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Neil Brock

*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

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I got to say that sigames probably have the best communication with the community than any other dev I have ever encounted.

Its late saturday night and they are trying to help individuals and looking for bugs.

Very honest as well. Most other devs run and hide if bugs get mentioned cos they are worried admitting it might effect sales or even worse that they then have to fix it.

If more devs were like sigames I think gamers would benefit and it wouldnt seem like they are only concerned about getting your money and then once they have it disappearing into the sunset.

Most other devs could learn alot from these.

I agree to a certain degree with this post.

I do think the mods,who I have no problem with,could do with being a little less "nothing wrong with the game" mode.

I have read every post since release and it does grind my gears that some mods keep posting "it is your tactics" type posts.

Even the mods have to agree the ME is broken and should not be defending it.

1 post were the mod had said "either learn from me or get an infraction" was really poor,mod does not = God.

I think the mods were ready for this release and knew there would be an outcry on the forums but I think they should be a little more understanding rather than giving sarcastic remarks or blindly defending the game.

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I agree to a certain degree with this post.

I do think the mods,who I have no problem with,could do with being a little less "nothing wrong with the game" mode.

I have read every post since release and it does grind my gears that some mods keep posting "it is your tactics" type posts.

Even the mods have to agree the ME is broken and should not be defending it.

1 post were the mod had said "either learn from me or get an infraction" was really poor,mod does not = God.

I think the mods were ready for this release and knew there would be an outcry on the forums but I think they should be a little more understanding rather than giving sarcastic remarks or blindly defending the game.

mods arent really related to the development or sales. They were just regular posters like everyone else who probably due to constantly defending everything and making 'nice' posts all the time got made to mod status.

Normally you find they wont admit theres a problem unless a dev does first and then they can agree with him.

I find it hard to believe everyone finds it spot on and not a problem every single year.. despite all the patches saying its not.

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The problem I seem to be having with tactics etc in FM13 is that there is now a massive disconnect between knowing how I want my team to play based on real life football, and actually being able to put the right instructions in to the game engine to get it to happen in game.

It feels like I've no idea how to play this game any more, and after playing through 4 seasons now and pretty much getting no-where, I'm close to giving up.

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The problem I seem to be having with tactics etc in FM13 is that there is now a massive disconnect between knowing how I want my team to play based on real life football, and actually being able to put the right instructions in to the game engine to get it to happen in game.

It feels like I've no idea how to play this game any more, and after playing through 4 seasons now and pretty much getting no-where, I'm close to giving up.

like I just said in another thread Thats because imo.

I'm still not convinced the ME has anything to do with whats actually going on in the game.. and its basically an illusion.

Basically you could play any tactics and a random video is selected with the basic stuff like right formation and scoreline that you can watch while the game is on which is totally unrelated.

Thats the impression I get.

I think its best to ignore its existance as changing tactics to suit whats going on in the ME video will not do what you expect it to do..

The ME wont do what you tell it as from my experiences its totally unrelated. What works commentary and what works ME are not the same.

If you tell your player you want him to do this or that, Hes probably doing it in the code, although the match engine will not reflect this as its whatever it feels like showing.

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mods arent really related to the development or sales. They were just regular posters like everyone else who probably due to constantly defending everything and making 'nice' posts all the time got made to mod status.

Normally you find they wont admit theres a problem unless a dev does first and then they can agree with him.

I find it hard to believe everyone finds it spot on and not a problem every single year.. despite all the patches saying its not.

They are mods of FM and thus are employed by SI,they while being employed by SI should not feel the need to defend the game no matter what,also if a player brings up certain things they should not feel the need to basically say the player is playing the game wrong.

They are mods of the forum and not mods of the game,it is a sandbox game and there is no "it is your tactics,use this tactic to make the game work".

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They are mods of FM and thus are employed by SI,they while being employed by SI should not feel the need to defend the game no matter what,also if a player brings up certain things they should not feel the need to basically say the player is playing the game wrong.

They are mods of the forum and not mods of the game,it is a sandbox game and there is no "it is your tactics,use this tactic to make the game work".

They arent employed, as in they dont get paid. They might get the odd freebie come their way but thats it.

You post the right things for a long enough period of time you could make mod one day. I'm not having ago at mods but thats how it is. Unless this is different to every other forum and they are actually employees.

They will defend the game off their own back as they are long time die hard fans.

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like I just said in another thread Thats because imo.

The ME wont do what you tell it as from my experiences its totally unrelated. What works commentary and what works ME are not the same.

If you tell your player you want him to do this or that, Hes probably doing it although the match engine will not reflect this as its whatever.

This is true and it has always been that way. The 3D highlights doesn't truly reflect the calculations in the background. Well it does, but only to a certain point. You have to use ur imagination to fill in the blanks.

Good example is long clearance, defender is 5 yards away from the ball and walks slowly towards it, attacker is 15 yards away from the ball sprints fast and gets the ball before the defender.

In the calculations behind the scences the attacker was much closer to the ball than the 3D highlight shows you, so as a workaround you see the defender walk slowly towards the ball, while the attacker runs fast.

Has always been like that. What you see isn't truly whats really going on.

Annoying yes, but if anyone think they can do it better, apply for a job at SI towers :D

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I agree to a certain degree with this post.

