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Tutoring a model professional youngster

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Or tutor any of these personalities:

Model Citizen: Determination > 17 & Ambition > 17 & Loyalty > 17 & Pressure > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Temperament > 17 & Sportsmanship > 17.

Model Professional: Professionalism = 20 & Temperament > 9.

Professional: Professionalism = 18-19 & Temperament > 9.

Perfectionist: Ambition > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Determination > 17.

Driven: Determination = 20 & Ambition > 9.

Is it any point? I got a youngster who is Driven, so wouldn't he be able to be a star if the PA is great whitout tutoring?

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Usually if a youngster has high determination I'm against tutoring and I'll ship them out on loan as determined youngsters seem to perform very well.

It's hard to tell if the youngster is lacking in any of the other personality areas which could come back to haunt you other than those descriptions. If they're a real youth star and I have somebody like Lampard who's got ideal stats to tutor anybody then that's the only exception.

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Thx HHUK!

Maybe I should raise this Driven youngsters professionalism and ambition values thru tutoring, but then again i would probably have to sacriface his determination values among other..

Has anyone had a Model Citizen in your squad? Guess it's a certain that you don't need to Tutor that kind of player..

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Thx HHUK!

Maybe I should raise this Driven youngsters professionalism and ambition values thru tutoring, but then again i would probably have to sacriface his determination values among other..

Has anyone had a Model Citizen in your squad? Guess it's a certain that you don't need to Tutor that kind of player..

Since it can be hard to know what his other stats, who can say if it is worth it :) ... but I would rather try to get his Professionalism from 7 to 14, at the sacrifice of maybe 4 or 5 Determination points, than having a DET 20 and PRO 7 player.

Of course if you could find a Perfectionist or a Model Citizen, then you would be less likely to lose much Determination.

I have personally never seen a Model Citizen in my squad (besides the one I made when I was updating the personality scores thread made by Lysien in FM10 or 11). But I think the FM10 had a handful of them amongst the pre-loaded players.

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I stay away from tutoring youngsters with high professionalism unless the tutor has an even higher attribute in that (professional, model professional > driven, fairly professional, resolute). Same applies to high determination.

Otherwise I just feel it's too risky as the youngster might actually decrease these attributes, which are are the most important ones for his development.

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Since it can be hard to know what his other stats, who can say if it is worth it :) ... but I would rather try to get his Professionalism from 7 to 14, at the sacrifice of maybe 4 or 5 Determination points, than having a DET 20 and PRO 7 player.

Of course if you could find a Perfectionist or a Model Citizen, then you would be less likely to lose much Determination.

I have personally never seen a Model Citizen in my squad (besides the one I made when I was updating the personality scores thread made by Lysien in FM10 or 11). But I think the FM10 had a handful of them amongst the pre-loaded players.

How can we find out his exact professionalism value?

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How can we find out his exact professionalism value?

You can't. It's a hidden value.

There is however an indication via the player personality which can be seen via the assman or coach reports.

Personalities which require professionalism of 15+: fairly professional, resolute, driven and maybe resilient

even higher: professional, model professional, perfectionist, leader, born leader, model citizen

A full list of how these personality descriptions translate into hidden mental attributes can be found somewhere on here :)

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Since it can be hard to know what his other stats, who can say if it is worth it :) ... but I would rather try to get his Professionalism from 7 to 14, at the sacrifice of maybe 4 or 5 Determination points, than having a DET 20 and PRO 7 player.

Of course if you could find a Perfectionist or a Model Citizen, then you would be less likely to lose much Determination.

I have personally never seen a Model Citizen in my squad (besides the one I made when I was updating the personality scores thread made by Lysien in FM10 or 11). But I think the FM10 had a handful of them amongst the pre-loaded players.

Thx Stormen! Ive read your contribution about this subject, and you've done a fantastic job ;-)

I'll probably get him more proffesional and maybe finetune him after that :-) Would any of you ever tutor a youngster who is a Model Citizen?

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You can't. It's a hidden value.

There is however an indication via the player personality which can be seen via the assman or coach reports.

Personalities which require professionalism of 15+: fairly professional, resolute, driven and maybe resilient

even higher: professional, model professional, perfectionist, leader, born leader, model citizen

A full list of how these personality descriptions translate into hidden mental attributes can be found somewhere on here :)

Some Media Handling types can also help determine some of the hidden stats.

If he has Evasive and/or Reserved media handling type, then his Professionalism is above 14.

@Vernum: In the first post in this thread, you can see a list of what hidden values are behind the Personality types and Media Handling styles: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/213536-Tutoring-results-test

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I was working under the assumption that only the "take him under your wing on and off the field" (or whatever it is) tutoring option affected personality, but the other one only affected non-personality mental stats like anticipation and positioning. Anyone know if that's true or not?

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I was working under the assumption that only the "take him under your wing on and off the field" (or whatever it is) tutoring option affected personality, but the other one only affected non-personality mental stats like anticipation and positioning. Anyone know if that's true or not?

No ... if they work like in FM12, then one option will only affect personality, while the other will also (maybe) pass on PPMs (Player's Preferred Moves) of the tutor. Tutoring does not affect any visible stats except Determination.

I made some tests on the tutoring options a short while ago in FM12, which you can see here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/312513-Tutoring-options

I assume they work the same way still. But since I only have the demo, I have not been able to test this yet.

So that would mean:

Option 1 'I feel you can help improve his game' - Transfers PPMs, Shifts mental traits, makes tutor favoured personnel for youngster.

Option 2 'Take him under your wing and mentor him off the pitch' - Shifts mental traits, never makes tutor favoured personnel.

