*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

[Butters76]

And herein lies the problem. You try to design a logical tactic, but struggle. You then design a tactic which you recognise isn't logically sound, but is somehow winning. You don't think it should win, but as it does, you'll stick with it. You then complain that the football it produces isn't realistic. But you know it won't be realistic in the first place, as you are merely trying to win through any means possible, which includes creating an unrealistic tactic that might well be beating the ME, not the AI.

For what it is worth, I didn't se much wrong with the general play in the Southampton match, bar the weird settling back when the opposition gets the ball under control in the final third. I was suggesting that your system has serious flaws, mostly in the lack of an MC in a Defend role and no FBs getting forward. You might be overcoming these by designing an attacking system that ensures goals. However, this prevents you from designing a holistically logical system, in which players move into logical and realistic spaces when they open up.

Of course, it is totally up to you if you want to listen to me. I am only suggesting that by employing your current method, you'll never fully appreciate the beauty of the ME at its best.

I think you fail to see our point. Sure the tactic isn't perfect or logical. But even with instructions like that real life players (even on LSD) wouldn't do some of the decision making they do in FM 13. Sure a game would never look like the real thing, BUT in this area the ME has taken a major step back, even though it overall has taken a step forward. The ME is clearly still in a beta state, far from ready. I have no doubt it will be fixed andwill be great, but it was prematurely released.

Even if you tell your players to play 1-1-8 IRL they won't completely ignore the ball just next to them. You will lose big, but you will never see some of the stuff players pull off in FM13.

[Morlio18]

I've read a lot of stuff on this thread, and tried to get into games myhself but the bottom line is - the game is not good. The match engine is broken. It's not about tactics, its about the way players react to certain situations. Every couple of games, my keeper (Pepe Reina, not some novice) throws one in or lets a cross in or something stupid. Everything just feels so, so random. When defending counter attacks my defenders just stop momentarily and let the attackers walk through. The amount of times the ball hits the back of players is laughable.

I, like many people on here, have played the game since CM3 but this game is just bad. It feels random. Tactical changes never seem to manifest themselves in the Match Engine like in previous versions. The game is just broken. I'm not using tactics tht worked particularly well in other versions, I'm not using downloaded tactics, the Match Engine is'nt working.

Random is how I'd decribe the match engine. And random ain't good.

Precisely! Random is exactly how I find it, results, finishing, goalkeeping, defending all in particular cannot be influenced over, its just the game deciding randomly whether it will be in your favour. 9/10 it isnt.

[avex]

If you don't share specifics nobody can help you. Like tactical instructions and pkms. Because obviously it isn't universally broken like it was before.

Well in your screenshots looks better than before... but still not enough. 75% of good passes is way too low. Heck, for me going into 75% or less of completed passes in defense is a symptom of bad match. A good one would be in the 80-85/90/90 for defense/mid/attack. (I admit being a bit of a possession and safe passing junkie for my teams).

One question for anyone involved with the ME. Don't know it has been stated before or not. Why did the Sweeper Right/Left disappeared? Where really useful positions if you where trying a 3 defenders formation. They behave really close to Cruyff's full backs in Barcelona or Van Gaal's full backs in Ajax. I really liked how they allowed to have a wide defense line, while keeping them back enough to not loose the line (as happens if you try a Sweeper+2xFB defense), and they how may close their positions while defending counter attacks.

Where very helpful to make real 3-4-3

[DaveGLeeds]

Saw someone posting about finances on an earlier page, where they were in debt with Man Utd after starting with a lot of money for no apparent reason.

I seem to run into this issue a fair bit with lower league teams (currently Wrexham - now 500k in debt).

I'm within wage budget and to my knowledge I only messed up one contract termination (because I accidentally gave it to DoF specifying terminate - my bad) which cost me 50k (Harsh!).

Is there anything 'hidden' I need to be looking out for? My match day expenses for each month are like 15k for example - why is this?

Is there a thread that can offer me some advice? Or an experienced player who knows this area?

Cheers,

D

[Äktsjon Männ]

As for playing the demo.. yeah demos are not made to be truely objective. But i might try it.

The ME in it is the same as in the real thing. If feedback on that is what you're looking for then the best way is to try it out yourself. Many people seem to enjoy it after all, maybe you will as well.