I do think the mods,who I have no problem with,could do with being a little less "nothing wrong with the game" mode.

I have read every post since release and it does grind my gears that some mods keep posting "it is your tactics" type posts.

Even the mods have to agree the ME is broken and should not be defending it.

1 post were the mod had said "either learn from me or get an infraction" was really poor,mod does not = God.

I think the mods were ready for this release and knew there would be an outcry on the forums but I think they should be a little more understanding rather than giving sarcastic remarks or blindly defending the game.

Let's be clear.

I have now had five people follow my advice and post that it works. I think that is evidence enough that I know what I'm talking about.

When I warned the user to listen to me, I was responding to his insults. I said 'you can learn from me or continue to use juvenile insults and get infracted', not 'learn from me or get infracted.' Completely different things.

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They arent employed, as in they dont get paid. They might get the odd freebie come their way but thats it.

You post the right things for a long enough period of time you could make mod one day. I'm not having ago at mods but thats how it is. Unless this is different to every other forum and they are actually employees.

If they get the "mod" status,then they are indeed employed by SI.

If I do charity work I am still under that charities flag,thus employed by them.

The mods here get a free game and get to beta test(maybe even alpha test),the point is they should not feel the need to defend the game and degrade other posters because other players find the game very much lacking,as with this years edition.

I love CM/FM and have played it for maybe longer than some of the mods but this edition is somewhat of a mess and I am not sure any patching can sort it out.

The new ME was needed but it was nowhere ready for release.

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This is true and it has always been that way. The 3D highlights doesn't truly reflect the calculations in the background. Well it does, but only to a certain point. You have to use ur imagination to fill in the blanks.

Good example is long clearance, defender is 5 yards away from the ball and walks slowly towards it, attacker is 15 yards away from the ball sprints fast and gets the ball before the defender.

In the calculations behind the scences the attacker was much closer to the ball than the 3D highlight shows you, so as a workaround you see the defender walk slowly towards the ball, while the attacker runs fast.

Has always been like that. What you see isn't truly whats really going on.

Annoying yes, but if anyone think they can do it better apply for a job at SI towers :D

Same with goals and anything. You find yourself conceding the exact same goal all the time its not really much help looking at the video. Its just the video you were given.

A good test is to have your player do one thing. Then tell him to do the exact opposite. It will look exactly the same as far as the ME is concerned. I've messed about for ages with it until I realised its best to ignore it as trying to get your sliders to reflect whats happening in the ME is a waste of time.

Its not completely useless as it does give some indication of whats going on but its not the actual game thats going on.

If they get the "mod" status,then they are indeed employed by SI.

If I do charity work I am still under that charities flag,thus employed by them.

The mods here get a free game and get to beta test(maybe even alpha test),the point is they should not feel the need to defend the game and degrade other posters because other players find the game very much lacking,as with this years edition.

I love CM/FM and have played it for maybe longer than some of the mods but this edition is somewhat of a mess and I am not sure any patching can sort it out.

The new ME was needed but it was nowhere ready for release.

Its not just mods, every forum has members that defend the game no matter what. Its part of the way forums. No forums have total agreement. Its all opinion.

Maybe the people who defend the game are genuinely happy and have a higher threshold for whats considered broken, but it doesnt mean those that dont are wrong tho.

What I consider a problem may not be a problem for someone else. You can play the game different ways and have different experiences.

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1-0 up and cruising at half time at home to Swansea,

biff bosh Slap lost 1-3, Pablo Henandez killed me, in shock really

time to roll my sleeves up and analyse, just what I wanted this year a real challenge

I love this game.

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Just me or is the ME an absolute mess now? The amount of ridiculous things I seem to see happening now surpasses anything I can remember seeing in a long time.

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If they get the "mod" status,then they are indeed employed by SI.

If I do charity work I am still under that charities flag,thus employed by them.

The mods here get a free game and get to beta test(maybe even alpha test),the point is they should not feel the need to defend the game and degrade other posters because other players find the game very much lacking,as with this years edition.

I love CM/FM and have played it for maybe longer than some of the mods but this edition is somewhat of a mess and I am not sure any patching can sort it out.

The new ME was needed but it was nowhere ready for release.

daylight, you're entitled to your opinion, that's fair enough, but wwfan isn't defending the game, he's rationally explaining how he feels the match engine has improved and how it is now more receptive to 'real' tactics. As he said, five people have tried following his advice and all have positive results. wwfan is a mod of the tactics forum because he knows more about the game and how it works in a tactical sense than pretty much everyone else - I'd suggest you give his opinions a little more credit before dismissing them because he's 'employed by SI' - which I can state as fact he is not. Check his tax returns :D

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Agh, so annoying to see both my team and AI take incredibly stupid free kicks. Such as:

Trying to pass to a team mate right in front of the free kick taker, which the player that receives the ball just stands there waiting to be tackled, no attempt to pass it away.

