Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[Cleon]

I am now officially bored, playing on commentary without slider changes or shouts. Maybe one change at halftime. Thats about it. Man this thread has become a giant help fix the tactic thread

I've played 6 seasons using a 3142 and only used shouts 3 times in that whole time. The only change I make is strategy depending on how the game is going. But 95% of the time I just stay on control.

That's why player development is so important for me, to cure the boredom. But even that isn't enough.

[mikcheck]

Thank you Cleon

[Cleon]

Thank you Cleon

You're welcome mate

[Azza2306]

Hi Cleon

I have used your tips from this post with a lot of success. I want to change from 4-1-2-2-1 to a 4-2-3-1. Was after some advise on the roles you would set. I have tried Triquestria-support behind advance forward-attack and in the middle a DLP-Defend with AP-support. It was ok but would like your thoughts.

Cheers

Sorry Cleon, I will post ascreen shot of my team if someone can let me know how to do it.

Cheers

[waynehead]

Now this is more of a future plan rather than something that I’ve already actioned. I wanted to play a 4231 with 3 AMC’s all with attacking roles and two CMD’s, but my sensible side tells me that my team will be left far to open and full backs won’t track. What mix of roles would you suggest for the 3 AM’s who would be playing behind Cavani. The 3 are Dzagoev left AMC Hamsik Central AMC and Adryan Right AMC. Cheers

[Gee_Simpson]

When a counter attack situation arose yes. The counter attack option (the check box) overrides all the mentality and tempo settings when the criteria for the counter is in proccess for the duration of move.

Ok, thanks

[Andy1938UK]

First I'd like to add my thanks for a great thread which has come at a fortuitous time for me. I have a challenge, with my son, to see who can achieve the best results with Tottenham over 5 seasons. We have a spreadsheet which allocates points for each competition and, despite finishing second and winning the Capital One Cup, I'm 20 points behind.

Last year I played with a 4-2-2-2 formation with two wingers and a 4-1-2-2-1 formation like yours for matches where we were not favourites. My 4-1-2-2-1 formation was much less adventurous than yours but I'll try to follow your example this year.

My question is - You say that you use the same formation all season (and presumably using different shouts for different games). I have found that, if I stick to the same formation, the AI catches on and I end up with a run of 5 or 6 matches where I can't win unless I change formation. I usually get called "The Tinkerer" but it seems to work. What is you opinion.

[mixmkz]

With the new patch, it seems players are more tackle happy, anyone notice that players with hold up ball instruction / trait gets tackled and loses the ball a whole lot? It's getting to the point where I have my CM-D manually set to not hold up ball because he gets tackled when the team is trying to work the ball into the box and as a result most of the team is caught out of position on the counter.

[Rashidi]

I have a challenge, with my son, to see who can achieve the best results with Tottenham over 5 seasons. We have a spreadsheet which allocates points for each competition and, despite finishing second and winning the Capital One Cup, I'm 20 points behind.

I got to this part and just had to comment....My son is 13, his first time playing the game, and he whips my hide by beating me in the Dafuge Challenge. He doesn't even come to the forums, I am so glad.

You can stick to the same formation all season long, there should be no reason why you can't. The AI doesn't catch on and thats a myth. Believe me I have tried for years to get SI to accept a "learning AI' one that adapts to my tactics, I even offered to help make the engine a lot harder than it is, but no luck thus far. What the AI does is base its formations around a "set" each club has. In most cases its based loosely around a managers "style" in the club. You don't need to be a tinkerer to win at this game, playing as a tinkerer actually hinders you more than it helps you.

Tinkering leads to: Uncertainty, blending issues and most importantly some formations require a totally different style, for example moving from a 532 to a 4231. There are times when you can tinker and these should be set around a system of play where you can swap players roles around. For example you could play a 41221 which deploys AMs and a DM. And then if you feel like changing things around and taking bigger risks you could move to a 4231 or a 4411...these formations allow you to do that, but making players play these formations requires a lot of work.

