*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

[wwfan]

But it IS ineffective.

There is absolutely no pressing or closing down of players outside your 18 yard box. It's especially noticable when the ball is wide; your midfielders will fall back into the defensive line, and leave the opposing midfielders unmarked. When the ball is passed back to these midfielders, the defending team will press very casually, allowing for very long spells of possession in the final thirds.

It's completely unrealistic behaviour, and it appears to happen regardless of how you have set up the pressing and defensive line.

There's loads of closing down all over the pitch. Watch the game Butters76 uploaded. Players pressing and flying in everywhere. The problem is that this closing down suddenly seems to stop when the opposition get controlled possession in the final third. I suspect it is down to the midfield getting too focused on strikers and getting compressed into the d-line and secondary players not moving up the pitch in support of the press, which both trap the d-line deep.

[wwfan]

After a couple of shocking results for my team against Rangers and Dundee Utd I read wwfan's posts on here and well they say pictures speak a thousand words, here's my results screen including and after those two games and after implementing wwfan's advice

Thanks wwfan for taking the time to give me a much better understanding if the new ME and making me realise my wide 4-2-3-1 with a lone poacher I tried to port directly from FM12 needed some adjustment to be effective in this version. I changed my poacher to a Treq, set one midfielder to defend (they were on support and attack previously), my fullbacks were on defend, so I switched one to attack (with the winger on his side on support) and the results speak for themselves.

Glad I could help. How does the football look?

[valdis43]

Disappointing ME. Everything feels random. The game looks like some ice hockey pinball. Players sliding, keepers blocking with tackling, ball hitting players back all the time. Is it so difficult to build a game from the basis of the previous ME? This is much worse than 12's engine. Results are also extremely random. Everytime a winger crosses in your area, u just pray since your defenders roam without clue around your keeper. Too many faults. I love that game and play it since 97/98. Hope u can make it right as soon as possible. Its the first time i feel so disappointed with the first version of the product. All the additions are nice but what is most important in such a game is the ME. If this is broken then everything else in that game has no meaning! With respect and love

+1. Change the field to white and the ball to black and call it ice hockey manager 2013. The physics look like a step backwards. Lots of nice new features in the game, like the director of football and new training system, but its irrelevant with a match engine that belongs in the early 90s, not the modern computing era.

[PaulC]

I think if I didn't have a thick skin I wouldn't come anywhere near this thread

But I am a bit sick of some of the infantile throwing of toys from the pram, and in some cases, trolling.

Its time some people on these forums grew up a bit or it will end with these forums being completely marginalised which would be a terrible thing.

Now back to fixing some genuine issues for the next update

[Martyr1777]

In relation to that and in response to luckair's issue, this is what I posted with regards to players not behaving like robots in the 2010 ME:

Add in the increased CF that players have in Fluid and Very Fluid philosophies and you will see different degrees of movement an decision making. I think luckair's statement sums up the key issue many are having. He argues:

Some, for example, TSH, have strongly agreed with this. I'm equally vehement in my opposition. The more robotically a player obeys his manager's instructions, the worse the ME will be. SI are attempting to simulate human behaviour. Humans do not behave like robots. They make decisions, some good, some bad, and do their best to cope with those decisions. The user manager can give them some parameters within which these decisions can fall, but they cannot determine absolute movement at all times. That would result in a horrid mess of a game.

I still believe that many user issues come down to tactical styles that are one-dimensional. Nothing I've read or seen in this thread suggests otherwise. These styles are not achieving because of the development of collision detection. Over time, people will work out how to develop tactics that are less one-dimesnional and everything will calm down again.

I'm going to try to argue the middle of the 'human' behavior vs robot instruction. Obviously there is no point in having players that are just a grouping of attributes but behave EXACTLY as you tell them. But at the same time the game doesn't give us the full level of options as RL has to get a player to do what is expected as a manager. If we have a player in our squad doing things we don't like we're limited to basically dropping them. I can't give a player directed training on his decision making if he's taking bad chances on goal. I can't discipline a player for not doing whats expected of him (unless he's got a low rating, which players can have a high rating even if they aren't doing what you want).

There are too many holes for there to be -TOO MUCH- leeway in what the players do vs what you're instruct them. Yes there should be some variation especially if you give them creative freedom, but acting as managers without real life level interaction they do have to behave robotic -TO A DEGREE-.

And in the past i have had quality players that just didn't do anything the way I expected and the only option i had was to drop them for another player that did do things that fit my game plan.

[Herbert Fandel]

Would adding on the options screen the ability to use the 2012 match engine help for now? What I understand from other developers is sega have a habit of pushing developers to release games before the developers are happy with them. There's a lot of unhappiness on this forum and a match engine overhaul is a huge amount of work which will unsurprisingly have a number of bugs to fix before it is as refined as the old model, but adding the ability to play with the 2012 match engine while keeping the other 2013 upgrades I imagine will have a lot happier customers.

Although I am sure none of them would be able to admit it, comments like this, or moreso the mentality that this comment reflects, must have the devs banging their heads off the walls. I am not sure how to explain it, but along the lines of 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'. The FM13 engine is better than the FM 12 one, which is fact. What is currently preventing the wider-holding of this opinion is some errors within the ME, such as interesting animations and also that people are finding it less enjoyable than FM12.

