FM 13 - Signing wonderkid style youngsters is very difficult

[Betfair39]

there were some kid in Turkish league i offered value was like 200K € stupid cheap club rejected in the end of negotiations i offered 30M and they didnt accept

[Bababui]

You are not getting it are you. This isn't about the value, this is about nonsense clubs not selling a 15/16yr old who is playing in their reserve team for more money than the ENTIRE club is worth.

On the other hand, if the youngster was that good he would be in the first team and would be untouchable because he could earn the team perhaps hundreds of millions in the ECL and in shirt and TV revenue. Normally I dont agree with sO using gamey methods to make the game harder; but this one makes sense. Also, there are various child labor law issues at play.

[MakaveliPT]

This topic is a bad rant tbh, i am too one of these players that build a team of youngsters with a lot of potential and watch them grow as we dominate the world, although i totally understand fm 13 system on this. They shouldn't be cheap, at all! What i think is wrong is, if i'm trying to buy some wonderkid from barcelona and i offer 20M i can understand that they refuse, i can even understand that the kid wants to stay on Barcelona's reserves or U-18 and one day play for their main team, what kinda bothers me is when you are trying to pay 10 or 20M to some low level team that never seen that type of cash they refuse.

We all had boards on lower teams selling our players without our permission because they thought the values were too good to be denied, why is this not happening with the AI? If some russian low level broke team has some wonderkid i want and i'm paying 100 times his "value" their board should have a party for selling him for that much.

Still, the all argument about how you should to be able to buy any wonderkid for nearly nothing just because he hasn't proven anything is just plain stupid imo lol, he hasn't proven anything to you either right? you are still trying to buy him right? Because you know his potential righttttt??? Then why would the AI not do the same? lol

[danthemanwhocan]

Well would the answer be a dynamic youth team rep. So a separate rep from the club as a whole. For example, West Hams rep is like 6500 well their youth set up rep should be 8500, and that will change depending on youth facilities, coaches, how much money is invested in the youth squad, and the QUALITY of players they churn out. You might have all the money in teh world invested but if you hire pants coaches, then you will never produce great players.

I know we have a star rating for their youth set up but that goes down based on money and if you can keep that star system up.

What im talking about is a numerical reputation that is based of multiple factors. Money invested into the youth team, coaches and facilities. So the better players you develop the higher the value that you can reject as you have a proven methodology of producing youngsters. So if Bulgarian lower league side produces a top class player the chances are that he was class already so they haven't spent money developing him, or maybe they have, remember we don't see their equivalent of the Juvenile teams that barca have for example. So even if he wasnt going to be top class hey would at least expect to recoup the money they spent on bringing his family over, the schooling he received any treatment on injuries.

Also maybe make youth players up to about 16 have a minus or a 0 Potential which is influenced over the next two years by the facilities, coaches and managers investment. Use the usual mental attributes and hidden attributes to cap how many can reach 160-200.

So for example you could sign joe bloggs who is valued at 120k by some bulgarian team, he is valued that high as thats his VALUE TO THE TEAM If you buy him for 1mill at 16 when you dont have a definitive potential, he may be a great signing, or he could flop, maybe he has low adaptability and that hampers his development as he is homesick, or he has terrible professional stat and is constantly making waves in the club. Plenty of other variables that you have now.

hope this makes sense i am work and cant really give this thought the attention it deserves...

[Smac]

You are placing too much importance on the 'value'. It isn't really meant to be indicative of much. Just like I have a player 'valued' at 2 million, but I can't sell him for 200k.

You are placing too much importance on "words". "Words" are only puppets that don't mean anything. /argument

"Value", by definition, must relate to something tangible. If it is only a stylistic formality, such as wearing a necktie (why do we do that anyway?) then it has nothing to do with anything and isn't "value" at all.

SI have also said the values of youth are kept artificially low to prevent the human user for bypassing scouting by filtering high-value youth, which is a positive step.

I disagree. It is a negative stop-gap measure that has just about outlived its usefulness. Contrivances like that are very few and far between in FM because it is meant to be a realistic simulation. I have no doubt that this will be "un-stepped" whenever finances and/or scouting are ready for it. Just a bit of competition for the world's best players would go a long way toward ameliorating the issue, but there are many more things that can be done too.

As the game stands I'd trust my scouts over any valuation of a young player anyways. That it is too easy to get good scouts and too easy to scout further point out that this has outlived itself.

[Herbert Fandel]

"Value", by definition, must relate to something tangible. If it is only a stylistic formality, such as wearing a necktie (why do we do that anyway?) then it has nothing to do with anything and isn't "value" at all. .

It does, it relates to their age, the length on their contract, their ability, their reputation and so on, it is not just a made up random number. It is slightly artificially managed, in that it is kept from going too high for long term contracted youth. The only thing it doesn't have much bearing on is the fee you could potentially sign them for. It works both ways, players tansfer listed for £0 don't suddenly have a 'value' of zero, simply a market value of zero. Don't confuse it not being related with market value with it not being related to anything.

I disagree. It is a negative stop-gap measure that has just about outlived its usefulness. Contrivances like that are very few and far between in FM because it is meant to be a realistic simulation. I have no doubt that this will be "un-stepped" whenever finances and/or scouting are ready for it. Just a bit of competition for the world's best players would go a long way toward ameliorating the issue, but there are many more things that can be done too.

As the game stands I'd trust my scouts over any valuation of a young player anyways. That it is too easy to get good scouts and too easy to scout further point out that this has outlived itself.

I completely agree the scouting system for youth and their potential ability has had its day. But you saying you trust your scouts over a players valuation only proves my above point. That the value is based on some factors, but not the fee that either you are willing to pay or that the club is willing to sell for.

In terms of you trusting your scouts ability over simply searching for high-valued youth, in FM12 they would have overlapped completely. In FM 13 they won't, so your interpretation of trusting your scouts more shows it is working as intended.

[Dave80]

All you need is the right scouts in the right area and you'll find yourself a few gems through luck, I've got 2 or 3 wonderkids at Newcastle, all English - one of them started at the club (Remie Streete) and the other 2 are NewGens that I got for about £600k each. it's a game of chance when it comes to finding Wonderkids, the more scouts you have (good ones) the more likely you are of finding them.

[andrew bowditch]

I think it is much better in FM13, it was far to easy in FM12 to buy young players with great potential for peanuts.

100% agree

[tajj 7]

Hey guys we can't really do this right now so instead we are going to ruin a really popular aspect of the game, as a stopgap. What kind of logic is that?

"to ruin a really popular aspect of the game", it's not ruined, people have completely destroyed that argument already in this thread, look at that rediculous Brazilian newgen striker who was bought for just 4.6 million Euros and is now valued at 5 times that.

You can still build a team of young players and sign them at low values, they have just made it harder. The rest of us are managing just fine so maybe you need to step your game up a bit.

Previously it was far too easy to just bypass your scouting searches look at the player search for high valued 16/17 year olds, send a scout our for a quick report and then sign a 16 year old who has played no football for less than £1 million and you'd have a potential world class player on your hands. With one seasons transfer budget for an average premiership team you could cherry pick the best potential in the world and build a world class team. Far far too easy.

Now they have made it more difficult for you, but they've hardly ruined it

Yeh it's a 'stop gap' method until a better PA/scouting system is developed but it's still an improvement on previous versions of the game.

You are not getting it are you. This isn't about the value, this is about nonsense clubs not selling a 15/16yr old who is playing in their reserve team for more money than the ENTIRE club is worth.