You need to train players to play multiple roles and thats something a lot of people fail to do. I have an ML who can play as an AML and an AMC, cos thats how my club started out, in the last two seasons I've found that I can stick to just one formation and just change "strategy" when I need to and use minimal shouts, in fact I use only 1 shout "work ball into box". And I choose to do that simply because it keeps balls on the ground and reduces long shots..and I do that some of the time.

What you need to do is

a. Identify a formation that works for you, ie you understand its needs via players

b. Stick with the formation

c. Train your players to play in that formation and finally accept the need to get better players in (Better players do not = more expensive players)

You can beat your son, now he gets annoyed with me cos I play my games on commentary and laugh out loud.

[Rashidi]

With the new patch, it seems players are more tackle happy, anyone notice that players with hold up ball instruction / trait gets tackled and loses the ball a whole lot? It's getting to the point where I have my CM-D manually set to not hold up ball because he gets tackled when the team is trying to work the ball into the box and as a result most of the team is caught out of position on the counter.

I reckon the default choice for the holding player in all roles is to HUB, but I think that is wrong. While in theory it makes sense, you need to understand when a player should have it and when he shouldn't. He shouldn;t have it if he has low composure, and he doesnt need it, if there is someone close to him who can make the killer pass.

[Cleon]

Cheers rashidi for answering, means I don't have to now

Can't wait until I can play my kids on FM and have them teach me stuff.

[Rashidi]

Cheers rashidi for answering, means I don't have to now

Can't wait until I can play my kids on FM and have them teach me stuff.

No worries glad to help.

[Babak G]

Thanks Cleon (for confirming age is catching up with me)!

Just another question, you mentioned on another thread which I just cant locate now that you were playing a 3-1-4-2 formation of some kind that was evolving. The wide players are DW IIRC. How would a player such as Bale fit there?

[neilez2]

I'm having to have a proper re-think since the most recent patch.

Took Partick Thistle to 2nd in SPL in my 4th season and thus into Europa League.

Sold some of my most promising youngsters to give me money to develop club and squad but using same tactics that did me well, following the excellent advice from this thread after not playing FM since Fm 10, I now find myself 2nd bottom after being predicted to challenge for title.

Same issues are appearing with my Colombian national team as well.

I'll report back with any findings from what used to work to what doesn't work anymore.

[Cleon]

Thanks Cleon (for confirming age is catching up with me)!

Just another question, you mentioned on another thread which I just cant locate now that you were playing a 3-1-4-2 formation of some kind that was evolving. The wide players are DW IIRC. How would a player such as Bale fit there?

He'd be great, I've got someone who in terms of attributes is a lot simliar to Bale and he scores a lot and gets assists. Depending on who the opposition is I change it from DW to normal wingers if I feel the oppositions wide players don't pose a threat to me.

[Babak G]

He'd be great, I've got someone who in terms of attributes is a lot simliar to Bale and he scores a lot and gets assists. Depending on who the opposition is I change it from DW to normal wingers if I feel the oppositions wide players don't pose a threat to me.

What if you were a side like Bayern. Would players like Ribery/Robben somehow find their way into your side or would Lahm be more suited (if he's retrained)?

Ive always wondered about retraining players into other roles whereas in their normal role they're a 4 star + player but in the new role they're a 2 star player, is it simply black and white to suggest the player's overall ability and reputation (considering their best position) should not be taken into account when it comes to choosing between him and a specialist in that position who may have 2.5 stars, lets say?

[lewis999]

Cleon I just played Tottenham and I cannot handle Bale for the life of me. I just mean player's like Bale, fast, direct and good at dribbling. He just picks up the ball and runs at and past my players.

Do I hard tackle? Easy tackle?

Tight mark?

Close down?

Double up on him?

Basically what would you suggest?