[Emmeth]

You nailed it. In fact this problem is dragging after this game since the new tactical system (the software programing) was introduced. The question should never be, whether you are RIGHT to give that or any other instruction, it should be whether the player is following those instructions to whatever capacity he is able to. If I tell a player with creativity and passing "1" to play through balls all the time, that's what he ought to do, even though out of 20 attempts, 20 will go out of bounds. This is the proper implementation of tactical system.

AFTER THAT it should be discussed whether you are right in giving that or that order, but not prior. Nowadays it seems that if the engine does not show what you order players to do, it means either "you're wrong" or "the match engine knows better".

I've raised an issue that deals exaclty with this in my thread couple years back, and it's exactly the reason I do not play new Football manager, cause the attitude changed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/160744-This-is-weird...-(Side-Back-pushing-forward-when-he-shouldn-t)

When I feel I'm being cheeted by the game, when I see tha team/players are not following my instructions, then what this game is all about? Aren't I suppose to be the manager here and set up the tactics, the team/players should follow? If not, then sorry, but this is not what I signed up for.

The question is not which one looks more natural. This is the wrong question.

The right question is "which screenshots show the behaviour of players who are following my instructions, (even if they are stupid), and which one doesn't". That's the right and should be the only question here.

So lets see:

a) mentality 1 - my player should be as deffensive as he can possibly be, doing everything with a lot of caution and even more, staying very far back

b) no forward runs - player should make no forward runs whatsoever

c) creative freedom 1 - player should follow my instructions at all times

And lets look at 2 screens.

1) FM2006 screen:

2) FM2010 screen:

The question: Which screen show better understanding by my side backs of the instructions that I gave them ? Screen 1, or screen 2 ?

I will go further. Because of that, FM2006 allows me more freedom and if we'll look only at this one single issue, it is the better game. I can easily do in FM2006 what you showed in your screenshots(side backs pushing forward). All I have to do is give them forward runs mixed, that way they will still get forward, but with mentality 1 they will keep in mind that they can't risk a lot, so they will push forward whenever there is very small danger that comes from doing that.

In that regard FM2006(probably other versions as well) beats FM2010 by a mile. It gives me a freedom to do what I want to do and they are doing exactly what I order them to do.

Could you please post also the results of FM13 ? It would be interesting to compare FM13 to previous ones in terms of " instructions following " ratio.

Thank you

[TSH]

You nailed it. In fact this problem is dragging after this game since the new tactical system (the software programing) was introduced. The question should never be, whether you are RIGHT to give that or any other instruction, it should be whether the player is following those instructions to whatever capacity he is able to. If I tell a player with creativity and passing "1" to play through balls all the time, that's what he ought to do, even though out of 20 attempts, 20 will go out of bounds. This is the proper implementation of tactical system.

AFTER THAT it should be discussed whether you are right in giving that or that order, but not prior. Nowadays it seems that if the engine does not show what you order players to do, it means either "you're wrong" or "the match engine knows better".

I've raised an issue that deals exaclty with this in my thread couple years back, and it's exactly the reason I do not play new Football manager, cause the attitude changed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/160744-This-is-weird...-(Side-Back-pushing-forward-when-he-shouldn-t)

Exactly that.

I think you fail to see our point. Sure the tactic isn't perfect or logical. But even with instructions like that real life players (even on LSD) wouldn't do some of the decision making they do in FM 13. Sure a game would never look like the real thing, BUT in this area the ME has taken a major step back, even though it overall has taken a step forward. The ME is clearly still in a beta state, far from ready. I have no doubt it will be fixed andwill be great, but it was prematurely released.

Even if you tell your players to play 1-1-8 IRL they won't completely ignore the ball just next to them. You will lose big, but you will never see some of the stuff players pull off in FM13.

Exactly that as well.

[slipknot67]

Saw someone posting about finances on an earlier page, where they were in debt with Man Utd after starting with a lot of money for no apparent reason.

I seem to run into this issue a fair bit with lower league teams (currently Wrexham - now 500k in debt).

I'm within wage budget and to my knowledge I only messed up one contract termination (because I accidentally gave it to DoF specifying terminate - my bad) which cost me 50k (Harsh!).

Is there anything 'hidden' I need to be looking out for? My match day expenses for each month are like 15k for example - why is this?

Is there a thread that can offer me some advice? Or an experienced player who knows this area?

