... not to say its right by any means

Instead of having a player dropping into the space of another, in a DLP being played in the '2', have him played as the base of the diamond.

I like setting up the two as two basic supporting midfielders. Here the players I have will determine how they play this role in terms of their ppms, and the effectiveness of thier attributes. For example, if I play Mario Gotze, he'll push forward and work the channels - where as Joe Allen would play a more refined role, coming deep now and again, working forward, playing simple passes.

Sometimes the simplicity of just basic central midfielders can be overlooked. In this case you have four positions to fill, and without using the basic midfielder things are being complicated.

[tommonufc]

Have had these images on my computer for a couple of weeks. They were meant for my thread on the a diamond, but since that fell short of the anticipated interest I didn't post them. Anywhere here they are..

This one shows the field will divided up into five lateral zones. This will run true throughout any formation you want to field, whether it be an inside forward/wing back combination working differing zones or this narrow midfield four set-up that needs width to be created from the center of the pitch.

The out and out width should be provided by the full backs. (green boxes) Whilst play will be centered through the middle of the pitch, due to the nature of the shape, these players should be able to offer passing options from inside to out.

In the center of midfield you will have the base of the four instructed to stay central, and receive passes (blue box) from central areas and wide areas inside. Likewise with the tip of the diamond. I have found to be best effective playing with a player that can play the TQ. role brilliantly, with high off the ball attributes and a ppm of comes deep to get ball. I want him to stay central and work space within the three central zones (red box).

Your width in the middle third will be supported by the '2' in midfield. Around the half way line, the full backs or wing backs will be already occupying the space in the wide zones, so there will be no space for these midfield '2' to move wide. But when in the attacking third, or breaking on a side, you want these two to be comfortable with the ball outwide, running with the ball and ideally able to beat a full back.

Up front, I change the wide settings of a poacher to stay central, and not move into channels. This allows space, in this instance on the left for the left cm to move wide into ahead of the full back, or space for the wing back to run into. I'll have a deep lying forward to work the right hand channel, and work the space in front of the back four that a TQ will create.

This image shows the effectiveness I found a combination of a player suited to the Trequartista role. The player here won't break forward into the areas occupied by the front two or wide areas occupied firstly by the full/wing backs, and supporting central midfield and deep lying forward. You've said that the narrow can see play 'muddled', and to paraphrase you, you've suggest that playing with too many players in this area can see it become congested.

I thought this, and had trouble with this when I first starting playing this shape. I've highlighted two zones that the respective players start in - the TQ. starting in the purple zone, with the midfield '2' starting in the yellow zone. It's a simple movement, but one that can draw oppositions defensive midfielders out of position and generally create space in front of a backline. The TQ will drop deep, with the midfield two moving ahead into vacated space. By playing a TQ. that will drop deep by nature, your getting the best from a DLF as well. If you are having an attacking AM in this position I've found that your having the DLF come back at the same time the the AM is pushing forward - and if they aren't too clever in regard to their off the ball movement your essentially have them both running into each other and bashing heads.

[Seagullfan]

Have won 2 titles in lower league Italy using the narrow diamond. Had an AMC on attack with a DLF and poacher up top. Had a DLP support and CM attack in midfield. The DLP would sit in position spraying balls around, the AMC would drive into the space as the DLF dropped back and the CM attack would be on the same side as the Poacher driving forward.

It seemed to work ok

[tommonufc]

Here is another image I had lined up for my thread, but will post it up in here as the traffic will be higher, so might as well place it here.

Basically outlining the virtues of having a deep lying playmaker at the base, in conjunction with the previously outlined TQ. at the tip with the supporting midfield two.

Pretty self explanatory once you can work out the melee of arrows and lines. The TQ. will drop deep towards the DLP - having the two points of the diamond close in. This creates space for the central midfielders to move into, as well as the deep lying forward. This then opens up passing options for your deep lying playmaker to pass into.

[wez007]

Good analysis here Tommo. Im looking at moving from box to this as its a bit more flex.

Do you find its a good tactic against 442? Its the formation that kills me most with a narrow tactic

[Seagullfan]

The great thing against the 4-4-2 is that you can dominate the middle of the park and be strong between the lines. The FB/WB's can also be key and need to have good stamina to get up and down the flanks to provide the width

[wez007]

Cool, going to test a few games now. Cheers

[wez007]

Seagull, what strat/phy do you use out of interest?

[james_wilko]

Like Tommo I've got a diamond formation with Newcastle, but I imagine our players are quite different.

I've had two versions of it, in our first season we used a counter tactic with an Anchor Man holding in front of the back four. Since then it's changed to an attack strategy with a deep lying play maker on defend. He doesn't move far forward (like the anchor man) but he delivers some cracking passes from that deeper position. I have the team set to fluid, with the team encouraged to roam. As you lack wide men this should make up for that.

In front of the DM I have two box to box midfielders. These two have to be complete players as they'll be responsible for a lot of your play, creating and scoring goals as well as the defensive side. A little further up is a standard Attacking Mid on attack duty. He's your main creator, mine (Ben Arfa) had over 30 assists in the first season and is continuing that form on this season. I thought about a Trequarista, but wasn't happy with a lazy player in what was initially a hard working counter attacking team. It could change now, but with HBA playing so well as he is, I've had no reason to change

The front two is dependent on what you have. I have Cisse on the left as a poacher, and Demba Ba on the right as a target man - attack. It's resulted in a lot of goals between them, with neither really excelling over the other. But, if your two strikers are Giuseppe Rossi and Lionel Messi, don't use one as a target man as I doubt it'll work.

[Seagullfan]

I was using fluid/defensive. I found that with my team we created more chances when playing defensive rather than attacking. Defensive actually is a lot more attacking than it suggests. I tried various philosophies but nothing could touch fluid which always performed best. Also I had a fantastic defensive record but I put this down mainly to having 2 DC's that were excellent in the air as with this tactic you will get a lot of crosses into your box as the wings are the weaker areas.

[wez007]

Nice one both, some useful tips there

Ive got a similar setup to Tommo but for some reason i find the DLP on top of of the MCR. So will tweak around a bit.

[Seagullfan]

Nice one both, some useful tips there

Ive got a similar setup to Tommo but for some reason i find the DLP on top of of the MCR. So will tweak around a bit.

I used a DMC support in front of the back 4 and a DLP at left midfield with either a BWM/B2B/MC on support in right midfield. As the DLP tended to sit then when the DMC came forward he would take the space left by the advancement or the right midfielder

[wez007]

The dlp on support ?

[Seagullfan]

Yes to sit and thread balls with the occasional run forward with the ball. I did take off hold up ball as he was getting caught in possession at times