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daylight, you're entitled to your opinion, that's fair enough, but wwfan isn't defending the game, he's rationally explaining how he feels the match engine has improved and how it is now more receptive to 'real' tactics. As he said, five people have tried following his advice and all have positive results. wwfan is a mod of the tactics forum because he knows more about the game and how it works in a tactical sense than pretty much everyone else - I'd suggest you give his opinions a little more credit before dismissing them because he's 'employed by SI' - which I can state as fact he is not. Check his tax returns :D

That is fair enough,I have played the game for some 15-16 years and I can still get success from the game,while even with this edition I have success I do not feel the need to tell people it is "their tactics",The ME is a mess,or if we can meet on common ground,it is a mess.

You are right though "wwfan is a mod of the tactics forum because he knows more about the game and how it works in a tactical sense than pretty much everyone else".

Thanks for letting me know this :)

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wwfan - Thanks for the posts and your ideas. However, what your saying is that shouts both pre match and during make a significant difference? Also where you say the tactic wont work if you have all of your attacking players on attack etc (apologies if I am being general in regards to your posts).

With that thinking, how would I go about developing a 4-2-3-1 that played possession football? Inside forwards on support duties or are you saying that the player roles should be changed for each game in repsect of the opposition?

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If you don't like interactions try FMC instead, you may find you prefer it.

Neil - I can only imagine the nightmare you've had since this puppy went into Beta and retail. I respect the fact that you're spending your Saturday night replying to us maniacs rather than getting a few beers down your neck and a takeaway (hopefully you're doing that too!), But....

If I can offer one piece of advice - don't start telling posters that if they don't like a dated and in some places, broken part of FM2013 (and FM2012) to just avoid it. That has the potential to overshadow the great work you guys are doing to respond to and rectify the other valid bugs/improvements that have been reported.

You'll know I'm a big advocate of the interaction/people management side of things (largely due to my professional background as a people manager) from the posts I've logged so far, and you'll know I have some issues with the media stuff (which you've responded to - thanks), but there will be loads of people out there thinking 'Seriously? The same media responses - again??' and to come back with 'Try FMC where you don't have to do this' is tantamount to saying 'Take the earlier train home and you won't see the poor people outside the station'.

Kudos for your work guys, but please keep doing what you're doing in taking stuff on the chin and changing it, rather than suggesting we ignore it, or bypass it in other game modes.

(Now off to play FM2013 a bit more - here for the long haul).

D

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I've got quite a big bug atm. I started as Schalke on the first BETA, updated and carried on with my game and everything is fine. Then comes Friday, update to the full release and finish my season and everything is fine, until my third season where I haven't had any leaugue fixtures arranged just Champions League.

When I click on the league (First Division) it's still showing last season's league table despite it being September 1st.

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changing my set piece defending corner tactics and tim krul is greyed out and set as stay forward and i cant change the instruction. has anyone else had this issue? i also have to say im not enjoying watching the games, but i suppose it is like watching newcastle every week, frustrating!!!

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I''m in the meantime getting some joy out of the game, and it has largely to do with team talks now. Also the tip with the shouts is gold - looked their meaning up and can now quickly change and try a few things.

What really pisses me off still though is the regularity at which the AI converts even the malles chances.

Example: at home agains Juventus - my team 6 CCC and 5 Half chances, 4 goals. Not amazing but ok, don'T expect to score 6-11 goals. Then again, juventus 1 CCC and 3 half chances. You guess it, they scored each one of them. Now playing as bayern munich I'd expect Manual neuer to at least at times save a shot.

If this were a one-off or rare occasion I'd say ok, bad luck. I cannot tell whether this "worse team gets higher conversion ratios to keep games close" thing works in my favor since I usually outplay my opponents, but right now I'm pretty annoyed. 2 Games earlier I actually reloaded because I had generated 8 CCC and over 30 shots (less then 10 from long range and scored 2 while the opponent scored 2 with one SOT and 0 CCC _(4 shots overall, 3 long range). I'd rather accept if you can'T break them down or miss 2-3 CCC and it ends in a draw, and unlucky loss, but the bloody match has to be low-scoring if it happens most of the time, not seeing opponents pull back from 0-2 or worse with their only two SOT (mostly a through ball where striker gets clean through on goal even if I'm deploying contain strategy, so expect my defenders to rather stand on the keepers toes than in the other teams half like it usually happens). This crap really has to stop someday but I'm losing hope since this, for me, is an ongoing issue. And don'T tell me it's tactics.

Now having watched the matches in full the only other things that annoy me is lack of willingness of players to "play the passing lanes" and full backs just backing off wingers (which for some reason my full backs do a lot more often than the AI full backs - might be a tactic problem that is badly visualized in the ME).

Other than that loving the game - player development in particular seems to work a lot better for me than in previous years.

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Crap, I got the pure vital call crash midmatch too now.

Is there a crashlog I can send to SI to help them find the problem for a future patch/hotfix

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Have not seen this listed anywhere but it seems that when I get my DOF to try to sign any of my transfer targets, although he has been successful, he has paid over the odds to what my chief scout had recommended and yet I have managed to sign players within the wage bracket range that my chief scout advised.

Just wondering if this is a bug or perhaps if I need a better DOF and if so, what stats should I be looking at for him to negotiate the correct wages? (He has Man management 14)

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Why are there so many major bugs on Football Manager 2013 ?

I am very interested to know why and would really appreciate it if someone from the SI team could respond to my question.

