FM 13 - Signing wonderkid style youngsters is very difficult

[Herbert Fandel]

"POST 153"

Great ideas. I would love it if SI revisited scouting and PA for future in a similar manner to that which you advocate

[Tactic Master]

I think a lot of people are afraid of change and SI are trying to change things for the better.

Previously, you could buy almost any young star in the making for peanuts and build a team to win the prem with a small team within a few years... This is obviously not realistic at all!

Now, you have to pay very high inflated prices for young stars in the making and while this is better in my opinion, because the teams deserve cash for selling their best prospects, it obviously isn't perfect yet.

When changes are made to the game, it is a kind of a test trial and will hardly ever be perfect first time and that's why they spend so much time every year on improving the features we already have and i'm sure that FM14 will be no different.

At the end of the day, these changes are making things more realistic and it will only have a bad affect on those people who can't stand a challenge.

[ScottGooner]

This forum needs a 'like' option for posts, #153 deserves a like, so do a few other posts in this thread too.

The effectiveness of scouts needs to be reduced greatly, even for 'World Class' scouts.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Some excellent ideas in here

[RBKalle]

People aren't afraid of change TBF...

Some just don't like half-assed changes, overmedication and variations of the same not-so-great thing.

The ideas in post #153 are simply great and it would be beyond awesome having such a system implemented in FM... Unfortunately it's not gonna happen becuase it'd require way too much change, and, as admitted by SI themselves, the current modules don't allow for such drastic changes, so all SI can do without rewriting vast portions of the code is tampering with the pre-existing stuff. Which is largely insufficient to replicate such a complex reality.

Ditto for CA and PA...

The long-lasting debate about "PA or no PA" isn't worth reopening... A FM without PA would be great on paper, but we all know the moronic AI will ruin it for everyone... so we'd either get 1000 God-like players per season or the gameworld would just turn into a "whoever joins a top club will become CR7" mess.

[x42bn6]

RBKalle as positive as ever.

[Kriss]

SI aren't averse to rewriting complete modules but whether or not they take on something that complex would depend on the usual time/money/other priorities formula.

[RBKalle]

SI aren't averse to rewriting complete modules but whether or not they take on something that complex would depend on the usual time/money/other priorities formula.

I see their point, but then again we'd argue about FM Classic, the "old and downgraded" training system, tones for press conferences, taxes etc being an actual priority while THE very core of the game has been in desperate need of a substantial rewriting for half a dozen years...

[Kriss]

I see their point, but then again we'd argue about FM Classic, the "old and downgraded" training system, tones for press conferences, taxes etc being an actual priority while THE very core of the game has been in desperate need of a substantial rewriting for half a dozen years...

Yes, while I think FMC was a sound decision I too would like less bling and more remodelling of the less well working parts.

[Tactic Master]

People aren't afraid of change TBF...

Some just don't like half-assed changes, overmedication and variations of the same not-so-great thing.

I think you only speak for a select few in this thread... You only need to look at several posts in this thread, especially the ones from when this thread was started and you can see that they expect to create a power house type of team within a short space of time by getting these players on the cheap like in previous versions of FM

I think I remember one person as saying something like; 'this has never happened on previous version of FM, so why is it happening now?'

I'm not going to argue that things could be much better however, but I do think they've gone in the right direction of making it more of a challenge.

[davebl2012]

I am playing FM13 and I find many many wonderkids in Argentina and surrounding areas, I get a decent South American scout and can pick players up that cost less thn 2m. I followed on from FM 12 where this is where I got most of my long term success for. The only downside is no matter what the potential, if the rep isnt high enough you dont get a work permit. This sometimes makes the price higher but am still finding this a very reliable source....

[Mintah]

I think you only speak for a select few in this thread... You only need to look at several posts in this thread, especially the ones from when this thread was started and you can see that they expect to create a power house type of team within a short space of time by getting these players on the cheap like in previous versions of FM

I think I remember one person as saying something like; 'this has never happened on previous version of FM, so why is it happening now?'

I'm not going to argue that things could be much better however, but I do think they've gone in the right direction of making it more of a challenge.

Amen. If we are going to bang on how "unrealistic" it would be for a team to reject these high bids for youngsters, then we should also bang on the lack of realism of being able to build a powerhouse in this manner, as most FM players, me included, have done in the past. I think SI had to make a choice, and I believe they made the right choice in making it more difficult to "steal" all of the high-PA youngsters in the game at "cheap" prices.

[davebl2012]

Amen. If we are going to bang on how "unrealistic" it would be for a team to reject these high bids for youngsters, then we should also bang on the lack of realism of being able to build a powerhouse in this manner, as most FM players, me included, have done in the past. I think SI had to make a choice, and I believe they made the right choice in making it more difficult to "steal" all of the high-PA youngsters in the game at "cheap" prices.

I agree, I have had it easy before and you see a wonderkid for 250k, you got him for 250k. I now have to search much harder to find perhaps just 1 a year, but you can still find them. My point is you can still find the odd gem that does happen irl but at the same time if you want an oscar, a hazard, a neymar then you have to pay the big bucks!!!

[Cruisio1]

I really don't see how people can say the current model is realistic, it isn't realistic at all. Lets look at real football in regards to Ronaldo when at Sporting. He was clearly a player with a massive amount of potential and who at that time could have turned into a top top player, how much did he go for? £12m. He was 18 and had only played one seasons worth of football for Sporting, to me, £12m seems fair (if not a little high) currently, FM13 is asking players to shell out £30m+ bids for players with as much potential. Yes, that player will eventually become that good, but in the real world of football where your not sure how good a player will be, £30m is ridiculous

At the end of the day, everybody has a price, if the club you are trying to buy from is a low level club (which they seem to be) then that £5m could be enough for them to run as a club for the entire year, in real life, clubs would take this. In real life, theres no advantage for a team to keep just ONE player who MIGHT become brilliant. They aren't going to win anything but having just him in there. In my game Stoke City have a 17 year old kid playing for them who could be world class, they want £30m for him, which I think is fair enough, Rooney went for similar, but when the team is someone in Brazil or Holland etc and they are still asking for the same kind of money, that's completely unrealistic