This creates a very difficult stand-off. The devs have spent a year making an ME which, although not perfect, is undoubtedly better (more realistic) than before, and looking at 95% of the comments here it really does seem that, rather than actually using their brains, most people are just unhappy because they can't exploit it like they did FM12. The other side of the stand-off is that some people have paid their money with a view to their own enjoyment, rather than realism, and the fact they are having to re-learn is making them not enjoy it, with the not-yet perfected animation quirks giving them easy fodder to further tell themselves they don't like the new ME. But at the end of the day, if they don't like it, that is their right, and can't be called a wrong opinion, even if the reasons and lack of open-mindedness behind it are infuriating to the devs.

Given the tone of some of the comments, SI staff are doing a very good job of showing restraint, and not just replying 'You will like it once you get used to it' to every criticism; an answer which, given the existence of patching, is surely correct.

I for one am sold by the new ME, look forward to it being improved, and am shocked by the complete lack of intelligence in opinions of a number of posters here. (again accepting that there is no requirement for a paying customer to display intelligence)

[slipknot67]

Glad I could help. How does the football look?

I play my matches on commentary only due to my pc only having integrated graphics I'm afraid.

[Neil Brock]

Someone stated in an earlier post:

If you think they're not following rules and etiquette of this forum you (not just yourself personally ofc) just need to employ harsher modding

Okay, we're now going to employee harsher modding - we'd prefer all feedback to be constructive from this point on, thanks.

[Govnar1]

This is regularly happening when i try to quit game after playing for more then one hour:

Football Manager 2013 13.1.1f328972 has stopped working

Problem signature:

Problem Event Name: APPCRASH

Application Name: fm.exe

Application Version: 13.1.1.1292

Application Timestamp: 5093d780

Fault Module Name: fm.exe

Fault Module Version: 13.1.1.1292

Fault Module Timestamp: 5093d780

Exception Code: c0000005

Exception Offset: 01492d5c

OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1

Locale ID: 1050

Additional Information 1: 0a9e

Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

Additional Information 3: 0a9e

Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

[asdpoo]

slipknot67 can you link the wwfan's post you are referring to? I'd like to help myself, too

[Kriss]

Then, of course, developers should recognize if these anomalies are ME bugs or just a different, practical application of a revised AI.

That does require people to report them objectively and with evidence where appropriate.

[bieritarier]

I'm baffled too, as generally I think its fine! Sorry.

Generally yes, but I can understand where the guys are coming from. How often do you see a keeper make a save IRL where the ball afterwards goes out the touchline? Happens quite often in the game. Not a huge problem. I'd rather have pressing in the final third and unreal mistakes sorted out .

And I'd really like to get some more consitency into my team's performances. Maybe that'll come once I can read the game better (as right now it is hard to tell what the reason for the opponent suddenly dominating is since all teams just pass the ball around the penalty box largely uncontested no matter what).

Just to say while I do rant a bit if something is wrong take my silence on the other stuff as a sign that I'm really happy with it. apart from minor stuff that had been mentioned already the game is great, especially transfers and development of youngsters. Though I'm not conviced players go for the better contract when taking after tax into account - had offered a player less money before tax but compared to the offer he accepted it was better after tax. since I tend to offer a lot of bonuses rather than flat out yearly salaries the bonus payments were a lot better as well. My reputation was better than the team he went for and league reputation as well (FC Bayern my team after winning CL, other team PSG). Will keep an eye on that.

[Neil Brock]

This is regularly happening when i try to quit game after playing for more then one hour:

Football Manager 2013 13.1.1f328972 has stopped working

Problem signature:

Problem Event Name: APPCRASH

Application Name: fm.exe

Application Version: 13.1.1.1292

Application Timestamp: 5093d780

Fault Module Name: fm.exe

Fault Module Version: 13.1.1.1292

Fault Module Timestamp: 5093d780

Exception Code: c0000005

Exception Offset: 01492d5c

OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1

Locale ID: 1050

Additional Information 1: 0a9e

Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

Additional Information 3: 0a9e

Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

Yeah it's an issue we're aware of, it won't cause any issues with your game and your save will save normally. We're looking into it, thanks.

[wwfan]

I play my matches on commentary only due to my pc only having integrated graphics I'm afraid.

I'm sure it would be very pretty if you could see it. Well, as pretty as the SPL gets anyway.

[Martyr1777]

I think if I didn't have a thick skin I wouldn't come anywhere near this thread

But I am a bit sick of some of the infantile throwing of toys from the pram, and in some cases, trolling.

Its time some people on these forums grew up a bit or it will end with these forums being completely marginalised which would be a terrible thing.

Now back to fixing some genuine issues for the next update

Glad you have a thick skin Paul.. honestly don't get why devs get into game development if they don't have a thick skin. People know how the industry works.

But that being said. You guys know how to take the credible issues from the non-credible. Just ignore the guys spouting crap. I mean I'm a pretty harsh critic of the game because I see its potential and enjoy the concept very much. I do try to be constructive when I'm around though, harsh but constructive.

That being said, over the last few years I've not see changes to many of the most annoying aspects that have gotten lots of credible feedback. So I think there is an equal amount of frustration on both sides.

But this is off topic, just had to say.

