*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

[Welshace]

I would so much like to have the instant result buttom from FMC in the full FM... Soo many times u just wanna skip the match and get on with the game

Go check the Skinning section of the forums...

[Torwin]

Yeah I second that. Whereas I actually enjoy the game that is one annoying issue. Lost a few goals that way.

Edit: talking about the players ignoring the ball rolling next to them; I thought I used the quote, but apparently I didn't .

[Rashidi]

Exactly. The players simply ignore the ball, and start running to other place. Nobody will convince me that it happens because od "my tactics". This is massive ME bug. I've seen something like that in one of earlier versions of FM (FM11? FM10?).

Go to the tactical forums post, read the FAQ on posting threads, this is a thread for general feedback. I am pretty certain there are loads of people who can help, and its almost 4am here and i have an office to run in the morning.

[geordiebird]

Can you please provide examples in our match engine forum so we can use these examples to look into? Forum can be found here - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/296-Match-Engine-3D-and-Team-Talks

Thanks.

Sorry, i thought it was well known?

[Johnnyhugs]

Is there any news about the upcoming patch? How long will it take before it's out? just curious.

[wally13]

Is there any news about the upcoming patch? How long will it take before it's out? just curious.

End of month or there about is current time scale

[Spart]

Sorry, i thought it was well known?

Even if it is, every example and sample helps SI identify and fix bugs and the cause of bugs.

[Clausdk]

First of all, congrats with FM13, I absolutely love it.

But I have a question. In FM12, you had the option to play the game only on commentary and selecting to view the screen in something called classical view. I can't seem to find that option in FM13. In the game, I only have the choice to view the game in pitch mode, with a little overall screen or in something called shared view, where half of the screen is in the classical view and the other half is statistics.

Has the classical view been removed in FM13?

[Hit the upright]

No offense, but can't you see the obvious bit of irony there yourself?

As for the rest, FM12 was perfectly capable of producing varying styles of football. FM13 may turn out to be even better on that front but at the moment it clearly has much less variety. And on top of that the dominating style of play is out of touch with reality. I also don't see how it is a 'fact' that the 13 ME is better than 12. It may well turn out to be, but what objective arguments can be made for it being ahead of 12.2 at the moment?

Simply put FM2012 was wooden but mostly bug free, 2013 has got issues but it not wooden, I wouldn’t go back. I do know what you mean by dominating play, however sort the pressing and marking issues out and that won’t be the case. The point here is that 2013 has potential to play any style in football. FM2012 played dull percentage football; I must have tried hundreds of tactics, my own and other peoples, variation not a chance, it was easy to win matches but boring to watch.

Of course the flaws have to get sorted it would help if the GKs worked, can’t get the GKs to short pass whatever I do and shots constantly bounce off them. I do understand the frustrations, when your one nil up with 10 mins to go and your defender just walks away from the ball for no real reason, leaving the opposition to score it really wears you teeth down and makes you question what the point is but that doesn’t me the ME is broken it’s just misfiring.

[Martyr1777]

Many thanks for the constructive post. Away from the AI, we are intrigued by your references to "ice skating" as well as the displacement of kick animation and ball movement you mentioned. Is there any way you can either a) stick these on youtube or b) get the pkm to us with times in the match where we can check these out? Its fine if you want to email or PM me.

I ask because the one thing we all think we have improved graphically this year is to reduce the "ice skating" of FM2012 significantly........

Thanks,

Paul

Ok I put up one PKM and posted in the bug forums here...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/324909-Player-and-ball-slide-on-the-field

The sliding is pretty much the entire match and there were a couple other items I noted, most specifically a very obvious flaw with the ball physics.

Edit: Since the game is so fresh and this a totally revamped ME I'll likely build on this with more examples as I play games.

[Fabio MVP]

Neil, Paul or someone from SI, I could use a little help regarding dropping PKM to the FTP. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/326481-FM-13.1.1-328972-%28m.e-v1312%29-Goalkeeper-heads-the-ball-instead-of-catching-it

[Neil Brock]

Sorry, i thought it was well known?

Even with fairly well know issues examples are always welcomed, as there's always a chance something specific may not have been picked up upon or realised. Thanks.

[Neil Brock]

Neil, Paul or someone from SI, I could use a little help regarding dropping PKM to the FTP. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/326481-FM-13.1.1-328972-(m.e-v1312)-Goalkeeper-heads-the-ball-instead-of-catching-it

Have replied, thanks.

[Neil Brock]

End of month or there about is current time scale

We never pre-announce update plans or schedules as there's always a chance things can come up during testing which could push this back. When we have further information we'll provide it. Thanks.