Also, to delve deeper into this, the problem does not seem to translate to real life players who could be great and in fact, they seem to be suffering, let me explain: In my game, Chelsea have bought Babstuber and Subotic at the back, up front they have bought Cavani, Rodrigo (this is the 4th season) now, because of the this, players like Cahill, Bruma, Romeo, Lukaku are all easy to get and quite cheap. I managed to get Isco for 15m, Silva went to Spurs for £10m (due to other players they bought - Hamsik, Ramirez). Basically, because the AI STILL seems to be buying unneeded players for teams, players who start off the game with high PA, are quite easy to get for pretty cheap. Whereas with regens, it's completely the opposite, which it shouldn't be. The transfer system for me, at the moment, doesn't seem realistic at all yet (Liverpool just recently bought Wilfried Bony from Vitesse for £20m)

I agree with people when they say the old system was flawed, so that you could cherry pick the worlds best talent for peanuts and build up an awesome all conquering team, but for me, the best way to fix that is not to make the values ridiculously higher than they were, but to improve the computer AI. If I can scout youngsters who could be world class, then the teams of similar stature to me should also be able to. The likes of Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea etc should also be able to build up a pool of the worlds best talent, that way, you get them spread more openly across the game for values which still reflect real life football

[tajj 7]

I think you only speak for a select few in this thread... You only need to look at several posts in this thread, especially the ones from when this thread was started and you can see that they expect to create a power house type of team within a short space of time by getting these players on the cheap like in previous versions of FM

I think I remember one person as saying something like; 'this has never happened on previous version of FM, so why is it happening now?'

I'm not going to argue that things could be much better however, but I do think they've gone in the right direction of making it more of a challenge.

This really.

Whilst EnriqueZove has some excellent points in #153, a complete overhaul of the scouting system and PA won't be seen for another few FMs IMO. Certainly nothing will be done for this version.

This 'change' whilst not ideal, works as intended, and makes signing younger players with high potential a lot harder.

The essence of the OP and several replies in this thread is they are moaning about the gmae being harder.

[milnerpoint]

At the end of the day, everybody has a price, if the club you are trying to buy from is a low level club (which they seem to be) then that £5m could be enough for them to run as a club for the entire year, in real life, clubs would take this. In real life, theres no advantage for a team to keep just ONE player who MIGHT become brilliant. They aren't going to win anything but having just him in there. In my game Stoke City have a 17 year old kid playing for them who could be world class, they want £30m for him, which I think is fair enough, Rooney went for similar, but when the team is someone in Brazil or Holland etc and they are still asking for the same kind of money, that's completely unrealistic

So you think its ok for a small time team like Stoke to charge £30m for player, but not a small time team from Brazil or Holland? When was the last time Stoke sold a player for £30M?

[IWWROCKS]

I really don't see how people can say the current model is realistic, it isn't realistic at all. Lets look at real football in regards to Ronaldo when at Sporting. He was clearly a player with a massive amount of potential and who at that time could have turned into a top top player, how much did he go for? £12m. He was 18 and had only played one seasons worth of football for Sporting, to me, £12m seems fair (if not a little high) currently, FM13 is asking players to shell out £30m+ bids for players with as much potential. Yes, that player will eventually become that good, but in the real world of football where your not sure how good a player will be, £30m is ridiculous

At the end of the day, everybody has a price, if the club you are trying to buy from is a low level club (which they seem to be) then that £5m could be enough for them to run as a club for the entire year, in real life, clubs would take this. In real life, theres no advantage for a team to keep just ONE player who MIGHT become brilliant. They aren't going to win anything but having just him in there. In my game Stoke City have a 17 year old kid playing for them who could be world class, they want £30m for him, which I think is fair enough, Rooney went for similar, but when the team is someone in Brazil or Holland etc and they are still asking for the same kind of money, that's completely unrealistic

Also, to delve deeper into this, the problem does not seem to translate to real life players who could be great and in fact, they seem to be suffering, let me explain: In my game, Chelsea have bought Babstuber and Subotic at the back, up front they have bought Cavani, Rodrigo (this is the 4th season) now, because of the this, players like Cahill, Bruma, Romeo, Lukaku are all easy to get and quite cheap. I managed to get Isco for 15m, Silva went to Spurs for £10m (due to other players they bought - Hamsik, Ramirez). Basically, because the AI STILL seems to be buying unneeded players for teams, players who start off the game with high PA, are quite easy to get for pretty cheap. Whereas with regens, it's completely the opposite, which it shouldn't be. The transfer system for me, at the moment, doesn't seem realistic at all yet (Liverpool just recently bought Wilfried Bony from Vitesse for £20m)

I agree with people when they say the old system was flawed, so that you could cherry pick the worlds best talent for peanuts and build up an awesome all conquering team, but for me, the best way to fix that is not to make the values ridiculously higher than they were, but to improve the computer AI. If I can scout youngsters who could be world class, then the teams of similar stature to me should also be able to. The likes of Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea etc should also be able to build up a pool of the worlds best talent, that way, you get them spread more openly across the game for values which still reflect real life football

The model isn't realistic but the results of it are. It stops the human from stockpiling all the best talent. How many young stars do you see man city buy, develop in their U18's and then come through to the main team? Nope...they bring some in but rarely do they turn out brilliant and the players in the first team were all brought in after being established elsewhere (for the most part...Aguero, Tevez, Silva, Yaya Toure) whereas in FM the user can alot easier bring in top talent who develop into world class players. This is now circumvented by clubs wanting bigger fees for their talents. It's a bad way for a good means in my opinion

[OxfordUnitedFC]

In my man Utd save I've just signed a 16 year old English kid with 5 star potential for 500 grand because he was nearly out of contract. Was a good spot by a scout!

[fmFutbolManager]

However, in real world SAF or Arsene would need to hear a youth's name 10-20 times from different people before he will ask Jim, Martin or David to track them. For established player he certainly has TV and good scout network.

Cough *Bebe* cough.

As you were...