[slipknot67]

slipknot67 can you link the wwfan's post you are referring to? I'd like to help myself, too

Main observations.

Match: Southampton are obviously playing a high tempo, high aggression, high closing down game. You are also playing an aggressive closing down game. Consequently, there are loads of passages of play when teams are giving away fouls and play is disjointed. That is to be expected given the defensive systems each team is using.

As the superior team, you could have dropped deeper in possession and drawn them out on the press, giving you opportunities to pick them apart on the counter. However, your control based game is designed to be broken up by an aggressive pressing system.

There is actually loads of aggressive pressing and tackling in this game until Southampton lose a man. The issue is that both teams suddenly stop pressing when the opposition gets controlled possession in the final third. Something for the ME team to look at in more detail I think.

Tactics: My first observation is that using a poacher in a lone forward situation is very risky. The poacher doesn't contribute enough to all round play to be an effective lone forward. You are compounding this risk by channelling all the balls through to him. It looks to me that the only way you are trying to score is to feed the poacher with TBs from deep. For me, that is 100% an FM12 way of playing, because it is looking to take advantage of the lack of collision detection, allowing a quick poacher to run riot. I'd be looking to work out a secondary route of attack, so the AI is forced to defend play from multiple avenues. This can be having the lone forward drop deeper (CF/S, DLF/S, TQ) and have the wingers move into the space he creates, or have him as an AF roaming wider, allowing an MC to break into the central space.

Another risky element is not having a single midfielder on a defend duty. This can result in your DCs being isolated against the counter, as nobody is covering them. You will be getting away with it to an extent because both your FBs are only on Support duties, which will restrict them going forward too much. However, it also restricts your passing angles in the final third. It also compresses play in the final third as there is no MC sitting behind play to provide a safe outpass when the team is running out of options.

The poacher, role/duty combos and non-overlapping FBs all contribute to the channelling of passes to the single target point issue that was so prevalent in FM12 super-tactics. The FM13 engine should allow AI sides to comfortably defend against this type of tactic, as would real life football teams. It will be much too easy for the AI to prevent your team playing controlled football, as it can compress space around the single target point and prevent him from being a danger. You are basically restricting your own options and relying on superior players to pull you through. You might be scoring a number of late goals as AI teams are forced to come at you if you have snuck a lead. In these instances, the single point of target can be useful, as he'll stay high and be a danger on the counter. However, with a controlled approach, not recommended.

I'd also be wary about choosing manual slider overrides. The changes you made prevent some of the shouts you are using from working as intended. That might be what you want. If it is, be wary as to how much you want to press with a line that deep.

Here you are Asdpoo:thup:

[Keyzer Soze]

I was wondering one thing... the "players look like they move on ice" issue is related with the ME or with the graphical part of the game?

The same for some weird stuff the gk are doing?

[edgar555]

The issue is that genuine issues and possible bugs are getting bogged down and lost in the thread.

If people have a genuine issue or bug found... post it in the bug reporting forums and it will get looked at, logged and solved if needed.

Merely getting angry and ranting on here will not get your issue solved.

SI are in a very small majority of games developers who wish their fanbase to have a large influence over the games development and the transparency they show should be commended.

When did you become a mod?

Back on topic:

PaulC stated earlier something about AMR/L not tracking back as much. Can I ask why they aren't tracking back? Is this a deliberate ploy? Because, plenty of players who play AMR/L do track back and help their defence IRL. Much more than I've ever seen in any FM, with any set of instructions. Take Bale and Lennon at Spurs as an example, they both play very high up the pitch, Spurs setting up in what would in FM be the 4231 wide formation. Yet they constantly track back and help their full backs. Those are just two examples, the vast majority of AMR/L will track back IRL, some more than others but thats more often than not down to them having lower work rate/team work than their managers instructions.

My own experiences of this ME, are that it is vastly improved from beta but there are a number of serious issues ('real issues' that are being worked on) and I kept help but think that the late in the day decision to roll out this new ME was a mistake. SI could have avoided a lot of the flak they are taking in this thread (some of it is way over the top, but some have genuine points that get lost in the hyperbole) if they'd gone with an evolution of the 12.3 engine and given PaulC another year on the new ME.

[TSH]

wwfan, I have never said that the players should robotically behave like they are instructed. There is a big difference between a robot and a player who follows (or at least tries to follow) a manager's instructions. A HUGE difference.

[Herbert Fandel]

Much more than I've ever seen in any FM, with any set of instructions.....

SI could have avoided a lot of the flak they are taking in this thread (some of it is way over the top, but some have genuine points that get lost in the hyperbole) if they'd gone with an evolution of the 12.3 engine and given PaulC another year on the new ME.

But you just said the old one didn't fix it either. I think a lot of people are confusing the reactions 'this ME isn't perfect', with 'the old ME was better', as they are only looking at their results (using old tactics) and deriving their enjoyment from that. As I said, the FM 13 ME isn't perfect, which is giving ammunition to people's doubts, but it is my strongly held opinion that the underlying foundation of most people's FM 13 ME criticism is wrong, but they can't see past the valid bits to realise that.

[wwfan]

wwfan, I have never said that the players should robotically behave like they are instructed. There is a big difference between a robot and a player who follows (or at least tries to follow) a manager's instructions. A HUGE difference.