Yours Sincerely

Tom

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Thirded. Since the game was released I've tried multiple saves to try and formulate a tactical framework in the new ME but nothing was working - my players were simply passing laterally around the opponent's 18yd box with little to no penetration. Inevitably, someone would lose the ball and put my defence under pressure. Reading all the feedback on the forums, I was convinced it was an ME issue as the same tactics had worked wonderfully in FM12.

After reading wwfan's advice I took another look and realised that in every single one of my tactics there was very little roaming. In FM12 having little team movement between the lines didn't matter, because inevitably top-class players would individually unlock a defence. The new ME really requires you, as a manager, to think hard about how you are going to create space for your best players and how they can exploit it. This, in my opinion, is a huge step forward in representing football as the team sport it really is. The moments of individual brilliance are still there, but when they come as a result of great team play they are that much sweeter.

For anyone moaning about the ME - try get out of the tactical paradigms of FM12 and really think like a coach. When you get it right, it's incredibly rewarding.

All credit to SI for creating the best FM yet. Well done guys.

Sums up how I'm perceiving things. My first ever post on these forums was a huge complaint about how I felt the ME was broken and several steps backwards from the previous one. I decided to experiment to see if the fault lay within me or the game. After a lot of frustrated experiments, I began to understand the logic of that ME. The thread rapidly became an explanation of how to play FM within the new ME logic. Because the forums were absolutely crammed with people complaining the ME was broken, Paul Collyer pinned the thread to GD to help people work out how to play. This resulted in a lot of people contributing ideas and feedback.

The result of all of this was the Tactical Theorems and Frameworks series, which, over the years, evolved into the theoretical framework underpinning the TC. The forum contribution to that document was all collated and integrated into the AI and ME, making both far more robust than the one I had originally complained about. If you followed or follow the logic of those discussions, then you won't have had a problem adjusting to any FM ME since.

There is a contrasting way of playing, which is to beat the ME. The most famous beat the ME tactic was Diablo, followed closely by Kimz. This type of tactic only ever works for one version of FM, because the problems it exposes in the ME are fixed. In FM12, the common denominator for these types of tactics were keeping all the defenders on Defend duties, having a central midfield on maximum TBs, and either two wide AMs and two FCs or three FCs. These tactics exposed the lack of player collision detection and took advantage of the poor wide AM tracking. Add in the corner bug and voila, you win. They beat the ME, not the AI, because they were working in a manner the AI couldn't access. No football logic, pure gaming logic. In reality, very few of these tactics would work. With no movement between the lines, it would be very easily for a real life team to mark the danger players out of the game.

A further tendency for people employing such tactics was to use extremely wide mentality splits (e.g. 1 for DCs, 20 for FCs). This tended not to matter in FM12 because of the collision detection exploit and the failure of AMs to track back. The result was that the user would have 6-7 players packing their final third to defend, then banging the ball forward and waiting for a collision detection failure to score. However, in the ME logic, the 1-20 mentality split translates as the user having told the defence "we are shutting up shop today" and the attack "we are going for the jugular today". No strategic coherence.

In the current ME, I'd expect to see such mentality splits massively punished. A team with such wide mentality splits will have gaps in it everywhere, which AI teams will run wild in. A defender with a mentality of 1 will track back and track back, only making a tackle as a last resort. This is fine if he is being covered by a similarly risk averse midfield. If, however, his midfield are stepping up looking to win the ball high, he'll be exposed time and time again. With low mentality, he won't tackle until he has to. Users will see a defence retreating when they should be tackling, thinking it is a horrible ME. In fact, the team is just obeying their instructions and getting taken apart by a team with a coherent strategy. Minimise the CF and it will be even worse.

This is true and it has always been that way. The 3D highlights doesn't truly reflect the calculations in the background. Well it does, but only to a certain point. You have to use ur imagination to fill in the blanks.

Good example is long clearance, defender is 5 yards away from the ball and walks slowly towards it, attacker is 15 yards away from the ball sprints fast and gets the ball before the defender.

In the calculations behind the scences the attacker was much closer to the ball than the 3D highlight shows you, so as a workaround you see the defender walk slowly towards the ball, while the attacker runs fast.

Has always been like that. What you see isn't truly whats really going on.

I realise you are trying to be helpful, but that's not how it works. What you see is what is happening. In your example, there are two scenarios. The defender could be like a rabbit in the headlights because of incoherent tactical instructions, resulting in him not being able to make up his mind what to do, or it could be a bug. There's a slight chance he's failed to try (if he's complacent, for example), but that won't usually be the case.

wwfan - Thanks for the posts and your ideas. However, what your saying is that shouts both pre match and during make a significant difference? Also where you say the tactic wont work if you have all of your attacking players on attack etc (apologies if I am being general in regards to your posts).

With that thinking, how would I go about developing a 4-2-3-1 that played possession football? Inside forwards on support duties or are you saying that the player roles should be changed for each game in repsect of the opposition?

I'll give you a rough overview of what I do. I'm employing a very basic 4-4-2 at BSP level. My DL has good attacking attributes, so I use him as a WB/A, which ensures he moves between defence and attack. To cover for his aggressive movement, my DCL is my cover DC, my ML is on a support duty, my MCL is a BWM and my FCL is a DLF. My MCR is an AP with great vision and passing for the level. So, on his side of the pitch the FC is a poacher and the MR a winger/attack, with the DCR being a stopper to encourage him to aggressively cover behind the AP and the DR a FB/Automatic. This set up results in the AP having players available to receive passes in multiple positions when he's on the ball, logically covers behind him and attacks differently down each flank. It asks the opposition a series of fundamentally different questions.