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Is it any point in tutoring a youngster who is a model professional, or proffesional, leader, model citizen or a determined etc youngster with media handling styles like evasive or any other positve style? Wouldn't he pick up his pa's from there?

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Is it any point in tutoring a youngster who is a model professional, or proffesional, leader, model citizen or a determined etc youngster with media handling styles like evasive or any other positve style? Wouldn't he pick up his pa's from there?

I would say probably not .... if he already have a good personality, there is little you can do to improve that. I would still take extra points in Ambition and Professionalism above Determination. So like in your own example above, I wouldn't mind losing 4-5 points of Determination if I thought I could get the same in return on Professionalism.

But usually I do not mess too much with youngsters who already have one of the really good personalities, sine i also (usually) don't know what bad stats the tutor might have. I try to get neutral and bad personality youngsters to improve.

While I am no expert on the effects of stats, I do believe that there is more effect in going from 12 to 15 in a stat, than from 17 to 20. So if he alreadyhas 17+ in a stat I would like to tutor, then I do not bother.

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Professionalism is only one of two necessary traits for a player's development. The other is ambition. The problem with the "Model Professional" personality is that you don't know how high his ambition is. I have had many Model Pros who stagnate very early and stay there. Ambitious players lacking professionalism suffers the same problem; they are difficult to handle and don't always train well.

So, if you have a Model Pro high-PA talent, pay attention to his development rate. If it is not pretty much all-green pretty much all the time, try to tutor him with a player who has more Ambition.

Edit:

Another point is that the only way a player can increase his CA is to play competitive football. Training does not affect CA, but it affects the distribution of attributes gained through match experience, and training level affects fitness. Thus, maybe it is worthwhile comparing Professionalism to Fallout's Skill Points while Ambition is an XP bonus? That's speculative of course, but my experience is that ambitious players develop faster and have less red-arrow-periods than professional players.

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Professionalism is only one of two necessary traits for a player's development. The other is ambition. The problem with the "Model Professional" personality is that you don't know how high his ambition is. I have had many Model Pros who stagnate very early and stay there. Ambitious players lacking professionalism suffers the same problem; they are difficult to handle and don't always train well.

So, if you have a Model Pro high-PA talent, pay attention to his development rate. If it is not pretty much all-green pretty much all the time, try to tutor him with a player who has more Ambition.

Edit:

Another point is that the only way a player can increase his CA is to play competitive football. Training does not affect CA, but it affects the distribution of attributes gained through match experience, and training level affects fitness. Thus, maybe it is worthwhile comparing Professionalism to Fallout's Skill Points while Ambition is an XP bonus? That's speculative of course, but my experience is that ambitious players develop faster and have less red-arrow-periods than professional players.

So proffessionalism and ambition is the only necessary traits for a player's development? I thought there were three traits, the last of them was determination.. Is this incorrect? Is determination just an important attribute for a player while playing a match?

Yes, the CA will only increase while playing competetive football. But doesn't playing in the reserves help at all? For example, staying match fit by plaing in the reserves, would that reduce the amount of decrease of CA?

Last one, have anyone experienced that a player turned into another personality, after they was to old to be tutored? From a determined personality to, let's say professional? In that case, how is it possible?

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So proffessionalism and ambition is the only necessary traits for a player's development? I thought there were three traits, the last of them was determination.. Is this incorrect? Is determination just an important attribute for a player while playing a match?

Yes, the CA will only increase while playing competetive football. But doesn't playing in the reserves help at all? For example, staying match fit by plaing in the reserves, would that reduce the amount of decrease of CA?

Last one, have anyone experienced that a player turned into another personality, after they was to old to be tutored? From a determined personality to, let's say professional? In that case, how is it possible?

Yes staying match fit is important and doing so by playing reserve matches will serve its purpose. However, since reserve and youth football is not very competitive and the leagues are ranked very low, very little CA will be gained there for 18-year-olds (and older).

I don't think that Determination in itself aids player development no. It is just that Players with high Determination often have good Professionalism and/or Ambition attributes as well, and a "Determined" player description means that he is ambitious. I think the system is that Determination takes presedence in the player personality description, so you'd know that a player with 17 Determination that is labeled "Professional" will have 18 or higher Professionalism. The system is complex and some users on here have made extensive guides to figure out all the hidden mental attributes.

Yes I have experienced players changing their personality type. When a player tutors another, the tutee's hidden attributes start "moving" in the direction of the tutor's, for better or for worse. The personality types are just a system of interconnected hidden attributes + Determination.

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Yes staying match fit is important and doing so by playing reserve matches will serve its purpose. However, since reserve and youth football is not very competitive and the leagues are ranked very low, very little CA will be gained there for 18-year-olds (and older).

I don't think that Determination in itself aids player development no. It is just that Players with high Determination often have good Professionalism and/or Ambition attributes as well, and a "Determined" player description means that he is ambitious. I think the system is that Determination takes presedence in the player personality description, so you'd know that a player with 17 Determination that is labeled "Professional" will have 18 or higher Professionalism. The system is complex and some users on here have made extensive guides to figure out all the hidden mental attributes.

Yes I have experienced players changing their personality type. When a player tutors another, the tutee's hidden attributes start "moving" in the direction of the tutor's, for better or for worse. The personality types are just a system of interconnected hidden attributes + Determination.

Thx BiggusD!

I'm not so sure about your remarks regarding determination, but I'm not in a position to test your argument :) So basically, you should tutor a player with high professional personality with high ambition, and opposite?