Thing is your not getting it either, whilst the situation you describe isn't realistic, neither is you attempting to buy the player in the first place. It's complete "nonsense" as you put it that you would be offering £10 million for a 15 year old Norweigan from some obscure club, who has played no first team football in the first place, you wouldn't be offering the money if you couldn't see his potential so easily. Your offering those high prices because you know that it's still cheaper in the long run than buying him when he's fully developed. Again using that example in this thread of that Brazilian. If he's still got potential (which I reckon he would at 20) what would you pay for him? If you had missed him and the AI had found him and dveloped him? £50 million, £60 millio, £70 million? He's already a world class complete forward by the looks of it at 20. Paying £10 or even £20 million for him at 16 doesn't look silly when you know he's going to become that good. That's the route of the problem, you shouldn't know.

At the moment SI can't change this, your scouts are too accurate and PA is set, so as I said they have made these newgens unbuyable early in their career to make the game more realistic in the long run. If you continue to scout that target, keep him on your shortlist, he'll gets some games, will develops a bit I think you will see him become more available at a more reasonable price.

I've just bought a newgen in my game from Inter Milan, he's costing me £25 million pounds, but my scouts have told me to sign him at whatever price, I've been watching im for ages and when he came into the game at 16, Inter wouldn't entertain any of my offers, now 2 years later after he has developed a bit, been on loan at a couple of clubs, they came back with an acceptable sale price.

[RBKalle]

I can't believe so many are satisfied with the game placing artificial bumps on the human players' path just because the AI isn't "smart" (ie. good) enough to tell a "Messi" from a "Macheda".

Moreso, if player values are basically a lie, what's the point in having them to begin with?!

In past iterations I clearly remember outlandish "sale values" for barely ok rotation players... A decent right-back valued 3M would and should probably leave for twice that price, and surely ANY club would FedEx him within one business day for like 10M... Instead FM kept on refusing offers or coming up with insane counteroffers as if the player in question was the only world class fullback and not just an average one.

At least with youth players it was slightly less idiotic, and while top prospects from top clubs didn't come cheaply, it was still possible to sign promising youngsters with good attributes for reasonable fees. 3-4M for a 17yo who's just good enough for cup's early rounds or for easy league fixtures is fair enough IMO... He can turn out great, but he can also turn out crap.

People focus too much on "Messi", forgetting he and C.Ronaldo are once in a generation (well, twice in this case) talents... Not every single 17yo we are trying to sign is going to become a world beater within two seasons... actually most of them are just decent prospects who may or may not have a future at our club.

Did Man City invest millions to sign a young Joe Hart? The likes of Giuseppe Rossi and Vito Mannone were signed from top Italian youth setups for a pittance... and the list could go on and on, featuring young, UNESTABLISHED, young players from all over the world.

Sure, sometimes a club decide to splash the cash on a kid, but it's rarely on someone who hasn't shown a lot already at his previous, smaller club.

And let's not forget there are nations and leagues where the f'n star player of the team would be gladly sold for 2M (if anything just because he would refuse to extend his current contract knowing there are foreign clubs wanting him... so it'd be a matter of "sell now or lose the player AND the money when he leaves on Bosman") so I can't really wrap my head around the idea of, say, Hammarby, Slovacko or Ballymena Utd trying to negotiate a deal for money that exceeds the total value of the whole bloody starting XI. For a young backup!!!

Is it more difficult now? Sure it is, but it's just the "team talk from newly appointed manager will not work" sort of cop-out solution. It's an easy way to cover up for AI's shortcomings that were harder to fix the right way.

Since AI will still favour a fatally flawed 80CA/160PA youngster over a well-balanced 110CA/130PA one, the market module has been tweaked and both will be sold for a fee worth of a top-half EPL player.

Problem solved

[ALH]

I too have noticed the change....and welcome it. It is harder to pick up new regens and youth than it was in previous versions.

However, I have still managed to pick up these players for what I would call 'fair' transfer values by taking advantage of the 'Additional Clauses' options. For example, I had a 5mill bid turned down for a 4.5 star youngster, with them stating they wanted 9.5m. Well, actually, thats not a bad value for a player who seems to have all the attributes of a future star. So I bid 2.5mil up front, 2.5 after 30 games, an amount for each of those first 30 games and a couple mill for his first international cap....total approx 9.5mill. This bid was then accepted.

Which seems fair. I buy a possible future talent for a 2.5mil outlay. If he performs over the next few seasons and becomes a regular and maybe picks up his first cap, he's definitely a 9.5mill player. If anything, I would say the new system is more realistic...but then its just one opinion. In previous versions I could just pick him up for 2.5 and take on no risk as Ill likely recoup this in a few years if he doesnt perform.

[BiggusD]

The solution: scouts shouldn't find youth players with "high potential" at all. The only way a scout could realistically spot such talent is through watching competitive matches in which the target plays and impresses. If a Norwegian second division side like Kristiansund BK got an amazing talent, someone who could become a Premier League player, the clubs that would realistically know about him after having impressed for a season or two would be the other teams in the division and their affiliates as well as the local top division clubs with the resources to find out - namely Molde, Ålesund and Rosenborg. Since the Norwegian second division is not televised and only covered by very local news papers, even the best PL scout in Scandinavia would have no way of knowing about any talents playing there, and that league is not competitive enough for a PL scout to bother with it in any case.

However, once that former Kristiansund BK player is picked up by Molde, Ålesund or Rosenborg and impresses for them, the matter changes greatly. Teenagers who can handle top level Norwegian football over time will always be interesting for larger clubs. They will get national coverage too, so it is realistic to assume that PL scouts would know about them quite early.

And then about the asking price. The highest transfer fee ever received in Norway was around £7m for John Carew when he was young and promising, and Rosenborg was playing in Champions League. Now no Norwegian club is even close to Champions League play, and 2-3 millions are seen as acceptable values for the biggest stars in the league. It is ridiculous that smaller clubs than Rosenborg would turn down 10 times that for players that has never set foot in a competitive match - ridiculous in every way!

So SI, sort it out! Don't let scouts recommend (or even find) youngsters from foreign nations who don't play first-team football! The only exceptions would be through affiliates, agents or favoured personel links, media coverage or luck (for instance while scouting an established first-teamer in an early cup match).

[RBKalle]

"to ruin a really popular aspect of the game", it's not ruined, people have completely destroyed that argument already in this thread, look at that rediculous Brazilian newgen striker who was bought for just 4.6 million Euros and is now valued at 5 times that.

Fair play to him...

And it's not that unusual anyway... Alexis Sanchez costed Udinese €3M and they sold him to Barça at 25... According to your logic, Udinese should have never been allowed to pay him so cheaply, even at 17, because six years down the road he met the expectations and his value went through the roof?

Previously it was far too easy to just bypass your scouting searches look at the player search for high valued 16/17 year olds, send a scout our for a quick report and then sign a 16 year old who has played no football for less than £1 million and you'd have a potential world class player on your hands. With one seasons transfer budget for an average premiership team you could cherry pick the best potential in the world and build a world class team. Far far too easy.

Not entirely true... As said above, AI scouts can't tell the difference between good prospects and "crap players with high PA"... to them it's all the same... Hence the plethora of awful newgens, mostly pacey wingers who should have pursued a career as sprint runners, still getting 4* PA and who "should be regarded as an important first team player" despite their pace being the only skill they possess.

Same goes for other uneven or downright flawed players, like CMs who can't pass, DMs with single-digits aggression and bravery, Jan Koller-sized wingers etc..

Filtering youth players for value is, in my own experience, the WORST way to find good prospect because you'd have to navigate through a lot of garbage to uncover one good prospect. Ordering/scouting for key attribute, especially those who are "rare" in newgens (decent mental traits mostly), worked much better, and value wasn't often as high.

Because, once again, a well-rounded but not impressively PA'ed player will be valued LESS than a flashy but useless kid with 17 pace, acceleration and free kicks but with 7s in other key areas.

