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Ant Farley

*Football Manager 13 Pre-Order Beta Official Feedback Thread* - Keep it all in here please

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Team-talk question:

What is the point in them this year? You rarely get a good reaction from your players and in fact they seem to do much more harm than good, its a lot easier to simply not bother with them. Just 2 mins ago i got a great 3-3 draw with Wigan against Man City, i tell my players after in an assertive manner that 'Everybody thought we would get beaten today, well done for proving them wrong. Great result.' Now you would expect the players to be delighted that their manager was congratulating them on this performance, but nope. Instead they 'switch off' and 'lose focus', complete waste of ****ing time and this isn't a moan just for this one match, it happens EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Works for me, I have used that response several times with my Saints team after decent draws with higher level teams and have got good responses and morale increase across the board. What 'paying experience' did you start on? If you are sunday league footballer it might be that your players just don't really respect you that much at the moment.

As for the game as a whole I have two main issues:-

- Game crashes pretty much every week and I have lost some good results (just beat Norwich 6-3 away, beat Man City 1-0 at home) I have about 15 'crash dumps' I need to upload.

- Match Engine needs some work:-

1. First off the whole crossing balls into the box thing is the main issue, Defenders and the GK do not seem to react to the ball in the box, I have conceded goals where the AI takes a free kick from the half way line, it's been floated in and my GK just stands there as the striker heads it in, even though my GK only has to move a tiny bit to intercept the ball before the striker gets there. Same with any ball across, I have had several crosses that have gone along the ground across my 6 yard box and none of my back 4 or GK have moved a muscle to try and clear or intercept it, even if they are already standing in the path of the ball they still don;t clear it. Virtually all wide play results in goals or a clear cut chance. Wingers cross to wingers and get goals all the time.

2. Woodwork. I'm hitting it on average 4 times a game, pretty much every other game I get the post match press conference question about it. It's kind of silly especially when your players are missing sitters and hitting the post all the time.

3. Running/Dribbling, fast players just seem to run in a straight line and that is enough to beat my defender who will just run next to the attacking player. This even happens with fairly slow players (say pace 13) they still easily outpace my full backs (one of whom is clyne who has 16 pace and acceleration) and even if the defender has the head start.

4. Wide players are acting oddly, they shoot from absurd angles and will take the ball to the byline and then try and dribble the ball into the goal round like 3 or 4 players.

5. The ball goes through the goal on several occasions.

6. Seems like if you don't work on 'defend set pieces' in match prep you will conceded from set pieces. Although I think it has a lot to do with the crossing issues. Unmarked people in the box and a lot of goals from corners scored by the feet rather than the head.

I'm liking the rest of the game though, just the match engine to be fiddled with and stop the crashes.

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Just a quick question is it possible to get the attributes diagram (Sort of hexagon thing) that is on the players attributes page to be shown in one of the boxes on the players profile page?

Cheers.

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Well said, and i think alot of us understand and agree with everything you said. But with release two weeks away, people are concerned. I purchase alot of games, play alot of Beta's, and im always reading developers and moderators stating that things will be fixed by release date, only for the them not to be. I can accept that games will be released with bugs and glitches, but with only two weeks to go, adjusting and correcting the major flaws in the ME seems optimistic at best.

Heavy gamers have been around long enough now to have paid for plenty of games, played the beta, identify all the faults, only for release date to still have all the faults. then patches over the next 2-4 months rectify the main issues. Where the game is at now, you'd think release date was still a few months away.

Did you actually read wwfan's post? You quoted it so I assume you didn't just do that for effect but yet your response seems to evade the point being made.

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I've hardly scored/conceded from crosses but one problem that seems to happen throughout is the keepers parryying it out to strikers, or rather dropping it at their feet for a tap in.

Strikers are much better at winning headers however, which will hopefully mean more effective TM support players.

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Did you actually read wwfan's post? You quoted it so I assume you didn't just do that for effect but yet your response seems to evade the point being made.

apologies if i was unclear, i was attempting to say that we understand the issues Beta presents, but normally these issues present in the current game represent a Beta 2 months out from release, not a few weeks.

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Yesterday i had a shot againt the post, after a few seconds , a player from my team took the ball and show @ the goalkeeper. i replayed it a few times because i couldn't find the bal.. He got stuck against the post, was invincable and then a player found it and tried to score..

i'll try to send it to the bugs forum so it can be solved.