I've read StormenDK's mediahandling personalities analyze, and it's a great tool to find out more about the hidden attributes. Anyway, I think you misunderstood my last question. Last one, have anyone experienced that a player turned into another personality, after they was to old to be tutored? From a determined personality to, let's say professional? In that case, how is it possible? I've read somwhere that a player moved from determined personality to perfectionist, all by himself at the age of 28. Anyone had this experience?

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Influence changes as players get older so if they have high determination they might change their personality from Determined to Leader.

Maximising CA gain one must not forget training facilities. If you loan out a youngster look at the training facilities of the new club and compare it to your own. If you have top training facilities and the club you loan a youngster to is less than adequate I wouldn't loan out the player.

I have no statistical analysis of this. Quite often, though, I've been quite disappointed what the youngster gained from 30 matches at the new club. He would have gained at least the same had he stayed at my club training with the other youngsters. This is from FM12 experience, though.

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Determination is important with Ambition and Professionalism.

Out of the 3, for me, the one I want to be high the most is determination.

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If I understand it correctly, then Ambition and Professionalism help to increase the CA gain of the youngster, while Determination helps him perform better (higher ratings = more CA gain).

It might be a bit simplistic, but I imagine something like this:

CA Gain for a league match, with rating 6.5 = 5 CA points.

CA Gain for a league match, with rating 5.5 = 3 CA points.

If youngster has 15 Professionalism then he gains 1 extra CA point.

If youngster has 15 Ambition then he gains 1 extra CA point.

So a youngster with 15 in both those stats, and plays a game with 6.50 rating, he gains 7 points instead of 5.

But if he has poor Determination, then he will more often play to a lower rating. So his gain would be less.

For example, because of poor Determination he plays at rating 5.50 instead. So even with high PRO/AMB stats he only gains 5 CA points.

I am sure that the CA gain is not like this, but the example illustrates how I see it working. Higher DET/AMB will be more certain gains, while Determination might only increase the likelyhood of good ratings.

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Surely that cannot be true per match, right?

Otherwise 20 matches could lead to a CA increase of 100 points.

Afaik there was a test once that led to the conclusion that the professionalism stat was by far the most important one for CA progression.

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Surely that cannot be true per match, right?

Otherwise 20 matches could lead to a CA increase of 100 points.

Afaik there was a test once that led to the conclusion that the professionalism stat was by far the most important one for CA progression.

Absolutely not .. those are just examples :) ... It was just to illustrate how I see the three stats working.

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So determination doesn't contribute in gaining CA. High determination is only good, because we then know the tutor will have high ambition... Well, I thought that higher determination then faster you gained CA.

To create a top personality, just Tutor a young player with high professionalism with a good tutor with high ambition, or opposite. Simple formula I know ;-) And with good training facilities, great coaches and competetive matches, you will probably achieve anything :-)

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So determination doesn't contribute in gaining CA. High determination is only good, because we then know the tutor will have high ambition... Well, I thought that higher determination then faster you gained CA.

To create a top personality, just Tutor a young player with high professionalism with a good tutor with high ambition, or opposite. Simple formula I know ;-) And with good training facilities, great coaches and competetive matches, you will probably achieve anything :-)

Well it does, but indirectly. Higher Determination helps the player to secure a higher average rating, which is turn is one of the factors of what CA gain he gets from matches.

High Determination does not ensure that the player has high Ambition. You could have a player with 20 Determination, but only 2 in Ambition. BUT the Personality Type 'Determined' indicates that the player has at least 10 in Ambition.

Also be aware that the youngster's stats move towards those of the tutor. So if you have a youngster with 18 in Ambition, and get him tutored by a player with low Ambition but high Professionalism, then the youngster will most likely experience a drop in Ambition, but a rise in Professionalism.

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Surely that cannot be true per match, right?

Otherwise 20 matches could lead to a CA increase of 100 points.

Afaik there was a test once that led to the conclusion that the professionalism stat was by far the most important one for CA progression.

Professionalism helps with the training, Ambition helps with match experience. That is what I believe at least. So Professionalism should help early on in the career in the youth league, while Ambition helps between 18-23 when playing football is the most important way of improvement. Players with high Professionalism and Ambition, a good attribute distribution and high potential are rare. As I said earlier in the thread, I have experienced having to discipline model professional players nearly every month because of red arrows all over in the progress screen. In an earlier version a friend of mine bought Phil Jones as one of the biggest prospects around but he deteriorated rapidly no matter what he did. Turned out an fmrte check showed that his Ambition was like 2 or 3 while everything else was excellent. It was evidently a random attribute, so he changed it to an acceptable level and he turned his career back on track promptly.

This is why I rate Ambition as the most important attribute for player development, but of course Professionalism needs to be decent too so that he can take heavy training without losing morale. Injury proneness must be good too, as well as Natural Fitness so that he maintains a high level of match fitness and can be trusted in tough fixture programs. Determination is as mentioned important on the pitch; one of the most important of all to play well (and there is of course the need for match experience).

If the test you mentioned was done with the AI, Professionalism would be more important because they don't give youngsters a chance in the first team so they would only develop well if highly professional. I still maintain that Ambition is more important for us humans.

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I believe StormenDK has it right in post #25.

@BiggusD, I believe, (loosely) that Professionalism covers the tendency to improve and Ambition the rate of that improvement. Under the right conditions, a youngster with very high Professionalism and Ambition can become world class by age 18/19.

Also higher Professionalism appears to contribute to a longer career (as in retaining attributes)

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I have a youngster who's just turned 17 and has the following: Fairly Sporting, Level-Headed. His Determination is 14. He has me listed as a favourite of his as he came through the youth ranks.