But, I actually agree with a lot of what has been said. I think there should be a sliding scale for the accuracy of the scout report. Some players are just special, and it's obvious they have talent. Arsenal had a shot at signing Ronaldo before United, but Wenger wouldn't pay £10m, so goes to show that not all reports are accurate. I'll formulate my thoughts shortly.

[Da_Funk]

1. Clubs may have good scouts everywhere in the world, but the donkey network is limited to a specific regions only. [ United has just expanded the Scouting network in Latin America. But in FM, since you have a guy called Toulmin, you end up knowing not only every available player but also their value. The only thing left to do is check attribute and PA. Game Over.

You can have scouts in every nation in the world and where you can AFFORD and that is reflected in the game: there can be a problem in the financials of the scouts but that's another point. And you have agents offering players to you so it's a double way. I can't truly understand your point, probably my fault. I can't understand also the Toulmin thing: have you ever played with 20/30 nations turned on? Did you manage to know EVERY available player? What about the value...are you referring to the "The scout says that you can buy the player for X money"? Well that's like in real life (as you say) because it's like the scout asking the agent the price of the player. This detail is important: in the game if you make an offer and that's accepted, you have to negotiate contract and if you fail you lose relationship with the agent. That's why is still important to scout in the game before offer: you have to make sure that negotiations are affordable.

Just because you are allowed to scout world, you end up picking every top regens all over the world in 7 days.

Hmm well that's a forced statement. Maybe I begin where you're aiming. You're talking about filtering in "Player Search" per value + age and then "select all->right click->scout"...that's an exploiting the system in my point of view but you'll understand why at the end of this (boring) post. Anyhow I assure you that if you scout without this user exploiting you can't scout the world and you'll miss important player. I'll tell you that because in latest FMs I played with 30 nations on.

2. A player who has never played a game shouldn't be scoutable. ( The problem here is that scout 3 match takes 3 months sometimes, because of non-playable league. ) The players report should be inconsistent.

S: Young Players must need Multiple Scouting.

I already thought about it time ago but that's not as simple as it appears. So a player will never be scouted because he never plays? But he doesn't play that's because he sucks, especially in youth team...well, so that's even a more broke system! I just have to scout the players that I see are getting playing time I can do that myself sorting/filtering per player cap or I put my scout to "competition->that specific youth competition" and that's it.

Saying players need multiple scouting has been stated many many times. If SI didn't do it (at least in the way you, me or whoever thinks) they have their rights, first of all gameplay issue (and thousand of threads here) like: "oh no my scouts are scouting wrong and they suck, they say Messi is crap bug bug bug" " wtf I scout the world and i got only 5 reports players in 5 monthsss fixxx it pattccchhh". Well remember this because I'll come back here at end. Anyway I can assume you can offer a player a trial to your training facilities (and teams do that continuosly in real life, Inter Milan had Cassano when he was a kid, saw he had potential but didn't sign it) and you can do that already in FM. Plus no-playing-no-scoutable will give this feature more importance. But you have to balance it financially and in terms of gameplay (you can't stole temporary continuosly players for days or weeks from minor teams, what if you play as a minor team and you have players "stolen" from your training by AI? "ozomg patch itttt" threads ). Well, right now you should have an idea, a flash on your mind...I have it but don't worry, I'll put my suggestions at the end to explain them better. I'm continuing analyzing your points.

Another addiction: it's not always true that if a player that doesn't play matches can't be scouted, because scouts go visiting other teams during trainings

3. A lot of hype up players end up disastrously and actually their number are 100x times more than players who actually succeed.

That's a main problem and need true discussion. A player career in FM is too straight LINEAR and fixed on attributes of the player profile. I'm young and talented and that will always be, and that's wrong. Again remember this because I'll discuss it.

4. A teen and their parent would certainly think thrice before moving one country to another. Yeah, it's a big club and I am destined to be next Zidane, but who knows the future. There is a reason that most of youth who became great later were signed at an 18+ age.

It's artificial but it's already in the game. I think SI did put all those "milions offer bid rejected" because of this. They simply implemented this invisible wall and right now there are user experiencing frustration. I'm sure that if SI put:

if (hardcoded conditions == 1 ) { showNews "Offer rejected because player/family don't want to"}

then we would still have complains because

1) That news popping up continuosly for every player is annoying: "That's unrealistic that every family blabla!!"

2) Why can't we know when and why are those conditions met?: "It's SI continuing hiding usssssss!!!"

We can discuss if actually it's a bad or good way to implement it, if the ratio of accepted per rejected offers is acceptable and so on...but actually there's a sign of change in this sense and that's good. Tweaking is needed but a new thing is never 100% working.

6. Peak Age. Early Bloomer, Late Bloomer, Burned Out.

Like PES? That's already in the game from my point of view. A player starts with a CA/PA and according to performances/playing time/morale/training/injuries it increases or decreases. It's just that you don't have the "track" of the CA/PA history and you can't actually track it with a graph. You can have a 26yrs old player with 110 CA and 190 PA and if you buy him and train him he will not fulfill his potential. Actually there is a drop for injured players but...wait the end of the post.

7. A lot of players like Henry seems mediocre in a league while they become World Class in another. It's down to the type of player he is and the type of game your team wants to play. Regens should have their own preference about what type of game they want to play further up in their career.

Hard to implement (in terms of programming) with actual FM. You should put happiness related to workrate/teamwork/professional attributes etc... with the pressing settings (and similar) you give to him in every match. Not so easy and understandable as you can imagine. But well right now players can reject PPM suggestions (I'm not saying that's enough). Anyhow I remember Henry (Thierry) in Juventus: he came as a winger, Ancelotti tried to play it there and decided to sold him. In Championship Manager he had amazing stats but 6 on stamina (or 8...but I'm pretty sure it was 6) and with the training system at the time it was impossible to improve but probably it was just a way to say "this will be a great player but we have to balance in a realistic way". What I want to discuss is: how many of you could think he'd become a wonderful striker? In FM terms I mean...how many would put Alan Smith as central midfielder as Ferguson did? Essien as full back? Can I do something similar with Matri and train him as side midfielder since he's both striker and side advanced midfielder (basically an inverted operation of the Henry one)? What tools do I have to say if this is a "realistic" attempt or if I'm keeping training a player in a position he will never learn? If Thiago Silva can play in midfield why can't I say the same for Bonucci or David Luiz? What prevents me from doing that? Again keep on reading cause I've got a list of things I'd like to show, mixing my comment to your post with other things pointed out by others here.