For my pre-game shouts, I take note of my team comparison with the other teams in the league. My defence is very fast with good positioning, but not too tall or strong. Consequently, I want a higher line than average, so use the 'Push Up' shout. My midfield are technically excellent with good stamina. I use the 'press more' adjustment to make use of my stamina advantage and the 'pass into space' and 'retain possession' shouts to make use of my technical advantage. My team is very short, so crossing is a bit pointless. I use 'Play Narrower' to try and generate more TB opportunities for the AP, especially through the MR and DL pushing into the final third.

As it is a low level league, I tend to switch between Defend, Standard and Attacking strategies to take advantage of relative team level differences. At a higher level, I'd focus more on developing a very specific style and sticking to it. I then sometimes adjust to pitch and weather conditions between Dec and Jan by switching to "Get Ball Forward' if its wet, 'Exploit Flanks / Clear Ball to Flanks' if the pitch is chewed up and 'Pass to Feet / Exploit the Middle' if it is icy.

And that's about it.

daylight, you're entitled to your opinion, that's fair enough, but wwfan isn't defending the game, he's rationally explaining how he feels the match engine has improved and how it is now more receptive to 'real' tactics. As he said, five people have tried following his advice and all have positive results. wwfan is a mod of the tactics forum because he knows more about the game and how it works in a tactical sense than pretty much everyone else - I'd suggest you give his opinions a little more credit before dismissing them because he's 'employed by SI' - which I can state as fact he is not.

Than 'pretty much'!!!!!! :p

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Same with goals and anything. You find yourself conceding the exact same goal all the time its not really much help looking at the video. Its just the video you were given.

A good test is to have your player do one thing. Then tell him to do the exact opposite. It will look exactly the same as far as the ME is concerned. I've messed about for ages with it until I realised its best to ignore it as trying to get your sliders to reflect whats happening in the ME is a waste of time.

Its not completely useless as it does give some indication of whats going on but its not the actual game thats going on.

As someone who usually sees full matches, and has been able to make the representation similar to real life football, I completely disagree. My team in the match engine, at least until FM12, does what I tell it to do. Once you learn to translate the ideas into the sliders it's perfectly possible to make it play at your wish. The hard part is that is not so easy to translate your football ideas into something it correctly understands.

This FM13 is seriously flawed, but if they fix some thing (pressing, tackling, random awful first touches and failed easy passing, some insane player momentum and goalkeepers always making long passes) it could be good again.

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Find it strange that playing as Huddersfield, I'm about to play my 2nd round Capital One Cup game against Ipswich, yet it says in the press conference I've defied the odds to get that far. Why? I'm a Championship club, who beat a L2 club in round 1. How exactly is reaching round 2 defying the odds? Just as daft as having an answer in the press conference (which I didn't choose) saying basically every team that reaches this stage has a chance of winning. Well, yes, as every team that's in the competition has a chance of winning it. However it's only the sort of thing you'd say if you got to maybe the quarter finals.

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getting frustrated with the ammount of fouls when i'm using Hassle Opponants

and also far too many bookings for unsportsmanlike conduct, and players on yellows still continue to do these things.

and bad fouls etc, when a player just stands thare, and the other guy is just stood there with him, suddenly a foul.

also far too much randomness, play hassle opponants one week, they are up close, next game they are leaving masses of room.

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Here's a quick ME test people can do. I've played 5 competitive games and in 4 of them the teams combined for more goals than "chances". How often is this true for you? In real life it should be extremely low, no? Maybe the odd game here or there with efficient finishing and a few goals from non-"chances".

I find that there are way to many goals scored - mostly products of bad defending. Center backs not tracking runs properly.

I like the offense in the ME, the fact that goals are scored in different manners and it seems more unpredictable, like a real game, which I like. However the defense seems like it needs fixing. In 5 games in the Bundesliga I set a new record high scoring game 5-3, and then beat it two weeks later 3-6.

The match engine is interesting because it has a new dynamic of unpredictability - which is nice. But the defense needs work.

The interface though I find completely convoluted and unnecessarily complex. Downright awful I'm sorry to say. Information too spread out, takes too many clicks to find things that should all be on one page, and the lack of a game overview screen is silly.

Spent 20 hours on FM13 and I am going back to FM12 to start a new long term save. I see potential in the ME but it is a long way off and it needs to be above and beyond great to make me want to put up with that messy interface.

I'll check back after a few patches. Too bad.

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The problem I seem to be having with tactics etc in FM13 is that there is now a massive disconnect between knowing how I want my team to play based on real life football, and actually being able to put the right instructions in to the game engine to get it to happen in game.

It feels like I've no idea how to play this game any more, and after playing through 4 seasons now and pretty much getting no-where, I'm close to giving up.

We had an interesting thread on the tactics and training forums. Someone popped in and asked why his team was playing so laterally and then we realized that he was using the Classic Tactic Mode to make a tactic. Just looking at his tactic I realized he didnt understand enough of the match engine to make custom tacitics.