[wally13]

We never pre-announce update plans or schedules as there's always a chance things can come up during testing which could push this back. When we have further information we'll provide it. Thanks.

That was from what Paul said on the 30th of October Brock http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/309442-*Official*-Match-Engine-First-Impressions-thread?p=8215747#post8215747

[Fabio MVP]

Have replied, thanks.

Come on Neil, I'm not that amateur to don't know how to upload something on FTP. When I drag the file I can't drop it on FTP.

[Hit the upright]

Greater variation of play?

Every single team i've played against so far, play flowing Barca like one touch football, how varied is that exactly? oh and how realistic is it?

Yes it does seem like that at times I pointed it out in one of my first posts, my own view is that teams do not press in certain areas of the pitch, if that gets fixed then we will see more variation because it’s obvious the ME is capable of it. FM 2012 just played like Stoke it didn’t matter what tactics you employed the play was always direct, You may like that style of football it’s very English and many people think that’s how the game should be played, but I don’t. The ME when fixed should cater for all tastes FM2012 could never do that.

[Butters76]

Yes it does slow down. If it didn't it would never stop.

Well it doesn't, thats why you see soft placed shots roll all the way out for a throw in after its saved by the keeper.

Not to mention wingers decide its better to let the ball roll out to a throw when the opponments are out of balance on a counter, than to continue attacking.

[Shrewnaldo]

I'm really disappointed that the scout reports / coach reports now provide less information on a player's personality.

I was previously told that scouting for a longer period would bring more detail but it doesn't. Now, we only get the personality description (balanced / professional / ambitious / etc) whereas we would previously get a comparison between the player and your squad, e.g. your squad is of an ambitious nature and x player would fit in well.

Other than that, the things that I like and don't like have been well covered.

[lukair]

In relation to that and in response to luckair's issue, this is what I posted with regards to players not behaving like robots in the 2010 ME:

"There was a long discussion about where FBs should push to when the team had the ball and, having watched a lot of games, it seemed like the DM stratum pretty much set their position. Even with FWRs rarely and low CF, the FBs should push up a stratum. If they are going much further than that without PPMs suggesting they will, then I'd agree there is a problem. However (there's always a however), we also looked at players naturally surging in support, which might see the odd extra forward movement if it is a no-brainier option to go there in support."

The part I bolded is exactly the problem with the match engine that was introduced some time ago. The tactical decisions in many areas of the game fell out from the hands of the player(manager/tactician) to the game programers/creators.

There should never be any discussion like that. Why? Because it's not some Joe in the programmers booth who decides whether a player should behave a certain way, it's gamer/manager. The only thing there should be discussed is HOW to achieve those multiple possibilities. How to achieve that however a tactician will instruct, that this player will follow those instructions to:

a) those exact instructions

b) his characteristics (how well he can achieve those)

c) his personality (if he is very rebelious - think Balotelli, or if he is a person who keeps instructions to the letter - think say Javier Zanetti)

The problem is that the programmers stopped to try and give player tools to achieve a proper gameplay, but they did the opposite. They thought what the proper gameplay is, and then try to impose that on the gamers. That's why every year people must change their tactics, because the system changed, because how gameplay was "proper" a year ago is not proper now. That's why people can't aply same real life tactical principles in ever year with similar results in terms of gameplay.

Some, for example, TSH, have strongly agreed with this. I'm equally vehement in my opposition. The more robotically a player obeys his manager's instructions, the worse the ME will be. SI are attempting to simulate human behaviour.

Then you should be the first to criticise this issue. Cause the problem I shown couple years ago and you deffended it, was happening no matter what player I chose. It was universal problem, which you even admited by saying that "it was discussed and decided this player should behave that way". So isn't it robotic, that all players on that particular position were behaving so?

You cannot or any SI employer tell me that every single player on this earth is running out of defense when you gain possesion, and more importantly, that there is no player in the world who will obey a coach instruction to the letter.

If I'm playing in CL final, and I tell to all my deffenders. KEEP THE LINE AT ALL TIMES. You mean to tell me, that I cannot? Why?

There is simply no excuse in it. When I see that players, ALL PLAYERS universaly are ignoring my instructions(whatever they are) it means that either it is a bug that is recognised and will be fixed, or it is said that it is not a bug but somehow explain that it's normal, maybe cause it cannot be fixed with the way current match engine was built.

Secondly, nobody is telling that players should behave like robots. If I am giving a player instruction and I expect him to carry it to the best of his abbilities, am I saying he is a robot? This is ridiculous. Ofcourse player might not like to be controlled as rigid which he should tell me, or player could dissobey me which I will then react to (and bring other player who will), or I might give him some level of freedom, but saying that it is imposible, as this is what is being insinuated, to expect player to obey instructions is ridiculous.