I can easily accept that my player's just aren't good enough or he had an exceptional day and/or my player/s had a below par/poor day but I just want to be able to equip myself better than I currently am.

Would be appreciated.

[mixmkz]

I reckon the default choice for the holding player in all roles is to HUB, but I think that is wrong. While in theory it makes sense, you need to understand when a player should have it and when he shouldn't. He shouldn;t have it if he has low composure, and he doesnt need it, if there is someone close to him who can make the killer pass.

The guy I have for CM D is one of the best CM in the game with world class mental stats (regen, bought him for 50mm to replace Fellaini). What irks me with the patch is that with hold up the ball on, players "walk" with the ball at absolutely no rush and with pass open inviting to get tackled. Now that I manually set this to option to No its back to business as usual.

[Cleon]

What if you were a side like Bayern. Would players like Ribery/Robben somehow find their way into your side or would Lahm be more suited (if he's retrained)?

Ive always wondered about retraining players into other roles whereas in their normal role they're a 4 star + player but in the new role they're a 2 star player, is it simply black and white to suggest the player's overall ability and reputation (considering their best position) should not be taken into account when it comes to choosing between him and a specialist in that position who may have 2.5 stars, lets say?

I just go on stats and not rep/ability. If a player has the correct attributes for the role then I'll play them in that position.

[Cleon]

Cleon I just played Tottenham and I cannot handle Bale for the life of me. I just mean player's like Bale, fast, direct and good at dribbling. He just picks up the ball and runs at and past my players.

Do I hard tackle? Easy tackle?

Tight mark?

Close down?

Double up on him?

Basically what would you suggest?

I can easily accept that my player's just aren't good enough or he had an exceptional day and/or my player/s had a below par/poor day but I just want to be able to equip myself better than I currently am.

Would be appreciated.

I wouldn't tight mark him or hard tackle him if your players aren't capable of it because he'll just skin them time after time. What I'd do is specific man mark him with your own wide players so you double up on him and the wide players track him back. I'd also look at showing him onto his weaker foot.

[Cleon]

The guy I have for CM D is one of the best CM in the game with world class mental stats (regen, bought him for 50mm to replace Fellaini). What irks me with the patch is that with hold up the ball on, players "walk" with the ball at absolutely no rush and with pass open inviting to get tackled. Now that I manually set this to option to No its back to business as usual.

I've not experienced this to that extent. Sure they hold it up for a few seconds but that's it and there not getting the ball took off them. Are you sure the players don't have PPM's and that's whats costing them?

[silten]

I wouldn't tight mark him or hard tackle him if your players aren't capable of it because he'll just skin them time after time. What I'd do is specific man mark him with your own wide players so you double up on him and the wide players track him back. I'd also look at showing him onto his weaker foot.

This is similar to how I handled Bale in a recent match. I set individual instructions to never tight mark, easy tackle and show onto weaker foot. I selected my hardest working winger on that side of the pitch who would then have time to run back and assist my full back in shutting him down. The AI subbed him at half time

[Cleon]

This is similar to how I handled Bale in a recent match. I set individual instructions to never tight mark, easy tackle and show onto weaker foot. I selected my hardest working winger on that side of the pitch who would then have time to run back and assist my full back in shutting him down. The AI subbed him at half time

Something so simple yet effective

[Andy1938UK]

I think I'll try an experiment. I'll save the game twice as it is now (Nov 2013) and play the rest of the season with the 4-1-2-2-1 without changing and use my usual

tinkering with the other save. I don;t have much of a budget left but, if I do sign anybody, I'll try and get them in both games.

Had a look for a ball playing DC but can't see anyone better than Vertonghen.

[Rashidi]

This is similar to how I handled Bale in a recent match. I set individual instructions to never tight mark, easy tackle and show onto weaker foot. I selected my hardest working winger on that side of the pitch who would then have time to run back and assist my full back in shutting him down. The AI subbed him at half time

tight marking is possible but, he needs all the right attributes including concentration, acceleration and marking as well. It can't be done by all, but when its done well, its fraking brilliant

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi,

I have a little question, regarding my 451 formation. The question is related with the combo i'm using on the flanks.

