Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Cleon

Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

Recommended Posts

Note – This thread will not provide a download link to a tactic so please don't ask for one. Instead it will look at how I created a tactic and get an insight into how each position works. It'll be a lot of text and a discussion, so if that isn't your thing then you'll not enjoy this thread. It's also neither athread about creating a tactic, it's more about the maintaining side of the game and seeing exactly why and how something work :)

Over the last couple of weeks I've been having a lot of interaction with Spur fans on the forum and especially Lam. While chatting about various tactical things and he was explaining what he was trying to create as Spurs in terms of the tactic he uses and the way he'd like it to plan out, it got me looking over their squad in my own game. After a few days I had my own ideas of how I could make a tactic for Spurs. So curiosity got the better of me and I've started a game with them.

As I've actually completed my first season it is easier to show you the shape that I settled on. I believe this is the shape and settings for now that will allow me to play the style I want highlighted above. The use of shouts will obviously be a big factor in how this shape plays out. I've tried almost every combination and settings available in the game before deciding on the shape below. Just ask Lam about it, he as been a great help as I've been using him as a sound board and to get a second opinion on things.

He's also gave me some great advice and spotted things that I had missed or not thought about. We are both playing as the same team and with the same shape but we both play very different due to the changes we make and the players we use. If it wasn't for him I don't think I'd have written anything for FM13 as I'd grown tired of writing about my games. But some of the discussions we've had between ourselves in the last few weeks gave me back the hunger to help others. So I'd like to say thanks to him for that :)

The aim

The idea is to create a tactic that doesn't over focus on possession but rather uses whatever possession I have wisely. I want to create something that is solid at the back and allows me to take the chances I create. It won't be an easy task but it should be achievable by paying attention to details. Another idea is to create good chances rather than great amount of chances. I'd rather create 2 good chances and score one of them rather than create 15 chances and score 0. So quality over quantity is the way forward. For the first season I'll be concentrating on learning the squad and see what they can do. I'm not familiar with the Spurs squad really as I've not used them for about 3 years in FM. So I need to see the players and see how the act in games. I'll have a decent understanding after looking through the squad but that doesn't mean I'll understand how they play. To get a proper insight into the team it'll take me the full season before I feel confident that I know what each player can and cannot do, basically I'll learn how far I can push the players and what their weaknesses are.

The second season will see me push on and try and adapt the tactic to be more technical and depending on what I learn in seasons one will shape how the tactic sets ups.

The Shape

I've chose a 451/41221 for now as I believe this will allow me to create a style of play that I want to achieve. Plus it seems to tie in with a lot of threads and posts I keep seeing with people claiming they are struggling with this type of formation. So I thought it would be good to kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

This is the shape that I used for the whole of season one.

tactic overview.png

This is the general outline that I use. The duties of the defenders, defensive midfielder and the attacking midfielder's can all be changed depending on what type of game it is. You'll get a better idea of exactly what I mean by that a little later in the thread.

One thing that is important is to understand your tactic and know where it is strongest and also identify areas where it'll be weak. As you can see in my set up some of the settings might be classed as a cavalier approach but that's okay for me because I know the areas I'll struggle at – the fullbacks/wing backs. As they are very attack minded this means at times I'll have space down the flanks which they cannot cover as they will get caught out of position. Is that acceptable? Well yeah, if it becomes a massive problem and is costing me games constantly then it would be an issue but so far its not. The way I see it is risk versus reward and ask yourself how far you'll go to achieve what you want?

With the shouts I use my game is very aggressive anyway. So I tend to try and impose myself on the opposition and try and dominate the game and unsettle the opposing teams from higher up the pitch to try and eliminate the fullback weakness. I don't expect you all to agree and follow suit though but for me and in this set up it's not that much of an issue but I do understand you might think differently :)

The strength of the tactic comes from the attack. The treq drops deep and creates space by pulling the defence deep with him and creating a gap between the central defenders and the fullbacks. This is why I use two inside forwards as it helps take advantage of this and as created some interesting results as I'll show a bit later in the thread.

Style – I'm a big fan of the balanced style, especially for the type of tactic that I want to create and watch play out on the field.

For most tactics, and certainly the ones I look to create, team structure is of vital importance. By using a Balanced style, I have far greater control over how my players behave and position themselves on the field.

In the Balanced style the majority of mentalities will be based upon the DUTY given to the player and not their position on the field. There are some exceptions, the playmaker roles ie DLF, DLP and Trequaristas can often have a lower mentality than their team mates on similar duties. Thus you should be able to see why these types of roles can be important if you want to play between the lines.(see picture). (Ignore the actual player roles, the screenshot is just for illustration purposes)

r7math.jpg

Some of the key benefits this allows are for very attacking Fullbacks. As you can see, they clearly sit way back on the pitch, however they approach the game with the same attacking attitude as your strike force, and in many cases, more so.

It's an important point to distinguish as many of the other styles will base mentalities on position, thus it can be hard to 'put' players where you want on the field without manually changing their mentalities, and thus causing problems when changing strategies. This is another reason I favour the Balance style. The priority for me when choosing a role is it's mentality ie where on the field and how play will approach the game. I will often change strategies throughout a game and do not want to have to change individual mentalities when I do this. By choosing a role that suites the positioning and approach I can then often just remove the odd instruction here or there to get an almost perfect setup.