I refer you to post #1406. You agreed with luckair, who was making exactly the 'players should robotically follow manager's instructions' argument.

[wwfan]

When did you become a mod?

Back on topic:

PaulC stated earlier something about AMR/L not tracking back as much. Can I ask why they aren't tracking back? Is this a deliberate ploy? Because, plenty of players who play AMR/L do track back and help their defence IRL. Much more than I've ever seen in any FM, with any set of instructions. Take Bale and Lennon at Spurs as an example, they both play very high up the pitch, Spurs setting up in what would in FM be the 4231 wide formation. Yet they constantly track back and help their full backs. Those are just two examples, the vast majority of AMR/L will track back IRL, some more than others but thats more often than not down to them having lower work rate/team work than their managers instructions.

My own experiences of this ME, are that it is vastly improved from beta but there are a number of serious issues ('real issues' that are being worked on) and I kept help but think that the late in the day decision to roll out this new ME was a mistake. SI could have avoided a lot of the flak they are taking in this thread (some of it is way over the top, but some have genuine points that get lost in the hyperbole) if they'd gone with an evolution of the 12.3 engine and given PaulC another year on the new ME.

As far as I recall, AM tracking back will be influenced by a number of his attributes. Any teamwork, workrate or positioning failure, and his tracking will be half-hearted or comically inept at best. Hence, Christiano Ronaldo might regularly stay high and let his FB deal with the threat. In contrast, a workhorse like Lennon will nearly always track back.

[Martyr1777]

My own experiences of this ME, are that it is vastly improved from beta but there are a number of serious issues ('real issues' that are being worked on) and I kept help but think that the late in the day decision to roll out this new ME was a mistake. SI could have avoided a lot of the flak they are taking in this thread (some of it is way over the top, but some have genuine points that get lost in the hyperbole) if they'd gone with an evolution of the 12.3 engine and given PaulC another year on the new ME.

Then you get the same complaints about the old ME. Its not a win win situation I'll give you that. But this goes back to what I've said in the past about the team being too small and not having enough time to really work out the problems in any portion of any edition of the game.

The revamped ME is one thing that got me looking into 2013 this early instead of just waiting for a couple months. I was so sick of seeing the same annoying parts each year that were so obvious but not getting attention. Namely defensive positioning and mistakes that were just dumb. Always knew when a goal was about to be scored because the defenders were suddenly visually playing a lot worse then earlier.

But reading this thread I question if it was released early, the demo just finished down loading and if that is the same ME then I should have a better idea in a while personally. But to be honest I'm not holding my breath, but do have my fingers crossed lol.

But yeah, either way they would have gotten heat, just think team needs more time of just bug fixing, especially with the new ME and new physics.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Now back to fixing some genuine issues for the next update

Sorry for banging that same drum again but here's an illustration.

Some random real life match

FM12

FM13

Sure, these are just random examples. But you don't need to play either game for long to see a pattern. I'd still like to know if this is at least acknowledged as a problem and if there is a plan of changing things for the game to reflect reality, shall we say, a bit more closely?

[Neil Brock]

When did you become a mod?

Back on topic:

PaulC stated earlier something about AMR/L not tracking back as much. Can I ask why they aren't tracking back? Is this a deliberate ploy? Because, plenty of players who play AMR/L do track back and help their defence IRL. Much more than I've ever seen in any FM, with any set of instructions. Take Bale and Lennon at Spurs as an example, they both play very high up the pitch, Spurs setting up in what would in FM be the 4231 wide formation. Yet they constantly track back and help their full backs. Those are just two examples, the vast majority of AMR/L will track back IRL, some more than others but thats more often than not down to them having lower work rate/team work than their managers instructions.

My own experiences of this ME, are that it is vastly improved from beta but there are a number of serious issues ('real issues' that are being worked on) and I kept help but think that the late in the day decision to roll out this new ME was a mistake. SI could have avoided a lot of the flak they are taking in this thread (some of it is way over the top, but some have genuine points that get lost in the hyperbole) if they'd gone with an evolution of the 12.3 engine and given PaulC another year on the new ME.

The FM12 engine has really gone as far as it could, there wasn't really any 'late in the day' decision to role out of match engine, the decision was made months ago rather than weeks. It was always the aim for the updated version to come out with FM13 and although there are issues, we do feel the decision very much was the correct one, even with some of the issues which have been raised.

[Herbert Fandel]

Sorry for banging that same drum again but here's an illustration.

Some random real life match

FM12

FM13

Sure, these are just random examples. But you don't need to play either game for long to see a pattern. I'd still like to know if this is at least acknowledged as a problem and if there is a plan of changing things for the game to reflect reality, shall we say, a bit more closely?

Although I agree with you that there often is too much short passing, especially when attacking, due to other team packing the 18 yard box, and I realise you acknowledge that it is just some random examples, the pictures really are meaningless without a tactical context.

Again, I do feel that the tactical context would further prove your point, rather than counter it, but the pictures are meaningless without it.

When I get home from work tonightI intend to try a game with every instruction against short passing, just to see how that screen looks then.