Like robots mean that they will always act certain way, meaning move in this direction by that amount of steps so on and so on. This would mean that every player will behave identicaly in same situation. Nobody expects that. Every situation should be recognised with the circumstances, with player personality, with his characteristics. BUT that goes hand in hand with what manager tells players to do AND THEN those players are executing those instructions depending on couple factors one of which is how a player is listening to his coach instructions, and in probably 99% of cases players do listen to coaches instructions or otherwise they are substituted. I've seen instances when coaches sub players in 15'th or 20'th minute cause a player is willingly dissobeying what manager told him.

The problem in this case is that I cannot substitute an issubordinate player, because the next player or any other player for that matter will behave the exact same way, which means it is a bug or a game limitation.

Lastly to finish my post, I want to say that in my opinion creating this game in last years in terms of match engine, it seems that the creators are focusing on the outcome, on the whole thing in general not on the details to arrive to the outcome and this is a major problem. Not saying the details are not worked on, obviously I'm not saying that, but that the details are not the base, the outcome is. We want for the game to look like that or that (ultimetely), and then we program the virtual players to arrive at that outcome.

This whole idea should be thrown out and start from basics. Do not focus on the outcome, but focus on the building blocks(single player and his instructions). Once that is done properly the realistic gameplay will come as a result of all those building blocks interacting, not the other way around, which is the feeling at the moment. Start with basics, with single player and his instructions.

I would love for example to see how this game will behave in a training situation:

1 vs 1

1 vs 2

2 vs 1

2 vs 2

I would like to take some pieces from the team and put it against some oposition of my chosing and see how this situation will look like. It would very well say if the engine is done on the predicament of the outcome, not on the base which is individual player.

Then go to newer concepts like scripts, giving players instructions based on certain situations, based on the other player interactions to give gamer even more control of the tactical area of the game etc. That should be the direction this game should go to, but unfortunetly it is not.

And lastly, nobody is expecting "robots". Everybody please, stop with this talk. Instead think what would 9 out of 10 coaches probably do in a situation where player disobeys a clear coach instruction (think Creativity = 1)?

[Johnnyhugs]

End of month or there about is current time scale

End of month? damn looks like I will be without fm for a while ):

[jdrawmer]

I don't want to start bashing FM13 but in honesty, it's hard not to bash the ME. Everything else about the game so far is top drawer but the match and tactics engines are leaving me at a loss. I have no idea what is working and what isn't or how to countact certain things because nothing seems to make sense. It seems like every match, regardless of who I or my opposition are, is a battle of me trying to break them down and them hitting me on the break. Doesn't matter if i'm set up as a counter attacking side or they are.

What's really done it for me is the match i've just had. I'm in the lowest Swedish tier - all clubs have about the same quality player. My system was 4-2-3-1. Default everything except zonal marking so I could strip everything down to basics and try some shouts in the game.

I'm away from home against a team playing 4-5-1 - flat midfield. I start standard and stick with it for most of the game as it's pretty equal. I end up playing the whole match like this because let's be honest - touchline shouts really are shots in the dark as to whether they're gonna work or not.

Match finishes 0-0. Both teams mainly long shots no real chances but it's still 15-17 shots (4-2 on target for them). I have 63% possession which I find odd and then I notice 3 of my players had over 100 passes!!! This isn't Barcelona we're talking about and my passing was on default for the whole match. At a complete loss. That isn't how the system I employed or the players I played should be playing.

[Martyr1777]

Oh another thing I thought was odd about the pkm I uploaded.

Was a senior vs reserve friendly at the start of the preseason and there were 4 yellow cards. I don't ever remember seeing a single yellow card in any senior v reserve match and never 4 in any friendly in all the past editions. That stuck out to me as a possible issue.

[Wyer]

I can't think of anything constructive to say about the game.

Started several games up and not carried any of them on.

Its so difficult to get a working tactic, I don't want to rely on some1 elses tactic but its looking likely I'll have too if I want to play this any further.

I regret uninstalling FM12 as that was by far the best version of FM I've played.

[francesco85]

We can't change the background picture.Only can change default picture in the skin.Please help!!!

[wally13]

Generating match reports when you click on any result..... AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

So god damn annoying, makes the whole game unplayable as you cannot see how loan players are getting on, how players in your division are doing, how your reserves and under 18's get on....

Shouldn't have to wait to generate a match report when you just want simple stats like goals and player ratings...