The philosophies are mentality and creative freedom structures. They range from being very structured with low creative freedom, to being very unstructured with lots of creative freedom. A useful interpretation would be as follows:

Very Rigid: Each player is given a job and is supposed to stick to it (usually 5+ different roles across a team)

Rigid: Players are assigned a job that contributes to a specific element of play (Defence, defence & transition, transition & attack, attack)

Balanced: Players focus on their duty (Defend, Support, Attack)

Fluid: Players are given instructions to focus on defence or attack

Very Fluid: Players contribute to all aspects of play

As you can see, each step reduces the level of specialisation. At Very Rigid, you have five different roles, Rigid four responsibilities, Balanced three duties, Fluid two focuses, Very Fluid one method. In Very Rigid philosophies, you expect players to stick to their role, so can assign multiple specialist roles. In Very Fluid philosophies, you expect everybody to do a bit of everything, which means specialist roles are redundant.

Strategy – Counter attacking will allow me to sit back deep and pass the ball around and be probing, then attack when a good opportunity arises. Not a lot of people realise how successful a counter attacking tactic can be. Some people think you can't be probing when using this strategy but that's not true at all.

More and more people seem to be going down the counter attacking route and I honestly don't blame them. It's easy to set up a counter attacking tactic and I think this is another reason why they are becoming more popular. For me it is one of the best strategies there is because it is highly flexible and can be set up to suit either a defensive tactic or an attacking one. Not so long ago counter attacking football was frowned upon on these forums as people thought it was a boring style of play and often refer to it as defensive. That's not the case at all and it can be very attacking should you wish it to be.

Counter attack.png

You can see in the screenshot that my defence is deep, my fullbacks are the yellow circled players and the defensive midfielder is the red circle. By my defence dropping deeper they open up space between the defence and midfield which creates passing options along with space. This allows me to start probing attacks from here and be patient in the build up.

There are many different types of counter attacking football and the way I've highlighted above might not suit everyone. But for me it's ideal in the style of football that I am trying to adopt.

Counter Attacking

Counter attacking is a speciality and requires you to exploit space. Here are the things that I think are important for a counter attacking game.

Technical Attributes

Crossing – Whether it is from deep or the by-line, it’s a weapon that you can use to devastating effects. An early cross to an attacker can instantly put the opposition onto the back foot.

Dribbling – To take advantage of any space that appears you’ll want players who are able to bring the ball forward.

Finishing – To make the most of any move you’ll want to put it into the back of the net.

Long shots – Players sometimes find themselves with a good opportunity to shoot from distance, especially when counter attacking.

Technique – For the same reasons I mentioned in the attacking one.

Mental Attributes

Aggression – Players should want to be involved in everything. This can also help with winning the ball back early and starting quick counter attacks.

Bravery – You don’t want players who bottle it when trying to win the ball back early do you?

Off The Ball - Movement is the key to all attacking formations and play. If an attacking player has a low rating then he’ll be less likely to find a little bit of space and make the right movement to beat his marker before he receives the goal. Sometimes it can be the difference that gives you that extra yard.

Work rate - Players will need to work hard both in defence and attacking situations. They will be up and down the field all day long, so should be prepared to put in the hard graft.

Physical Attributes

Pace – I like to play fast paced attacking football so for me pace is essential. Especially for player’s who like to drive forward and beat their man. It’s important for me that they can reach the top speed. Plus the players will be back and forth all match long.

Acceleration – This will provide that little edge in gaining an extra yard on the opposition. This and pace are very important.

Stamina – As the players will be up and down a lot, they need to be fit.

Strength – Having a high attribute for this will ensure he can hold his own against the opposition should they get close to each other. You don’t want your players to get out muscled and knocked off the ball. It will also help you win the ball back.

Passing Style – I change this depending on weather conditions. If it's heavy rain/snow then I'll adopt a more direct approach to try and offset the ball been bogged down. If I ignore the weather conditions then I'd get penalised and a simple change can make the difference. A good tip is to use a custom view on your fixture list to show you the weather conditions. It can be really useful.

The rest of the settings should be self explanatory but we'll touch upon the rest of them later when we talk about individual players. It'll become more clear then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouts

Creating a group of shouts can be very beneficial when you're inside a game and want to achieve something quick. I often create quite a few different kinds of shouts to retain possession, break down a stubborn defence amongst other things. But they can also be a great tool for recreating a particular style of play without manually changing sliders. Some discussions recently on here say if you use a certain set of shouts at the beginning of every game then you should have them in the base tactic instead. But why? I used to think along these lines but not any more.

By using them as a set of shouts rather than making the changes manually to the base tactic, it allows me quicker general play and means if they aren't working in a game I can swap them out for another set I've created depending on the scenario I am facing in the actual game. Some styles of play don't always work especially if you are trying to play a possession based game on wet pitches. So if you did manually add the changes to the base tactic then every time you'd want to change the way you play you'd have to manually change the settings again to something more suitable. Where as a group of shouts allow you to do this instantly with 1 click.

I'm not to sure why people criticise this style of play or approach, maybe it's because they don't actually understand what the shouts are about and how they work? Admittedly this style might not be for everyone but for those who use it, I'm not sure why its frowned upon or suggested they should add it to the tactic to start with, that's not logical at all if they intend to use other shouts in other scenarios. Once you start changing something manually then you are making it incredibly hard to keep track of which shouts you are negating.