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apologies if i was unclear, i was attempting to say that we understand the issues Beta presents, but normally these issues present in the current game represent a Beta 2 months out from release, not a few weeks.

Exactly, so you did miss the point of what wwfan was saying then?

As with everyone else claiming or alluding that two weeks won't be enough, what basis do you have for saying that? Do you have experience with the time scale of fixing match engines?

You have no idea how quickly or slowly an engine can take to be improved within a development window from it's current BETA state. From what I've read from SI and Miles on Twitter, the team are working flat out every day as you'd expect from a developer in the run up to release and there are plenty of man hours left to make a lot of progress.

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Exactly, so you did miss the point of what wwfan was saying then?

As with everyone else claiming or alluding that two weeks won't be enough, what basis do you have for saying that? Do you have experience with the time scale of fixing match engines?

You have no idea how quickly or slowly an engine can take to be improved within a development window from it's current BETA state. From what I've read from SI and Miles on Twitter, the team are working flat out every day as you'd expect from a developer in the run up to release and there are plenty of man hours left to make a lot of progress.

having played a considerable amount of games i can make rough estimations... plenty of hours left to make progress etc. but normally this is the time being spent fixing graphics bugs etc, correcting player data... not trying to fix the core fundementals of the game. 2 weeks isn't long enough, and may result in an unfinished product being released.

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Positives

- Love the fact that squads are fully updated

- The new match engine is superb

- The overall look and feel of FM13 is as good as it has ever been

Negatives

- The game is incredibly slow! I'm currently running Scotland only, large database - and it's still only half of 1 star game speed. Even between games is annoying... it takes about an hour to play through 1 week! :(

- I don't like the fact that, when saving the game, you can't see the save progress bar. Hopefully this will be fixed by release date

- I'm managing Raith Rovers (my boyhood team!) and Joe Hamill is actually quite good. I sincerely hope this is nothing more than a serious pre-release bug!:p

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It's BETA. To go with your analogy, we've been allowed into the jean maker's workshop to try on a new batch of pants that are still going through the tailoring process as a thanks for promising to buy the jeans at a later date. Your feedback for the jeans, if reported properly with bug reports, will help everyone get a pair they're happy with come release day.

Games and software have always had bugs but really games are getting more and more complex, with users owning a much wider array of systems making bugs more obvious, especially in a very data heavy programme such as FM.

So spot them, report them in the bugs forums and help them get fixed. This is still testing and we've all got a role to play. Like all programmes in BETA, there will be problems, but they've got just under two weeks to fix them, which by the sounds of it SI are doing their best with. Miles has said on Twitter that his next day off (including weekends) is mid-December.

But it IS Beta. The ability to "manage" and have your tactics affect the game hasn't been taken away, there are just a few bugs left to hunt down and kill that are hampering the game at the minute. Two weeks may not sound like a lot of time to get the problems fixed but SI are working hard and every bug report counts.

Personally, I see a hell of a lot of progress and potential in the new Match Engine (players now hold each other off, collision detection makes positioning viable and passing looks much better) it just needs our feedback - a source of testers far larger and more varied than the few dozen guys with similar machines in the SI offices - to help discover the issues that can be addressed before launch day.

Isn't it better this is done with a BETA than SI releasing a "finished" untested game and then trying to rush out a patch on release day and the weeks following it?

And you really believe releasing a Beta 2 weeks prior to release is going to prevent a day one patch followed by subsequent patches to fix reported issues? History clearly shows you that FM will receive 3 or 4 patches before most of the major game breaking bugs are removed before SI draw a line and move onto the next annual iteration, I don't see the 2 week beta release changing this.

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having played a considerable amount of games i can make rough estimations... plenty of hours left to make progress etc. but normally this is the time being spent fixing graphics bugs etc, correcting player data... not trying to fix the core fundementals of the game. 2 weeks isn't long enough, and may result in an unfinished product being released.

The data was locked months ago, very little if anything will change on that side of things, only obvious data entry mistakes. For all you know it could take 1 day to sort the main issues reported, thats the point, none of us know what goes into changing the ME in FM, infact wwfan is prob best, placed out of everyone except the guys working directly on the ME, to guage that.