SORT IT OUT

Its annoying i agree but unplayable is a bit over the top

[HuddersfieldOwl]

Skin when on your first team page and selecting players / picking your team

Looks like players are highlighted, then it doesn't ..... the dark highlight behind the player names was like the old highlighted players on FM2012

Why chose something so similar to the last version for a completely different meaning ?

[demonen]

If its happening to you and not happening to me, does that suggest its an AI issue or a human issue?

It's happening to the AI as well, which seems to suggest that it's not about human tactics. I have had my own share of stringing 20+ passes together within the opponents third.

Just compare the passing from a match report in-game to one from a real match; there is a vastly unproportional number of passes being played in the opponents third. There are probably several reasons for it, but I'd wager that the main one is that midfielders just aren't aggressive enough when it comes to closing down opponents who are ~20-25 yards away from their own goal.

Being pinned down in your own third like that of course happens less if you play with a very high line (which means they rarely have controlled possession in your third to begin with), but that doesn't make the problem go away.

When the ball goes wide I expect to see my fullbacks make challenges around the 25 yard line. I also expect my midfielders to track back and cover the angles. My defending team doesnt do things casually. I have even posted screenshots of an opposition player ganged up by a pack of players, and this was before the patch was even introduced. Back then I had to set any support player to hard tackling. Now I have them back on normal because they do tackle in dangerous areas.

The issue is that they fall back way too deep, leaving acres of space at the edge and around the penalty area.

And when the ball does arrive at the midfielder lurking outside the penalty area, it takes much too long to close him down, so he has all the time in the world to take a shot or pick out a pass.

[daylight]

Well I have been quite negative in my posting(mostly about the ME),I dislike being so negative so I will post some things I have really enjoyed seeing in this edition.

The DoF I think is a great addition,I only just got mine(money is tight at Tonbridge ),I think this addition once tweeked a bit will be 1 of those things that you wondered how you got by without it.

The graphics for the headers in the 3D highlights are really nice,with the pass back you can almost see they are cushioning the header and with the jumping header you can see them really spring for it.

It is nice to see the keeper saving with his legs,although this should be reduced quite a bit as it happens way to often,though still a great addition.

I also like that you have to make promises to the board such as attacking football,I doubt I would ever take a job that does not ask for this though as,well that is just how I roll

Stadiums feel more alive with camera men and mics,also players warming up and if I am not mistaken the physio is squatted down just outside the bench area,would still like to see the stadium empty a bit if the text says"their fans have seen enough of this" but maybe that will come at some point.

I have also noticed the board come and go a bit more with your requests,I got the finances sorted a bit at Tonbridge and asked for a higher wage budget in my first season,I normally do this but can not remember getting it approved,this time I did and I got an extra 500 quid a week,maybe not much to some but precious to me and my team building.

A lot to be happy about just a few bad things in the ME that needs sorting and a few improvements to the 3D highlights.

[HuddersfieldOwl]

Its annoying i agree but unplayable is a bit over the top

Why ?

What is the point in ANY football manager game when you simply cannot click on a match to look at the scores and how players did ? ?

There are so many occasions you want to look at a players rating, or who played etc, or which position someone started in, subs, scorers etc etc

At present it is impossible.... so for me, and many others... it is rendered unplayable

[TSH]

PaulC had said that in the update lower league teams will pass less,no idea if they will change the higher rep teams.

It is a change that I will be happy with as my Tonbridge side pass it way to much and ala Barca and I have them set up to play direct.

You do understand that if top teams, after the update, pass it around like Barca it will still be totally stupid and unrealistic, right?

[Hit the upright]

Just played Wimbledon in a pulsating end to end 2-2 draw, possibly the best game I’ve watched in any FM/CM season, no dodgy goals and only a few little I’m not sure about that moments, two great saves by my keeper at the feet of the Wimbledon strikers. Some passages of play that Fm 2012 couldn’t have gotten close to. I really good advert for how good this ME could be.

[wally13]

Why ?

What is the point in ANY football manager game when you simply cannot click on a match to look at the scores and how players did ? ?

There are so many occasions you want to look at a players rating, or who played etc, or which position someone started in, subs, scorers etc etc

At present it is impossible.... so for me, and many others... it is rendered unplayable

Yeah as i say its a pain and i don't like it mate so i'm with you, but it dose't make game unplayable surely ?? a pain yes unplayable no

[daylight]

You do understand that if top teams, after the update, pass it around like Barca it will still be totally stupid and unrealistic, right?

You did read that I said I have no idea if they will change the higher rep teams, right?

[Coen]

It's happening to the AI as well, which seems to suggest that it's not about human tactics. I have had my own share of stringing 20+ passes together within the opponents third.