Shouts are a very important part of the game for me and I'll be using a lot of them on this Spurs game. Here are the ones I'll be using to help me create the style I want to achieve.

Barcashouts.png

These group of shouts are used to keep possession but at the same time hassle the opponents. I find these work great for unsettling teams who like to pass the ball around. You can really get stuck into them yet at the same time when you get the ball you try and keep hold of the ball. Due to me having an immense amount of pace in attack and skilful dribblers it makes sense for me to try and utilise that by running at the defence.

Note – On the screen shot you can change the Pass to feet option for the pass into space one if you think a team will dominate the tackling and not allow you much space to play in. I tend to switch it around quite a lot.

As I'm wanting to create a specific style of play then these are the shoutsI tend to use at the start of a game.

Push Higher Up - Self explanatory this one. You instruct the defence to move high up the pitch and increases closing down. Ideal for using if you are facing slow strikers (you need intelligent defenders though), a team who are very defensive or if you want to reduce the space that the opposition is playing in.

Stay On Feet – Everyone (unless you use a BWM) will be instructed to easy tackle. This is useful if you feel challenges are been miss-timed or if you are just been reckless. Also good to use if your players are lack the tackling attribute. Using this also helps the team keep its defensive shape, especially against technically fast sides.

Pass Into Feet – Reduces through ball’s for the players. This is good to use if you feel too many passes are been intercepted by the opposition or you feel too many passes are been misplaced. If you have slow players this is the type of passing you want rather than the pass into space one above.

Work Ball Into Box – This tells players to use long shots rarely. This is useful if you think your players are shooting too often. Or if you find you want to keep possession and be more probing.

Retain Possession – Shortens passing length and slows the tempo down for your players. I use this shout a lot, it helps pass the ball around and not give possession away easily. Some people enjoy dominating possession as they believe if the opposition don’t have the ball they can’t score. Which is true but it’s also a good tool to use when you want to close a game out and hold onto the current result. Rather than go defensive and invite un-needed pressure I believe this to be a lot less risky and just as effective.

Hassle Opponents – Increases the tempo, tells the team to tight man mark and also increases the closing down for your side. Use this if you want to reduce space and time that you allow the opposition to have. Works good with a very attacking strategy and against teams who are a lot weaker than yours.

Run At Defence - Instructs all attacking players to run with the ball often. This does not include MC’s on attacking duty, only attacking midfielders. This is best used when the opposition allows your attacking players time on the ball .i.e. not closing you down. It can be a great shout to use if the opposition is standing off you. It can be equally effective if the oppositions defence are bad at tackling as well.

Other useful shouts that you can use for certain scenario's are;

Possession Shout’s

Winning Possession

We all have games where the opposition is having a lot of possession and you can’t get a hold of the ball. So if you face this scenario then the shouts I would use are;

Push higher up; get stuck in, Hassle opponents.

By pushing higher up you would be reducing the space available to the opposition in which they can pass around in. The get stuck in shout will help be more aggressive and can unsettle the calmness of the opposition players on the ball, in instructs them to tackle harder. And by using hassle opponents shout you’ll be changing to man marking and instructing players to closedown higher up

Retaining Possession

Some people enjoy dominating possession as they believe if the opposition don’t have the ball they can’t score. Which is true but it’s also a good tool to use when you want to close a game out and hold onto the current result. Rather than go defensive and invite un-needed pressure I believe this to be a lot less risky and just as effective;

Retain possession, pass to feet and drop deeper.

By using these shouts you’ll be asking the players to drop deeper and close down less. This will help retain the natural shape of the formation you use. Plus you’ll be using shorter passes and playing at a slower tempo while doing more through balls.

The above 2 shouts are what I end up using the most of from the various game’s I’ve got on the go.

Taking Advantage of Positional Weakness

The next shout might surprise a few of you as I’ve not seen many users post about this combination of shouts.

Sometimes we face formations that are vulnerable in the middle of the pitch. Yet our own formation might have good wingers and good central midfielders. So when I want to stretch the opponent I use these;

Exploit the middle and play wider.

This allows my players to play wider than normal but due to me normally outnumbering the opposition’s midfield it allows my central players more space on the ball. The opposition’s central players will also be stretched and this can create bit gaps to exploit. Obviously using this shout will depend on your own formation and how capable you are of actually playing through the middle. I like using this against 4231’s, 442’s and any other formation with just 2 central midfielders and no defensive midfielders.

You can also do the opposite and use;

Exploit the Flanks and play narrower.

I find this useful sometimes when the opposition out number me in the middle and I want to stay as compact as I can. Yet at the same time cause them problems down the wings. This is great to use against teams who don’t use wide players. I know this is a rare occurrence but sometimes you will face a team who don’t use wingers or wide attacking midfielders. This isn’t a shout I use often but I’ve used it a few times throughout the season.

Then we also have the normal approach many of you will no-doubt use at times.

Exploit the middle and play narrower.

I like using this combination if you yourself lack wide players and have a much stronger central midfield compared to the opposition. Plus if you don’t have wide players then all your play will be centrally, so makes sense to use this.

You might also find yourself;

Play wider and exploit the flanks.

This is useful for when you have stronger wide play than the opposition. Also useful if the opposition is all in the middle and you want to stretch them and don’t mind been wider in your own play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does it all piece together?