Edit - did you notice that the real life totenham actually attempted only 3 fewer passes than your FM examples? Is the 'glaring error' in FM actually that the red and green circles in the analysis screen are too eye-catching? Maybe some subtle arrows would be better

[PaulC]

Yes I plan to make weaker sides go direct earlier when phases of passing get them nowhere. There are too many sideways passes at lower levels I agree.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Yes I plan to make weaker sides go direct earlier when phases of passing get them nowhere. There are too many sideways passes at lower levels I agree.

What about the pressing in that final third? Intent is one thing but I doubt Stoke would be capable of half the passing sequences in that area even if they based their whole game around trying that and the opposition deliberately allowed them to. There just has to be a lot more pressing in that area of the pitch.

[edgar555]

But you just said the old one didn't fix it either. I think a lot of people are confusing the reactions 'this ME isn't perfect', with 'the old ME was better', as they are only looking at their results (using old tactics) and deriving their enjoyment from that. As I said, the FM 13 ME isn't perfect, which is giving ammunition to people's doubts, but it is my strongly held opinion that the underlying foundation of most people's FM 13 ME criticism is wrong, but they can't see past the valid bits to realise that.

The old one didn't fix one thing ( a thing that bothers me but probably isn't on the top of their fix list). This new one howeve has introduced a number of other issues. My main issue is that SI decided very late in the process to go with this and I'd say that they may regret that. They may not, but I can't help but think a polished version of 12.3 would have copped them less flak than this.

As far as I recall, AM tracking back will be influenced by a number of his attributes. Any teamwork, workrate or positioning failure, and his tracking will be half-hearted or comically inept at best. Hence, Christiano Ronaldo might regularly stay high and let his FB deal with the threat. In contrast, a workhorse like Lennon will nearly always track back.

But is that implemented in the game correctly? Because I don't see any AM track back, no matter their attributes.

Then you get the same complaints about the old ME. Its not a win win situation I'll give you that. But this goes back to what I've said in the past about the team being too small and not having enough time to really work out the problems in any portion of any edition of the game.

The revamped ME is one thing that got me looking into 2013 this early instead of just waiting for a couple months. I was so sick of seeing the same annoying parts each year that were so obvious but not getting attention. Namely defensive positioning and mistakes that were just dumb. Always knew when a goal was about to be scored because the defenders were suddenly visually playing a lot worse then earlier.

But reading this thread I question if it was released early, the demo just finished down loading and if that is the same ME then I should have a better idea in a while personally. But to be honest I'm not holding my breath, but do have my fingers crossed lol.

But yeah, either way they would have gotten heat, just think team needs more time of just bug fixing, especially with the new ME and new physics.

Of course they'd have got heat either way, thats the internet and the modern 'I want it all and I want it now' customer base for you. As mentioned earlier in my reply I believe the mistake was making the decision late in development. But it's what we've got now so we need to have faith that PaulC will get it right with the help of the 'non-ranting' community.

[Herbert Fandel]

The old one didn't fix one thing ( a thing that bothers me but probably isn't on the top of their fix list). This new one howeve has introduced a number of other issues. My main issue is that SI decided very late in the process to go with this and I'd say that they may regret that. They may not, but I can't help but think a polished version of 12.3 would have copped them less flak than this.

Granted in introduced new faults. But also tidied up countless others, as such I consider it to already constitute progress, before one even bears in mind the room for improvement. Of course others are allowed to feel differently, but I am also allowed to consider such people haven't fully 'opened their mind'.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

There should be an option to players complaining about their terms to tell them to sack their agent for being greedy/stubborn/impatient in negotiations.

An option to shoot agents would be nice.

[wwfan]

But is that implemented in the game correctly? Because I don't see any AM track back, no matter their attributes.

It's not something that's stood out for me. I did notice in the pkm Butters76 uploaded that Douglas Costa hardly ever tracked back, whereas the left winger tended to. Not sure of their attributes, but the different positioning was noticeable.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Edit - did you notice that the real life totenham actually attempted only 3 fewer passes than your FM examples? Is the 'glaring error' in FM actually that the red and green circles in the analysis screen are too eye-catching? Maybe some subtle arrows would be better

Again, totally missing the point by some margin. Look at the patterns instead of counting numbers. Look where the passes are taking place in each screen. Context is good to have but there is a pattern and you just need to check it for yourself to realize this.

[Mensell76]

I enjoy reading the very explanatory informative and tutoring posts by WWfan. Without a doubt he is an expert in the game. I also have a deep respect for PaulC and SI for having this open forum and debates. The way the pro FM2013 camp tends to react though is like this:

“If you are struggling with the FM2013 match engine and tactical side it is mostly because of your own ignorance/incapabilities. If you are not capable to comprehend this gem of a match engine by yourself please revert to an expert like WWfan, he can help you out or otherwise stop playing the game”.

Up to a point I agree with WWfan and many of the other posters who claim you can achieve decent football simulation if you spend some time thinking about what you are doing. And I did indeed read a lot of constructive points from WWfan (and many others who defend this ME) in which it is clear they also see issues with the current ME.

However i.m.o the mainstream consumer should be capable to comprehend a game without needing to get the help of experts. The reason FM is such a worldwide succes is the concept of “anyone can be a manager” and the reality that indeed everyone can be a good FM manager works like a charm.