Cheers,

D

One thing that can be a major drain on finances without the user spotting it easily is scouting costs. Every assignment costs money and if you have lots of scouts on multiple assignments it mounts up pretty quickly.

[hyborian]

Disappointing ME. Everything feels random. The game looks like some ice hockey pinball. Players sliding, keepers blocking with tackling, ball hitting players back all the time. Is it so difficult to build a game from the basis of the previous ME? This is much worse than 12's engine. Results are also extremely random. Everytime a winger crosses in your area, u just pray since your defenders roam without clue around your keeper. Too many faults. I love that game and play it since 97/98. Hope u can make it right as soon as possible. Its the first time i feel so disappointed with the first version of the product. All the additions are nice but what is most important in such a game is the ME. If this is broken then everything else in that game has no meaning! With respect and love

[jdrawmer]

I think some people need to remember that the Match Engine is a visual representation of some numbers being crunched in the background. Yes, it can do a better job of representing them better but it will. If a player looks like he's ignoring the ball it's annoying, but in the background the algorithm isn't making the player ignore the ball, it's just not being represented very well on screen.

[Morlio18]

Disappointing ME. Everything feels random. The game looks like some ice hockey pinball. Players sliding, keepers blocking with tackling, ball hitting players back all the time. Is it so difficult to build a game from the basis of the previous ME? This is much worse than 12's engine. Results are also extremely random. Everytime a winger crosses in your area, u just pray since your defenders roam without clue around your keeper. Too many faults. I love that game and play it since 97/98. Hope u can make it right as soon as possible. Its the first time i feel so disappointed with the first version of the product. All the additions are nice but what is most important in such a game is the ME. If this is broken then everything else in that game has no meaning! With respect and love

Exactly this.

[Govnar1]

Are you sure it's not just coming off the netting? Yeah raise it in the match engine bugs forum with examples please - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/296-Match-Engine-3D-and-Team-Talks

Reported with example.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I think some people need to remember that the Match Engine is a visual representation of some numbers being crunched in the background. Yes, it can do a better job of representing them better but it will. If a player looks like he's ignoring the ball it's annoying, but in the background the algorithm isn't making the player ignore the ball, it's just not being represented very well on screen.

This is a misconception that has been confirmed as such by PaulC and others on numerous occasions. What you see in match view is what's happening behind the scenes. It's not just picking a random animation sequence to represent something completely different happening. If a player is ignoring the ball it's a bug with the underlying ME code, simple as that.

[someone21]

Got to feel for the SI Team. Many simple just love to complain. Too many loses (difficult), complain. Too many wins (easy), complain. They have got to remember football really does not have a pattern and is random model itself. There are going to occurrences in both real life and the game which shocks us, and really that's the fun part. Nothing can be too predictable and I feel in this game version, that has been the biggest improvement. AI has improved and "dynamic" intelligence has started.

[Morlio18]

Got to feel for the SI Team. Many simple just love to complain. Too many loses (difficult), complain. Too many wins (easy), complain. They have got to remember football really does not have a pattern and is random model itself. There are going to occurrences in both real life and the game which shocks us, and really that's the fun part. Nothing can be too predictable and I feel in this game version, that has been the biggest improvement. AI has improved and "dynamic" intelligence has started.

But whats the point of playing a game you have no influence over? I might as well just sit in the stands of my local team and tell everyone Im the manager.

[wwfan]

Ok, I've returned to look at the latest release and reading this forum doesn't help me at all.

Granted I will say I think Milner has a point, after looking through the bug forum there is very little major threads referring to the issues people are complaining about here, so makes me think they are being haters in many cases.

But at the same time milner, wwfan, and the other supporters.. while offering some tactical advise.. don't give any specifics of what they think are the flaws. I've seen the supporters all say there are flaws but only PaulC has stated any of them from the supporter camp. So if you guys are saying that others are just being overly harsh and the game is good but has problems, tell me what the problems YOU see are so I have something to worth with.

As it is you got two sides, one screaming how broken it is and the other saying its not broken just a few minor bugs that you don't specify. Without the supporters giving more feedback then I'm left thinking there is no credibility on either side. Granted I've had many a discussion with the supporters in the past and can trust them to a degree, but with a completely revamped ME I want some quality feedback not just tactics advice that I've seen in the past when I've known there were ME bugs.