Just compare the passing from a match report in-game to one from a real match; there is a vastly unproportional number of passes being played in the opponents third. There are probably several reasons for it, but I'd wager that the main one is that midfielders just aren't aggressive enough when it comes to closing down opponents who are ~20-25 yards away from their own goal.

Being pinned down in your own third like that of course happens less if you play with a very high line (which means they rarely have controlled possession in your third to begin with), but that doesn't make the problem go away.

The issue is that they fall back way too deep, leaving acres of space at the edge and around the penalty area.

And when the ball does arrive at the midfielder lurking outside the penalty area, it takes much too long to close him down, so he has all the time in the world to take a shot or pick out a pass.

I've noticed exactly the same thing; the other effect that this has on my own team is that my central midfielders are constantly either passing sideways/backwards or taking shots; even when they are set with long shots to rarely and attacking mentalities, they almost never try to do anything more risky (like, for example, trying to play a ball through to a striker in the penalty area.)

[Fabio MVP]

Is it known bug when you score goals that they don't add up on the score board? I won 5-1 but it only says 3-1.

[TSH]

"There was a long discussion about where FBs should push to when the team had the ball and, having watched a lot of games, it seemed like the DM stratum pretty much set their position. Even with FWRs rarely and low CF, the FBs should push up a stratum. If they are going much further than that without PPMs suggesting they will, then I'd agree there is a problem. However (there's always a however), we also looked at players naturally surging in support, which might see the odd extra forward movement if it is a no-brainier option to go there in support."

The part I bolded is exactly the problem with the match engine that was introduced some time ago. The tactical decisions in many areas of the game fell out from the hands of the player(manager/tactician) to the game programers/creators.

There should never be any discussion like that. Why? Because it's not some Joe in the programmers booth who decides whether a player should behave a certain way, it's gamer/manager. The only thing there should be discussed is HOW to achieve those multiple possibilities. How to achieve that however a tactician will instruct, that this player will follow those instructions to:

a) those exact instructions

b) his characteristics (how well he can achieve those)

c) his personality (if he is very rebelious - think Balotelli, or if he is a person who keeps instructions to the letter - think say Javier Zanetti)

The problem is that the programmers stopped to try and give player tools to achieve a proper gameplay, but they did the opposite. They thought what the proper gameplay is, and then try to impose that on the gamers. That's why every year people must change their tactics, because the system changed, because how gameplay was "proper" a year ago is not proper now. That's why people can't aply same real life tactical principles in ever year with similar results in terms of gameplay.

Then you should be the first to criticise this issue. Cause the problem I shown couple years ago and you deffended it, was happening no matter what player I chose. It was universal problem, which you even admited by saying that "it was discussed and decided this player should behave that way". So isn't it robotic, that all players on that particular position were behaving so?

You cannot or any SI employer tell me that every single player on this earth is running out of defense when you gain possesion, and more importantly, that there is no player in the world who will obey a coach instruction to the letter.

If I'm playing in CL final, and I tell to all my deffenders. KEEP THE LINE AT ALL TIMES. You mean to tell me, that I cannot? Why?

There is simply no excuse in it. When I see that players, ALL PLAYERS universaly are ignoring my instructions(whatever they are) it means that either it is a bug that is recognised and will be fixed, or it is said that it is not a bug but somehow explain that it's normal, maybe cause it cannot be fixed with the way current match engine was built.

Secondly, nobody is telling that players should behave like robots. If I am giving a player instruction and I expect him to carry it to the best of his abbilities, am I saying he is a robot? This is ridiculous. Ofcourse player might not like to be controlled as rigid which he should tell me, or player could dissobey me which I will then react to (and bring other player who will), or I might give him some level of freedom, but saying that it is imposible, as this is what is being insinuated, to expect player to obey instructions is ridiculous.

Like robots mean that they will always act certain way, meaning move in this direction by that amount of steps so on and so on. This would mean that every player will behave identicaly in same situation. Nobody expects that. Every situation should be recognised with the circumstances, with player personality, with his characteristics. BUT that goes hand in hand with what manager tells players to do AND THEN those players are executing those instructions depending on couple factors one of which is how a player is listening to his coach instructions, and in probably 99% of cases players do listen to coaches instructions or otherwise they are substituted. I've seen instances when coaches sub players in 15'th or 20'th minute cause a player is willingly dissobeying what manager told him.

The problem in this case is that I cannot substitute an issubordinate player, because the next player or any other player for that matter will behave the exact same way, which means it is a bug or a game limitation.