I have two candidates to train him, the first one has Fairly Professional, Reserved, Determination 14 and the second one has Very Ambitious, Outspoken, Volatile, Determination 16.

Which of these two would be appropriate? I'm thinking it would be the second one, but I'm very worried about his media stats as this particular player has given me hassle when I complained about him not training well. I also have a low rep (Regional) and this guy has issues motivating himself to play for me.

I have also considered training him with the first player and then afterwards training him with the second one, or would that be counter-productive?

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I have a youngster who's just turned 17 and has the following: Fairly Sporting, Level-Headed. His Determination is 14. He has me listed as a favourite of his as he came through the youth ranks.

I have two candidates to train him, the first one has Fairly Professional, Reserved, Determination 14 and the second one has Very Ambitious, Outspoken, Volatile, Determination 16.

Which of these two would be appropriate? I'm thinking it would be the second one, but I'm very worried about his media stats as this particular player has given me hassle when I complained about him not training well. I also have a low rep (Regional) and this guy has issues motivating himself to play for me.

I have also considered training him with the first player and then afterwards training him with the second one, or would that be counter-productive?

Very Ambitious = 20 Ambition. If your youngster could get that while not losing too much of his otherwise easy-to-handle personality, I think that would be great. It is hard to know if first tutoring him with the other guy in the hope of increasing his professionality would be moot if he loses all of it again when you tutor him with the ambitious guy. Which one of those two tutors have you actually seen have had the most green arrows and least red arrows in their career? That's the advantage of bringing up youngsters who then tutor new youngsters in a long-term save; you get to see who have good personalities and who don't and there's no need for interpretation of vague "personalities".

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Very Ambitious = 20 Ambition. If your youngster could get that while not losing too much of his otherwise easy-to-handle personality, I think that would be great. It is hard to know if first tutoring him with the other guy in the hope of increasing his professionality would be moot if he loses all of it again when you tutor him with the ambitious guy. Which one of those two tutors have you actually seen have had the most green arrows and least red arrows in their career? That's the advantage of bringing up youngsters who then tutor new youngsters in a long-term save; you get to see who have good personalities and who don't and there's no need for interpretation of vague "personalities".

Hmm interesting...

Well the 'very ambitious' guy is unhappy about his training workload and has a mix of orange and green arrows and is new the the club this season, whilst the other guy is pleased with his schedule and has a few greens and no reds. Silly thing is, I had just assigned the kid to be trained by the professional guy and then stumbled across this thread. I'm wondering if I should keep it how it is, or change him to the 'Ambitious' guy.

Is the media handling really important?

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The media handling isn't as important as Ambition and Professionalism. The Very Ambitious guy sounds very low on Professionalism based on complaining about training levels. It is unlikely he will reach his potential. Fairly Loyal + Determination 14 = Loyalty 15 as the highest hidden attribute. It is hard to say what the other ones are, but the fairly professional one likely has Professionalism 15 which is good and at least better than what the loyal player has got. I would keep that guy tutoring him and maybe get a better senior player next season instead. Since he has mostly green arrows and is improving (at least a bit), his Ambition is probably not very low, and part of the Loyal personality type is low Ambition (and part of the Ambitious type is low Loyalty).

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/307808-The-Ultimate-Personality-Media-Handling-Guide

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The media handling isn't as important as Ambition and Professionalism. The Very Ambitious guy sounds very low on Professionalism based on complaining about training levels. It is unlikely he will reach his potential. Fairly Loyal + Determination 14 = Loyalty 15 as the highest hidden attribute. It is hard to say what the other ones are, but the fairly professional one likely has Professionalism 15 which is good and at least better than what the loyal player has got. I would keep that guy tutoring him and maybe get a better senior player next season instead. Since he has mostly green arrows and is improving (at least a bit), his Ambition is probably not very low, and part of the Loyal personality type is low Ambition (and part of the Ambitious type is low Loyalty).

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/307808-The-Ultimate-Personality-Media-Handling-Guide

Thanks for the reply, but who are you referring too as loyal and who are you saying will not reach his potential.

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I have a youngster who's just turned 17 and has the following: Fairly Sporting, Level-Headed. His Determination is 14. He has me listed as a favourite of his as he came through the youth ranks.

I have two candidates to train him, the first one has Fairly Professional, Reserved, Determination 14 and the second one has Very Ambitious, Outspoken, Volatile, Determination 16.

Which of these two would be appropriate? I'm thinking it would be the second one, but I'm very worried about his media stats as this particular player has given me hassle when I complained about him not training well. I also have a low rep (Regional) and this guy has issues motivating himself to play for me.

I have also considered training him with the first player and then afterwards training him with the second one, or would that be counter-productive?

I plugged in your youngster into the manual personality punch-card machine (linked in Biggus's post above):

Joe Youngster: "Fairly Sporting, Level-Headed. His Determination is 14"

Personality: Fairly Sporting Spo 15-20, Pro & Det & Amb & Loy all 1-14 1234 *5

The cases(det) 1-4 don't fit determination 14, but the exceptions (cases(other)) do: "*5", so....