There seems to be a bit of a misconception knocking around on the forums that you have to continuously tweak tactics all the time and that its a very time consuming. That isn't true at all and I play a good 70% of my games without changing anything apart from subs. The other 30% is probably spent changing my shouts if I feel I need to. But even then because I've created sets of shouts like I mentioned above it takes about 2 seconds to add them to the game.

The only time the game becomes time consuming for me is if I am creating a new tactic or I want a player to do a specific role. Then I'll watch all games on full to get a better understanding of what's happening so I can achieve this. It's down to you the user to determine how time consuming you want it to be. Once you fully understand the basics of the match engine and know what the shouts do, then it takes seconds to design and create a tactic. If you want to pay more attention to things then great but if you understand those two elements then you don't have to pay as much attention should you choose not to.

If you stick to the TC (I'm not saying you have to, I'm just discussing my approach) and think of the game as descriptions rather than numbered sliders then that is half the battle won in understanding the game and how it works. Once you start to think of the game as numbers then you are really over complicating the game when there is no need. So hopefully this will show you what I mean.

This next bit is the most important thing about the tactic, it's all good and well knowing what settings are used but how many people actually understand the roles and know why something does or doesn't work? For example not all inside forwards play the same way, how they play is down to many things including;

  • PPM's
  • Attributes
  • Space
  • Time
  • Players around him
  • Width

and so on.

Goalkeeper

Let's have a look at the roles the keeper could have took on for me and lets see why I decided on the sweeper keeper settings for him.

(in these screenshots it doesn't show that I use a BPD but I do, this screen was taken from an old game that’s why)

altkeeper.png

Those are the standard keeper settings. But there not good enough for what I need, if you remember I mentioned that my fullbacks would be an issue due to them been attacking. Well to try and compensate for this I need my keeper to do more than just stand there. I need him to come off his line and deal with threats. This helps negate some of the issues with the fullbacks but the above settings don't allow for this.

But these do;

gksetting.png

Now these settings are much better and allow for quick counter attacks. Although in the screen above I am tinkering with some settings so I can try and work on the possession side of things more. So I'm experimenting with the idea of the BPD collecting the ball and playing out from the back. I've only tried it for one game so far so nothing much to report yet as I might have to revert back to using just a standard keeper if the sweeper keeper is going to allow the BPD to collect the ball. As his through balls would be wasted then.

Although judging by his overall stats for the season having him allow the defender to collect is a good idea. You'll understand why from the stats below;

stats%20overview.png

Only 62% of passes completed, that is a very big waste of possession there and is something I will rectify for season two. That's just not good enough and if I sort this out that should improve by about 15% at the very least which will have a huge impact on the rest of the possession that my side has.

Goalkeepers are really easy to sort out and there isn't much variation in all honesty so they don't make good discussion points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Central Defenders

To be able to play a possession game I have to ensure it starts at the back that's why I'm trying to introduce a ball playing defender into the side. Although I will need to bring someone in who can play this role and be good at it as my current defenders don't have the attributes for this as you can see.

Caulker.png

Dawson.png

Verton.png

Jan Vertonghen is the one currently doing the ball playing defender role because he is the most composed, better passer and the best defender I have mentally. He is still not the ideal BPD though but for now he'll have to do.

bpdsettings.png

I have left him on the default settings but I'll probably move to zonal marking for the coming season rather than stick with man marking. I want to reduce the risk of losing my shape and getting players dragged out of position. Man marking as worked great so far this season but to be able to take the next step I feel a zonal marking system is better suited as keeping my shape is very important.

bpdstats.png

77% passing isn't bad but ideally I'd like it to be 80%

Steven Caulker is my other defender and although he is young and still developing he'd been an ever present in the side this season. I've actually used him a lot more than I thought I would but I think this is down to his physical side of the game. To help with the amount of crosses I get when the fullbacks are caught out of position it's a good idea to have someone who is physical and can jump and head the ball clear. It's vital that you can deal with crosses so to have an aerial presence is a necessity. This is why I also use Dawson as back up because he is of the same mould.

dcsettings.png

dcstats.png

Not a bad first season for him and hopefully as he improves he'll get stronger and stronger.

I create custom views to give me a better understanding of how my players have done so here is mine for the central defender;

overalldcstats.png

As you can see I have it showing interceptions, mistakes, headers attempted, headers won, tackles attempted, tackles ratio and key tackles.

You should discount Kyle Walker though as he is my right back so can't be compared to the others as he plays a different role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fullbacks

These players are important for me as I expect them to run with the ball and push the oppositions wide players back. They are both set up the exact same;

settings.png

Both are instructed to cross even though I am trying to create a possession based counter attacking style. I'll be looking at changing the role of these players over the course of the second season as I noticed the cross completion ratio is really low as you can see here;

dlstat.png

drstat.png

The fullbacks are good at getting forward and providing the width that the team needs but they are also instrumental in defending and help break play up high up the pitch. The higher up the pitch I can win the ball the sooner I can regain possession and start building for the next attack.

Kyle Walker and Baines have a good tackling percentage although I'd like Baines to be slightly higher. I'd like Baines to have fewer shots too or more on target. Again it'll be something I'll be working hard on for season two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Defensive Midfielder

This is a very important role in the shape I use and he is more than just someone who breaks up play and offers protection to the back four. He can also push up into the centre and make your midfield more solid and compact making it harder for the opposition to go through you.

dmcoverview.png

dmstats.png

It's very important that the defensive midfielder is composed when he's on the ball because he will see a lot of it and be a passing outlet. His tackling percentage is again great and shows he is doing his role really well.