Lastly to finish my post, I want to say that in my opinion creating this game in last years in terms of match engine, it seems that the creators are focusing on the outcome, on the whole thing in general not on the details to arrive to the outcome and this is a major problem. Not saying the details are not worked on, obviously I'm not saying that, but that the details are not the base, the outcome is. We want for the game to look like that or that (ultimetely), and then we program the virtual players to arrive at that outcome.

This whole idea should be thrown out and start from basics. Do not focus on the outcome, but focus on the building blocks(single player and his instructions). Once that is done properly the realistic gameplay will come as a result of all those building blocks interacting, not the other way around, which is the feeling at the moment. Start with basics, with single player and his instructions.

I would love for example to see how this game will behave in a training situation:

1 vs 1

1 vs 2

2 vs 1

2 vs 2

I would like to take some pieces from the team and put it against some oposition of my chosing and see how this situation will look like. It would very well say if the engine is done on the predicament of the outcome, not on the base which is individual player.

Then go to newer concepts like scripts, giving players instructions based on certain situations, based on the other player interactions to give gamer even more control of the tactical area of the game etc. That should be the direction this game should go to, but unfortunetly it is not.

And lastly, nobody is expecting "robots". Everybody please, stop with this talk. Instead think what would 9 out of 10 coaches probably do in a situation where player disobeys a clear coach instruction (think Creativity = 1)?

This is one of the things I've been shouting about for many years with this game. The design behind it is flawed because it asks the players to learn to play the way the ME (TM included) is made, not the other way around, which would be the proper way of playing and true sandbox. The game has the pretense of being a sandbox but it's one of the most linear games in the market. But this is not gonna change if some proper changes are not being implemented, and that will never happen as long as people don't understand the problems. I won't talk about the press because their reviews are laughable, marketing drivel.

You did read that I said I have no idea if they will change the higher rep teams, right?

Argh! Wrong quote mate, sorries!

[DrizzitD]

Is it known bug when you score goals that they don't add up on the score board? I won 5-1 but it only says 3-1.

I would report that one in the bug forum with a uploaded pkm if I were you.

[demonen]

There seems to be some issues with defending set pieces: http://imgur.com/YA7iX,SDyFU,a4KMa#0.

Bosingwa hits a long ball to Cisse (in the inside left position), who is completely free with the goalkeeper. I'm not entirely sure what is going on here, but there is definitely something wrong with the positioning of my defenders...

[jdrawmer]

Please, tell me i'm not the only FM loving player that's feeling like this?

I am really struggling to find enjoyment with the match engine / tactics engine (whatever is causing this). And let me just get this straight - The rest of the game is amazing, it really is. I'm going to try and explain it as best I can.

I like to start my careers in the lower leagues. Started as a lower league Swedish club. I've got a standard lower league swedish team - everybody is about the same level.

Decided to first try out a 4-2-3-1 formation. Tried to make it balanced because i'm working with a new ME so don't know how creative freedom, closing down, tackling, roaming etc. will effect the games. I have a reasonable start (1-1-1 after a similar pre-season), but find myself watching matches and having absolutely no clue whatsoever as to what to change. Players are acting ******** half of the time (3 players ignoring the ball to allow 1 opposition through on goal, pushing up when a) i'm not playing offside trap and b) the ball has gone the opposite direction - you get the idea) so how am I supposed to know what is down to the engines bugs, what is down to my tactics vs their tactics, and what is down to players limitations? If familiarity is important, then why are we, the players, at such a disadvantage by having to start with an unfarmiliar tactic straight away? If I want to start a match with a different mentality, the familiarity is bumped down - yet i'm handicapped by only being able to have 3 available tactics. Do I really want to waste 3 slots on the same system with different mentalities? Where does it tell me how important these things are!?

Shouldn't this be intuitive? Shouldn't I be able to pick up indicators about what the game is telling me to improve my chances? It wasn't so bad on FM12 because it was fairly easy to drop any old system together as long as it semi-made sense, and you'd do ok. I'm not saying that's any better than this, I totally get the need to get away from that and I really WANT to find my way into FM13's tactics. I want to be mixing it up depending on other things but where am I supposed to learn what to change for what opposition system/players/weather etc.

Who wants to start a career for the sole purpose of spending season after season adjusting to the ME (which changes with almost every patch anyway so you're essentially learning a new game). Telling me we're missing too many short passes doesn't tell me anything. Should I go more direct? If they aren't hitting short passes though, what makes me think they're going to hit more difficult ones? If i'm restricting them to just long shots (a positive remark), then why does it feel like i'm getting absolutely nowhere and if anybody is going to score it's them? Why can they hit me on the break at will, no matter what combination of systems i'm playing, yet they build a defensive wall?