The true problem is that FM is ignoring (or is bad programmed) a variable which is fundamental in a man's activity: time.

Manager's day is 24 hours(oh really Da_Funk, u genius): what is the aim of delegating stuff to the staff (ahahahah this is nice)? To save time...but in FM it's set to user's time only, not the manager's one! How can I spend time on training+tactics+managing staff+private conversations+transfers negotiations without any penalty? There's simply no time factor. Managers don't spend time on other kids, they have some opinion with a scout or an agent but they have a true life with a true wife. There shall be introduced a weekly planwork where you can set time spent on training/tactic/locker room/scouting/any task you want. According to time distribution you can have so only much chat with an agent/private conversation with a player/meet a limited number of scouts with their report/time spent on watching tape of that kid already suggested from scout so that you can have a more accurate and less faulty report/time on the pitch to train your first team/see with your eyes the youth team to have another look at the young players because you want to make sure your assistant and your U18 are telling truth/have an update from your U18 Assistant that is knocking at the door/discuss with your physio regarding the recover of that player/approach to sign a limited number of players because you can't tell me you can follow 20 transfers together/watching your opponent/get updated from football trends so that you can still teach efficiently/whatever else you think is realistic and playable.

This way not only you can (well MUST maybe?) manage tasks between you and the staff (which has been introduced in FM this year with the Director of Football and related), but you have to learn when and how do it. One thing is managing the off-pitch tasks during season (with midweek matches too), another one is offseason when you can have plenty of time to manage transfer and contract directly. I don't think a manager between the Sunday match and the Wednesday can deal with all of those things efficiently. You have Monday+Tuesday and part of Wednesday. You have training session (one?), travels and more, you can't afford ALL the rest: you have to leave it to the staff and rely on their effort and their feedback. Do you have one match per week? Well for 5 days you can afford 2 training session (morning and afternoon), of course you may have travel time, you have more depth and more meaning in letting the team rest before/after a match (which has been reintroduced this year)....so I think I explained myself you have another layer in FM where you have different variable to deal with. You can have staff with more capable of negotiating (more useful when you have few time or don't want to deal with transfer directly) and relative attributes to add as profile staff...You can miss that talented kid because you didn't have wanted to listen to the scout that tried to contact you but you preferred to focus on match preparation...You can put more time on approaching for transfers than on meeting the agents of your players for renew (with the result of a sufficient transfer market but a series of a bad contract renews made from your DoF with lost players on free agents because he sucks) or you can focus more on contract renew (because you have high reputation player and you need more time since it's difficult) with a disadvantage of a poor transfer session (your DoF signs players that doesn't improve your team)...and you know the better the staff, the better you can rely on them and less time they might need for some specific task (renew contracts of important players...less time needed to sign high reputation players....).

And of course time is needed for scouting AND for approaching players. I don't know if someone of you might know something of NFL, NBA and NCAA...you can even have a look with some games like NCAA Football or College Hoops, I explain the concept as better as I can.

It's not realistic that you get info on a player AND you sign it all in few moments. You have to get information on him, see if he can be a technical value, contact him, his agent, see his physic/injury history...have acknowledge of his life off the pitch and so on....because you put money on him and if you're wrong you have his wage on him till the end of the contract. There should be a system (like the games I stated few moments ago) where you put some resources on him (see time and scout man for example), you get some kind of feedback after him in relation of the quality of the resource (scout man) and the time he needs to work efficiently. You can have some plus/bonus (good performances/team overperforming, staff preferred/players of the same nationality, competition/nation played, promise season objective or shirt number, you as a manager, the fact that you're following him since the beginning or so much time - now you understand importance of time factor????) or con/malus (team underperforming, bad cohesion in the team, can't promise objectives or not enough ambition, not sure to fill in your tactic, you as a manager, other teams are on him since much time). You have to "flirt" with a player through time.

The fact that you get a player's stats, you see his attributes (when? how? if?) is long debated. I mean is obviously ridiculous that you scout a 19yrs old and you immediately know that he can play fb+wb+smf+amf ON BOTH SIDES, especially if he played jsut few minutes. And I'm not even talking about attributes, just the position...

Regarding the linear career (do you remember I've talked about it some hours ago????). You have to make it more unpredictable through injury proneness (but of course "my playerss are alwayss brokennnnnn!!!!" here in this forum) and CONSISTENCY. That's where SI has to work, making consistency value more heavy and generally low for youngsters. What does it mean? That a young player will certainly be unreliable and you should not win a trophy (so easily I mean) with under 25yrs players. Playing time should be more important and have a major impact on a player development, I can't simply buy him, put him on bench and see that his stats increase so much. There are simply too many powerhouse player generated and this can simply be a problem of the 1-20 attribute (which anyhow is not true since the attribute has already a decimal interpretation in training, so there's already a semi 1-200 from my point of view) that doesn't make the development less incremental than it should be.

There's one thing SI can do actually before changing ANY feature. They should take all versions of FM from 2012 back to CM01/02, get a list of the -9 PA and -8 players of every version and then see in real life what their career was (or well...is). In CM01/02 there weren't Messi or C.Ronaldo or Neymar Benzema etc.., so those kind of players are actually regens if we take as example CM01/02...then take down some statistic and see how many -9, -8 etc players shall be implemented in the next db and how regens shall be generated, to reflect the trend of the last decade.

There are many, many, many, MANY things that can affect scouting directly or not. I saw here someone mentioned Sanchez. Well it was a BAD deal for Udinese because most of the money should have come from bonuses: if Barcelona wins than Udinese would get money because Sanchez would have been a great deal. Instead that season Barca won NOTHING and Udinese got much less money.