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having played a considerable amount of games i can make rough estimations... plenty of hours left to make progress etc. but normally this is the time being spent fixing graphics bugs etc, correcting player data... not trying to fix the core fundementals of the game. 2 weeks isn't long enough, and may result in an unfinished product being released.

The ME team don't fix graphics or data bugs, they work solely on the ME so you're not properly understanding how the game is built and developed.

As PaulC has said countless times the ME will never be "finished" it will always be as good (or bad) as he's managed to make it and it will always be a work in progress.

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Yet to play the BETA but could anybody tell me if AI managed teams take the domestic cup a little more seriously? or do pick there better young stars instead of the garbage ones they chose on FM12

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Yet to play the BETA but could anybody tell me if AI managed teams take the domestic cup a little more seriously? or do pick there better young stars instead of the garbage ones they chose on FM12

Someone ran a holiday save to see state of the AI in the longer term, apparently they handled it much better, although still not perfect. But significantly better than FM12. Afraid the post is buried deep within these 19 pages, but what he wrote was pretty encouraging.

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Yet to play the BETA but could anybody tell me if AI managed teams take the domestic cup a little more seriously? or do pick there better young stars instead of the garbage ones they chose on FM12

Should be a lot better - I re-wrote the code for resting players so it takes into account the quality of player coming in to replace the existing player.

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In real life players would all do match prep, defenders would do different training to strikers and within those defenders and strikers, there would be individual training for those that require it to allocate a portion of their time to strength or whatever they need. With this system, those working on strength are giving up their training as a defender or striker to just focus on strength. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Just in case this wasn't cleared up before, I'll clarify it once more: Regardless of what individual training focuses you set on players, each player will do the team based training drills with a generic focus on his playing position. So defenders will train differently than strikers even if no-one has any individual focuses set. The coaches at the club will setup the team training drills (ie. the old "schedules") so that they will benefit each player differently based on his position and the manager can then finetune the focus of the training for each player via the individual focus (role or a specific attribute) if he wants to.

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I do love the match feed, that updates you with other scores in your League, and if you change position in the League table etc.

I always liked being able to see other scores whilst watching the match.

On the older FM's up untill 06 or 07, it always had other scores scrolling across the bottom of the match screen, even while watching the 2D pitch.

Slight issue though, during my captial one cup game, I was not being updated with other cup scores? The match feed was only updating me with stuff happening in my game..

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Should be a lot better - I re-wrote the code for resting players so it takes into account the quality of player coming in to replace the existing player.

Oh goody! happy with that then, nothing like a good old day out with a lower league side at one of the giants in the top domestic league :D. Was a little too easy to get a result on the previous one as the players replacing 1st teamers would struggle to get into their local sunday league team!

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Am I the only one who has problems with the scouting screen overview : 'scouting unknown talents , 'scouting known talents ' etc.. i prefered the old system as I find it difficult to see who is assigned where , in one overview screen.

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He NEVER can develop because he has something like 2 for professionalism. It works like that in FM : very low professionalism = NO development.

About player reports = just test it yourself. I'm 200% sure it works that way and nothing else.

I have been testing with all visible and hidden player and staff attributes in FM since 2008. Even if SI says I'm wrong, no I'm right!

ambition and determination, sportmanship and ofcourse age is also important if his CA will rise - so it is possible to develop with 2 in professionalism

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Am I the only one who has problems with the scouting screen overwiew : 'scouting unknown talents , 'scouting known talents ' etc.. i prefered the old system as I find it difficult to see who is assigned where , in one overview screen.

I certainly found it bloody confusing at my first glance. I am hoping that like most new features it will make sense once I understand it, but it certainly isn't well done in terms of being instantly accessible. As long as it makes sense in the end that will do me

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Just in case this wasn't cleared up before, I'll clarify it once more: Regardless of what individual training focuses you set on players, each player will do the team based training drills with a generic focus on his playing position. So defenders will train differently than strikers even if no-one has any individual focuses set. The coaches at the club will setup the team training drills (ie. the old "schedules") so that they will benefit each player differently based on his position and the manager can then finetune the focus of the training for each player via the individual focus (role or a specific attribute) if he wants to.