So I think both sides could be better in how they are reacting. But I bring this up because I'm honestly trying to decide if I should give SI my money again. I'm wanting to play some more FM but I can't trust the product form past experience especially with a total revamp. Some of the new changes/features sound nice to me but if the ME is more broken then its been before I'm not giving them any money.

So how about some real quality feedback or do I have to be like Fabio and find out without paying.

I've actually posted all of the following, all in different posts:

Ultimately, if this type of tactic is struggling, then it is evidence that the ME has improved structurally. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have some bugs, such as defensive positioning on some free kicks, shooting too often from extreme angles, pressing not being aggressive enough etc. However, these are all secondary to the overall structure working far, far better. Structural improvement was the key focus of the two year ME redevelop, which required the introduction of player collision and ball physics. If you can't see quite how much this has improved the overall play of the ME, then you are missing the wood for the trees. Everything outside of this structural improvement is polishing. The ME might need burnishing in certain areas, but the underlying framework has improved significantly.

I agree that there is a problem here. While your GK can distribute short passes, only the FBs drop back, with the DCs pushing high. Very unrealistic positioning, which might contribute to the keeper knocking it long too often.

Closing down also needs some work, especially on teammates reaction when the closing down is a success. However, I've been having a lot of success with a BWM closing down relatively aggressively, so it is not totally foobarred.

This doesn't mean the ME isn't flawed. Closing down isn't aggressive enough, players don't get their foot in to intercept underhit or badly placed passes (both of which result in the final third passing issue), players try long shots at unrealistic angles or off unrealistic passes or after unrealistic first touches, defenders don't try to stretch to block shots, the keeper doesn't guard his near post well enough (I could go on). However, structurally, it is a massive improvement.

I'm not trying to. As I keep saying, I can see issues in the ME. I'm also only really trying to damn those that cry 'worst ME ever!!!!!' as people who are using illogical tactics. from what I'm seeing, the general structure of play has improved, although there are some key issues preventing the overall experience from being what it could be.

I'm also very aware of the weaknesses in the current ME. I'm just pointing out that it is by no means unplayable, and in many aspects better than ever, once you have developed a coherent tactical approach to matches.

There is actually loads of aggressive pressing and tackling in this game until Southampton lose a man. The issue is that both teams suddenly stop pressing when the opposition gets controlled possession in the final third. Something for the ME team to look at in more detail I think.

I don't think that is non-acceptance of flaws, and I've been very specific as to what I think some of them are. If the same degree of perception bias is being applied to watching games, you can understand my skepticism regarding people ranting about a broken ME.

[mightymanager]

Yes, but constructive complain is good for SI to improve again and again.

Keep on complaining to make the game better and better.

[DaveGLeeds]

One thing that can be a major drain on finances without the user spotting it easily is scouting costs. Every assignment costs money and if you have lots of scouts on multiple assignments it mounts up pretty quickly.

Cheers - I do tend to keep an eye on that. Currently have three scouts restricted to UK costing me 20k a month - I can live with that. I do find it odd though that my match day expenses and non-football costs are adding up to 50k a month? What are they spending the money on? And despite my wage budget being 16k, last month I spent 65k on player wages (without releasing anyone) - how does this add up?

I really wish you could drill down into each area and see where the money is being spent.

[wally13]

Cheers - I do tend to keep an eye on that. Currently have three scouts restricted to UK costing me 20k a month - I can live with that. I do find it odd though that my match day expenses and non-football costs are adding up to 50k a month? What are they spending the money on? And despite my wage budget being 16k, last month I spent 65k on player wages (without releasing anyone) - how does this add up?

I really wish you could drill down into each area and see where the money is being spent.

The wage thing could be down to bonuses as well, i've posted else were that at end of each month when you get your financial round up it be better if there was more info with it, like seeing which players earned there bonuses and so on

[Neil Brock]

Some of the stuff I've seen here regarding players not following instructions - remember the higher you have their expressiveness or creative freedom, the more chance they'll ignore your instructions somewhat and do there own thing. Also some players make bad decisions - they're only (representing) humans. In real football players sometimes don't follow instructions. I'm not trying to make an excuse for how players behave in the match engine, but there are various factors which do affect it.

[avex]

Hey Neil. Is there a reason why L/R Sweepers are gone?

[DaveGLeeds]

The wage thing could be down to bonuses as well, i've posted else were that at end of each month when you get your financial round up it be better if there was more info with it, like seeing which players earned there bonuses and so on

I initially thought that, but wouldn't that go under the 'bonuses' header on the finance sheet? Surely I can't be paying them twice?