Yeh it's a 'stop gap' method until a better PA/scouting system is developed but it's still an improvement on previous versions of the game.

It's as much of an improvement as it the catch-22 situation with team talks and reputation...

Thing is your not getting it either, whilst the situation you describe isn't realistic, neither is you attempting to buy the player in the first place. It's complete "nonsense" as you put it that you would be offering £10 million for a 15 year old Norweigan from some obscure club, who has played no first team football in the first place, you wouldn't be offering the money if you couldn't see his potential so easily. Your offering those high prices because you know that it's still cheaper in the long run than buying him when he's fully developed. Again using that example in this thread of that Brazilian. If he's still got potential (which I reckon he would at 20) what would you pay for him? If you had missed him and the AI had found him and dveloped him? £50 million, £60 millio, £70 million? He's already a world class complete forward by the looks of it at 20. Paying £10 or even £20 million for him at 16 doesn't look silly when you know he's going to become that good. That's the route of the problem, you shouldn't know.

That's another issue...

Most newgens are flawed one way or another, but a few of the good ones are TOO GOOD TOO EARLY and their development is never in danger of flatlining...

Those players, albeit too many, should and ought be signed for whatever the price at the earliest age possible, but that still shouldn't apply for every half-decent 17yo with barely ok CA, PA and attributes. Especially if he hasn't played a single minute of professional football.

At the moment SI can't change this, your scouts are too accurate and PA is set, so as I said they have made these newgens unbuyable early in their career to make the game more realistic in the long run. If you continue to scout that target, keep him on your shortlist, he'll gets some games, will develops a bit I think you will see him become more available at a more reasonable price.

I disagree on SI not being in a position to change it.

They can't change it radically because the PA system is a foundation of the game (outdated IMO), but at least the almighty reputation could be a bigger factor for younger players.

There could be the next Messi playing on some dusty pitch in Argentine 2nd division, but if nobody has spotted him, or if only a few clubs did, there's no reason for his club to ask for a ludicrous sum OR for the scouts to report a 4.5* PA rating.

That can't be that difficult... Isn't value a formula involving reputation, CA and PA? So if this "next Messi" is virtually unknown, his high PA shouldn't warrant for a 20M transfer fee, because nobody, or very few, should be able to "see" the PA in the first place, or at least not without extensive scouting.

I've just bought a newgen in my game from Inter Milan, he's costing me £25 million pounds, but my scouts have told me to sign him at whatever price, I've been watching im for ages and when he came into the game at 16, Inter wouldn't entertain any of my offers, now 2 years later after he has developed a bit, been on loan at a couple of clubs, they came back with an acceptable sale price.

That's a Pato-like scenario, which is reasonable and realistic.

But if instead of Pato it was, say, M'Baye Niang, would it be realistic forking out the same amount of money for a much less seasoned player?

There's too much focus on the two extremes of the spectrum... For one C.Ronaldo (ie. ready-to-dominate 18yo) there are 100 Joe Bloggs who could develop into respectable performers but who could also fizzle out and sink into lower league oblivion by age 20. And then there are 1000 John Does who are there just to fill a space in a youth setup before falling off the face of the earth even before making a single 1st team appearance.

The former can, no MUST, cost a lot of money, the latters should not.

[sirgiorgio]

At the moment SI can't change this, your scouts are too accurate and PA is set, so as I said they have made these newgens unbuyable early in their career to make the game more realistic in the long run. If you continue to scout that target, keep him on your shortlist, he'll gets some games, will develops a bit I think you will see him become more available at a more reasonable price.

And how can that be realistic? The more he plays, the lesser his price?

If they wanted people to stop buying world class newgens who never played a competitive match, they could simply introduce the following feature(s):

- If the newgen "chose" to play for that particular club/youth team, it's because he's happy to stay and won't move for at least the first season.

or

- You can't get scout reports for newgens who never play a competitive match.

Make the player unavailable for transfer and/or reduce the "scouting power". I don't know how hard it'd be to code, but that would be realistic!

A problem doesn't need a solution, it needs the solution.

[Gribster]

You are not getting it are you. This isn't about the value, this is about nonsense clubs not selling a 15/16yr old who is playing in their reserve team for more money than the ENTIRE club is worth.

just tap him up and get him on a pre contract

ive yet to notice any way over priced players, but then i havent had a chacne to get really far into yet but ive managed to snap up a few 16-17yos for bargin bin prices

[tajj 7]

Fair play to him...

And it's not that unusual anyway... Alexis Sanchez costed Udinese €3M and they sold him to Barça at 25... According to your logic, Udinese should have never been allowed to pay him so cheaply, even at 17, because six years down the road he met the expectations and his value went through the roof?

That's not what I said. Your example of Sanchez is silly, his transfer from Udinese to Barcelona was based on his performances at Udinese, in the first team in a top European league, that's where his high transfer fee came from. When Udinese originally signed him it was on the basis of performances in Chile, there was no guarantee that the 17 year old Sanchez was going to be the 25 year old Sanchez, so the value is lower as he was playing a low standard of football in a different country, a high transfer fee is a gamble, that's the reality of real life scouting. In game however you can scout the player and know that the 17 year old player will become a top player regardless of his performances because of the PA report from your scouts, there is little gamble here, yes some prospects don't turn out as good as you think they will be, but pretty much every 5* potential player I have ever signed has at the very least sellable for a lot more than his original transfer.

Not entirely true... As said above, AI scouts can't tell the difference between good prospects and "crap players with high PA"... to them it's all the same... Hence the plethora of awful newgens, mostly pacey wingers who should have pursued a career as sprint runners, still getting 4* PA and who "should be regarded as an important first team player" despite their pace being the only skill they possess.

Same goes for other uneven or downright flawed players, like CMs who can't pass, DMs with single-digits aggression and bravery, Jan Koller-sized wingers etc..

Filtering youth players for value is, in my own experience, the WORST way to find good prospect because you'd have to navigate through a lot of garbage to uncover one good prospect. Ordering/scouting for key attribute, especially those who are "rare" in newgens (decent mental traits mostly), worked much better, and value wasn't often as high.

Because, once again, a well-rounded but not impressively PA'ed player will be valued LESS than a flashy but useless kid with 17 pace, acceleration and free kicks but with 7s in other key areas.

It's not that hard to tell those sort of things from one glance at their profile, we're talking about Human Managers here, the scout reports also tell you far more than just their PA. The high value is just an easy starting point, plus you can filter for attributes in the player search, it wasn't hard in previous versions for example to do a player search of high values players, under 17, with decent determination. It gives a quick shortlist if you like which you cna then do a scout report on, get a good handle of that players CA and PA, as well as an indicator about his hidden mental stats. Any young player (especially at 16, 17) with a high PA, decent determination, and an ok personality can be moulded into a top class player. It's not hard to re-train position or focu on specific attributes, or change mentalities through totouring. All you need is the PA, which the scouts very easily give you.

And how can that be realistic? The more he plays, the lesser his price?

If they wanted people to stop buying world class newgens who never played a competitive match, they could simply introduce the following feature(s):

- If the newgen "chose" to play for that particular club/youth team, it's because he's happy to stay and won't move for at least the first season.

or

- You can't get scout reports for newgens who never play a competitive match.

Make the player unavailable for transfer and/or reduce the "scouting power". I don't know how hard it'd be to code, but that would be realistic!

A problem doesn't need a solution, it needs the solution.

Because the starting point is even more unrealistic, human managers are remembering new-gen creation dates for various countires, finding players to scout with ease and instantly knowing their PA.

IRL a premier league manager for example wouldn't even really have scouts looking at another premiership or championsip clubs scholarship group unless they had herd something particular about a certain player through some contacts or had been scouting an under-15 tournament. Even in those siutation they wouldn;t be bidding for them, they would have a further look, do some more scuoting, monitor them etc. They certainly wouldn;t be looking at the youth intake of a Noreweigan second divison team.