More importantly, are you even supposed to listen to this stuff? And who is telling me this stuff? My assistant? What if he's just telling me bad info because he's a rubbish assistant.

I can't express how much I WANT to enjoy it. How much I want to feel like "yes - i changed that because it looked like i needed to push up and press more and it worked". or "Looked like I was getting dominated in midfield so dropping that striker back helped", but that really doesn't happen. Maybe it's just me.

What really did it for me though, was the following match:

so i'm a few games in, sticking with a very balanced and 'default' approach to passing, creative freedom, pressing etc. and i decide to play a full match just with the default - only changing the mentality as required to see what happens. It's an away game, and I'm up against a middle of the road team playing 5 across the middle and 4 at the back. Pretty defensive, but I expect them to have a fair bit of the ball.

Turns out they play better, but me (Who has default passing and distinctly average players, remember), has just turned into barcelona with 3 players hitting over 100 passes! Incredible! Except a) I didn't tell them to do that, at all and b) it resulted in absolutely no benefits whatsover! That's not the style I want to employ! How did they even manage that!?

What am I supposed to learn from this match and the analysis i'm presented with when the results are like this? What am I supposed to do if 3 players can have over 100 passes yet in the WHOLE MATCH, only 1 pass from my side was a 'key pass'!?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Sorry for the mash of a post just a bit of a brain dump.

[Butters76]

Is it known bug when you score goals that they don't add up on the score board? I won 5-1 but it only says 3-1.

Wow, is that one back? It has been in several earlier FM releases and has been fixed every time with updates/patches. Amazed it keeps returning with new versions. (if indeed it has, that is. Haven't seen it myself in 13)

[Fabio MVP]

I would report that one in the bug forum with a uploaded pkm if I were you.

Already did. I have problems uploading it to FTP though.

Wow, is that one back? It has been in several earlier FM releases and has been fixed every time with updates/patches. Amazed it keeps returning with new versions. (if indeed it has, that is. Haven't seen it myself in 13)

Looks liek it is. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/326526-FM-13.1.1-328972-%28m.e-v1312%29-Two-scored-goals-aren-t-registred

[joycie88]

Been playing against Stoke over and over again (around 6/7 times) trying to get a tactic that feels right, but I just can't get a good game out of my team (Arsenal). I set my players to high pressing and hard tackling, but you would be lucky to see your players tackle the opponent in any highlights. Stoke are just allowed to ping the ball around our final third with no pressure.

Defenders don't seem to be reacting to through balls properly, at one point 3 of my defenders were chasing the same ball, then just stopped! Letting the opposition striker take it and run clean through.

An issue with free kicks too, free kick is taken straight down the middle. My defenders stand still, letting the opposition striker take a couple of touches and pass the ball into the back of the net unopposed. Happened twice, never seen anything like it! (wish I saved these goals, but rage quitted to try tinkering the tactics again)

Wingers always seem to be a huge problem, never tackled. Probably due to the lack of pressing or tackling from players altogether.

Strange goalkeeping animation when 'saving', karate kicking the ball away despite the shot not being straight at them (and the impracticality).

Players making very unrealistic passes when through on goal, ridiculously heavy touches in the middle of the pitch, ball animations for direct free kicks looks a bit 'floaty' (might just be me that one).

Don't think i'm going to be playing the game for a while, but if I do i'll be sure to save any dodgy moments and post them.

[Sarin1]

Things to drastically fix the game

- implement a midfield battle and much better movement on closing down. Rather then the current drop 10 players into the box while the other team passes like barca.

- make player movement better for receiving the ball, rather then standing in 1 position with a player between them and the ball carrier

- make teams that go behind TRY AND WIN, any team that ever goes 1-0 down just defends deep with 10 men. If they are behind they should press for a goal.

[wally13]

Things to drastically fix the game

- implement a midfield battle and much better movement on closing down. Rather then the current drop 10 players into the box while the other team passes like barca.

- make player movement better for receiving the ball, rather then standing in 1 position with a player between them and the ball carrier

- make teams that go behind TRY AND WIN, any team that ever goes 1-0 down just defends deep with 10 men. If they are behind they should press for a goal.

Your 1st point about closing down i 100% agree with needs to be better.. your other 2 points can and most probably are tactic related

[junker]

I bet it's not that far from the truth tbh...

I can see that they had a better pass completion and a better tackling completion and took their chances, I would take a wager that most of your's were from long range. But of course, it's all speculation given I can't see the stats.

But take a look at the everton v fulham match... everton completely outplayed them but still only came out with a draw...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/match/2012/nov/03/fulham-v-everton

that's just an example of course.. but you see what I'm saying

Is it my poor eyesight or didnt he have the better pass completion ???