Just to make sure I have this right. Having a general team focus of attacking should, theoretically, look to help the central defenders learn how to be more ball-players as they're doing they're all doing CB role training with a little more passing/creative focus? And in balance a defensive team focus could help strikers be (almost) groomed into half-decent Defensive Forwards?

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a generic focus on his playing position

I see. I have Martin Olsson. His natural position is WBL but he can play LB, ML and AML. If I wanted to use him as AML, but the game decides he's a WBL, does that mean he'll be using some of his training time learning to be a WBL even though I'll never use him there?

The same with Lars Bender. He's a natural DM but I want to train him to play as DR. I'll only ever use him as a right back but he'll spend some of his time training as a DM?

The coaches at the club will setup the team training drills (ie. the old "schedules") so that they will benefit each player differently based on his position

This is what I'm not comfortable with. I don't like the idea of the game deciding what a players position is. I want to decide that. In FM2013 it just feels like I have less control over what players are training. You say the coaches will set it up but I want to see exactly what's going on in the background.

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Just in case this wasn't cleared up before, I'll clarify it once more: Regardless of what individual training focuses you set on players, each player will do the team based training drills with a generic focus on his playing position. So defenders will train differently than strikers even if no-one has any individual focuses set. The coaches at the club will setup the team training drills (ie. the old "schedules") so that they will benefit each player differently based on his position and the manager can then finetune the focus of the training for each player via the individual focus (role or a specific attribute) if he wants to.
This sounds much better than I imagined! A detailed explanation of the new system probably would have saved you a lot of criticism.

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Is there any plans to do some rolling updates during the BETA? Or do we have to wait until the release?

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Got to say that after spending much of the weekend playing the BETA version I am really unimpressed. I appreciate that this is not the full version but we can get a general feel for what FM13 will be like and I really am not keen on the new game.

It has taken a backwards step with the layout, particularly during a match. I am still stuck in the dark ages and play my games on only commentary, but there is far too much going on on the screen. It seems like you've tried to just cram as much info onto the screen as possibly.

The game doesn't run anywhere near as smoothly on my laptop either. It feels quite 'clunky'.

A couple of things I liked were the interview with your new chairman and transfer deadline day is much improved.

However, unfortunately this is not enough for me to spend £30 on the new game and for the first time since CM 01/02, which was my first ever CM/FM game, I will not be purchasing the new game after I cancelled my pre-order last night. I'm happy to stick with my long-term save on FM12 this year in the hope there is major improvements on FM14.

Just my opinions of course :)

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Just a quick question is it possible to get the attributes diagram (Sort of hexagon thing) that is on the players attributes page to be shown in one of the boxes on the players profile page?

Cheers.

Sorted it now.

Thanks for all the replies tho :D

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I like that the game feels smoother and faster, both in processing as well as during a match. Others have already pointed out the clunkiness of the UI, and the annoying removal of training schedules has been discussed to death.

But after playing a couple of matches I would add to the above the disappointing removal of the TV/classic view - or rather not being able to show a proper stat or overview screen while not in highlight mode. Why? I just don't understand it. I tried poking around in the various screens but it looks like we are stuck with one tiny table showing one single thing.

Also is there some underlying mechanism exclusive to using a director of football as opposed to doing everything yourself? Particularly when sales are concerned, but in other areas as well - does he just "click automatically" on "offer to clubs", or is there a difference between a DoF and a player trying to sell someone, things like that.

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Just to make sure I have this right. Having a general team focus of attacking should, theoretically, look to help the central defenders learn how to be more ball-players as they're doing they're all doing CB role training with a little more passing/creative focus? And in balance a defensive team focus could help strikers be (almost) groomed into half-decent Defensive Forwards?

Correct. And you can further groom specific players by adding individual focus training for them.

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Correct. And you can further groom specific players by adding individual focus training for them.

Thanks for the reply, Riz. A final, and probably obvious question, but if I decide to do a Role training then I'm assuming it's a focus on the categories of those attributes? So a DM training would skew the players' training to be even more defence/tactics/maybe ball control and not just an attempt to raise the highlighted key attributes?

If so this is going to totally change my decision on whether to get the game (in a positive manner).