Plus there's another important thing I can't understand it's not implemented. Especially with big numbers, most of the transfer are paid with multi-year payments! That's many teams can reject offers! Because they don't get that money immediately and they can't benefit from it. Instead they can get more financial "penalties" from losing a player and get bad performances.

Some user here want to do an experiment? Why not trying to play removing from the Team Squad and Search Player and column "Value"?

What about a limit on the number of player you can buy? According to objective from the board? Of course if they want to develop players, they let you build facilities AND buy more kids. Or you can have 2 budget, one for first team and one for the youth.

Regarding the suggestion of a "reputation value for youth team"...that bug risky as my first thought. What if I move the player from youth team to first team and back then?

Sorry for this monstrous post, if some moderator will edit it, no problem, sure I forgot something which came on my mind and in some points I didn't explain myself well.

[RICHY-T]

All i can say is (probably been said already but not reading every post! Would take about a day lol).

I agree with the OP in a way, a club with a decent financial status lets say a Championship side? Can ask ridiculous money for a young starlet.. But this has happened to me, surely regardless of "value" when i offer around 2.5 mill for a player that plays in virtually a club that is worth around nothing (lower league sides, foreign clubs with leagues with no reputation or money in them) if there lucky for a young starlet.. Surely if its a "non-negotiable" offer the realism is that it MUST be accepted on the grounds they simply cant afford to reject it?

Stupid.

[PhroX]

As some others have said before, I think the biggest problem is the development of players. It's way way too easy to get players to reach their PA. Given this, the silly prices make sense. Teams won't spend £20M on a youngster IRL as they don't know whether or not he'll live up to his potential. In FM, he almost certainly will. Thus, he probably is worth that kind of money. SI really need to fix the long term development of players. If I've got 5 PA 180 youngsters, then, even with regular games and good training, probably only one of them should hit his potential. There's no need to completely rip out the PA system, just put a lot more uncertainty in player development.

[bleventozturk]

Some will be very highly valued but there are some players which can be found for a 'fair' fee. If the user can stockpile all the best youngsters really easily then the game would just be far too easy - if they're setting those kinds of values essentially they are saying 'not for sale'.

Agreed, and please keep it this way. I am 36 years old and I have yet to play an FM game where it is not extremely easy to build a roster full of best young talent within 3-4 seasons into the game

Having said that, it shouldn't be the case ALL the time. If the club needs money desperately, they should be more than willing to sell a world class potential youngster for 5-10-15 million euros. When AI decides for this, one of the parameters in the function should be the club's financial status and club's reputation.

[bleventozturk]

As some others have said before, I think the biggest problem is the development of players. It's way way too easy to get players to reach their PA. Given this, the silly prices make sense. Teams won't spend £20M on a youngster IRL as they don't know whether or not he'll live up to his potential. In FM, he almost certainly will. Thus, he probably is worth that kind of money. SI really need to fix the long term development of players. If I've got 5 PA 180 youngsters, then, even with regular games and good training, probably only one of them should hit his potential. There's no need to completely rip out the PA system, just put a lot more uncertainty in player development.

Couldn't agree more.

[Karlsruher38]

BINGO! This is exactly my point, this approach has ruined a really fun aspect of the game. Its obvious that SI did it on purpose because they cannot come up with a decent system for the AI managers to build squads. So instead of working on this, they hamper the players of the game. It's a complete joke.

The realism argument is pointless, if you want to talk realism then lets rip this 'GAME' to shreds because it is NO WAY realistic. I'm just SO annoyed how IS have used a hammer to crack a nut here, it makes no sense whatsoever. The fact that the SI developer seems to have gone quiet is even more annoying.

realistic or not.. the goal is reached... you won´t be able to find such high potentials with only filtering Age<18 and value >1M, you won´t be able to pick all hot prospects for peanuts

[Karlsruher38]

Couldn't agree more.

:applause:

The player development should be more variably, there´re so much factors which can destroy a career. You will never know how good exactly a player will be in some years, you can only imagine a uncertain degree.

[Zilkin]

Great suggestions in post 153 hope SI reads them. In the end though the main problem with scouting is that the reports are just waaaaaaaaaaaayyy too accurate. In real life clubs constantly make misses when it comes to players but in FM the info you get from your scouts is always rock solid with a very small error margin. As said in this threads about the worse that can happen is that you keep the guy for couple years and then sell him for a nice profit.

[bleventozturk]

Great suggestions in post 153 hope SI reads them. In the end though the main problem with scouting is that the reports are just waaaaaaaaaaaayyy too accurate. In real life clubs constantly make misses when it comes to players but in FM the info you get from your scouts is always rock solid with a very small error margin. As said in this threads about the worse that can happen is that you keep the guy for couple years and then sell him for a nice profit.

Every version it is the same issues always, never being fixed. The game LOOKS different, but it is still the same game. It is about time that we see an overhaul in transfers, squad building, scouts, etc., pretty much all AI related parts of the game. I have been complaining about scouts being way too accurate the last 3-4-5? versions. It has been acknowledged and discussed many times, but the game still has the same scouting system, no improvement at all

[kccircle]

This thread has made my night.

What happened in the past re: snapping up youth, clearly had to stop. I see the methods SI have put in this edition as a stop gap.

For me - the biggest issue is that you send your scout out to scout some random player in S America and you get a full report the next day. If you send him to report on 30 players you get them all in 2-3 days. It's not realistic.

In reality, sending a scout out to get an individual report should take a week as a minimum. Preparation to fly, flying, getting somewhere to stay, watching the game, digging for background (all aspects that should run in the background) would easy take a week to create the report.

Football Manager Live had it better. Initial report had an X report which you knew was unreliable. Scouting the same player over time got you a more realistic report after a (quite large) period of time.

As for FM13 - the large transfer fees for those managers wishing to snap up a youth within days of the regen date are the right thing for now regardless of the comments made above. If you want the game to be realistic on the transfer fee then ask yourself whether you are being realistic on the search parameters you are using.

Maybe SI should remove the regen dates and make them more random??