Not Temperamental (*) Tem 5-20 and/or Pro 11-20

Not Spirit/Jovial (5) Tem 1-9 and/or Pre 1-14

Combining these we get:

Spo 15-20

Pro 1-14 (11-20 (*1))

Det 1-14

Amb 1-14

Loy 1-14

Temp 5-20 (*1) and/or (1-9 (*5))

Pres 1-14 (*5)

Media: Level Headed: LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345

Joe Youngster:

Spo 15-20

Pro 1-12

Det 14

Amb 1-14

Loy 11-14

Temp 7-20

Pres 1-14

Con 1-14

And finally the "cases" 1345 for media handling type "level headed": These don't teach us anything in this case because they overlap

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14 -- n/a

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20 -- n/a

Not Unflappable (4) Tem 1-14 and/or Pre 1-14 -- n/a

Not Reserved (5) Con 6-14 and/or Pro 1-14 -- n/a

So Joe is:

Spo 15-20

Pro 1-12

Det 14

Amb 1-14

Loy 11-14

Temp 7-20

Pres 1-14

Con 1-14

The only thing we can really tell is that his professionalism is below par, but at least he's sporting, and not overly confrontational or temperamental. He could definitely use improvement in any of these areas though.

Tutor One: Fairly Professional, Reserved, Determination 14 (assuming he's not a newgen himself)

Fairly Professional: Pro 15-20, Det 1-14 1 1234

Pro 15-20

Det 1-14 (14)

Cases (other)

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9 - n/a

Not Ambitious (2) Amb 1-15 and/or Loy 10-20

Not Loyal (3) Loy 1-17 and/or Amb 8-20

Not Spirit/Jovial (4) Tem 1-9 and/or Pre 1-14

Media Handling: Reserved: Con 1-5, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, Pro 15-20, Pre 1-14 13

Pro 15-20

Det 14

Con 1-5

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Pro 15-20

Pre 1-14

Cases (media):

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14 --n/a

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20 --n/a

Tutor One then has the following to offer:

Pro 15-20

Det 14

Con 1-5

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Pre 1-14

His professionalism and low controversy are great. He's not temperamental, buy he is loyal and doesn't have superb ability to handle pressue.

Tutor Two: Very Ambitious, Outspoken, Volatile, Determination 16

Very Ambitious Amb 20, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17 1

Amb 20

Loy 1-9

Det 16

Case (1):

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9

Media Handling: Outspoken, Volatile

Out, Vol Con 15-20, Tem 3-6, Spo 8-20 0

Amb 20

Loy 1-9

Det 16

Con 15-20

Tem 3-6

Spo 8-20

Due to his case inter-logic we know nothing about his professionalism, but his ambition is 20. Otherwise the only thing going for him is his 16 determination, only 2 points from the student, so not generally worth it unless a neutral case.

Summary:

Skip the second tutor unless you're sure you can tutor him several times with the first tutor to de-plague him of the controversy / professionalism / temperament cooties.

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I plugged in your youngster into the manual personality punch-card machine (linked in Biggus's post above):

Joe Youngster: "Fairly Sporting, Level-Headed. His Determination is 14"

Personality: Fairly Sporting Spo 15-20, Pro & Det & Amb & Loy all 1-14 1234 *5

The cases(det) 1-4 don't fit determination 14, but the exceptions (cases(other)) do: "*5", so....

Not Temperamental (*) Tem 5-20 and/or Pro 11-20

Not Spirit/Jovial (5) Tem 1-9 and/or Pre 1-14

Combining these we get:

Spo 15-20

Pro 1-14 (11-20 (*1))

Det 1-14

Amb 1-14

Loy 1-14

Temp 5-20 (*1) and/or (1-9 (*5))

Pres 1-14 (*5)

Media: Level Headed: LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345

Joe Youngster:

Spo 15-20

Pro 1-12

Det 14

Amb 1-14

Loy 11-14

Temp 7-20

Pres 1-14

Con 1-14

And finally the "cases" 1345 for media handling type "level headed": These don't teach us anything in this case because they overlap

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14 -- n/a

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20 -- n/a

Not Unflappable (4) Tem 1-14 and/or Pre 1-14 -- n/a

Not Reserved (5) Con 6-14 and/or Pro 1-14 -- n/a

So Joe is:

Spo 15-20

Pro 1-12

Det 14

Amb 1-14

Loy 11-14

Temp 7-20

Pres 1-14

Con 1-14

The only thing we can really tell is that his professionalism is below par, but at least he's sporting, and not overly confrontational or temperamental. He could definitely use improvement in any of these areas though.

Tutor One: Fairly Professional, Reserved, Determination 14 (assuming he's not a newgen himself)

Fairly Professional: Pro 15-20, Det 1-14 1 1234

Pro 15-20

Det 1-14 (14)

Cases (other)

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9 - n/a

Not Ambitious (2) Amb 1-15 and/or Loy 10-20

Not Loyal (3) Loy 1-17 and/or Amb 8-20

Not Spirit/Jovial (4) Tem 1-9 and/or Pre 1-14

Media Handling: Reserved: Con 1-5, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, Pro 15-20, Pre 1-14 13

Pro 15-20

Det 14

Con 1-5

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Pro 15-20

Pre 1-14

Cases (media):

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14 --n/a

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20 --n/a

Tutor One then has the following to offer:

Pro 15-20

Det 14

Con 1-5

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Pre 1-14

His professionalism and low controversy are great. He's not temperamental, buy he is loyal and doesn't have superb ability to handle pressue.

Tutor Two: Very Ambitious, Outspoken, Volatile, Determination 16

Very Ambitious Amb 20, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17 1

Amb 20

Loy 1-9

Det 16

Case (1):

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9

Media Handling: Outspoken, Volatile

Out, Vol Con 15-20, Tem 3-6, Spo 8-20 0

Amb 20

Loy 1-9

Det 16

Con 15-20

Tem 3-6

Spo 8-20

Due to his case inter-logic we know nothing about his professionalism, but his ambition is 20. Otherwise the only thing going for him is his 16 determination, only 2 points from the student, so not generally worth it unless a neutral case.