If Human managers applied a more realistc method to their socuting you don't get these problems, your scouts roam countires, they look can be assigned to various competitions, they watch U-19, U-20 tournaments, they will then pick up on decent newgens who are making their way into the game.

"If they wanted people to stop buying world class newgens who never played a competitive match, they could simply introduce the following feature(s):

- If the newgen "chose" to play for that particular club/youth team, it's because he's happy to stay and won't move for at least the first season.

or

- You can't get scout reports for newgens who never play a competitive match."

And you don;t think people would be moaning about that? This thread could quite easily be along the lines of "I'm Barcelona and some 15 year old newgen won't sign even on a 100k a week and that's stupid!" Plus it only delays the problem a year, you'd still get human managers hoovering up high potential youth players at bargain prices.

Also U-18 games aren't competitive games but you can still scout the competition.

What SI have done is far from perfect but it's an improvement on the easy mode of previosu versions.

[Flohrinho]

- You can't get scout reports for newgens who never play a competitive match.

I think this is actually what they should have gone for, a player that has rarely played any competitive matches should be very hard to judge by scouts and be up to 3 stars off in terms of actual talent even from the best scouts.

This would highly reduce the effectiveness of just grabbing all the 5 star talents before they sign their first contract.

[Dave80]

Another way of spotting them in later seasons is to troll through under19/21 international squads, usually some haven't signed a provisional deal with their current club and (provided you are a bigger club most of the time) are willing to talk. Compensation is never really above £2m with the majority being under £1m.

What's been said is right, if it carried on as it was with the best youth being worth the most then the game would become boring managing big clubs because you'd just snap up all the youngsters before they turn 18 - sometimes ruining their potential as they don't get enough games. I prefer to keep most of the ones I sign at my club as opposed to loaning them out because it's only a couple and they usually only play in cup games or come on when they can do little damage to a big lead.

[RBKalle]

That's not what I said. Your example of Sanchez is silly, his transfer from Udinese to Barcelona was based on his performances at Udinese, in the first team in a top European league, that's where his high transfer fee came from. When Udinese originally signed him it was on the basis of performances in Chile, there was no guarantee that the 17 year old Sanchez was going to be the 25 year old Sanchez, so the value is lower as he was playing a low standard of football in a different country, a high transfer fee is a gamble, that's the reality of real life scouting. In game however you can scout the player and know that the 17 year old player will become a top player regardless of his performances because of the PA report from your scouts, there is little gamble here, yes some prospects don't turn out as good as you think they will be, but pretty much every 5* potential player I have ever signed has at the very least sellable for a lot more than his original transfer.

I maintain the example of Sanchez is very much relevant and fitting... Udinese bought him for good when he was 18 following a couple of impressive seasons in South America, and they paid him €3M. Not 10, not 15... It was a bargain but it could have as well been 3 millions wasted had he turned out the proverbial flash in the pan. The history of football is nothing but filled with expensive flops and "next Maradona/Romario" who ended up having their career peak in their teens.

That could happen in the game too,and when it doesn't it's an issue of the training-development module being too linear. Barring injuries or purposely poor training, there's no way to screw up a potential top player.

But since newgens are less well-rounded than original db players, PA doesn't necessarily mean success, so in a way there IS variety and chance does play a role.

Going from "you can buy 99% of under18 players for less than 2M" to "you can't buy anyone vaguely promising for less than 10M" is the typical SI overmedication.

It's not that hard to tell those sort of things from one glance at their profile, we're talking about Human Managers here, the scout reports also tell you far more than just their PA. The high value is just an easy starting point, plus you can filter for attributes in the player search, it wasn't hard in previous versions for example to do a player search of high values players, under 17, with decent determination. It gives a quick shortlist if you like which you cna then do a scout report on, get a good handle of that players CA and PA, as well as an indicator about his hidden mental stats. Any young player (especially at 16, 17) with a high PA, decent determination, and an ok personality can be moulded into a top class player. It's not hard to re-train position or focu on specific attributes, or change mentalities through totouring. All you need is the PA, which the scouts very easily give you.

Again, it's a false solution applied on the wrong part of the game... Transfers weren't the real issue. Scouting and development are.

But as usual, it's easier coming up with a makeshift "solution" that can somewhat hide the main problem. (case in point, team talks)

[andrew bowditch]

I think its alot more realistic, as in FM12 i could go out and spend 10 million and bring in 5 or 6 quality 15/16 year olds or obscure 19/20 year olds which could train up and play cup games and be world beaters within a year or two. (very unrealistic)

IN Fm13 i have signed 3 players for Man utd who are 15/16 and have 5 start potential for £10M each for two of them, and another for £4M. Now for a player who has potential of 5 stars at united, i think thats a steal. someone who enriches an already talented squad. I think theyve got it spot on in FM13.

At the end of the day, if fergie wanted to go out and buy 6 top quality teenagers, i doubt hed come back with much change from £50M (look at examples of The Ox, Phil Jones, Smalling, Nick Powell, Lucas, Ronaldo (when he joined united), nani, anderson, all kids who went for big fees.

(On that note, one of the £10M purchases was a regen who is listed as the Ox's brother - Andy Oxlade - Chaimberlain, he looks like he will be worth every penny, Awesome stats for a 16 year old CB.

[RBKalle]

But I assume you're playing as a Top Club if you're able to go shopping at Man Utd's academy...

That was NOT the point I (and others?) was trying to make... It's only fair to shell out good money for a player who's been training at MUFC and who has potential (doesn't matter, for now, how you find out, whether it was because he had been playing well in the League Cup or because FM scouts are all-seeing all-knowing entities).

But in the bigger picture those talents are few and far between... those are the sure-fire prospects. But what about the aforementioned army of good-to-average prospects who WILL become the spine of League One-Two in half a decade when their 3/4* potential turned out to be a "once in a million years" deal and they ultimately amounted to little more than nothing?

What about players from countries whose record transfer fee was the yearly wage of an average EPL player?

Non-elite newgens were ludicrously overpriced already in FM11/12... Random Norwegian dude barely ok for their 2nd division started valued at 300k, while competent and established utility players in their top tier could go for half that money.

Can't we step back from our "EPL superstar-centric" vision and take a look at things through slightly more global eyes?

A 17yo "Pato" MUST cost at least 10-15 millions from a top club in SA or from a highly regarded youth system.

A 17yo "Lupoli" shouldn't cost more than 1-2M just because the scout "thinks" there's some potential

For once, reputation could be our ally... Low reputation (due to obscure nation, league, club, player, to not enough competitive football, to poor personality etc) should dictate how well a scout can "read" the players' attributes. Or if he'd be able to scout him at all.

The guy playing for Kristiansund, or for Ipatinga should be surrounded by a thick, thick fog of war and even the best scout should take months to go past the initial assessment of his potential ability.

But making EVERY YOUNGSTER 3x more expensive by default is a lazy, inaccurate and unfair solution.

[tajj 7]

I maintain the example of Sanchez is very much relevant and fitting... Udinese bought him for good when he was 18 following a couple of impressive seasons in South America, and they paid him €3M. Not 10, not 15... It was a bargain but it could have as well been 3 millions wasted had he turned out the proverbial flash in the pan. The history of football is nothing but filled with expensive flops and "next Maradona/Romario" who ended up having their career peak in their teens.

That could happen in the game too,and when it doesn't it's an issue of the training-development module being too linear. Barring injuries or purposely poor training, there's no way to screw up a potential top player.

But since newgens are less well-rounded than original db players, PA doesn't necessarily mean success, so in a way there IS variety and chance does play a role.