[MichaelBrown]

Scouting in Football Manager needs an urgent and deserved makeover. The current system in which you can identify the next Messi/CR7 at 16 is appalling. [ A lot of people playing the FM have a little idea of tactics. Their understanding of tactics ends with formations, role. They profit from this system of scouting as now they can fit their players into tactics. So they have the next Neymer at 16, by 20 he is breaking world records. ( SI or SEGA won't change it, as it's easy for new gaming enthusiasts. ) ]

In the real world, based on a player abilities (age, natural grace, attitude, personality, setup he is currently in, etc. ) Scouts decide whether they want to scout them on not at first. Normally a scout has his set of contacts who give him such information. ( e.g. I don't remember the name of that Valencia scout but in an interview he said that he has a network of around 2300 peoples to feed him and his colleagues. They tell them whom to scout which in turn is actually scouted by the club scout repeatedly. ) Since the FM allows the manager to even take over job of Director of Football and Head of Youth Development, we end up with managers doing the network job. (It makes the game easier to play though. ) However, in real world SAF or Arsene would need to hear a youth's name 10-20 times from different people before he will ask Jim, Martin or David to track them. For established player he certainly has TV and good scout network.

My suggestion for Scouting System up-gradation are:

1. The current scout expenditure isn't really proportional to scouting done. I have paid just $0.43M scouting 76% of the World. ( IRL that wouldn't even count for the Network Donkeys. ) The system of scouting range allowed is good, but it can be tamed. ( The reason suddenly playing LLM you strike a Wonderkid in Latvia. ) Clubs may have good scouts everywhere in the world, but the donkey network is limited to a specific regions only. [ United has just expanded the Scouting network in Latin America. But in FM, since you have a guy called Toulmin, you end up knowing not only every available player but also their value. The only thing left to do is check attribute and PA. Game Over. http://manutdnetwork.com/forum/topics/united-to-expand-scouting-network-to-latin-america ]

S: It would be better if the link between expenditure and scouting is more synced. Just because you are allowed to scout world, you end up picking every top regens all over the world in 7 days.

2. A player who has never played a game shouldn't be scoutable. ( The problem here is that scout 3 match takes 3 months sometimes, because of non-playable league. ) The players report should be inconsistent.

S: Young Players must need Multiple Scouting.

3. A lot of hype up players end up disastrously and actually their number are 100x times more than players who actually succeed.

S: Include an "Error Margin" type attributes (like the solidarity compensation). More younger a player, more error in the final report. + Players in your own team would have lesser margin 'because your club watches over them. This can be also said about home league. The league who never gets onto TV should have more error.

4. A teen and their parent would certainly think thrice before moving one country to another. Yeah, it's a big club and I am destined to be next Zidane, but who knows the future. There is a reason that most of youth who became great later were signed at an 18+ age. ( The fresh case of 16 year old Halilvokic family rejecting the Real Madrid 8M offer, just because the future is yet very variable, no one knows how will he end up at another club. The lack of maturity at this age will also hamper settlement into a new environment. It's better to continue the progress where you are comfortably working. )

S: Some stat like Adaptability and Will to relocate must come only after a player become 17 or plus.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Some Crazy Suggestions:

5. A top club like Arsenal, Barcelona, Real Madrid or United will rarely scout a third division Austrian League. So a Mr. Kiddo there will first come to notice of a lower or mid table first division team and affiliate, who will certainly have a better network in their home country. On the other hand we have a classic example of a Brazilian who first went to PSV and from there to El-Classico, finally to be a Ballon D'or winner . Limit results according to reputation of club. { I think this is in the FM, but I am not sure. }

6. Peak Age. Early Bloomer, Late Bloomer, Burned Out.

7. A lot of players like Henry seems mediocre in a league while they become World Class in another. It's down to the type of player he is and the type of game your team wants to play. Regens should have their own preference about what type of game they want to play further up in their career.

Great post on the whole, although I think the ''burned out, peak age'' type system is too far-fetched for me.

[fmFutbolManager]

Okay I've just signed a 5 star potential player for £500k I was expecting the reported £20m fee, but got him easily. Unless I'm doing something wrong..?

[andrew bowditch]

Can you find me one example where a club has offered £35M for a low reputation kid? If we're going to play the realism card then you have to look at it from both ways.

Andy Carroll?

[milnerpoint]

He wasnt a low rep kid, he was, at the time, one of the most highly rated young English strikers in the UK.

[hypertoon]

I havent had any issues so far... I've signed about five or six, 5* potential players all for next to nothing... yes I have had a few ask for stupid money and some have had silly release clauses but I just ignore them and find the gems.....

[Da_Funk]

Nope, he was 21 and played 80 matches with Newcastle...not a low reputation and not exactly a kid.

Danny, 25 yrs old, but moved from Dinamo Moscow to Zenith for €30 millions. Not a kid but one of the most crazy transfer on Europe.

Denilson, 23 yrs old, from San Paolo to Real Betis, €30 millions. Can't find any under 23.

[hypertoon]

I can understand the viewpoint and frustration of the OP .... especially once you get past say £20m and even more so when the club isnt even worth that..... in the end of the day IF a club in our 2nd division had the new messi potentially in their ranks obviously they would want as much as they can but if an offer comes in for 10, 15 , 20 or even 30m then they would sell...... I doubt it would ever get above those fees...and certainly not some of the fees some AI clubs ask for..

So yeah it's one thing the club asking for a price.. but the price has to be fair

[tajj 7]

If the club is rejecting £35 million then HE IS NOT FOR SALE

It's not a hard concept.

[x42bn6]

If the club is rejecting £35 million then HE IS NOT FOR SALE

Some clubs would love to get £35m for a player. Especially when you consider the fact that the club might not be able to hold on to the player anyway.

For some clubs, the issue could be that the player is not for sale at £35m.

(Of course, this doesn't apply to the top clubs, but not everyone plays a top club.)