Summary:

Skip the second tutor unless you're sure you can tutor him several times with the first tutor to de-plague him of the controversy / professionalism / temperament cooties.

Thank you for this. I had just finished my calculations and I came to slightly different than you (obviously I have gone wrong somewhere).

Just a quick one, with tutor 2, his temp is 3-6 and the case study shows temp 1-9, would this mean that he is NOT professional as 3-6 fits inside 1-9?

Also I have a 36yo midfielder who has personality 'Leader' and media is 'plays mind games, Level Headed. Determination 15.

I cannot find Leader nor, plays mind games within the list. Any ideas?

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I did the calculations because I'd actually never done them using that awesome post before ( http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/307808-The-Ultimate-Personality-Media-Handling-Guide ). I usually use: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/261125-Player-personality-formula

So I very well could have made some mistakes myself, but it is fun doing the old manual logic thing.

The way I read the condition you mention regarding tutor 2 is this: His temperament is 3-6 because he's "Outspoken, Volatile", and this indeed does fit back into the case for his personality in the above

Case (1):

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9

The way to read this is "A Professional personality would trump a 'Very Ambitious' one and be the one listed in the player's profile, if he had that personality type, so we know he doesn't". Therefore either his Professionalism and/or his Temperament must disqualify him from "Professional" personality. As soon as we have data that fits one side of the case we've satisfied the conditions and no more information comes out of the equation.

You only get info from these if you have data that excludes one side of the equation. That is kind of a mind game right there :)

Also I have a 36yo midfielder who has personality 'Leader' and media is 'plays mind games, Level Headed. Determination 15.

I cannot find Leader nor, plays mind games within the list. Any ideas?

I'll check it out.

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Tutor 3: "36yo midfielder who has personality 'Leader' and media is 'plays mind games, Level Headed. Determination 15."

Leader: (Influence = 19) or (Influence = 20 & Determination < 20). (this is because if his determination were also 20 he'd be a "born leader" instead).

"Plays Mind Games" is a trait a player can get when they've gained a staff profile I believe. I'm not sure what stats it refers to, specifically. So we're left with "level headed".

LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345

Con 1-14

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Spo 12-20*

Pro 13-20*

* has one or the other, not both.

Cases:

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20

Not Unflappable (4) Tem 1-14 and/or Pre 1-14

Not Reserved (5) Con 6-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Unfortunately, without other information from the personality I don't think the cases are any use. So you really can't tell anything important about the guy except that he has great determination and no glaring personality problems like poor controversy or low temperament.

That said, I've started paying a lot more attention to these things this year and if they are at all important in the match engine or in dealing with player issues I think I'd rank the non-essential tutoring traits like this:

Pressure: Great for any team playing in big games. Not an issue for Sunday League teams. Players in the spotlight at the top of the world leagues though are going to constantly be under pressure of one kind or another, so I rate this highly for top teams. It's like having a professional squad or a determined squad: If your whole team can handle pressure you can dish it out to them in team talks and get good reactions, or so anecdotal experience tells me. Therefore "Pressure" can really influence your whole man management approach, and a few bad apples can really spoil things, just like with...

Temperament (high) + Controversy (low): Having these be decent should (in my mind at least) help keep stupid bookings low, keep players from whinging to the media and upsetting each other, and keep your job easier as manager when dealing with contract renewals and squad harmony issues.

Sportsmanship: I like having sporting players. I'm guessing you'll get less "unsportsmanlike conduct" cards which can only be a good thing.

Loyalty: Especially useful in those situations where you're not the biggest club but have some real stars coming through the ranks and want to keep them one more season. Like determination's little brother I think it helps keep your players enthusiastic about the club.

It's amazing how much you can influence players with tutoring especially once you start considering the hints from "Media Handling". Things like "Evasive" or "Level Headed" can count for a whole lot when you consider what they may tell you about Pressure or Professionalism.

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I did the calculations because I'd actually never done them using that awesome post before ( http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/307808-The-Ultimate-Personality-Media-Handling-Guide ). I usually use: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/261125-Player-personality-formula

So I very well could have made some mistakes myself, but it is fun doing the old manual logic thing.

The way I read the condition you mention regarding tutor 2 is this: His temperament is 3-6 because he's "Outspoken, Volatile", and this indeed does fit back into the case for his personality in the above

The way to read this is "A Professional personality would trump a 'Very Ambitious' one and be the one listed in the player's profile, if he had that personality type, so we know he doesn't". Therefore either his Professionalism and/or his Temperament must disqualify him from "Professional" personality. As soon as we have data that fits one side of the case we've satisfied the conditions and no more information comes out of the equation.

Would this not mean with his temp being between 3-6 that this is what disqualifies him? or is it just his personality which disqualifies him?

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Tutor 3: "36yo midfielder who has personality 'Leader' and media is 'plays mind games, Level Headed. Determination 15."

Leader: (Influence = 19) or (Influence = 20 & Determination < 20). (this is because if his determination were also 20 he'd be a "born leader" instead).

"Plays Mind Games" is a trait a player can get when they've gained a staff profile I believe. I'm not sure what stats it refers to, specifically. So we're left with "level headed".

LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345

Con 1-14

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Spo 12-20*

Pro 13-20*

* has one or the other, not both.

Cases:

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20

Not Unflappable (4) Tem 1-14 and/or Pre 1-14

Not Reserved (5) Con 6-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Unfortunately, without other information from the personality I don't think the cases are any use. So you really can't tell anything important about the guy except that he has great determination and no glaring personality problems like poor controversy or low temperament.