I do appreciate that the player wage budget covered the reserves (of who I have about 3 paid players) and my youth team, but still, it seems crazy to arbitrarily add on 50k that I can't account for?

[Martyr1777]

I think you fail to see our point. Sure the tactic isn't perfect or logical. But even with instructions like that real life players (even on LSD) wouldn't do some of the decision making they do in FM 13. Sure a game would never look like the real thing, BUT in this area the ME has taken a major step back, even though it overall has taken a step forward. The ME is clearly still in a beta state, far from ready. I have no doubt it will be fixed andwill be great, but it was prematurely released.

Even if you tell your players to play 1-1-8 IRL they won't completely ignore the ball just next to them. You will lose big, but you will never see some of the stuff players pull off in FM13.

This is something I'd like to hear from a supporter. Is 13 following instructions less then the last couple years?

Its big to me because the decision making has been so bad in the past that I've had to resort to really heavy handed instructions to stop them doing things I didn't like. One of which is the GK booting it down field all the time. I gave up that they'd always do it on goal kicks, but otherwise they distributed fine.

[Anhero]

Gotta agree with the complains about defending. Defenders just don't seem to listen to instructions. My midfield also seems too easy to bypass (like it's not there) although this one might be my tactical error but I doubt so. All in all FM 13 is a very frustrating game to play and I think I'll go back to 12 until they sort the ME out

[Herbert Fandel]

I initially thought that, but wouldn't that go under the 'bonuses' header on the finance sheet? Surely I can't be paying them twice?

I do appreciate that the player wage budget covered the reserves (of who I have about 3 paid players) and my youth team, but still, it seems crazy to arbitrarily add on 50k that I can't account for?

Is the 16k weekly? That would be about 64k monthly? Sorry if that sees like pointing out obvious, but you never know

[baros2011]

Another ridiculous ME flaw is the striker constantly getting a through ball into a promising position in the opposition area and then passing it back to around the halfway line. Happens a couple of times a game.

This game is rubbish.

[PaulC]

Yes, but constructive complain is good for SI to improve again and again.

Keep on complaining to make the game better and better.

We have always taken constructive criticism on board and it does help drive the game forward without a doubt.

However some of the ranting in this thread is completely OTT. There are a fair amount of people within SI who now avoid this forum due to the tone of some of the posts which is a shame as ever since the early days we've been proud to have an open dialogue with our user base.

[DaveGLeeds]

Is the 16k weekly? That would be about 64k monthly? Sorry if that sees like pointing out obvious, but you never know

It is! Of course.

Christ, I can be dense sometimes.

Still unsure why I'm ending up in debt though if that's my allocated budget?

[wally13]

I initially thought that, but wouldn't that go under the 'bonuses' header on the finance sheet? Surely I can't be paying them twice?

I do appreciate that the player wage budget covered the reserves (of who I have about 3 paid players) and my youth team, but still, it seems crazy to arbitrarily add on 50k that I can't account for?

Pain in the bum i know and something that should be made easier in the game for us but what i'd do mate is see if you can work out who earned there bonus each month and see what your total adds up to then as i say i know this is't the best solution but might help.. hopefully my wish of a better more detailed finacial round up will get added at some point

[PaulC]

Another ridiculous ME flaw is the striker constantly getting a through ball into a promising position in the opposition area and then passing it back to around the halfway line. Happens a couple of times a game.

This game is rubbish.

And here is a case in point. Its probably a genuine bug but the claim it happens a "couple of times a game" undermines the post and then there is an insult to the devs for good measure.

Sigh.

[someone21]

But whats the point of playing a game you have no influence over? I might as well just sit in the stands of my local team and tell everyone Im the manager.

Influence? How who you define that? Even in real life, many managers/teams don't really have any influence of any sort yet they don't complain constantly.

[Anhero]

and then there is an insult to the devs for good measure

Where is there an insult to the developers? He just stated his opinion about the game being rubbish which I quite frankly don't disagree with although I wouldn't have put it in such terms. You guys did everything right but the matchday and ME which is THE most important part about a football game

[JEinchy]

I am enjoying the game so far, but there are elements of the matchday experience that are frustrating me to no end currently; most of which have already been mentioned in this thread. My biggest gripe at the moment has to be goalkeepers, though.