[Karlsruher38]

the unrealistic asking price and the money is secondary, with this feature is wanted that humans won´t be able to pick all hot prospects for peanuts

[smallclone]

As for FM13 - the large transfer fees for those managers wishing to snap up a youth within days of the regen date are the right thing for now regardless of the comments made above. If you want the game to be realistic on the transfer fee then ask yourself whether you are being realistic on the search parameters you are using.

It's not realistic though is it. Because only the top club seem to eb able to afford to buy young great talent. It shouldn't be like this all the time.

[chazray34]

I may be in the minority here, but I think that the youth system is actually quite realistic in FM 2013, quite moreso than in FM 12. In an example earlier, someone mentioned a lower league Hungarian side rejecting a huge transfer offer upwards of 25 million. While that sounds like a huge offer, I look at it like this:

Imagine you're an owner or a manager at that lower tier club, struggling financially as you try to find ways of getting your team to and from away matches or as you try to relay your pitch after a horrible winter. You have been trying to piece together a team that can make some kind of a hopeful impact in the league and scratch their way to promotion to the next division on the meager gate receipts you have been getting from your loyal fans. Excitedly, you have been watching the youth ranks around your club, trying to see who might be a good invite into your next big batch of young talent for your academy (if you're even lucky enough to have such a thing). After watching hundreds of games and making dozens of phone calls and visits, you finally locate the next great gem. He may never have kicked a ball professionally, but his talent is undeniable. And he actually agrees to join your side's youth system.

He is Hungary's version of Neymar, Messi, or Cristano Ronaldo. He's that player that you can see has immense quality and will be almost an instant impact in your country's international fixtures for years to come. He has finally become of an age that he is eligible to play in your youth fixtures and his first youth contract is drawn up. For you, this is just the first in a long line of contracts you want to see him sign. This player could be a key stepping stone toward promotion to the next division. He could lead you to the Premier and possibly beyond to European glory in either the Europa or daresay the Champions Leagues. Prize money and trophies hang on this young man's boots. But in March you receive a phone call from a powerhouse side with tons of cash to flash at your leaking bank accounts. They offer you 10 million for the future of your country and the services of your greatest hope.

This is the point at which I, as the one in charge, start to ask myself "How much is the future of my club worth?" 10 million could do so very much for the expansion of the clubs facilities, funding payroll for a more exciting brand of player, or even employing better staff to encourage better development on and off the pitch. But is it enough? What about the glory of the team and how this youngster's quality can aid in winning trophies and the additional revenue a promotion to the top flight would bring? Or how a better brand of player would be drawn to playing alongside this icon of Hungarian football? Can you put a price tag on the revenue and achievements that selling this player would cause you to miss out? 15 million? 20 million? How about 30 million? When the price gets up to that point, that's when the club is saying "Thanks, but no thanks. We'd rather hold onto him... but if you want to give us 30 million, how can we really say no?"

I shift from Hungary back to the English Premier League and look at Southampton and their academy. They find Gareth Bale, a once in a lifetime kind of talent... wait, there was also that Walcott fellow. So a twice in a lifetime talent... hold on a second, I think there was an Ox that came from there too, wasn't there? But sure, a thrice in a lifetime kind of... Oh yeah, Luke Shaw... There is a comedy of riches at a club like Southampton, who have argueably one of the best academies in all of football. People toss out the 10 million and 12 million price tags that Arsenal paid for a couple of these talents as if it is a standard for quality, international-level players, but this just puts things into context. Southampton is a thriving, Premier League level team that is well-structured and well-supported by its fans. Kids are lining up in droves to be a part of their development academies, wanting to be that next great talent to emerge from the ranks. Southampton has the opportunity to look at their individual players and the vast wealth of youth at their disposal to decide which pieces they can afford to move on and which to keep for themselves. At a club like this, 10 million and 12 million are quality business transactions as they have even more talent waiting in the wings to help continue their tradition and strive for success in the league.

As the game plays right now, FM 13 has quite a solid and realistic new-gen system that makes some talents "overpriced" by having clubs ask ridiculous prices as a way of saying "not interested". Teams not rolling over their 5 star talents for 100k like in FM 12 is an improvement to the system, in my opinion. Now, when I look at a potential youth signing, I always have a price that I'm willing to go to for the kid's services. If I hit that price and they don't approve the sale, I move on to the next target. There are thousands of other teams with a fresh batch of youth that I can skim through. But that's just my take.

[tajj 7]

I can understand the viewpoint and frustration of the OP .... especially once you get past say £20m and even more so when the club isnt even worth that..... in the end of the day IF a club in our 2nd division had the new messi potentially in their ranks obviously they would want as much as they can but if an offer comes in for 10, 15 , 20 or even 30m then they would sell...... I doubt it would ever get above those fees...and certainly not some of the fees some AI clubs ask for..

So yeah it's one thing the club asking for a price.. but the price has to be fair

Thing is everyone is complaining it's unrealistic that some Hungarian div 2 rejects £10 million for a player when that is more than the club is worth.

yet they don't seem to realise it's unrealistic that they would have found this player in the first palce and that they are bidding an absurdly high transfer fee for an unknown, unproven youngeter.

If you find your players more realistically then you will see the fees you pay for them are also more realistic.

An update to the scouting system, PA system, etc. is a complete side issue.

This change is preventing Human managers from stockpiling cheap wonderkids and it's clearly working. The desired result at the end of the day is more realistic and a more challenging game.

[EnriqueZove]

I may be in the minority here, but I think that the youth system is actually quite realistic in FM 2013, quite moreso than in FM 12. In an example earlier, someone mentioned a lower league Hungarian side rejecting a huge transfer offer upwards of 25 million. While that sounds like a huge offer, I look at it like this:

Imagine you're an owner or a manager at that lower tier club, struggling financially as you try to find ways of getting your team to and from away matches or as you try to relay your pitch after a horrible winter. You have been trying to piece together a team that can make some kind of a hopeful impact in the league and scratch their way to promotion to the next division on the meager gate receipts you have been getting from your loyal fans. Excitedly, you have been watching the youth ranks around your club, trying to see who might be a good invite into your next big batch of young talent for your academy (if you're even lucky enough to have such a thing). After watching hundreds of games and making dozens of phone calls and visits, you finally locate the next great gem. He may never have kicked a ball professionally, but his talent is undeniable. And he actually agrees to join your side's youth system.