On the left side, i'm using a wingback (attack duty) and a winger (attack duty).

The question: Because both players have instructions to cross from the line, will they conflict with each other?

[Cleon]

Hi,

I have a little question, regarding my 451 formation. The question is related with the combo i'm using on the flanks.

On the left side, i'm using a wingback (attack duty) and a winger (attack duty).

The question: Because both players have instructions to cross from the line, will they conflict with each other?

It shouldn't do no. You might find that they don't work as a team all the time though unless they have good teamwork etc.

[Keyzer Soze]

It shouldn't do no. You might find that they don't work as a team all the time though unless they have good teamwork etc.

Why is that? Because the attack duty?

[Cleon]

Why is that? Because the attack duty?

Well the WB is instructed to go to byline so he'll look to go beyond the winger with the ball rather than lay it off and make an advanced run to cause an overlap. Instead what you'll see is the winger forced inwards on some occassions.

[Keyzer Soze]

Yeah, i'm seeing the winger going inside, but this is something that already happen when i used to play with the wingback on a support role. I think it's something that could be related with the new ME (?)... wingers tend to cut inside a little bit more.

Because of that, i was having lot's of space on my left side... but no player there... so thats the reason why i put the wingback with the attack duty.

makes sense?

[Cleon]

Yeah, i'm seeing the winger going inside, but this is something that already happen when i used to play with the wingback on a support role. I think it's something that could be related with the new ME (?)... wingers tend to cut inside a little bit more.

Because of that, i was having lot's of space on my left side... but no player there... so thats the reason why i put the wingback with the attack duty.

makes sense?

Aye it makes sense.

What are the attributes for both players? And do they have any PPM's?

[Keyzer Soze]

I'm using Nagatomo as wingback.

As left winger, i'm using Gaitan and Salvio. One starts on the left and the other on the right side, but they have instructions to swap positions. Salvio dont have any ppm, but his prefer foot is the right one. Gaitan has the cut inside ppm.

[ShirazS]

I'm using Nagatomo as wingback.

As left winger, i'm using Gaitan and Salvio. One starts on the left and the other on the right side, but they have instructions to swap positions. Salvio dont have any ppm, but his prefer foot is the right one. Gaitan has the cut inside ppm.

What skin is that?

[Keyzer Soze]

steklo x3, but with a different font.

[achilles-the-victorious]

I think there's definitely something to be said in re: crossing/wingers being nerfed in the latest update.

I was midseason when the patch hit, and I prepare 3 tactics, thoroughly different from each other, mainly to give my team flexibility, but also to give all my players playing time. This is problematic playing with a single formation, as I don't have a formation at present that has both wingers and attacking mids, so either my wingers are on the bench, or my attacking mids are.

So I had just signed Luciano Narsingh on a free transfer as I haven't had a proper right-footed RW in years. Ibrahim Sissoko was doing pretty good as Inside Forward on the right wing prior to Narsingh's arrival. Tailored a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers, just to suit him. Starts the season like he was shot out of a cannon. 10 assists in the first 10 league appearances. Since the patch, I think he has had 1 assist in 7 or 8 games.

Meanwhile my other tactics are a 4-3-1-2 and a 4-2-3-1 (w/ 3 AMCs). Playing through the middle in other words. They are both working a treat.

So I guess my question is, what can I do to make Narsingh effective again, post-patch?

[Cleon]

Without knowing how you've set up etc its hard to say.

My wingers still score hell of a lot and get a lot of assists.

[Rashidi]

I think there's definitely something to be said in re: crossing/wingers being nerfed in the latest update.