What I tend to do especially against two man midfield’s is give him a support role rather than a defensive one. This allows him to push on and put his stamp on the the midfield from a higher position. It also means you out number the midfielders centrally making it really hard for the opposition to get hold of the ball. When you do win the ball back the defensive midfielder will be positioned higher up so you can start attacks again if the ball was cleared as he should mop them up.

The Deep Lying Midfielder

It's important that I have a midfielder to drop off and always be available for the pass, this player is that option. He always makes himself available and keeps things simple and does the 'basic' stuff for the side. Everyone needs a player like this, this is mine.

dlp.png

dlpoverview.png

This is one position in the tactic that I am not happy with. I'm happy with how it plays when in possession but I need to find someone who can do the defensive stuff too. As you can see Siggy isn't up to that task and his tackling percentage is very low at just 57%. This is where a lot of his mistakes have come from this season by missing a challenge. I've seen it happen in almost every game in the league. Luckily none of ended up costing me goals because the defensive midfielder sweeps up his mistakes. But none the less it is still cause for concern and adding more work for the defensive midfielder when there isn't not no need really.

So hopefully I can find a proper deep lying playmaker who is creative and able to break up play. Or I am playing about with an idea in my head, that would see me swap the deep lying midfielder around with the defensive midfielder. This would allow the playmaker to dictate the game from lower down the pitch and allow the defensive minded midfielder to be a proper midfield destroyer and try and win the ball back from higher positions on the field.

It's all just an idea at the minute in my head but I think this will be the way I lean for next season, I'm not sure if it would work as good but if I don't try it then I'll never know.

Advanced Playmaker

This player is the one who breaks from midfield and plays between the lines. His job is more link up related than actually scoring. However I'm sure I can make him more effective.

apoverview.png

ap.png

Dembele has been fantastic and does a lot more for the team than the stats suggest. He's more involved in the build up play rather than the actual end product. He links up great with whoever the striker is and the left sided attacking midfielder. He'll pick the ball up from the centre and drive forward with a well times run and then slip the ball to the left sided player or to the striker. He can also put a tackle in too.

I always think its important to have players who are capable of tackling because for me the defence starts at the top of the pitch. I've pressured the opposition high up the pitch and won the ball back or forced mistakes quite often in this save and it's resulted in quite a few goals. So for me its important they can win the ball back.

The late runs of the attacking playmaker are hard to pick up especially if it's against a 442 or any other two man midfield set ups because there isn't a defensive midfielder to pick him up. Meaning the opposition either mark him like for like with another midfielder or allow him the time and space to keep making these kind of runs for 90 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AML/AMR

These two positions are vital for how I score majority of my goals. Both of them are involved in almost everything my team does. They both score, create and make space and link up with the striker.

balesettings.png

amlstats.png

Simply put, Gareth Bale has been amazing for the side, his goal and assists means he has been involved in almost everything the team as done. He's set up in a way that often sees him as the lone striker. The striker drops off the front and comes deeper for the ball so that means Bale is positioned a lot further up the pitch at times and because he's cutting inside from the left flank means he is impossible to mark and pick up because it all happens so fast. The link up play between him and the striker is phenomenal as you'll see for yourself a little later in the thread.

Its hard to describe how he plays so I think it'll be best to show you examples to give you a real insight into his actual role as words don't do it justice.

lennonsettings.png

amrstats.png

Lennon's role is a lot different to Bales. Bale exploits the space from out wide that the striker creates and runs at defences. Aaron Lennon however stays out wide and likes to take his man out and get to the byline. He's not bad at crossing either although his completion ratio could be a bit better. But none the less he does his job really well. He drops deep, receives the ball, then dribbles at the fullbacks and more often than not puts them on the back foot.

He also seems very hard to mark and can often be found drifting to the far post for a tap in from a defence splitting pass from either Bale or whoever I play as the striker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Striker(s)

I have three strikers who can all play this role yet every single one of them plays it differently as bring a different dimension to the team.

strikersetting.png

Adestats.png

Defoestats.png

Rossistats.png

This is probably the most important role in the whole tactic because if the striker doesn't do his job then the supporting players roles won't work. It relies on the striker dropping deep and creating space by dragging a defender with him or by them allowing him the space and time to play with the ball at his feet. If a defender drops deep and follow him this leaves a massive gap between the fullback and the other central defender. So a simple ball into this area for either or the wide players to run onto can often be seen in my games. He really is the focal point of the whole system and without his movement then everything around him fails and doesn't work.

Now depending on which player you use depends on what the player offers to the role. When I use Adebayor for this role he is dominate in the air and his physical presence means he can shrug off most challenges. Sometimes he receives the ball and drives forward and hit a powerful shot and scores. Sometimes he wins the aerial challenge and knocks the ball down for the midfielders to get onto. The whole round play from Adebayor is excellent and he offers a lot.

But if I use Defoe for the role he offers something a lot different and utilises his pace from deep positions to really drive forward at the defence and make them commit. It often results in Defoe either beating his man of been hacked down for a foul on the edge of the area. While Adebayor is more about the creation from deeper areas, Defoe creates a lot by making the defence commit to him and then slipping a ball through for the wide players to finish or to knock to the ball back to him so he can finish a good team move off.