He is Hungary's version of Neymar, Messi, or Cristano Ronaldo. He's that player that you can see has immense quality and will be almost an instant impact in your country's international fixtures for years to come. He has finally become of an age that he is eligible to play in your youth fixtures and his first youth contract is drawn up. For you, this is just the first in a long line of contracts you want to see him sign. This player could be a key stepping stone toward promotion to the next division. He could lead you to the Premier and possibly beyond to European glory in either the Europa or daresay the Champions Leagues. Prize money and trophies hang on this young man's boots. But in March you receive a phone call from a powerhouse side with tons of cash to flash at your leaking bank accounts. They offer you 10 million for the future of your country and the services of your greatest hope.

This is the point at which I, as the one in charge, start to ask myself "How much is the future of my club worth?" 10 million could do so very much for the expansion of the clubs facilities, funding payroll for a more exciting brand of player, or even employing better staff to encourage better development on and off the pitch. But is it enough? What about the glory of the team and how this youngster's quality can aid in winning trophies and the additional revenue a promotion to the top flight would bring? Or how a better brand of player would be drawn to playing alongside this icon of Hungarian football? Can you put a price tag on the revenue and achievements that selling this player would cause you to miss out? 15 million? 20 million? How about 30 million? When the price gets up to that point, that's when the club is saying "Thanks, but no thanks. We'd rather hold onto him... but if you want to give us 30 million, how can we really say no?"

I shift from Hungary back to the English Premier League and look at Southampton and their academy. They find Gareth Bale, a once in a lifetime kind of talent... wait, there was also that Walcott fellow. So a twice in a lifetime talent... hold on a second, I think there was an Ox that came from there too, wasn't there? But sure, a thrice in a lifetime kind of... Oh yeah, Luke Shaw... There is a comedy of riches at a club like Southampton, who have argueably one of the best academies in all of football. People toss out the 10 million and 12 million price tags that Arsenal paid for a couple of these talents as if it is a standard for quality, international-level players, but this just puts things into context. Southampton is a thriving, Premier League level team that is well-structured and well-supported by its fans. Kids are lining up in droves to be a part of their development academies, wanting to be that next great talent to emerge from the ranks. Southampton has the opportunity to look at their individual players and the vast wealth of youth at their disposal to decide which pieces they can afford to move on and which to keep for themselves. At a club like this, 10 million and 12 million are quality business transactions as they have even more talent waiting in the wings to help continue their tradition and strive for success in the league.

As the game plays right now, FM 13 has quite a solid and realistic new-gen system that makes some talents "overpriced" by having clubs ask ridiculous prices as a way of saying "not interested". Teams not rolling over their 5 star talents for 100k like in FM 12 is an improvement to the system, in my opinion. Now, when I look at a potential youth signing, I always have a price that I'm willing to go to for the kid's services. If I hit that price and they don't approve the sale, I move on to the next target. There are thousands of other teams with a fresh batch of youth that I can skim through. But that's just my take.

Totally agree with you. I have played LLM and have seen my potential players being sold for peanuts. 5-8M on the hand in league 2 may mean a lot of training, coaches, etc. But you can't replace them as better player don't want league 2. In the balance you are stuck in league 2, until after some hit and trial you strike the best tactics.

[Da_Funk]

Totally agree with you. I have played LLM and have seen my potential players being sold for peanuts. 5-8M on the hand in league 2 may mean a lot of training, coaches, etc. But you can't replace them as better player don't want league 2. In the balance you are stuck in league 2, until after some hit and trial you strike the best tactics.

Yeah, regarding LLM and AI I made a post some time ago

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/241531-FM11-Heathxxx-Lower-League-Management-Approach/page11

There's to estabilish the value we give to money and the value AI gives to money plus the value we give to unvaluable assets and the value given by the AI.

I think everyone finds very strange how the AI signs the staff right?

[rockingrugger]

I'm Villarreal in La Liga. Just to give you an idea of what the PA coach ratings are like in my team, Giuseppe Rossi is considered to have a 4 star PA.

In terms of regens, I've brought in a 4.5pa regen for 50k, a 3.5 and a 4.5pa both for free.

In terms of real players, I got Adryan (4.5) for 875k, Raphael Guzzo (4) for free, as well as Romario (4) for free in Jan, and Demirci (4) for free in June 2013.

I've signed 3 other players with PA's between 3 and 3.5, and each transfer fee was below 550k.

All this was in less than a year. It IS very very possible to sign young players. It's a lot harder than previous fm's, but I suppose its a lot more realistic which therefore makes it harder for us to stockpile all the good young players!!

[BiggusD]

I have signed three excellent prospects with Blackburn season two. Paid over £20m for them all, but they will all become at least continental-class. In addition at least three-four of my own will become Good PL players, although a bit of work is required on those.

[Crawf]

Surely it is acautally realistic that a club would not sell young players for big money, why not keep them a couple of years when they`d be worth huge money?

[PoolFan]

Surely it is acautally realistic that a club would not sell young players for big money, why not keep them a couple of years when they`d be worth huge money?

Well it's not realistic for a team from the Norwegian second division to turn down a offer of ten million plus for a sixteen year old who hasn't kicked a ball. Now I get the argument that players should not be able to filter for youngsters and sort by price to find out who the best prospects are but this artificial way of stopping this by the computer AI just ruins the game for me. It's a cheap mechanic that does nothing for the game.

[scott MUFC]

I just got quoted £12.5m for a French Newgen... yet I buy 2 from dortmund and 1 from west ham at 3.2m

ya.... and you can get wonderkids for cheap. Adryan anyone?

10m for Nowegen? you sure, I found scandanvia to be loaded with Bargains, I got a 5 star on my F12 united save from finland for 120k

[mixmkz]

South American Newgen, if you catch them on their first contract, always have some ridiculous low release clause. I've bought 5 star striker, a 4 star full back, a 4.5 star keeper for 1mm each.