I am waiting to encode two highlights and i hate doing it...but both goals come from the same match and in both goals my winger dribbles the ball deep from my own half and beats everyone to score a goal, the first goal looks magical the second goal is pure insanity. So no, wingers haven't been nerfed, people who didn't understand how to use them got nerfed. People who know how to set up ppms and create tactics that utilise space that can be exploited are having fun. So anyone who tells me that wingers and crossing has been nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

In fact when my winger doesnt; score goals like that he beats people to the byeline and crosses and other people score

[Cleon]

I am waiting to encode two highlights and i hate doing it...but both goals come from the same match and in both goals my winger dribbles the ball deep from my own half and beats everyone to score a goal, the first goal looks magical the second goal is pure insanity. So no, wingers haven't been nerfed, people who didn't understand how to use them got nerfed. People who know how to set up ppms and create tactics that utilise space that can be exploited are having fun. So anyone who tells me that wingers and crossing has been nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

In fact when my winger doesnt; score goals like that he beats people to the byeline and crosses and other people score

Honestly hand on heart nothings changed for me at all since the patch. My team still play the exact same way and still do what is expected of them. Pretty much the same as you

[Rashidi]

Ok this game was really funny..Brighton are now playing in the premiership and I was having a bad run of luck with injuries..really bad. My winger scored the first goal by running at the defense which is exactly what I want him to do, after he scores the first goal which was frustrating to wait for cos we were taking so long to break them down, we then promptly concede a goal when my fullback for whatever reasons decides to do a backpass to my keeper with TWO opposing players nearby to intercept the ball..we concede the equaliser. I am livid, but I guess my winger was even more angry cos his reply was classic.

Cleon I hope you don't mind me stickin in videos but a lot of people seem to think the engine has changed dramatically, it hasn't and I can understand what you mean, cos I feel exactly the same way. I am playing the same way, same instructions, nothing has changed, my goals just got a lot better.

[video=youtube;eRi7k67kyq8]

[achilles-the-victorious]

Well its good to know that everyone (me included) is starting with an open mind. (end sarcasm)

Player in discussion. Peak of his career, but not peak fitness or peak form.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Narsingh

Tactics:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

latest efforts

[Cleon]

Ok this game was really funny..Brighton are now playing in the premiership and I was having a bad run of luck with injuries..really bad. My winger scored the first goal by running at the defense which is exactly what I want him to do, after he scores the first goal which was frustrating to wait for cos we were taking so long to break them down, we then promptly concede a goal when my fullback for whatever reasons decides to do a backpass to my keeper with TWO opposing players nearby to intercept the ball..we concede the equaliser. I am livid, but I guess my winger was even more angry cos his reply was classic.

Cleon I hope you don't mind me stickin in videos but a lot of people seem to think the engine has changed dramatically, it hasn't and I can understand what you mean, cos I feel exactly the same way. I am playing the same way, same instructions, nothing has changed, my goals just got a lot better.

[video=youtube;eRi7k67kyq8]

I don't mind in the slightest. Our threads are the same anyway all aimed at helping people and showing them how the game works

Great goals btw

[achilles-the-victorious]

I had Sissoko on the left, left footed, 15 crossing, 15 anticipation, and he only managed 1 completed cross, same as Narsingh.

Don't get me wrong, I think Genoa's best three players were CB, CB and possibly LB, but the success rate just seems a lot lower than what I achieved earlier in the season (i.e. pre-patch)

[achilles-the-victorious]

It definitely seems to be a 'crossing from open play' problem, rather than a crossing from free kicks or corners problem. I can score just fine from crosses in those situations. And the real problem is that it was working fine at the start of the season, 10 assists in 10 games is not an accident, its an indication of a player fitting in well to a tactical set up.

[achilles-the-victorious]

Any insights?

[Cleon]

Not sure what you want. Crossing works fine, if its not working for you then have a look at your set up and see why there isn't many successful crosses by using the analysis tab. Remember that crosses also depending on the target and them making space to be able to get onto the end of the ball...