[mightysporticus]

does anyone else get a key moment when the final whistle goes?? really really hate it, what has really annoyed me aswell is I played a whole game today without any key moments. i had over 10 shots on target about 60% possession i set my team to 'overload' for most of the second half but had nothing..obviously apart from the final whistle also played another game and was drawing 1-1 until about 93minutes where we scored, btw im playing as man united and i was playing west brom at home, so we should of really had an easy victory, in my team talk I said calmy that we just got away with that and we should step it up against better opposition and now they all hate me. i understand that this game has got alot harder because of all the things you need to account for but if i wanted a challenge i would of started of as a lower league team. fm12 was the best fm game and this is the worst, I will in no doubt go back to fm12 and will probably not purchase another FM.

[wwfan]

And lastly, nobody is expecting "robots". Everybody please, stop with this talk. Instead think what would 9 out of 10 coaches probably do in a situation where player disobeys a clear coach instruction (think Creativity = 1)?

The issue we are having in interpretation of the individual sliders. The ME, TC and game in general is built around them being conceptually linked. You want them to be individual tools that operate independently of each other. Because of this, we cannot help but talk at cross purposes. I think it is meaningless to talk about what a player should do with mentality 1, creativity 1 without talking the rest of the formation and strategy into consideration. You think the slider notches are everything and should result in movement totally independent of what else is going on in a tactical system.

Ultimately, we are never going to get anywhere as I'm not going to budge and I doubt you are either. All I can advise is that since FM10, concepts have been far more important than tools in the ME. If you don't think that is a step forward, I'm sorry, but that is how things work.

[Martyr1777]

The issue we are having in interpretation of the individual sliders. The ME, TC and game in general is built around them being conceptually linked. You want them to be individual tools that operate independently of each other. Because of this, we cannot help but talk at cross purposes. I think it is meaningless to talk about what a player should do with mentality 1, creativity 1 without talking the rest of the formation and strategy into consideration. You think the slider notches are everything and should result in movement totally independent of what else is going on in a tactical system.

Ultimately, we are never going to get anywhere as I'm not going to budge and I doubt you are either. All I can advise is that since FM10, concepts have been far more important than tools in the ME. If you don't think that is a step forward, I'm sorry, but that is how things work.

Side with wwfan on this...

However, when the concept in mind isn't understood by the ME we still need the tools to work to muscle the ME into our concept for it to work right.

Again the most obvious example is why my players are all taking long shots when I want through balls. Granted that is fairly easy to fix, but it makes the point.

[Kingofpilot]

O.K. guys I will give you my opinion on this game and the series. (Iam not a native speaker so excuse my grammar). I really like the game (overall as a computer game) and the entire series, however, Iam done with it because as a football simulation it really lacks a lot. I know you (SI) have probably heard it like thousand times, but it doesn´t matter how many new features there are every year as long as the basic things are flawed. Iam not saying this game sucks, but I can not help myself, I´ve been seeing the same flaws in the ME for years. It seems that every year there is something repaired but at the same time a new flaw appears. There are so many bugs in this new ME that I really understand people who are angry, and quite frankly Iam one of them, even though I understand it´s difficult to simulate football. One of my biggest complaints every year is that while I create literally dozens of goalscoring chances, I rarely convert them while CPU tends to have quite the opposite "problem", it is prolific. I recall quitting a season in FM 2012 after so many ******** games where i had 15+ shots on target and no goal and computer converted exactly one shot almost every time. Iam not lying, I remember that throughout 29 games I had 15 shots on average while comp. had 2. And he always scored at least one goal. These are the things that literally ruin the gameplay and unfortunately this year it is the same. Why? Is it so to make the game more difficult? Also how such a buggy engine could have been released in a full game is beyond me. You want constructive criticism and feedback and I understand, but i want a polished product for 30 pounds, not a raw something that will probably be pretty good in 6 months time. Regarding this years ME, the biggest flaws to me are: Poor closing down in certain areas of the pitch(Mainly in front of penalty box), defenders are afraid of ball and tackling, their marking is joke, especially fullbacks are just..well...poor. Way, way too many shots. It looks like hockey. Goalkeepers make unbelievable saves only to later concede goal from halfline or poor free kick. Players do not obey your commands(especially ball distribution by keepers is bad). Players can score and instead they pass back or take a shot from 20 yards even though they are free on keeper.(But they would not score from one on one anyway) Also this year the ME is so unpredictable that sometimes you can have a decent realistic game and the next time you just say: W..T...F. This is not a rant and I by now means want to insult anyone.