His Influence is 19. I actually gave him a new contract as I thought he would be good to tutor some youngsters next season. Yes, he is a player/coach.

Based on your summary this is what I have for him....

Con 6-14

Tem 7-14

Loy 11-20

pro 13-14

My way of thinking to get professional 13-14 is that case (5) says con 6-14 and he has 1-14 so this now becomes 6-14 and pro 1-14 and we know he has 13-20 so therefore that would become 13-14.

So con is 6-14 and pro is 13-14. Is this correct?

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Would this not mean with his temp being between 3-6 that this is what disqualifies him? or is it just his personality which disqualifies him?

His temperament being 3-6 is definitely a reason he isn't "Professional", but it might not be the only reason. That is why we don't know about the other side of that equation:

Case (1):

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9

The reason why the clause exists is because if a player qualifies for "Professional" and "Very Ambitious" personalities, "Professional" is shown in the profile, therefore, being "Very Ambitious" means he isn't "Professional" and the cases occur on that basis. It is a clever system.

So, long and short, it is his personality which disqualifies him, but we can't be certain about what part of his personality. It could be that he's professional enough but his temperament isn't good enough, or it could be both. If we knew for a fact that his temperament was >9 then it would have to be that he isn't professional enough (below 18), and that is all we'd learn from that clause.

If I'm right and you follow that I think you'll see why I'd disagree with your other analysis there. I could be wrong though.

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His temperament being 3-6 is definitely a reason he isn't "Professional", but it might not be the only reason. That is why we don't know about the other side of that equation:

The reason why the clause exists is because if a player qualifies for "Professional" and "Very Ambitious" personalities, "Professional" is shown in the profile, therefore, being "Very Ambitious" means he isn't "Professional" and the cases occur on that basis. It is a clever system.

So, long and short, it is his personality which disqualifies him, but we can't be certain about what part of his personality. It could be that he's professional enough but his temperament isn't good enough, or it could be both. If we knew for a fact that his temperament was >9 then it would have to be that he isn't professional enough (below 18), and that is all we'd learn from that clause.

If I'm right and you follow that I think you'll see why I'd disagree with your other analysis there. I could be wrong though.

So we do not take Professional 13-20 and then look at say case 1 and it has prof 1-14 so that means our prof is 13-14? Sorry if I am sounding thick. If I am wrong, then what are we doing with the figures within the case ie, Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9

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I'm not sure I follow you there, so apologies if I misunderstand:

You're talking about the third tutor, the Leader type?

We only really know that he's Level Headed, as far as calculations go, because Leader doesn't give us any "under the hood" info. From the punch-card personality machine:

"LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345"

He's either sporting or professional. If we could find out that he's unsporting we'd know he's professional. But since we don't have any other data about these attributes we just have to leave it as unknown.

The cases (1345) won't be able to tell us anything for the same reason: Without some other input they don't have much to say other than perhaps narrow down the ranges of probabilities.

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I'm not sure I follow you there, so apologies if I misunderstand:

You're talking about the third tutor, the Leader type?

We only really know that he's Level Headed, as far as calculations go, because Leader doesn't give us any "under the hood" info. From the punch-card personality machine:

"LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345"

He's either sporting or professional. If we could find out that he's unsporting we'd know he's professional. But since we don't have any other data about these attributes we just have to leave it as unknown.

The cases (1345) won't be able to tell us anything for the same reason: Without some other input they don't have much to say other than perhaps narrow down the ranges of probabilities.

I see.

Case (1):Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9 .

I think I've just got it lol. Case 1 is saying that if Mr Leader man has Pro between 1-17 then we know he is NOT professional or if his temp is 7-20 this also means he is not professional? If this is so, then what would the maximum be for Pro for him to not be classed as Professional?

Also, as we know his temp is 7-20, because this falls inline with the case 1 temp 1-9 would this make him Not Professional?

So sorry if I am sounding thick lol

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No, not thick. The language of the clauses is like De Morgan's law type stuff: Designed to do your head in.

" If this is so, then what would the maximum be for Pro for him to not be classed as Professional?"

I think you're saying "If his temperament is low (1-9) and disqualifies him from "Pro" personality, what would the maximum be for professionalism?". The answer is 20. Since either thing could disqualify him he could have Professionalism 20 and temperament 1-9 and he wouldn't be labeled "Pro".

Level Headed does give him temperament: Tem 7-20, but you'll see why the cases won't work in isolation with this. The cases are there for if you have extra data from the main personality. Let's look at them again to be sure

LH Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345

Con 1-14

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Spo 12-20*

Pro 13-20*

* has one or the other, not both.

Cases:

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20

Not Unflappable (4) Tem 1-14 and/or Pre 1-14

Not Reserved (5) Con 6-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Case 1: Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Evasive would trump Level Headed (The fact that it is a "case" indicates that this is how FM prioritizes these labels), so we know he's not evasive. This means his Pressure and/or or Professionalism stats are below 15. If both were above 15 he'd be "Evasive" and not "Level Headed".

But all we know from him being LH is that his professionalism (13-20) could be the trump (if it were 13-14). But we know nothing about his Pressure stat, so that could be the trump. Or they could both be the trump. So that clause tells us nothing.

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No, not thick. The language of the clauses is like De Morgan's law type stuff: Designed to do your head in.

" If this is so, then what would the maximum be for Pro for him to not be classed as Professional?"

I think you're saying "If his temperament is low (1-9) and disqualifies him from "Pro" personality, what would the maximum be for professionalism?". The answer is 20. Since either thing could disqualify him he could have Professionalism 20 and temperament 1-9 and he wouldn't be labeled "Pro".