In January I also brought in Rossi. He took a while to fit into the side but is now settling down which can be seen in his performances towards the end of the season, his play became a lot better. When he plays his role he is less of a goal threat than the other two but his passing play and bringing the wide players and the central midfielders into play is a lot better. His play seems to be based on pass and move, pass and move.

So each striker offers something unique to the play and the overall end product of the team. It's great to have so many options because it means depending on who I play I can choose the best striker for the situation and use him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't going to post this up yet as it's not finished, but if I don't post it now then I doubt I'd have posted it before Xmas. Over the next week or so I'll be updating this thread a lot and showing you exmaples of how all the above plays in actual games. But making the custom highlights via FM is very time consuming and a lot of work but it'll be worth it when its done. So I just thought I'd share the little bit I have done for now :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:applause:

Nice to see it in it's full glory.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice post, the number of people i know using the 41221 as a c-a tactic is a sign that counterattacking tactics are a viable strategy home or away

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice post, the number of people i know using the 41221 as a c-a tactic is a sign that counterattacking tactics are a viable strategy home or away

Indeed.

And when I start posting about season 2, people should see it isn't only a defensive tool and can be used to create a very attacking based style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have 3 players with an attacking duty on the left side. Isn't it better to put the AP/a on the right and DLP/s on the left, or do you have a specific reasson for this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice thread Cleon, I'm not a big fan of shouts cause I want to have full control on my team settings and shouts rarely give me such an impression, anyway I'd try to build some pre-made group of shouts, like you did, to cope with different in-game scenarios and obtain the desired style of play.

Let's say that shouts could become similar to tactical sets of the past, or at least play a similar role, I will probably do that using a flat 4-4-2 tactic but I'll keep this thread on my radar. :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You have 3 players with an attacking duty on the left side. Isn't it better to put the AP/a on the right and DLP/s on the left, or do you have a specific reasson for this?

My left side is the strongest side of my team, Bale and Baines are great attacking players so I like Dembele to play on the left too with an attacking role because it means if Bale stays out wide and Baines offers the over lap, Demebele can also be involved in the move and keep up with play to offer another option to the attack. Something the DLP doesn't offer. Plus the AP is better at breaking up play because he's strong, can tackle and his all round game is excellent. So even though he is attackminded he still does the defensive job well and offers protection against quick breaks down the left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice thread Cleon, I'm not a big fan of shouts cause I want to have full control on my team settings and shouts rarely give me such an impression, anyway I'd try to build some pre-made group of shouts, like you did, to cope with different in-game scenarios and obtain the desired style of play.

Let's say that shouts could become similar to tactical sets of the past, or at least play a similar role, I will probably do that using a flat 4-4-2 tactic but I'll keep this thread on my radar. :thup:

That's actually a good way of putting it, using shouts as tactical sets to gain the play style you want to achieve :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent post and thought provoking as usual.

I use a 4-1-2-2-1 with very similar roles but far more conservative duties. My main focus at the moment is learning shout combinations and when / why to use them. You have combinations above that I'd never even thought of, so I'll look at those.

The other interesting thing was just your custom view to show mentality for all players; nice touch and one I'll be nicking!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like reading this! I actually just started making my own tactics and this just helps me so much to understand the tactical side of the game.

Thanks for doing this! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What sort of success levels would you be looking for with regards to passes, tackles and headers for each position? If you were playing in lower leagues would you look for your tactic to give you similar success rates or would your be lowering your expectatiOns accordingly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What sort of success levels would you be looking for with regards to passes, tackles and headers for each position? If you were playing in lower leagues would you look for your tactic to give you similar success rates or would your be lowering your expectatiOns accordingly?

I'd expect roughly simliar but obviosuly depending how low down the leagues you are, then the final % might be a bit less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A quality thread Cleon. I feel that I may need to re-read it a couple of times to digest all the points you have made and am eagerly anticipating the second season instalment. I have been having a number of issues thus far with the latest patch, hopefully this thread will go some way in enabling me to rectify that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice and very informative post. :thup:

Can I ask what the benefits of a ball playing defender defensively is? I reckon you use him to keep possesion and play out from the back, but how is he doing defensively?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice and very informative post. :thup:

Can I ask what the benefits of a ball playing defender defensively is? I reckon you use him to keep possesion and play out from the back, but how is he doing defensively?

It is to keep possession and try and build from the back. He's better positioned to start a counter attack to my midfielders than the keeper is. Defensively he's really good but he isn't the ideal BPD I need to try and bring someone new in when I get the chance who can play the role better (from an attacking sense and not a defensive one)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A very good read. Really good points made. I'm still occasionally playing FM12 with Tenerife, not having anywhere near as much time to play now but I too am finding a counter attacking style to be quite effective. Top job:thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleon what is the minimum condition to start the match in your opinion?

Depends on what the player is expected to do during a match. If its someone who is very mobile and works a lot then a low condition will catch up with him and he'll become tired. I tend to rotate or drop a player if his condition is below 90%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love this thread because it shows the level of flexibility in the tactical approach, particularly with the WOW system. I've used it as a defensive formation until it thbecame so enjoyable to use that I converted it into my standard tactic. The one thing I find is that my deep lying playmaker rarely gets good ratings. He does the simple things, sometimes gets the odd 7.2 if he gives the pass before the assist, but generally keeps things ticking. I set him as an Advanced playmakers and it propped up his own ratings, but it certainly affected my CM(a), and the overall play just didn't look so good or effective. His PPM has "looks to pass rather than attempting to shoot" and he sits back letting the more creative players get the glory. The difference between using a DLP and not is very telling in both possession stats, but also being able to pull the opposition and break them down. I find "dictates tempo" also helps, although my midfiled three have two players with this particular PPM, which at times leads to overly elaborate build up.