I don't know about other goalkeepers, but mine seems to be terrible for no reason. I have Diego Lopez in goal. He's a good keeper with solid attributes in all the right areas and not someone who I would expect to make hundreds of errors, but he does so anyway.

I've played around 15 games and so far he's managed to drop a ball with no player around him for miles, fumble several crosses, kick the ball straight to an opposition player who went on to score an open goal, stand absolutely still after making a save therefore giving the opposition player an easy tap in and stand absolutely still as the ball is shot at goal with no real pace and goes in. I've not fiddled with his settings and he's always motivated during games.

I accept that, of course, even the best and most reliable of keepers will make shocking errors during a season, but this is almost on a game-to-game basis and doesn't seem like a result of certain circumstances; like maybe if he was playing with little morale, or has low stats in certain areas which makes him more prone to errors. It just seems random.

[Neil Brock]

Where is there an insult to the developers? He just stated his opinion about the game being rubbish which I quite frankly don't disagree with although I wouldn't have put it in such terms. You guys did everything right but the matchday and ME which is THE most important part about a football game

The development team is taking the time to directly talk to users, they shouldn't have to deal with so-called 'feedback' proclaiming the game is 'rubbish'. We very much appreciate constructive feedback, but stuff like that is way over the top and completely unnecessary. If the posts continue in this manner then SI members of staff will no longer be responding in these types of threads.

[Martyr1777]

I've actually posted all of the following, all in different posts:

I don't think that is non-acceptance of flaws, and I've been very specific as to what I think some of them are. If the same degree of perception bias is being applied to watching games, you can understand my skepticism regarding people ranting about a broken ME.

Ok fair enough, let me rephrase...

You mentioned the ball physics and collision detection as key structural improvements, which I would agree are big improvements (assuming they are working right since there is conflicting reports there as well). But let me ask you, if its such a big step forward even though your issues often reflect issues from past versions as well, bad defensive positions, poor shooting decisions, then what is being presented that makes it so much more realistic vs 2012.

Just to make the question more clear... Negatives aside, what do you see presented in the ME that shows it preforms better and more realistic now?

I'm guessing there must be a couple stand out points.

[wwfan]

Some of the stuff I've seen here regarding players not following instructions - remember the higher you have their expressiveness or creative freedom, the more chance they'll ignore your instructions somewhat and do there own thing. Also some players make bad decisions - they're only (representing) humans. In real football players sometimes don't follow instructions. I'm not trying to make an excuse for how players behave in the match engine, but there are various factors which do affect it.

In relation to that and in response to luckair's issue, this is what I posted with regards to players not behaving like robots in the 2010 ME:

There was a long discussion about where FBs should push to when the team had the ball and, having watched a lot of games, it seemed like the DM stratum pretty much set their position. Even with FWRs rarely and low CF, the FBs should push up a stratum. If they are going much further than that without PPMs suggesting they will, then I'd agree there is a problem. However (there's always a however), we also looked at players naturally surging in support, which might see the odd extra forward movement if it is a no-brainier option to go there in support.

Add in the increased CF that players have in Fluid and Very Fluid philosophies and you will see different degrees of movement an decision making. I think luckair's statement sums up the key issue many are having. He argues:

You nailed it. In fact this problem is dragging after this game since the new tactical system (the software programing) was introduced. The question should never be, whether you are RIGHT to give that or any other instruction, it should be whether the player is following those instructions to whatever capacity he is able to. If I tell a player with creativity and passing "1" to play through balls all the time, that's what he ought to do, even though out of 20 attempts, 20 will go out of bounds. This is the proper implementation of tactical system.

Some, for example, TSH, have strongly agreed with this. I'm equally vehement in my opposition. The more robotically a player obeys his manager's instructions, the worse the ME will be. SI are attempting to simulate human behaviour. Humans do not behave like robots. They make decisions, some good, some bad, and do their best to cope with those decisions. The user manager can give them some parameters within which these decisions can fall, but they cannot determine absolute movement at all times. That would result in a horrid mess of a game.

I still believe that many user issues come down to tactical styles that are one-dimensional. Nothing I've read or seen in this thread suggests otherwise. These styles are not achieving because of the development of collision detection. Over time, people will work out how to develop tactics that are less one-dimesnional and everything will calm down again.