I have no idea whether you are using the Classic Tactics creator or the Tactical Creator. In both modes there is a common factor. Any manager who wanted the best out of his team would need to tweak his tactics in a game. They would either have to use the Opposition Instructions to tightly mark a player or they would adjust the sliders to change the game. Even in 2009 I was so appalled with the default tactics that I had to create a whole set of new defaults, I dont think I was the only one. wwwfan also created a few. What we did tell everyone was that they would still need to understand when to push up their Dline or increase width...etc.

If i want the game to play a quick passing game, and i know my players need to get the ball up. I will set up for direct passing and a quick tempo game, but i will also reduce the number of people who use through balls to a minimum so that the play gets channelled through key players. If Utd find that they need to get past a static park the bus side they inevitably stroke the ball and go wide and switch to quick counters when they are defending a corner. So my tactics will be adapted to do that by assigning my best passers to stay back including my pacey striker. If Liverpool realize they dont have a really good finisher, they know that their best odds is to play a short passing game and keep the ball in the other half as much as possible. but since this could result in a huge cul-de-sac if players are static, they should be set up with an entire forward line set up roam. The only people who wont roam are my pivotal anchors, and these would be the 2 MCs. Since patient buildup needs space to exploit, through balls will need to be played but some players will need to be able to cut inside and make a beeline for goal. To get this working well, I need to make sure that the right players are chosen for that role. No point hoping that a player with decisions of 10 and OTB of 10 with acceleration of 8 will do that job.

Now along with that if I were to use the tactical creator and make a standard tactic, then its imperative I understand what every single shout does. Some shouts will not have the desired effect cos they cancel each other out. Some shouts if not used properly could end up seeing me so high up the Defensive line that I would be ripped apart. Try Hassle Opponents, Push Higher and see what I mean.

Prior to 2008 we had supertactics, easy to create and easy for people to use. As of 2012 we will have super systems. Now these will be different, understanding how to use the tactical creator and the shouts. Or if you are like me modifying the creators setup to have your own mentality/passing setup should see managers create systems of play which they will be able to take from team to team. As far as I am aware there are certain limitations to the match engine, but these are not by any means, game ending. I want to see it improve, I want to see different styles of play, the continental game, the intensive english game, the hopelessly banal continental asian game...yeah these are what I would like to see improved. IMHO if the AI can kick your ass, you can kick its ass. You just need to learn how to kick a bit better. :-)

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Friends, the days pass processing (the game) is much slower than in FM 2012: (

Will it have some patch to improve it?

I made comparisons with FM 2012 on my old pc and it is even faster than here ... the rest of the game is very normal, smooth, clear that there must be bugs in my view however small, that is what is annoying me more ... putting it to the same database that I put on fm 2012, and last year I put up extra alloys, logos, kits, faces, not counting two updates oa both q and an editor I created and was normal! My computer indicates 5 stars in game speed ... I am very interessadoem know why the game is slow!

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I am among the many having serious issues with the new ME. Perhaps I just need to read a tutorial or something but results seem incredibly random. Minnows seem to be able to shred defenses on the counter far too easily. I'm using Man United and just played Reading. I had 58% possession, 10 shots on target, and 3 clear cut chances. The result? A 4-0 loss. Reading scored 4 times despite only having 1 "clear cut chance", and all 4 of those goals were scored by a player with an 11/20 finishing rating.

I'd call this an aberration but I've found matches like this are commonplace in the new ME. It truly hurts the sense of realism (which is absolutely crucial for a game like this) to see so many cases of world-class players not marking, or seemingly behaving as if they have no idea where the ball is.

I'm really at a loss here. I've only been playing FM for a few years but this is by far the least enjoyable time I've had with it.

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I am among the many having serious issues with the new ME. Perhaps I just need to read a tutorial or something but results seem incredibly random. Minnows seem to be able to shred defenses on the counter far too easily. I'm using Man United and just played Reading. I had 58% possession, 10 shots on target, and 3 clear cut chances. The result? A 4-0 loss. Reading scored 4 times despite only having 1 "clear cut chance", and all 4 of those goals were scored by a player with an 11/20 finishing rating.

I'd call this an aberration but I've found matches like this are commonplace in the new ME. It truly hurts the sense of realism (which is absolutely crucial for a game like this) to see so many cases of world-class players not marking, or seemingly behaving as if they have no idea where the ball is.

I'm really at a loss here. I've only been playing FM for a few years but this is by far the least enjoyable time I've had with it.

Could you explain your tactical approach? TC or Classic? Formation? Roles & duties? Strategy? Etc, etc?

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I'm playing the full game, not classic. I've been playing both a 3-2-3-2 (3 CBs and 2 CMs) and a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers. In the 3-2-3-2 case, I generally have RVP set to trequartista, Rooney as deep-lying forward, Kagawa as attacking midfield, some combination of Nani/Young/Valencia as wingers, and then Fletcher as a ball-winning midfielder and Carrick as a deep lying playmaker. I generally play the "control" strategy, but will switch to standard or attacking depending on opponent and context.