Going from "you can buy 99% of under18 players for less than 2M" to "you can't buy anyone vaguely promising for less than 10M" is the typical SI overmedication.

Again, it's a false solution applied on the wrong part of the game... Transfers weren't the real issue. Scouting and development are.

But as usual, it's easier coming up with a makeshift "solution" that can somewhat hide the main problem. (case in point, team talks)

Your Sanchez example pretty much happened earlier in this thread, that Brazilian newgen had about 50 or so appearances at Sao Paulo and then was bought for about 4 million euros, and is now worth 25 million euros. It;s the point I have been making for the whole thread, you can buy players who have played for their clubs for a bit and are 18/19 fairly easily without over the top fees. You just can't buy newgens straight or very shortly after they have been generated. that's what the OP was effectively moaning about that why I said the example wasn't that good. Sanchez had played for a good two seasons in Chile before Udinese bougth him, they didn;t buy him as fresh faced schoolkid with no appearances.

The game with it's absurd high valuations is stopping you doing the latter (buying newgens fresh ou of the box), but you can still do the former rather easily in the right circumstances. I have just bought in my game an Austrian stiker who was playing first team football for a Swiss team, he had about 30 appearances for his club over two seasons (he's just turned 18) and scored a few goals. He's 5* star rated PA and they sold him to me for £2.9 million. He's already got 17 for finishing, heading, jumping and strength and is 6 foot 2.

Like I said what SI have done is far from perfect but it's an improvement on what was happening in previous versions.

[Gary_Parker]

I think its been done perfectly this year. (ok, not perfectly, but much better than before). I found myself in FM12 picking up 10/20 youngsters a year in my Ajax save, my under 19s had about 60 players in it by end of season 3 and my B side was also packed to the rafters.

Whats been done now is that clubs, regardless of their stature are deeming these players to be indispensible to them, in the same way clubs suggest players stay with them for their development, ie, get games rather than sitting in my under 19s or being farmed out to some little feeder club. I can accept that. My local team, Raith Rovers, has sold a few players over the years to the "bigger teams" only to see them rot in the reserves and ruin their careers. For example, Dene Shields, left us for Celtic for £100k and didn't play once, got farmed out, came back to us a worse player than he left and now doesn't do a lot in football.

Also, there was a question asked in a previous post that I don't think anyone complaining answered.

If an AI club bid for your wonderkid, valued at £200k, what price would you accept, if any?

[sirgiorgio]

- If the newgen "chose" to play for that particular club/youth team, it's because he's happy to stay and won't move for at least the first season.

or

- You can't get scout reports for newgens who never play a competitive match."

And you don;t think people would be moaning about that? This thread could quite easily be along the lines of "I'm Barcelona and some 15 year old newgen won't sign even on a 100k a week and that's stupid!" Plus it only delays the problem a year, you'd still get human managers hoovering up high potential youth players at bargain prices.

If FM wants to be a realistic game, it should do realistic "things". If people complain, you can just tell them: "That's how it happens in real life football, you can't judge a youngster until you watch him play a few times. Moreover, if he plays for Bryne instead of your club it's because he wants to play for Bryne and not your club. At the moment."

And you don't delay the problem at all. I guess after one season your scouts will know if he is any good, and he'll know if he wants to move or stay.

Competitive game = a game in the "FM world".

The game with it's absurd high valuations is stopping you doing the latter (buying newgens fresh ou of the box).

Apparently, someone else is buying / selling them before they come out of the box:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327718-New-Feature-or-Bug-Youth-players-being-sold-before-even-coming-through-ranks

And these things happen quite often irl...

[ATW]

Threads like this still amaze me.

Now, if I was playing a Team Dire from the Backward Super League Division 4 and I managed to produce a newgen that I knew had the ability to be a top 4 Premier League star do you think I, hell do you think you would sell him for the stated price of 20K or a little more like 100K? If you were the manager of that Team Dire how much would you ask a Manchester United for if they came knocking? I bet it isn't a "realistic" price according to those moaning!

[x42bn6]

Threads like this still amaze me.

Now, if I was playing a Team Dire from the Backward Super League Division 4 and I managed to produce a newgen that I knew had the ability to be a top 4 Premier League star do you think I, hell do you think you would sell him for the stated price of 20K or a little more like 100K? If you were the manager of that Team Dire how much would you ask a Manchester United for if they came knocking? I bet it isn't a "realistic" price according to those moaning!

It depends on the club! Look at Chris Smalling, for example - £10,000 + £10,000 for every game played upon his transfer to Fulham.

The lower down the leagues you are, the less bargaining chips you have to keep the player. If Chris Smalling were a League One player before moving to Fulham, for example, his transfer fee would have been higher as that League One side would have been able to hold out for more, by taking more risk.

[ATW]

It depends on the club! Look at Chris Smalling, for example - £10,000 + £10,000 for every game played upon his transfer to Fulham.

The lower down the leagues you are, the less bargaining chips you have to keep the player. If Chris Smalling were a League One player before moving to Fulham, for example, his transfer fee would have been higher as that League One side would have been able to hold out for more, by taking more risk.

Doesn't really answer the questions etc. I asked what those here would do if they were the diddy club manager and the AI came in with lets say a 50K bid for a player that had a transfer value of say £5K.... but you knew he was the next Messi.

[JockStein1967]

My God! The Pish being spoke on here.

If any of Your clubs had a great regen, would you sell him for "market value" or "as much as you could bleed"? you know the answer so STFU!

As for the guy with Dundee Utd youngster, he thinks you rate hime so why shouldnt he ask for shitloads of money? were you expecting him to take a reduction?

The future of football is in developing and selling your own talent, not for peanuts to make the "big" clubs bigger but to bring football to a level where everyone can compet.

Posters complaining they cant get youngsters cheap from "small" teams while they are at "big" teams are just maybe hiding the fact they are crap at the game and want AI help, after abusing the AI.

As previous posters have said, get a grip, do the work and You can find young players, without paying over the odds.

[x42bn6]

Doesn't really answer the questions etc. I asked what those here would do if they were the diddy club manager and the AI came in with lets say a 50K bid for a player that had a transfer value of say £5K.... but you knew he was the next Messi.

A lower-league side would never know, though, because it's not like anyone can judge the next Messi at Level Infinity on the English Pyramid. All they know is that a player is interesting to a very rich Premier League side.

The fact that this player piqued the interest of perhaps Manchester United would drive the price up slightly, but not really that much more.

[Kriss]

A lower-league side would never know, though, because it's not like anyone can judge the next Messi at Level Infinity on the English Pyramid. All they know is that a player is interesting to a very rich Premier League side.

The fact that this player piqued the interest of perhaps Manchester United would drive the price up slightly, but not really that much more.

Exactly so, the big team are basically taking a punt.

[BiggusD]

Doesn't really answer the questions etc. I asked what those here would do if they were the diddy club manager and the AI came in with lets say a 50K bid for a player that had a transfer value of say £5K.... but you knew he was the next Messi.

In real life, could you... or should you hold a young footballer back from a move that could fulfil his dreams?

If Molde sells Vegard Forren to a club like Club Brugge I would be VERY disappointed. That's hardly a move upwards! There would be anger towards the management if that happens. However, if the interest from Everton is true and he goes there in January for a reasonable price (£2m+), no-one in or around Molde would be angry. People would actually be happy for him and think of it as a reputation boost to the club that its best player goes to a good club in one of the biggest leagues in the world.

I would even go so far as to say that if Molde rejected a 4m bid from Everton for Forren, saying that he is under contract and goes nowhere because the club don't need money, people would be at least puzzled, maybe even upset about it even though the board has every right to do so. Everyone wants to keep him for as long as possible, but no-one wants to hold him back if the bid from a big enough club comes. People are smart enough to be aware of the club's status in the world of football.