I have to say, I'm as baffled as PaulC with regards to the ball physics claims. I can agree that rebounds from the goal are flawed, with every shot seeming to hit the post full on and rebounding the back along the line it was shot from. I can see that goalkeepers have bionic arms. However, I don't see the ball failing to slow down on the pitch at all. I'm also not seeing players skate around. I'm more inclined to believe that this is happening than not, though, as it is easy to pick up on graphical glitches. I just don't understand why some are seeing it and others not.

[Welshace]

The issue is that genuine issues and possible bugs are getting bogged down and lost in the thread.

If people have a genuine issue or bug found... post it in the bug reporting forums and it will get looked at, logged and solved if needed.

Merely getting angry and ranting on here will not get your issue solved.

SI are in a very small majority of games developers who wish their fanbase to have a large influence over the games development and the transparency they show should be commended.

[Herbert Fandel]

Seeing players collide is one that undoubtedly is much better. Instead of your fast striker now being able to simply run through, as in physically through defenders, he now has to try and run round them, and is sometimes blocked off. Much better. It isn't perfect yet, as I have seen players collide and then take 10 metre detours in opposite directions, but the potential is there.

[Morlio18]

Influence? How who you define that? Even in real life, many managers/teams don't really have any influence of any sort yet they don't complain constantly.

By influence I mean some sort of logical results. Honestly atm Ive had such random results its crazy. I was on a run of crazy positive and negative results, then I changed my formation won 3 games in a row near the top teams and then I play a team a League below and lose 3-0. Thats improbable, but the amount of times this happens makes it unrealistic. You cant honestly say a managar has no influence over a result otherwise you wouldnt have top managers, everyone would just be the same.

Regardless I like the game, I just think the ME is bad and even clicking instant result brings up illogical results. In real life football has shock results but theyre shocks, meaning they dont happen very often.

[mightymanager]

And here is a case in point. Its probably a genuine bug but the claim it happens a "couple of times a game" undermines the post and then there is an insult to the devs for good measure.

Sigh.

Paul,

Maybe you are taking it too emotively, and I understand.

Try just to note that some fan are frustrated and they don't want to give a specific feedback but just a general feeling ( sometimes roughly said, I accept ) as they just want to be ready to play quickly.

Saying this game is "rubbish" should be taken in another way from you guys, who are the cerator of FM : the fan just told his feel=ing at the moment, he did not insult anybody or its work, just an instant feeling.

This thread is not for bugs, but for general feedbak for you, so take it easy and don't avoid to come here as it's your own house...

[Altair]

Please just put the FM 12.2.2 ME in this game or at least FM 11.3....Simply as that.

We don´t want to play beach ball with players sliding for the field anymore.

[demonen]

Some people may think the closing down isnt effective, and this is where i will disagree. Closing down and tackling arent the same thing. Based on my involvement in FMLs tactic creator, and things may have changed since I have been away, Closing down was the act of players in team to shut down passing lane options.

But it IS ineffective.

There is absolutely no pressing or closing down of players outside your 18 yard box. It's especially noticable when the ball is wide; your midfielders will fall back into the defensive line, and leave the opposing midfielders unmarked. When the ball is passed back to these midfielders, the defending team will press very casually, allowing for very long spells of possession in the final thirds.

It's completely unrealistic behaviour, and it appears to happen regardless of how you have set up the pressing and defensive line.

[Sunderland AFC]

When there is a goal kick given, the ball shoots of to near the halfway line and the keeper has to go and get it.

Seems a bit glitchy

[baros2011]

And here is a case in point. Its probably a genuine bug but the claim it happens a "couple of times a game" undermines the post and then there is an insult to the devs for good measure.

Sigh.

Sorry for posting that - I suppose I mean relative to the FM12 game and how perfect that was. But I shouldnt have posted like that so I'm sorry and didn't mean to cause any offence.

Will keep any feedback constructive from here on in. Sorry again.

[wwfan]

Ok fair enough, let me rephrase...

You mentioned the ball physics and collision detection as key structural improvements, which I would agree are big improvements (assuming they are working right since there is conflicting reports there as well). But let me ask you, if its such a big step forward even though your issues often reflect issues from past versions as well, bad defensive positions, poor shooting decisions, then what is being presented that makes it so much more realistic vs 2012.

Just to make the question more clear... Negatives aside, what do you see presented in the ME that shows it preforms better and more realistic now?