At first I assumed my 3-defender formation was the problem, but that formation has given me a couple of my best results of the season and the 4-4-2 doesn't fare any better in general. I'm sure I could get more clean sheets if I switched to an ultra defensive minded tactic, but as manager of United I'm not supposed to do that, and I don't really have the squad for it anyway. My problem really lies in the fact that I'm soundly beating opponents in possession and chances created. If I'm doing that, maybe I should lose 1 or 2 games unexpectedly but mostly the results should fall into place. What I'm seeing is the opposite. It seems like there is a much smaller correlation this year between dominating the flow of play and actually scoring goals and winning matches.

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I spent half the day to create my dream team to start my game and found that all new players and staff cannot load!

I have been playing the game since CM3 and this is arguably the most serious/ridiculous bug I have ever encountered since it makes the game totally non-playable to me.

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I've spent quite a lot of time playing FM13 since the start of the beta - almost exclusively the full version - I thought I might like FMC but as yet I haven't been able to get into it; and here's my opinion so far.

Overall I like it more than FM12. Obviously FM isn't about the graphics and I don't expect 'cutting edge' graphics but the matches look a good deal better than they did. I find it quicker, both in the sense processing time is less and that the gui seems better organised and I get what I want done more quickly. (As an aside I find it odd that some people find FM12 much quicker than 13 while others find the exact opposite but I suppose that's something which can happen with the PC format because there's so much variety in the set ups people are running. Luckily for me it's working the right way round for me and the new one is quicker.)

I'm not sure I've really got to grips with the new training system. Once you've got your team familiar with your formations what do you do next? Cut match training right down to focus on general? What advantage would accrue to spending a week focusing on 'attacking' when the effects don't stack? Wouldn't it be better always to focus on 'team cohesion' as that does stack?

Overall I suspect that it is closer to reality than the old system of individually-tailored schedules and which you prefer depends on whether you're the type of person who plays to beat the game or your priority is having as realistic a simulation as possible. Overall I think it's a step in the right direction - more realistic than fiddling with individual sliders - but I'd like a little more personalisation. For example you have two centre backs, one of whom is lacking strength and another stamina. I'd like to be able to put them both on a centre back programme but also spend some time trying to build up their weak points - like in real life giving one an extra gym session and the other aerobic work - while accepting that their extra work means they spend less time on general centre back training than a more rounded player who doesn't have a specific weakness to correct.

The big problems I initially noticed with matches have been improved: too many shots from impossibly acute angles, goalkeepers making too many absurd blunders (though anyone who watches football has to recognise they do happen) and too many goals scored from far post crosses. I think on crosses the right balance is finally being struck: it used to be far too hard to score from a cross in open play.

There are now two things I'd like to see addressed in the match engine. Full backs who have been closing down a player in a wide position have a tendency to suddenly switch off and trot back towards the goal and allow the attacker to cross unchallenged. And there are too many goals when both centre backs stand in a line (even if one is set to cover and the other stopper) and not move when a ball is played between them allowing the striker an unchallenged shot on goal.

The DoF is a great improvement and mine seems to do very well at finding clubs to take my youngsters on loan. I experimented with allowing the DoF to buy first team players. The first buy was a top class player at a bargain price and I thought, "this is great." But after that he became obsessed with over-priced full backs and I spent my time cancelling his bids. Still, I didn't really want the DoF buying my players anyway. On over-priced full backs I think the transfer market is slightly off at the moment top class attackers a little under-priced compared to full backs.

I also tried holidaying for a year to see what the AI would do with the squad at the club I support. It did something so daft I re-ran the year to see if it happened again and it did. Now I'm not going to take one odd decision as "OMG - the game is broken" but this decision does highlight that AI squad building is still lacking. The AI sold Kyle Walker for £15m and immediately spent £18.5m to replace him with Glen Johnson. Most fair-minded observers would probably rate those two players as pretty close in ability. Looking at their attributes Johnson is probably rated a shade better on CA now. But he's about seven years older than Walker who is still improving. I can't see many humans selling an improving young player and paying more to replace him with someone much older who is only very slightly better now and will probably be less good very soon.

Press conferences still quickly become very boring: if we're going to have them please can we have considerably more questions to stave off boredom?

And I know this is a recognised bug and being worked on but the coaches assignments re-setting whenever you use player comparison is very irritating.

Overall I'm very satisfied. When I first started I did find results a bit random - memorably I won an away 'Euro Cup' match 5-1 then lost at home 3-0 with virtually the same team and tactics, but after having a modest tantrum I decided to treat it as a learning experience and by changing what I'm doing I'm getting better and more consistent results. Personally I'd find it really boring if I could just repeat exactly what I did last year and achieve great results.

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They say new ME is full of new secrets and new potential.

Well known to the Guru and developers.

After the expert explanations of the Guru, five people have it all figured out and they are happy.

Unfortunately I have not understood anything, even if I play since 2001.

Too bad that majority of common players can not understand the radical beauty of the ME, because obviously they are tactically very poor.

The real news is then that FM 2013 is designed to be played by the moderators and developers, who are happy about ME.

All the other people who would like to just have fun and paid money for this,

must begin to study hard and learn the new ME.

Only by doing so perhaps they will learn to play it properly in the future.