[achilles-the-victorious]

Can you at least acknowledge the confusion that results from having a player assist every game and now the same tactic now does not even result in completed crosses?

You are saying nothing has changed since the patch re: crossing from open play by wingers, and yet, you are telling me to look at my set up. My set up hasn't changed, but the ME has. So if I have to look at my set up... Doesn't that imply something has changed?

Not sure what you want. Crossing works fine, if its not working for you then have a look at your set up and see why there isn't many successful crosses by using the analysis tab. Remember that crosses also depending on the target and them making space to be able to get onto the end of the ball...

[Cleon]

Can you at least acknowledge the confusion that results from having a player assist every game and now the same tactic now does not even result in completed crosses?

You are saying nothing has changed since the patch re: crossing from open play by wingers, and yet, you are telling me to look at my set up. My set up hasn't changed, but the ME has. So if I have to look at my set up... Doesn't that imply something has changed?

How about actually reading what's put. I said nothing has changed for me. If its effected you then you was exploiting the super crazy dribblers and now its been fixed you are been punished for it because your whole tactic approach was built on a flaw that was been fixed. And unless you was living in a cave and used the forum with your eyes shut, you'd have known about it and considering you spend a fair bit of time in the generals ection of the forums I find it very hard to believe you knew nothing about it. Especially as you posted in a thread about them....

Your told to look at your analysis tab as something isn't right and isn't working for you. So you either want help or you don't? If you do then start by helping yourself and actually try and learn why something isn't working rather than waiting to be spoon fed by someone else.

[achilles-the-victorious]

Very helpful, thank you. My problem is this. I have a winger who was getting regular assists. He was only ever played in one of my 3 formations. That formation has remained unchanged but now he's not completing crosses, let alone getting assists. So it could be: a form issue, a tactical issue, or a change in the ME, in either case I am looking for advice from others who are successfully getting their wingers to complete their crosses from open play.

My Target Man is fairly quick, 14 pace, 14 acceleration, good jumping 15, good heading 15, very good anticipation 16. His only weakness is 12 Determination. So I don't think his inability to find space is the major issue at hand.

[Cleon]

Very helpful, thank you. My problem is this. I have a winger who was getting regular assists. He was only ever played in one of my 3 formations. That formation has remained unchanged but now he's not completing crosses, let alone getting assists. So it could be: a form issue, a tactical issue, or a change in the ME, in either case I am looking for advice from others who are successfully getting their wingers to complete their crosses from open play.

My Target Man is fairly quick, 14 pace, 14 acceleration, good jumping 15, good heading 15, very good anticipation 16. His only weakness is 12 Determination. So I don't think his inability to find space is the major issue at hand.

Honestly please post elsewhere. I have no desire to help you. I've tried in the past and you never listen to whats said or willing to help yourself by looking for issues inside your game yourself. It's a waste of my time and effort. I may aswell give my help to those who want it and are willing to listen. I seem to try and help far to many people who refuse to listen or accept that its something they are doing. No longer will I waste time helping them, its pointless. I'd rather hit my head against a brick wall.

[achilles-the-victorious]

You are pretty worked up.

I think I will be OK tactically, don't worry. My team has won 11 league matches in a row, using each of my 3 (personally crafted) tactics when I felt it would work best. Won the league 4 times in a row, 11 points up, 6 games to go. You should be able to understand why I didn't want to experiment with a troublesome tactic at this point in the season.

The last match I played my 4-4-2 posted above I still won the match, but it was the right back, with 8 crossing, that put the cross to the far post for the target man (I switched the target man to the far post, to see if more crosses will reach the target).

I just want to hear from other people whose wingers may have stopped supplying assists, and what they have done to turn it around. Overall, tactically, I don't have any real trouble to speak of. Its this specific area, crossing by wingers, where I am looking for opinions, advice, anecdotal evidence...