I'm guessing there must be a couple stand out points.

I haven't seen any evidence in my game that defensive positioning has gone backwards. I am using exactly the same defensive set up I've always used, and it is very solid. In my current season, I'm only conceding a goal every other game. Constantly bad defending is a tactical issue, not inherent to the ME.

The shooting from extreme angles is annoying. However, it has been annoying for almost every version of FM. I actually think it is solvable, as I think it is a knock on from players in the box bunching too close together, giving the winger nobody to pass to. Hence, he chooses to go alone.

The core improvements are the collision detection, a lot of the decision making outside the final ball (which is often a bad choice, although that might be realistic), more realistic mistakes, fewer repeating goal scoring patterns, far more goal types, changes of pace, better central support movement on the break, better central support movement from the line leading forward, far, far better goalkeeping (albeit with a couple of remaining issues), better tracking back, more varied decisions relating to player motivation and attributes, better d-line shape, especially when the ball is deep, proper flick on headers to teammates. I could go on and on, but I'm sure you get my drift.

[Anhero]

The development team is taking the time to directly talk to users, they shouldn't have to deal with so-called 'feedback' proclaiming the game is 'rubbish'. We very much appreciate constructive feedback, but stuff like that is way over the top and completely unnecessary. If the posts continue in this manner then SI members of staff will no longer be responding in these types of threads.

Personally I do not think he meant to directly insult the devs. I wouldn't take it that way if I were you guys either and I agree with the many posts between yours and this about the issue.

[Marvolo]

Would adding on the options screen the ability to use the 2012 match engine help for now? What I understand from other developers is sega have a habit of pushing developers to release games before the developers are happy with them. There's a lot of unhappiness on this forum and a match engine overhaul is a huge amount of work which will unsurprisingly have a number of bugs to fix before it is as refined as the old model, but adding the ability to play with the 2012 match engine while keeping the other 2013 upgrades I imagine will have a lot happier customers.

[Herbert Fandel]

far more goal types

That is definitely true. In FM12 I only ever scored from 1 v 1 due to me expoloiting the ME playing through balls to my quick striker. He would get 10 per game, miss about 7, but score enough for me to win, it got boring.

In FM 13 I have only been having mixed success in terms of results, but really enjoying that I can't tell in advance what type of goals I will score or concede, especially score. Feels a lot more like football in that regard. It isn't perfect, I have noticed some strange animations of the new GK diving animation seeing the keeper dive out the way before the ball has left the strikers food, and a few GKs dropping the ball etc, but all in all I think it is really good, and can't wait to see how it looks in future

[slipknot67]

After a couple of shocking results for my team against Rangers and Dundee Utd I read wwfan's posts on here and well they say pictures speak a thousand words, here's my results screen including and after those two games and after implementing wwfan's advice

Thanks wwfan for taking the time to give me a much better understanding if the new ME and making me realise my wide 4-2-3-1 with a lone poacher I tried to port directly from FM12 needed some adjustment to be effective in this version. I changed my poacher to a Treq, set one midfielder to defend (they were on support and attack previously), my fullbacks were on defend, so I switched one to attack (with the winger on his side on support) and the results speak for themselves.

[Lucas78]

Some, for example, TSH, have strongly agreed with this. I'm equally vehement in my opposition. The more robotically a player obeys his manager's instructions, the worse the ME will be. SI are attempting to simulate human behaviour. Humans do not behave like robots. They make decisions, some good, some bad, and do their best to cope with those decisions. The user manager can give them some parameters within which these decisions can fall, but they cannot determine absolute movement at all times. That would result in a horrid mess of a game.

That's a good point, but first I have to say that, while I've played all the FM, I still have to start my '13 campaign

So, it comes down to:

- with this year Match Engine, has Sports Interactive reached a satisfactory middle ground between our expectations regarding the practical application of our tactics *in the context of a videogame*, and the simulation of a "real" footballer behaviour on the pitch? Maybe, this year, the "dissonance" between these two aspects is wider (it will never reach the perfection, of course).

Personally, yeah, I don't want a "robotic" relationship: I *want* and *expect* some anomalies to happen, especially in lower leagues, and especially if the relationship between manager and players is poor (with side effects on morale and concentration).

Then, of course, developers should recognize if these anomalies are ME bugs or just a different, practical application of a revised AI.