I guess my question is should I try to modify the DLP's settings or role in order to get him to boost his ratings, or is his overall contribution to the team to be the unsung hero who makes things tick? My instinct leans to the latter, but besides let him take penalties, I just wish there was more I could do to boost his match ratings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I love this thread because it shows the level of flexibility in the tactical approach, particularly with the WOW system. I've used it as a defensive formation until it thbecame so enjoyable to use that I converted it into my standard tactic. The one thing I find is that my deep lying playmaker rarely gets good ratings. He does the simple things, sometimes gets the odd 7.2 if he gives the pass before the assist, but generally keeps things ticking. I set him as an Advanced playmakers and it propped up his own ratings, but it certainly affected my CM(a), and the overall play just didn't look so good or effective. His PPM has "looks to pass rather than attempting to shoot" and he sits back letting the more creative players get the glory. The difference between using a DLP and not is very telling in both possession stats, but also being able to pull the opposition and break them down. I find "dictates tempo" also helps, although my midfiled three have two players with this particular PPM, which at times leads to overly elaborate build up.

I guess my question is should I try to modify the DLP's settings or role in order to get him to boost his ratings, or is his overall contribution to the team to be the unsung hero who makes things tick? My instinct leans to the latter, but besides let him take penalties, I just wish there was more I could do to boost his match ratings.

Who do you use a the DLP? It is a shame though that someone who is the real heart of the team and does the simple stuff struggles to get high ratings. It's because the ME is biased towards assists and goals, so someone who does the simple stuff isn't recognised as much. I'd forget about the rating and just focus on 'is he doing the job you require'. If the answer is yes then there is nothing to fix :)

Also check the balance and agility of the playmaker because if he is doing quick turns and passing or has to shift his body, if he's low in these 2 attributes it can actually impact his passing game :)

Hopefully it'll be fixed in a future version of the game though because it's been a problem for around 3 or 4 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent thread!!

But the image of the Deep Lying Midfielder shows the Defensive Midfielder' settings! :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excellent thread!!

But the image of the Deep Lying Midfielder shows the Defensive Midfielder' settings! :p

Cheers, I'll fix it when I next go on FM :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hopefully it'll be fixed in a future version of the game though because it's been a problem for around 3 or 4 years.

It's my favorite role in football, but what the deep lying playmaker does would probably be rather hard to compute into ratings, although there's hope - IRL people are starting to pay more attention to the more cultured roles in the game beyond goals and assists, I guess as much to Andrea Pirlo's sweet penalties and Modric's cross against Spain:D

I play as Roma and use Andrea Bartolacci - good mental stats, decent physical, and very good technical. I have the likes of Lamella, Pjanic, and Florenzi on my team, so I'm pretty well taken care of when it comes to flair and creativity in the final third. Bartolacci has a league leading pass completion rate of 88% and although I don't have him ticked as playmaker, he's involved in everything in terms of build up and keeps things ticking rather nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent post again.

Will you share the different pre-set shouts you've set up at the start of the season?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excellent post again.

Will you share the different pre-set shouts you've set up at the start of the season?

All the shouts I've needed to use so far are all included in the post :)

If I come across something different that I need to use while playing though, I will post it :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why didn't you put Tom Huddlstone instead of Siggurdson?

Huddlestone isn't creative enough and not the sort of player I wanted for the DLP role. Siggy is the better player for retaining possession and starting attacking because he has the better attributes that's need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's just 1 thing that I dont understand. Everything seems to click into place without much of a barren run or uphill struggle right from when you set-up the team. Obviously its not luck but I find it more difficult than ever to get that starting platform right and tinker from there. I may face a pre-season where I fail to win a single game and think this isnt working and start from scratch.

How did you results go in this game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's just 1 thing that I dont understand. Everything seems to click into place without much of a barren run or uphill struggle right from when you set-up the team. Obviously its not luck but I find it more difficult than ever to get that starting platform right and tinker from there. I may face a pre-season where I fail to win a single game and think this isnt working and start from scratch.

How did you results go in this game?

You can't really test a tactic in pre-season you don't learn anything about it at all. So starting again because you have a bad pre-season is kind of silly :p

My results are good. Once you learn the basics and take the keep it simple approach you should have some success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Huddlestone isn't creative enough and not the sort of player I wanted for the DLP role. Siggy is the better player for retaining possession and starting attacking because he has the better attributes that's need.

Would you use Huddlestone if you were to switch the DLP to the defensive midfield position? He looks pretty good for that role with physical presence, good defensive awareness and the PPM's to initiate counter attacks from deep (especially tries long range passes) as well as his two-footedness. Then you could still have Sandro/Parker performing the destroyer role alongside Dembele.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would you use Huddlestone if you were to switch the DLP to the defensive midfield position? He looks pretty good for that role with physical presence, good defensive awareness and the PPM's to initiate counter attacks from deep (especially tries long range passes) as well as his two-footedness. Then you could still have Sandro/Parker performing the destroyer role alongside Dembele.