Level Headed does give him temperament: Tem 7-20, but you'll see why the cases won't work in isolation with this. The cases are there for if you have extra data from the main personality. Let's look at them again to be sure

Case 1: Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Evasive would trump Level Headed (The fact that it is a "case" indicates that this is how FM prioritizes these labels), so we know he's not evasive. This means his Pressure and/or or Professionalism stats are below 15. If both were above 15 he'd be "Evasive" and not "Level Headed".

But all we know from him being LH is that his professionalism (13-20) could be the trump (if it were 13-14). But we know nothing about his Pressure stat, so that could be the trump. Or they could both be the trump. So that clause tells us nothing.

So are we taking each case one by one, and seeing if any of the descriptions trump? So case 1, our Mr Leader is NOT evasive so therefore he must have either pressure 1-14 and pro 1-14 but we do not know which because we do not have anything to tell us about his pressure stat?

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That's right. We might know one but that says nothing about the other. The only way you get information out of those cases is if you know that one of the conditions is false. There's no need to do the rest of the cases because the only reason they're set up is for when we have information outside of "Media Handling" (for the media handling cases).

IE, if we knew because of his personality that he had "Pressure 18" then we'd know that it must be professionalism that is the reason he isn't "evasive", and we could take that data on board: Pro = 1-14. Otherwise the cases are irrelevant.

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That's right. We might know one but that says nothing about the other. The only way you get information out of those cases is if you know that one of the conditions is false. There's no need to do the rest of the cases because the only reason they're set up is for when we have information outside of "Media Handling" (for the media handling cases).

IE, if we knew because of his personality that he had "Pressure 18" then we'd know that it must be professionalism that is the reason he isn't "evasive", and we could take that data on board: Pro = 1-14. Otherwise the cases are irrelevant.

Okay thank you for your help in explaining. I will take a look at another player shortly and post him up here and if you would like to analyze it to see if I have actually done it correctly. :rolleyes:

Okay here I have another player. He is not a regen and could be a possible tutor. Let's call him Salmeen. Here are his stats.

Salmeen

-------

Personality: Driven

Media: Level Headed

Determination: 20

Salmeen

-------

Ambition 10-20

Controversy 1-14

Temperament 7-20

Loyalty 11-20

Sporting 12-20*

Professional 13-20*

Determination 20

cases

-----

pro 13-17

temp 7-9

amb 10-17*

media

-----

pre 1-14

pro 1-14

temp 8-20

sport 8-20

con 6-14

pro 1-14

This is my final calculation:

Salmeen
-------
Ambition	10-17
Controversy	6-14
Temp		8-9
Loyalty		11-20
Professional	13-14
Sporting	12-20
Determination	20

Have I calculated this correctly?

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Just wanted to point out that it is very likely that the Very Ambitious (tutor 2?) player is disqualified from being labeled Professional because he has low professionality, based on the complaints about training levels.... if I got that part of your discussion right?

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Just wanted to point out that it is very likely that the Very Ambitious (tutor 2?) player is disqualified from being labeled Professional because he has low professionality, based on the complaints about training levels.... if I got that part of your discussion right?

I guess you're right with that. It makes perfect sense.

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I have a youngster who's just turned 17 and has the following: Fairly Sporting, Level-Headed. His Determination is 14. He has me listed as a favourite of his as he came through the youth ranks.

I have two candidates to train him, the first one has Fairly Professional, Reserved, Determination 14 and the second one has Very Ambitious, Outspoken, Volatile, Determination 16.

Which of these two would be appropriate? I'm thinking it would be the second one, but I'm very worried about his media stats as this particular player has given me hassle when I complained about him not training well. I also have a low rep (Regional) and this guy has issues motivating himself to play for me.

I have also considered training him with the first player and then afterwards training him with the second one, or would that be counter-productive?

This one.

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Salmeen: Driven, Level Headed

"Driven Det 20, Amb 10-20 15"

"Level Headed Con 1-14, Tem 7-20, Loy 11-20, (Spo 12-20 or Pro 13-20) 1345"

Det 20

Amb 10-20

Con 1-14

Tem 7-20

Loy 11-20

Spo 12-20* Either this

Pro 13-20* or this

Personality Cases:

Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9 -- n/a

Not Perfectionist (5) Pro 1-17 and/or Amb 10-17 --n/a

Media Handling Cases:

Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Not Confrontational (3) Tem 8-20 and/or Spo 8-20

Not Unflappable (4) Tem 1-14 and/or Pre 1-14

Not Reserved (5) Con 6-14 and/or Pro 1-14

Unfortunately our data fits all the cases and we have no exclusions, so we get no more info out of them.

cases

-----

pro 13-17

temp 7-9

amb 10-17*

I think you're reading the cases incorrectly.

Look at the first case: "Not Professional (1) Pro 1-17 and/or Tem 1-9 -- n/a"

What we know from media handling LH is:

Pro 13-20*(possible, if it's twin isn't true)

Tem 7-20

1-17 and 13-20 overlap, so even if we could eliminate the "twin" condition to Pro, any result 13-17 would satisfy the conditions meaning that we learn nothing else from the equation. Only if we had data that excluded one side of the equation would the other side give us info.

Temperament 7-20 has overlap with Tem 1-9, so again we cannot exclude that side of the equation. If we knew for a fact that Pro was say, 15, that still wouldn't mean that Tem wasn't also in range. On the other hand if we knew that Pro was 20 then it couldn't be the exclusionary trump and therefore Tem would indeed have to be 7-9 to make the equation work.

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