So if we leave the remarks of the true experts (WWfan, Rashidi and another few) out of play and also strip away the uggliest/ranting comments you will see a mainstream overall picture presented by many of us:

- Defending is not pro active (not a lot of tackling, hardly any real tracing/man marking, pro active interceptions are rarely made)

- Closing Down does not work the way it should (the player instructions hardly have any influence on it)

- Dribbling is almost not existent

- Goalies tend to do a lot of weird things in a match

- (The defending of) Crossing is causing a lot of goals

- Player roles are not functioning very well

- And probably because of all of these mentioned gripes the results of many matches feel very random. It seems to be a general feeling that we do not have a whole lot of influence on the way our teams play.

It would be very degrading to say that all of these mainstream players are for the bigger part not capable enough to see that this in fact is the best ME ever produced. Reading through this thread however it does seem like we are being stigmatised like ignorant incapable FM2013 unworthy consumers

I am sure it was not SI’s intention to produce a game that only a few know how to play. Unfortunately in its current state a good marketing slogan for FM2013 would be:

“Anyone can be a manager, but only a select few will succeed”. Come to think of it, FM2013 has never been more realistic 

[aiston]

So many games where a player not under any pressure, decides to head the ball out of play instead of controlling it, so infuriating.

[Herbert Fandel]

Again, totally missing the point by some margin. Look at the patterns instead of counting numbers. Look where the passes are taking place in each screen. Context is good to have but there is a pattern and you just need to check it for yourself to realize this.

Granted

I am sure it was not SI’s intention to produce a game that only a few know how to play. Unfortunately in its current state a good marketing slogan for FM2013 would be:

“Anyone can be a manager, but only a select few will succeed”. Come to think of it, FM2013 has never been more realistic 

I have been a staunch defender of FM 13, but this is a very good post. If only the forums had a 'like button', and I wouldnt need to waste space typing that I agree

[edgar555]

Granted in introduced new faults. But also tidied up countless others, as such I consider it to already constitute progress, before one even bears in mind the room for improvement. Of course others are allowed to feel differently, but I am also allowed to consider such people haven't fully 'opened their mind'.

Maybe they haven't. After over 10 hours this weekend playing the game I definitely think I've softened towards the ME and see the potential of it, but thats all it is at the moment, potentially great but with several nagging flaws holding it back. The crux of the matter is 'is it worth the money spent on it by each consumer'? At the moment, many think its not. They may be close minded or they may just be really demanding, whatever you or I call them, the fact remains they pay SI's wages. Its the age old FM battle that leaves SI open to criticism that they release a game every autumn to get the Xmas sales and then 'complete' it by spring. Now that is only one opinion, not necessarily one I share every year. I thought FM12 was very playable well before the final patch. I hope that I can say the same for 13. Soon.

[edgar555]

I enjoy reading the very explanatory informative and tutoring posts by WWfan. Without a doubt he is an expert in the game. I also have a deep respect for PaulC and SI for having this open forum and debates. The way the pro FM2013 camp tends to react though is like this:

“If you are struggling with the FM2013 match engine and tactical side it is mostly because of your own ignorance/incapabilities. If you are not capable to comprehend this gem of a match engine by yourself please revert to an expert like WWfan, he can help you out or otherwise stop playing the game”.

Up to a point I agree with WWfan and many of the other posters who claim you can achieve decent football simulation if you spend some time thinking about what you are doing. And I did indeed read a lot of constructive points from WWfan (and many others who defend this ME) in which it is clear they also see issues with the current ME.

However i.m.o the mainstream consumer should be capable to comprehend a game without needing to get the help of experts. The reason FM is such a worldwide succes is the concept of “anyone can be a manager” and the reality that indeed everyone can be a good FM manager works like a charm.

So if we leave the remarks of the true experts (WWfan, Rashidi and another few) out of play and also strip away the uggliest/ranting comments you will see a mainstream overall picture presented by many of us:

- Defending is not pro active (not a lot of tackling, hardly any real tracing/man marking, pro active interceptions are rarely made)

- Closing Down does not work the way it should (the player instructions hardly have any influence on it)

- Dribbling is almost not existent

- Goalies tend to do a lot of weird things in a match

- (The defending of) Crossing is causing a lot of goals

- Player roles are not functioning very well

- And probably because of all of these mentioned gripes the results of many matches feel very random. It seems to be a general feeling that we do not have a whole lot of influence on the way our teams play.

It would be very degrading to say that all of these mainstream players are for the bigger part not capable enough to see that this in fact is the best ME ever produced. Reading through this thread however it does seem like we are being stigmatised like ignorant incapable FM2013 unworthy consumers

I am sure it was not SI’s intention to produce a game that only a few know how to play. Unfortunately in its current state a good marketing slogan for FM2013 would be:

“Anyone can be a manager, but only a select few will succeed”. Come to think of it, FM2013 has never been more realistic 

This my friend is a spot on post and summed it up very nicely.

I like to think I know a lot about football and have a good understanding of tactics, but I certainly felt belittled by some of the posts on here basically calling me an ignoramus due to struggling to make a workable tactic. (not that any were directed at me, but some of the posts definitely came off very high and mighty)/

[PaulC]

What about the pressing in that final third? Intent is one thing but I doubt Stoke would be capable of half the passing sequences in that area even if they based their whole game around trying that and the opposition deliberately allowed them to. There just has to be a lot more pressing in that area of the pitch.

It will be looked into.