So is it really realistic that a youngster, a popular and eagerly awaited prospect at a tiny club can be held back by its club, AI or Human, without any reactions?

[JockStein1967]

Exactly so, the big team are basically taking a punt.

And the Small side know this, Kowing they dont really want to sell the player, will hold out for as much as possible, if the big club pull out, the small club have lost nothing!!!

[x42bn6]

And the Small side know this, Kowing they dont really want to sell the player, will hold out for as much as possible, if the big club pull out, the small club have lost nothing!!!

Nope. Remember, if a youngster shows great promise, they are unlikely to accept another contract with that team. Knowing that, the value of that player might go down over time as their contract winds down, which means the small club might actually lose out! And it might be even worse if the player throws a strop and refuses to play until he is transferred.

If a small team believes they have a real gem, but are stuck with a contract that will end in a few years and absolutely nothing to tempt the player to stay, they have little to bargain with. This is why small clubs often lose out on youth transfers, because they cannot demand huge amounts of money. In a lot of ways, the market has determined that the value of a player at a rubbish league is a certain amount, and the market rate for, say, Chris Smallings and Michael Kightlys, is five figures with a few clauses.

Is it fair? Maybe not, but then again, not a lot of things are.

[x42bn6]

here's very fresh story from croatia.

http://www.defensacentral.com/real_madrid/77262-halilovic-interes-inter-juventus-guerra-con-real-madrid-dinamo-de-zagreb-pide-12-millones-club-blanco/

the player in question is 16 yrs old prodigy from arguably the worst club in champions league history (DInamo Zagreb), despite his nominal value is 275 K Ł

Real offered 8 million but were turned down as the club boss wants 10. apart real theres also Juve interested.

more interesting is that no offers were made for a kid before he actually debuted for Dinamo in Champions league against PSG this season and played only 3 games before that in the crotian first division.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/alen-halilovic/leistungsdaten/spieler_226074.html

seems quite accurate to current state in FM at the moment.

On the other hand, just take a look at the transfer fees paid by top clubs (http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/statistiken/startseite/transfers.html > click the top leagues). Very few actually go anywhere near that mark.

16-year-olds going for double-digit millions? Very, very unlikely.

[sirgiorgio]

And the Small side know this, Kowing they dont really want to sell the player, will hold out for as much as possible, if the big club pull out, the small club have lost nothing!!!

They lost money now for a player who might (not necessarily will) be good tomorrow. They'll lose money tomorrow, as they could have sold him with some kind of clause (% on next sale, X £ after X matches, etc.) They lost the possibility to establish some kind of good relationship with the big club. The player (and his family) will probably be so angry that he may start to waste his talent and play bad on purpose. Finally, they lost the chance to actually improve the club with the money earned from the sale.

Wise choice!

[llDracoll]

I have noticed that teams are noticeably more greedy with their youngsters in FM13 than in other FM games. While sometimes they are TOO greedy, I prefer this rather than watching the AI accept selling amazing youngsters (I don't mean 'Youngsters that can be amazing' but those that are already amazing) at very low prices

Even in FM13, you can still get great regens at low prices. As Boca, I got two excellent uruguayan regens, a midfielder with a lot of technique in his feet and a striker that has improved A LOT since he arrived... six months ago; I got the midfielder for 1M and the striker on a free transfer, as a way to tell you that massive bargains are still possible

You need to pay more attention at Brazil, too. Since players in Brazil have fixed Release Fee clauses, you can get excellent regens at a very low fee (And in 48-month payments!) if you manage to find them before they sign a contract that will make their Release Fee skyrocket

[whilewolf]

Better too hard then too easy.

But to echo what others have said its too easy to find wonder-kids in FM and Its too certain that they will develop, AI clubs aren't good enough at driving a hard bargain. The result is its not a gamble to pay big money on young players.

Things that could be done to improve things.

Change scouting so you don't uncover players who aren't playing competitive games unless you choose to scout youth or reserve teams. The down side of that would be wading through the tons of rubbish players in the youth/reserve leagues.

Increase the amount of youth players with relatively high CA but little room for improvement.

Make scouts take longer to form an opinion on a players potential. If you have to tie a scout up for three months before you know if a player is really a wonder-kid it becomes more of a strategic decision rather then a no-brainer to buy or not.

Make scouts more prone to errors of judgement. If a scout sees a young player with a high CA and watches him improve over three months he should conclude that he will continue to develop at that rate even if really he only has one CA point of development remaining.

Improve AI teams bargaining make teams use add on clauses for players that are better then their peers. If small teams have players who they think can play at a higher level they should accept big cash money or structured deals that could earn them more but they should also be aware that its not certain the player will fulfil his potential.

If you did all that it would be much more of a gamble to spend big money on youth players and also potentially more expensive to buy them on structured deals.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

If the game based a scout's report on CA/current age then the game would be much better.

i.e.

16 year old (CA 110) - "Would be a decent Championship player with potential to be a good Premier League player given his age and current ability."

Now done like this you have no idea whether his PA is 200 or 111.

Given this would YOU then pay £20m for him??? I think not.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Then you could have...

19 year old (CA 10) - "Decent player for the Blue Square South but not likely to improve given his current ability and age)

This guy could have PA = 200. A real gem to find. His club is bound to let him go for a bag of bibs!

Then again perhaps his PA = 11 and you'd be better off with the bibs???

[AIK]

I think that they have started in the wrong end about this. There's no realism whatsoever in that a 18-year-old African player should cost more than £100.000. Those teams are usually happy to have their players sent to Europe and then maybe have a chance of a few % in sell-on. My team does that very much in real life, take African youngsters for almost nothing and then nurture them into good players that are then sold to larger European leagues. A win-win-win for everyone involved. The transfer fees as they are now are WAY too high from small countries. Youngsters from England are expensive yes, but the world are so much more than England. SI shouln't have generalised this much.

How many of Arsenals "wonderkids" were 100% home grown? Not many, most were brought for nothing at ages between 16-18. There's gotta be a difference between A) Players that are super good at young age and players that are good for their age and with a good potential but still far away from Premier League quality and B) players that are established as top players in a Premier Division and players that has only played in u-19 or a handful of first team matches yet.

It's common for young players from Sweden to leave for England or Italy in a rather young age and the buying club rarely pay that much for them. And it's usually some of the best talents in the country. John Guidetti in Manchester City and Alexander Kacancilic in Fulham are good examples of this. They may not be wonderkids but in FM13 they would still have been valued at millions by their Swedish clubs and City/Fulham would never have brought them. Zlatan Ibrahimovic someone maybe says, he's still the most expensive player to have been brought from Sweden at age of 19, i think he went for about 8-10 million pounds. BUT he was already established as a top player in the league by then.

The same probably goes for most countries outside the "Big 7" (England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Brazil & Argentina). For those seven countries it's a good change, players from there costs much if they have Premier League potential. But not from everywhere else.

What i would propose instead is that it should be made much more expensive in the day-to-day business to have many brought young players in your team. If you buy a young African talent he will demand a wage that are way below the minimum requirement to survive in Western Europe today. Their wage demands should rise 2-3 times even though their young. Aside from that there's other expidentures when clubs buy foreign players. These costs should be counted. There's a reason for why clubs prefer players that already live as close to the home ground as possible. It's cheaper. In FM that doesn't seem to matter. You can have a u-19 team with 20 foreign players, it won't cost more than one with 20 home grown players.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Isn't the whole CA/PA system at the route of a lot of the games transfer woes ?

In real life an average player can maybe have a fantastic season or 2, or shine in a lower quality league and maybe attract a move to a big club based on performance, in FM it's ALL about CA and PA. AI clubs would rather sign a CA 150 striker than the CA 130 one that had the season of his life and scored 30 goals the season before.