He lacks the flair for me. I want someone who every so often might try the hollywood 60 yard pass. Plus he has really low agility which means he'd struggle when been closed down if he had to turn quick or change his feet. He is an option and could do the role well but against the bigger sides when he gets closed down heavily then flair and agility been so low could be an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to strategy, if im playing where i want fullbacks to support now and again but wanting the main attack to come from my two mc's and two strikers (2 dcs and 2 dms hold) should i be playing rigid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can't really test a tactic in pre-season you don't learn anything about it at all. So starting again because you have a bad pre-season is kind of silly :p

My results are good. Once you learn the basics and take the keep it simple approach you should have some success.

My problem is the lack of patience to see out a storm especially when time is of the essence but you are right.

One more question. Do you set out the formation in your head before you choose your team and choose the players for the formation OR do you set a formation that suits the players?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My problem is the lack of patience to see out a storm especially when time is of the essence but you are right.

One more question. Do you set out the formation in your head before you choose your team and choose the players for the formation OR do you set a formation that suits the players?

I have been known to do both. It just depends what my mood is when taking over a club in all honesty. With the Spurs save I only took over to help someone else on the forums inititally and see how I could get certain things to work for him. But I started to enjoy it and really got into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As insightful as ever Cleon :) I really like these kind of threads, they're a real eye-opener to me since everyone plays so differently to one another. I was especially interested by the bits about how you play matches; I'd never thought of using the grouped shouts feature but considering I rarely use only one shout at a time in response to common scenarios, it would really help me to save time. Really struggled to get that balance of detail and enjoyment recently so that should help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the next bit of the thread will be to take a look at my custom views because I use a lot and explain the reasonings about them. Becuase for me, they are an extention of tactic making. Then the bit after that will probably be about how to deal with opposition who far superior and how you set up to win the game. I think a lot of people will be interested in how I got on against Barcelona.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He lacks the flair for me. I want someone who every so often might try the hollywood 60 yard pass. Plus he has really low agility which means he'd struggle when been closed down if he had to turn quick or change his feet. He is an option and could do the role well but against the bigger sides when he gets closed down heavily then flair and agility been so low could be an issue.

Fair enough, his lack of mobility is definitely a weakness in that role and although deep lying players with flair and good defensive abilities are very rare, the attacking prowess gained from having a more creative player in a deep role probably makes that trade-off worthwile.

The combination of a DLP with a defensive wall in front of him has been something that caught my eye recently in real life Roma games where Tachtsidis has often been the deepest midfielder (he has a similar build to Huddlestone and is quite creative being ) spraying passes about and De Rossi played further forward to win the ball back high up. When I get the full game I'm probably going to try to recreate such a midfield, though I think De Rossi will be my deepest midfielder in order to limit the wastefulness of his tendency to try long range passes and shoot from distance. Found it interesting that you were considering a similar setup for your midfield.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fair enough, his lack of mobility is definitely a weakness in that role and although deep lying players with flair and good defensive abilities are very rare, the attacking prowess gained from having a more creative player in a deep role probably makes that trade-off worthwile.

The combination of a DLP with a defensive wall in front of him has been something that caught my eye recently in real life Roma games where Tachtsidis has often been the deepest midfielder (he has a similar build to Huddlestone and is quite creative being ) spraying passes about and De Rossi played further forward to win the ball back high up. When I get the full game I'm probably going to try to recreate such a midfield, though I think De Rossi will be my deepest midfielder in order to limit the wastefulness of his tendency to try long range passes and shoot from distance. Found it interesting that you were considering a similar setup for your midfield.

The trade off shouldn't be to bad if I can make the other MC tackle and take on the role of a DMC. I guess he'll be the key to it.

Before the Spurs save I was messing around with a defensive midfielder playing in the AMC slot. Rather than him been creative he was just an hassler and was forcing errors from the opposition. I really think this has potential too.

I'm itching to get started and try the ideas out but as usual I won't have time until tomorrow or Tuesday. It's always the same when I get an idea, real life gets in the way :thdn::D

It's a set up I'm familiar with though as I used it a lot on FM12 with my Santos side. However I always had 2 DMC's so never went with the destroyer screening the DLP. So hopefully it'll work out when I try it. It should make for a decent discussion too hopefully.

Cheers for the info about Roma, I haven't watched them play for a few years now so I had no idea they play something like this. I'll try and find so info on it and see if I can find some clips on youtube.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As insightful as ever Cleon :) I really like these kind of threads, they're a real eye-opener to me since everyone plays so differently to one another. I was especially interested by the bits about how you play matches; I'd never thought of using the grouped shouts feature but considering I rarely use only one shout at a time in response to common scenarios, it would really help me to save time. Really struggled to get that balance of detail and enjoyment recently so that should help.

Just not getting into your save atm then? :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the next bit of the thread will be to take a look at my custom views

I'll be very interested in this bit, because custom views are simple ways to get more information, but it isn't always obvious when and where to look.

There was a simple post from Rashidi1 recently about showing your AssMan's opinion of a players' best role and duty on the Selection Info screen. It's so bloody obvious that it's easy to miss, and it just makes so much sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I play the same way, but I want to use an advanced forward (Lacina Traore/Van Wolfswinkle) as my striker. RVW is ok as a DLF but doesn't get the job done consistently, so seems better suited to advanced forward, how would I get the best out of him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...