[Morlio18]

I enjoy reading the very explanatory informative and tutoring posts by WWfan. Without a doubt he is an expert in the game. I also have a deep respect for PaulC and SI for having this open forum and debates. The way the pro FM2013 camp tends to react though is like this:

“If you are struggling with the FM2013 match engine and tactical side it is mostly because of your own ignorance/incapabilities. If you are not capable to comprehend this gem of a match engine by yourself please revert to an expert like WWfan, he can help you out or otherwise stop playing the game”.

Up to a point I agree with WWfan and many of the other posters who claim you can achieve decent football simulation if you spend some time thinking about what you are doing. And I did indeed read a lot of constructive points from WWfan (and many others who defend this ME) in which it is clear they also see issues with the current ME.

However i.m.o the mainstream consumer should be capable to comprehend a game without needing to get the help of experts. The reason FM is such a worldwide succes is the concept of “anyone can be a manager” and the reality that indeed everyone can be a good FM manager works like a charm.

So if we leave the remarks of the true experts (WWfan, Rashidi and another few) out of play and also strip away the uggliest/ranting comments you will see a mainstream overall picture presented by many of us:

- Defending is not pro active (not a lot of tackling, hardly any real tracing/man marking, pro active interceptions are rarely made)

- Closing Down does not work the way it should (the player instructions hardly have any influence on it)

- Dribbling is almost not existent

- Goalies tend to do a lot of weird things in a match

- (The defending of) Crossing is causing a lot of goals

- Player roles are not functioning very well

- And probably because of all of these mentioned gripes the results of many matches feel very random. It seems to be a general feeling that we do not have a whole lot of influence on the way our teams play.

It would be very degrading to say that all of these mainstream players are for the bigger part not capable enough to see that this in fact is the best ME ever produced. Reading through this thread however it does seem like we are being stigmatised like ignorant incapable FM2013 unworthy consumers

I am sure it was not SI’s intention to produce a game that only a few know how to play. Unfortunately in its current state a good marketing slogan for FM2013 would be:

“Anyone can be a manager, but only a select few will succeed”. Come to think of it, FM2013 has never been more realistic 

Couldnt have said it better myself

[TSH]

I refer you to post #1406. You agreed with luckair, who was making exactly the 'players should robotically follow manager's instructions' argument.

Luckair says "a player should follow an instruction to the best of his ability", which is what happens irl, bar some few exceptions of amazingly talented players who have more freedom.

[Neil Brock]

This my friend is a spot on post and summed it up very nicely.

I like to think I know a lot about football and have a good understanding of tactics, but I certainly felt belittled by some of the posts on here basically calling me an ignoramus due to struggling to make a workable tactic. (not that any were directed at me, but some of the posts definitely came off very high and mighty)/

I don't think anyone has intended to come across like that - I think there was frustration with some people expecting any tactics to work to an extent as long as you have half-decent players, and others unwilling to see why certain tactics which have been so effective in previous FMs may no longer be so. In trying to explain that and being greeted with 'but the ME is rubbish' type responses (by the minority I might add) frustration has come back and some posts may have come across in the way you've interpreted and for that I'm sorry. As said that was never the reason for the post - we have just been wanting to clarify certain aspects about the ME and the tactical system which hadn't been noted by some users.

[hyborian]

What many ppl dont understand is that we dont complain only because of the difficulty etc of the game. I dont care for that. On the contrary, I would really hope the game to be difficult as long as it is in realistic terms. We mostly complain that the match that we view doesnt look like football. The way players react and move. Animation and physics especially look very bad in my opinion. Players do not behave like football players. Defending and goalkeeping mostly. I really appreciate all the effort and the happy times SI has offered to me all these years thats why I am here complaining . Otherwise i wouldnt care

[santacl]

I enjoy reading the very explanatory informative and tutoring posts by WWfan. Without a doubt he is an expert in the game. I also have a deep respect for PaulC and SI for having this open forum and debates. The way the pro FM2013 camp tends to react though is like this:

“If you are struggling with the FM2013 match engine and tactical side it is mostly because of your own ignorance/incapabilities. If you are not capable to comprehend this gem of a match engine by yourself please revert to an expert like WWfan, he can help you out or otherwise stop playing the game”.

Up to a point I agree with WWfan and many of the other posters who claim you can achieve decent football simulation if you spend some time thinking about what you are doing. And I did indeed read a lot of constructive points from WWfan (and many others who defend this ME) in which it is clear they also see issues with the current ME.

However i.m.o the mainstream consumer should be capable to comprehend a game without needing to get the help of experts. The reason FM is such a worldwide succes is the concept of “anyone can be a manager” and the reality that indeed everyone can be a good FM manager works like a charm.

So if we leave the remarks of the true experts (WWfan, Rashidi and another few) out of play and also strip away the uggliest/ranting comments you will see a mainstream overall picture presented by many of us:

- Defending is not pro active (not a lot of tackling, hardly any real tracing/man marking, pro active interceptions are rarely made)

- Closing Down does not work the way it should (the player instructions hardly have any influence on it)

- Dribbling is almost not existent

- Goalies tend to do a lot of weird things in a match

- (The defending of) Crossing is causing a lot of goals

- Player roles are not functioning very well

- And probably because of all of these mentioned gripes the results of many matches feel very random. It seems to be a general feeling that we do not have a whole lot of influence on the way our teams play.