The same happens with youth. You end up with a 15 year old with a high PA that has barely kicked a ball in youth level football, but everyone from the AI to us after scouting know he is a future 25 million £ player. There needs to be some margin of error with scouting players at youth levels, its fine my scout knowing that some 23 year old who had played 100 career games is a 4* player , but if i send a scout to watch Regen X play some youth games somewhere, and he is a real standout, the game needs to find a way to tell us that without telegraphing that he is the next Messi.

Ronaldo cost 12m and has played 25 times for Sporting before his move to Utd

Rooney shone in the EPL for Everton before his big move

Fabregas moved to Arsenal from Barcelona toffee

Bale was signed for an initial fee of 5m after having a good season for Saints first team etc etc

in FM we would know those players would be World Class at 15 , before they had kicked a ball in anger, and expected to pay extravagant sums for them, this is wrong, and the youth and full transfer system as a whole needs looked at.

CA/PA is a horrible arbitrary system that really needs to a redesign.

[Silverx]

I'm not sure the system is the problem there, more the detection - as in the scouts shouldn't have such a tight predictive range without any 'evidence.' It seems atm scouts discover CA/PA by directly looking at those hidden stats. It should instead probably be them partly estimating CA/PA by looking at those stats but also their performances (with more weight given to the latter).

[mixmkz]

My scout just came back with a 5 star AMC brazilian wonderkid, I looked at the report and he had a 875k release clause. I snapped him up right away

[Smac]

My God! The Pish being spoke on here.

If any of Your clubs had a great regen, would you sell him for "market value" or "as much as you could bleed"? you know the answer so STFU!

As for the guy with Dundee Utd youngster, he thinks you rate hime so why shouldnt he ask for shitloads of money? were you expecting him to take a reduction?

The future of football is in developing and selling your own talent, not for peanuts to make the "big" clubs bigger but to bring football to a level where everyone can compet.

Posters complaining they cant get youngsters cheap from "small" teams while they are at "big" teams are just maybe hiding the fact they are crap at the game and want AI help, after abusing the AI.

As previous posters have said, get a grip, do the work and You can find young players, without paying over the odds.

I take it you're being serious? If so, I think you misunderstand the discussion:

For one thing, we're not talking about modeling AI transfer behavior to be like what you would do in their shoes. We're talking about modeling AI behavior to be more in line with what is observed in the real world. It is a debatable point as to how FM should work: more realistic fees, or more "gamey" mechanisms to paper over the problem with scouting being too accurate.

Secondly, I think you miss the point that players from smaller clubs go for smaller fees for a reason. Small clubs can't contain their talent, generally. It isn't that they are stupid and say "Yes, thank you" to whatever bid comes in. As others have outlined above, small clubs do try to get the most from young players, but with the incentives they can realistically offer a promising youngster it is very difficult to do more than hope for some competition from top teams.

You can't simply make the AI teams behave as we would and hold onto our youngsters no matter what. For one thing the game already models the players becoming upset with this and refusing to re-sign with you. For another thing, trying to get clubs to show extreme confidence in their futures (moving up the leagues), to always recognize future super-stars, etc.. moves the game further from reality.

I don't see any posts in this thread that suggest people want things to be easy. Quite the contrary. Take a breath or something

If the game based a scout's report on CA/current age then the game would be much better.

i.e.

16 year old (CA 110) - "Would be a decent Championship player with potential to be a good Premier League player given his age and current ability."

Now done like this you have no idea whether his PA is 200 or 111.

Given this would YOU then pay £20m for him??? I think not.

Do you not think that scouts have at least some chance of spotting future talent? I think you go too far with your suggestion. I think real coaches and scouts can see behaviors in young players that indicate they have both the raw talent and right kind of footballing mind to develop. I'm sure they're wrong on occasion, either because they simply are incorrect in their assessments or because the young player is an unusual case they have misunderstood, or because the young player encounters some un foreseen problem with their development.

If you remove these things as informing scouting then it is really throwing the babies out with the bathwater (overly powerful scouting).

[BiggusD]

I take it you're being serious? If so, I think you misunderstand the discussion:

For one thing, we're not talking about modeling AI transfer behavior to be like what you would do in their shoes. We're talking about modeling AI behavior to be more in line with what is observed in the real world. It is a debatable point as to how FM should work: more realistic fees, or more "gamey" mechanisms to paper over the problem with scouting being too accurate.

Secondly, I think you miss the point that players from smaller clubs go for smaller fees for a reason. Small clubs can't contain their talent, generally. It isn't that they are stupid and say "Yes, thank you" to whatever bid comes in. As others have outlined above, small clubs do try to get the most from young players, but with the incentives they can realistically offer a promising youngster it is very difficult to do more than hope for some competition from top teams.

You can't simply make the AI teams behave as we would and hold onto our youngsters no matter what. For one thing the game already models the players becoming upset with this and refusing to re-sign with you. For another thing, trying to get clubs to show extreme confidence in their futures (moving up the leagues), to always recognize future super-stars, etc.. moves the game further from reality.

I don't see any posts in this thread that suggest people want things to be easy. Quite the contrary. Take a breath or something

Do you not think that scouts have at least some chance of spotting future talent? I think you go too far with your suggestion. I think real coaches and scouts can see behaviors in young players that indicate they have both the raw talent and right kind of footballing mind to develop. I'm sure they're wrong on occasion, either because they simply are incorrect in their assessments or because the young player is an unusual case they have misunderstood, or because the young player encounters some un foreseen problem with their development.

If you remove these things as informing scouting then it is really throwing the babies out with the bathwater (overly powerful scouting).

I do agree that this is a game and PA is probably necessary (a glass roof). However, it is impossible to actually know that PA just by looking at a player once. However, it is possible to know that a player is very good for his age. It is also possible to know how ambitious and professional he is, and how determined he is to reach his goals. If scouted over enough time, it is also possible to spot actual improvement.

I believe that what SI needs to do is to make it necessary to scout a player over 6 months, a year or two, in order to see at which rate he is developing. Based on that information, the scout could then finally say that this player has the potential to be such and such good player in the future. A report card should therefore only give CA, and it would be impossible for the scout to predict the future quality of a youngster who has never played a competitive match through a "report card". It should even be difficult to assess CA at that point. That information could be acquired through affiliates and personal relationships, though.

[Dave80]

I don't understand how some people are finding it hard, these are 2 (of about 5 or 6) that are in my squad the now:

Craig Smith (Regen, £550k)

Ryan Gauld (Current, £525k)

All you need is decent scouts and lots of them. Having a look at U19s/21s also helps, but if you want to sign a regen for compensation rather than a transfer fee you need to troll about big teams (or well known youth producing teams) under 18s on the day that the regens are "produced".

[sirgiorgio]

I take it you're being serious? If so, I think you misunderstand the discussion:

Do you not think that scouts have at least some chance of spotting future talent? I think you go too far with your suggestion. I think real coaches and scouts can see behaviors in young players that indicate they have both the raw talent and right kind of footballing mind to develop. I'm sure they're wrong on occasion, either because they simply are incorrect in their assessments or because the young player is an unusual case they have misunderstood, or because the young player encounters some un foreseen problem with their development.

If you remove these things as informing scouting then it is really throwing the babies out with the bathwater (overly powerful scouting).

I think SMSL may have a point. Imagine FM without PA, or better said, with some other attributes replacing PA (let's say Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure + Age).

1) 16 years old, CA 10, Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure 20 + 20 + 20. He plays in Conference. He knows ManU scouts came to see his match (maybe they want to scout another presumed raw gem). He gives everything he got, ManU scouts are impressed and sign him. So here he is, in one of the best clubs in the world. He's willing to learn and wants to make it, but unfortunately by the time he's 18 his CA is "just" 85. So they sent him in League 2, but his will is strong, he trains hard, finds a good tutor and plays competitive matches. He'll never be a star, but the time he's 24-25 he'll be a good championship player.