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Hi there

First off Im not sure if there is some way to improve this, however I feel like there is a lack of news/information about transfer rumours and bids/deals. I know there is a rumours page for each league, and you can view completed transfers, but it can be tedious to navigate to all the different screens.

In previous versions you could set up screen flow to somewhat remedy this, however I can not seem to add transfer rumours to my screen flow selection this year?

Anyway, having seen the new transfer deadline day feature I have the suggestion to add the feature where the transfer info bar at the top of the screen with transfer news is permanently there when the transfer window is open (ie january and june 9th to sep 1st for England). This makes it much more easy to follow whats going on during the entire transfer window, and makes you feel more involved and related to the game world.

As for the transfer deadline day, maybe you could expand on what goes on that specific day, or simply keep it with the added timer, and questions from the media.

Anyway, hope you will listen to this suggestion .

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They say new ME is full of new secrets and new potential.

Well known to the Guru and developers.

After the expert explanations of the Guru, five people have it all figured out and they are happy.

Unfortunately I have not understood anything, even if I play since 2001.

Too bad that majority of common players can not understand the radical beauty of the ME, because obviously they are tactically very poor.

The real news is then that FM 2013 is designed to be played by the moderators and developers, who are happy about ME.

All the other people who would like to just have fun and paid money for this,

must begin to study hard and learn the new ME.

Only by doing so perhaps they will learn to play it properly in the future.

Actually I just played using the default 442 tactic for my first season and did really well, there are no secrets in fact it's more logical than ever before imo.

I changed players where there were obvious weaknesses rather than tactics theorising that a default tactic would at least be balanced.

It'll probably go all pear shaped once I start meddling :D

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At this point I'd honestly pay £10-£15 for an official data update to FM12 they've screwed the new game up so badly. I believe over time they'll probably fix the match engine with patches but the GUI is unberable for me, it's just a mess.

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I'm struggling for any sort of form away from home. At home I'm extremely dominant, easily brushing aside the likes of Manchester City with possession, chances and goals. Away from home though, I get played off the park by newly promoted teams. I understand this phenomenon exists in real life as well, but I'm wondering if it isn't vastly exaggerated in the game. My tactic seems to lose all shape away from home, while my players lose all their individual attributes. They get outpaced, lose nearly all challenges, put all their shots miles off target, etc. Is anyone else experiencing this? It is extremely frustrating. It feels like my instructions are simply irrelevant away from home.

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I'm struggling for any sort of form away from home. At home I'm extremely dominant, easily brushing aside the likes of Manchester City with possession, chances and goals. Away from home though, I get played off the park by newly promoted teams. I understand this phenomenon exists in real life as well, but I'm wondering if it isn't vastly exaggerated in the game. My tactic seems to lose all shape away from home, while my players lose all their individual attributes. They get outpaced, lose nearly all challenges, put all their shots miles off target, etc. Is anyone else experiencing this? It is extremely frustrating. It feels like my instructions are simply irrelevant away from home.

You don't play a different tactic away than at home? Even in the hallowed 2012, that was a no-no.

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At this point I'd honestly pay £10-£15 for an official data update to FM12 they've screwed the new game up so badly. I believe over time they'll probably fix the match engine with patches but the GUI is unberable for me, it's just a mess.

feedback thread...

care to elaborate on what is a mess for you?

and this really does go for 95% of the posts in here... please explain what the issues are, so they might be able to improve it? rahhhh

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You don't play a different tactic away than at home? Even in the hallowed 2012, that was a no-no.

Yes I do, nowhere did my post imply I didn't. I don't have a set 'Home' and 'Away' tactic, but where necessary I change personnel, player roles, team instructions or formation. I'm a long time FM player, I've been through this on dozens of saves across a multitude of editions. But I'm experiencing a much more exaggerated difference than on other editions.

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I am quite liking the new game. Yes the ME needs work and SI have admitted that and they are working on ME as we speak. It's the shouts during games that is getting me. I just can't seem to be good at what to shout. It seems every time i use a shout, team doesn't play as well. I might try to trawl any shout threads for advice.

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Yes I do, nowhere did my post imply I didn't. I don't have a set 'Home' and 'Away' tactic, but where necessary I change personnel, player roles, team instructions or formation. I'm a long time FM player, I've been through this on dozens of saves across a multitude of editions. But I'm experiencing a much more exaggerated difference than on other editions.

You said "My tactic seems to lose all shape away from home, while my players lose all their individual attributes."

So um, well yeah. Anyway good luck fella.

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You said "My tactic seems to lose all shape away from home, while my players lose all their individual attributes."

So um, well yeah. Anyway good luck fella.

As in 'the tactic I'm currently using in that game'. But thanks for the constructive reply. I'll be thinking twice before asking for advice on here.

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At this point I'd honestly pay £10-£15 for an official data update to FM12 they've screwed the new game up so badly. I believe over time they'll probably fix the match engine with patches but the GUI is unberable for me, it's just a mess.

Me too!

Actually i'm rolling back to FM 2012 to have a most realistic and fun experience, until ......

Until...when...???

Who knows?

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As in 'the tactic I'm currently using in that game'. But thanks for the constructive reply. I'll be thinking twice before asking for advice on here.

dont let a few idiots spoil it ... there are people who will try and help when they can i assure you :)

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