It would be very degrading to say that all of these mainstream players are for the bigger part not capable enough to see that this in fact is the best ME ever produced. Reading through this thread however it does seem like we are being stigmatised like ignorant incapable FM2013 unworthy consumers

I am sure it was not SI’s intention to produce a game that only a few know how to play. Unfortunately in its current state a good marketing slogan for FM2013 would be:

“Anyone can be a manager, but only a select few will succeed”. Come to think of it, FM2013 has never been more realistic 

110 % true + the movement of the players & the boll that looks like icehockey.

With that being said thanks for all the mods and developers that spend hours n hours her listening to our complaints & tributes

What many ppl dont understand is that we dont complain only because of the difficulty etc of the game. I dont care for that. On the contrary, I would really hope the game to be difficult as long as it is in realistic terms. We mostly complain that the match that we view doesnt look like football. The way players react and move. Animation and physics especially look very bad in my opinion. Players do not behave like football players. Defending and goalkeeping mostly. I really appreciate all the effort and the happy times SI has offered to me all these years thats why I am here complaining . Otherwise i wouldnt care

Exaktly!

[avex]

Some, for example, TSH, have strongly agreed with this. I'm equally vehement in my opposition. The more robotically a player obeys his manager's instructions, the worse the ME will be. SI are attempting to simulate human behaviour. Humans do not behave like robots. They make decisions, some good, some bad, and do their best to cope with those decisions. The user manager can give them some parameters within which these decisions can fall, but they cannot determine absolute movement at all times. That would result in a horrid mess of a game.

Well, I bet you've seen a lot of football, and I bet you remember Van Gaal's Ajax, Van Gaal's Barcelona and Guardiola's Barcelona. All three teams have extremely rigid instructions to certain players, that can't seem to be done in this years engine.

For example full backs in Ajax, acting more like CBs to allow one of the CBs to join the midfield and closing with 3 (one CB, two FB). In ME13 engine they would try go get crossing positions despite instructions. Or the wingers in third and fourth season of Guardiola's Barcelona (specially fourth, in his 3-4-3). Where always stick to their side, nearly never trying to get finishing positions. Look a Thiago's position in 4-0 against Santos. He (being quite an anarchic player) spent 90% of the time just doing positional work to make the team wide.

I want that for my players. I want my winger to stay wide just to make the team wide. Even if the ball goes through the center. If I where closing with 3, I want my FBs to stay back forming a line of 3. Wide, but a recognizable line. If some of them decides to roam to attacking positions, then wouldn't work.

What happens in ME13 if you try a defense with 1CB + 2FB is closer to Cruyff's Barcelona, which was really cool, but pretty chaotic sometimes.

Edit: And all that stuff can be done in ME12. You can have players doing positional work, as lots do IRL, without ignoring your instructions. This time it doesn't seem the same.

[Cornfleek]

Not sure where to vent my disappointment, but the ME is a mess. The randomness of it (seeing an amateur club consecutively beat last years nr. 1 and 2 of the top league in cup matches) and obvious bugs make it unplayable for me. I've checked the ME bug forums, all my complaints are well covered in there, so no need to further explain myself. Seems that the pre-order bonus for FM13 was that we can play the beta for FM14. The game is simply not finished.

It normally takes me several months to stop playing FM once I start my first game, this time it took me 3 days to stop playing. I hope SI can sort this one out.

[TSH]

Well, I bet you've seen a lot of football, and I bet you remember Van Gaal's Ajax, Van Gaal's Barcelona and Guardiola's Barcelona. All three teams have extremely rigid instructions to certain players, that can't seem to be done in this years engine.

For example full backs in Ajax, acting more like CBs to allow one of the CBs to join the midfield and closing with 3 (one CB, two FB). In ME13 engine they would try go get crossing positions despite instructions. Or the wingers in third and fourth season of Guardiola's Barcelona (specially fourth, in his 3-4-3). Where always stick to their side, nearly never trying to get finishing positions. Look a Thiago's position in 4-0 against Santos. He (being quite an anarchic player) spent 90% of the time just doing positional work to make the team wide.

I want that for my players. I want my winger to stay wide just to make the team wide. Even if the ball goes through the center. If I where closing with 3, I want my FBs to stay back forming a line of 3. Wide, but a recognizable line. If some of them decides to roam to attacking positions, then wouldn't work.

What happens in ME13 if you try a defense with 1CB + 2FB is closer to Cruyff's Barcelona, which was really cool, but pretty chaotic sometimes.

And as I wrote above, I never said that I agree with robotic players. But there's a huge problem between robotic players and players who try and follow instructions. If the ME and the TM don't adhere by the latter, that's why there are so many illogical decisions and incosistencies with instructions, thus so many complaints.

[Leon_fogo]

Friends , a patch is being produced and already has an expectation out ?

[Kriss]

Friends , a patch is being produced and already has an expectation out ?

Dates are never given for updates for obvious reasons, they arrive as and when they are ready and tested.

[mhaffy]

During my trawl for young talent I came across 17 year old alvara Vadillo of Betis. His value was shown as £400k. I was somewhat amazed to see that his contract had a minimum release claue of £230m. Surely this cannot be right....