2) 16 years old, CA 110. Every club in the world is interested in signing him. Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure 20 + 20 + 20. He makes the right choices (which might as well be to stay where he is and see if he can make it) and becomes the new Messi.

3) 16 years old, CA 110. Every club in the world is interested in signing him. Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure 1 + 1 + 1. He makes the wrong choices and will be the biggest waste of talent in the history of football.

As extreme as these example are, they're far from unrealistic. As for his price, it depends on the offers and his willingness to move clubs. If No. 3 is a product of the Barcelona "cantera", he might be so stupid to accept an offer of a Liga Adelante club with the worst training facilities ever, just because they give him more money.

Why Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure (and the right training facilities, the right managers, the right teammates...)? I think it's self-explanatory... And how would this be different from now? First of all, scouts/coaches could only tell how good a player is now, and make an educated guess about how good the player will be in the future. Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure can't be judged immediately, you need some in-depth scouting and chances are you get some contradictory information. Also, (AI/human) managers wouldn't choose a player with crappy attributes just because "my assistant tells me he's gonna be huge if I give him some match experience", their choices would only be based on what they see.

[x42bn6]

I think SMSL may have a point. Imagine FM without PA, or better said, with some other attributes replacing PA (let's say Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure + Age).

1) 16 years old, CA 10, Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure 20 + 20 + 20. He plays in Conference. He knows ManU scouts came to see his match (maybe they want to scout another presumed raw gem). He gives everything he got, ManU scouts are impressed and sign him. So here he is, in one of the best clubs in the world. He's willing to learn and wants to make it, but unfortunately by the time he's 18 his CA is "just" 85. So they sent him in League 2, but his will is strong, he trains hard, finds a good tutor and plays competitive matches. He'll never be a star, but the time he's 24-25 he'll be a good championship player.

2) 16 years old, CA 110. Every club in the world is interested in signing him. Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure 20 + 20 + 20. He makes the right choices (which might as well be to stay where he is and see if he can make it) and becomes the new Messi.

3) 16 years old, CA 110. Every club in the world is interested in signing him. Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure 1 + 1 + 1. He makes the wrong choices and will be the biggest waste of talent in the history of football.

As extreme as these example are, they're far from unrealistic. As for his price, it depends on the offers and his willingness to move clubs. If No. 3 is a product of the Barcelona "cantera", he might be so stupid to accept an offer of a Liga Adelante club with the worst training facilities ever, just because they give him more money.

Why Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure (and the right training facilities, the right managers, the right teammates...)? I think it's self-explanatory... And how would this be different from now? First of all, scouts/coaches could only tell how good a player is now, and make an educated guess about how good the player will be in the future. Professionalism + Ambition + Pressure can't be judged immediately, you need some in-depth scouting and chances are you get some contradictory information. Also, (AI/human) managers wouldn't choose a player with crappy attributes just because "my assistant tells me he's gonna be huge if I give him some match experience", their choices would only be based on what they see.

"Removing PA" stirs up a hornets' nest in the natives here. Be very careful...

Of course, I think you are absolutely right. A scout doesn't see some magical invisible barrier indicating "PA". A scout sees things like ability and attitude, the latter of which is used to project growth of the player. We say Welbeck, for example, has a good future because he has a good level of ability already for his peer group and his attitude is pretty good, too (amongst other things). Not because his PA is 165 (or whatever it is).

[EnriqueZove]

My scout just came back with a 5 star AMC brazilian wonderkid, I looked at the report and he had a 875k release clause. I snapped him up right away

Scouting in Football Manager needs an urgent and deserved makeover. The current system in which you can identify the next Messi/CR7 at 16 is appalling. [ A lot of people playing the FM have a little idea of tactics. Their understanding of tactics ends with formations, role. They profit from this system of scouting as now they can fit their players into tactics. So they have the next Neymer at 16, by 20 he is breaking world records. ( SI or SEGA won't change it, as it's easy for new gaming enthusiasts. ) ]

In the real world, based on a player abilities (age, natural grace, attitude, personality, setup he is currently in, etc. ) Scouts decide whether they want to scout them on not at first. Normally a scout has his set of contacts who give him such information. ( e.g. I don't remember the name of that Valencia scout but in an interview he said that he has a network of around 2300 peoples to feed him and his colleagues. They tell them whom to scout which in turn is actually scouted by the club scout repeatedly. ) Since the FM allows the manager to even take over job of Director of Football and Head of Youth Development, we end up with managers doing the network job. (It makes the game easier to play though. ) However, in real world SAF or Arsene would need to hear a youth's name 10-20 times from different people before he will ask Jim, Martin or David to track them. For established player he certainly has TV and good scout network.

My suggestion for Scouting System up-gradation are:

1. The current scout expenditure isn't really proportional to scouting done. I have paid just $0.43M scouting 76% of the World. ( IRL that wouldn't even count for the Network Donkeys. ) The system of scouting range allowed is good, but it can be tamed. ( The reason suddenly playing LLM you strike a Wonderkid in Latvia. ) Clubs may have good scouts everywhere in the world, but the donkey network is limited to a specific regions only. [ United has just expanded the Scouting network in Latin America. But in FM, since you have a guy called Toulmin, you end up knowing not only every available player but also their value. The only thing left to do is check attribute and PA. Game Over. http://manutdnetwork.com/forum/topics/united-to-expand-scouting-network-to-latin-america ]

S: It would be better if the link between expenditure and scouting is more synced. Just because you are allowed to scout world, you end up picking every top regens all over the world in 7 days.

2. A player who has never played a game shouldn't be scoutable. ( The problem here is that scout 3 match takes 3 months sometimes, because of non-playable league. ) The players report should be inconsistent.

S: Young Players must need Multiple Scouting.

3. A lot of hype up players end up disastrously and actually their number are 100x times more than players who actually succeed.

S: Include an "Error Margin" type attributes (like the solidarity compensation). More younger a player, more error in the final report. + Players in your own team would have lesser margin 'because your club watches over them. This can be also said about home league. The league who never gets onto TV should have more error.

4. A teen and their parent would certainly think thrice before moving one country to another. Yeah, it's a big club and I am destined to be next Zidane, but who knows the future. There is a reason that most of youth who became great later were signed at an 18+ age. ( The fresh case of 16 year old Halilvokic family rejecting the Real Madrid 8M offer, just because the future is yet very variable, no one knows how will he end up at another club. The lack of maturity at this age will also hamper settlement into a new environment. It's better to continue the progress where you are comfortably working. )

S: Some stat like Adaptability and Will to relocate must come only after a player become 17 or plus.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Some Crazy Suggestions:

5. A top club like Arsenal, Barcelona, Real Madrid or United will rarely scout a third division Austrian League. So a Mr. Kiddo there will first come to notice of a lower or mid table first division team and affiliate, who will certainly have a better network in their home country. On the other hand we have a classic example of a Brazilian who first went to PSV and from there to El-Classico, finally to be a Ballon D'or winner . Limit results according to reputation of club. { I think this is in the FM, but I am not sure. }

6. Peak Age. Early Bloomer, Late Bloomer, Burned Out.

7. A lot of players like Henry seems mediocre in a league while they become World Class in another. It's down to the type of player he is and the type of game your team wants to play. Regens should have their own preference about what type of game they want to play further up in their career.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I don't quite understand why this game doesn't offer at least the option of much heavier attribute masking. All the notions of realism in this thread seem pretty ridiculous when all you have to do is simply ask your scout for a report and 24 hours later you'll know everything there is to know about a youth player in some obscure league halfway around the world.