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I see. I have Martin Olsson. His natural position is WBL but he can play LB, ML and AML. If I wanted to use him as AML, but the game decides he's a WBL, does that mean he'll be using some of his training time learning to be a WBL even though I'll never use him there? The same with Lars Bender. He's a natural DM but I want to train him to play as DR. I'll only ever use him as a right back but he'll spend some of his time training as a DM?

This is what I'm not comfortable with. I don't like the idea of the game deciding what a players position is. I want to decide that. In FM2013 it just feels like I have less control over what players are training. You say the coaches will set it up but I want to see exactly what's going on in the background.

The coaches will take into consideration what position the manager is playing the player in. I can understand the point about not seeing everything that happens under the hood and I've already added a feature request for improving the feedback on this area in training in future versions.

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And you really believe releasing a Beta 2 weeks prior to release is going to prevent a day one patch followed by subsequent patches to fix reported issues? History clearly shows you that FM will receive 3 or 4 patches before most of the major game breaking bugs are removed before SI draw a line and move onto the next annual iteration, I don't see the 2 week beta release changing this.

There will always be patches, but with a Beta release SI can take on a wide and varied array of data to look at issues that will crop up within their vast player base. This sort of feedback usually only comes back to them once the game is fully released, so having 2 weeks extra to work on it should make for a much more substantial, stable and workable game on launch day.

I never said there wouldn't be patches, they just hopefully won't be as vital as in past versions.

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Thanks for the reply, Riz. A final, and probably obvious question, but if I decide to do a Role training then I'm assuming it's a focus on the categories of those attributes? So a DM training would skew the players' training to be even more defence/tactics/maybe ball control and not just an attempt to raise the highlighted key attributes?

If so this is going to totally change my decision on whether to get the game (in a positive manner).

Setting the individual training focus on a specific role will skew the player training in the key attributes related to that role, similar to how the individual training on a specific attribute works. Obviously it won't be as effective on each attribute as focusing on just one specific attribute but it will help you groom the player into a particular role. In general, the individual training focus is always more defined and aimed at certain detailed aspects (attributes) of the player's game, whereas the team training is more geared towards the categories linked to the players position and any team focuses set by the manager.

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The coaches will take into consideration what position the manager is playing the player in. I can understand the point about not seeing everything that happens under the hood and I've already added a feature request for improving the feedback on this area in training in future versions.

I asked earlier but I think it got swamped by other posts.

Does this mean we can effectively train players "on the job", meaning they'll learn positions by playing them in matches rather than just re-training? If so, this is fantastic news.

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Just had a 7-6 thriller, I was 4-1 up at half time too. Bloody mental.

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The coaches will take into consideration what position the manager is playing the player in.

Which raises the question, if I have a 16 year old who I want to train up for a different position to his natural, I assume I'll have to take control of every youth match to make sure he's being played in the position I want. Otherwise, my assistant manager may decide, oh well he's a DM, I'll play him there, which means his training will be focused towards being a DM but in the future, I'd like to use him as RB.

I know you can set the youth/reserve teams to play with senior squad tactics, but it would be great if there was an option to make sure your youth are being played in the positions you want without you having to take control.

I can understand the point about not seeing everything that happens under the hood and I've already added a feature request for improving the feedback on this area in training in future versions.

Great. Much appreciated. I think people may warm to the new training a bit more if they could see, at a glance exactly what's going on in the background. In FM2012 we could at least see how time was being divided with this tab but it seems to have gone.

martinolssontrainingove.jpg

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We should be specifying what positions we consider players for, which would then be taken into account by training and tactics (as well as transfer negotiations).

Allowing us to highlight a primary formation, and also a secondary (would tertiary be taking it too far?) for backup instances, is very important to getting this all working as we want.

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Setting the individual training focus on a specific role will skew the player training in the key attributes related to that role, similar to how the individual training on a specific attribute works. Obviously it won't be as effective on each attribute as focusing on just one specific attribute but it will help you groom the player into a particular role. In general, the individual training focus is always more defined and aimed at certain detailed aspects (attributes) of the player's game, whereas the team training is more geared towards the categories linked to the players position and any team focuses set by the manager.

Huh....You know, I think I might see a lot of potential for this. I'd still prefer to have a way of getting visual feedback in how it adjusts the training levels but I can deal with not having that for this version.

Riz, I think you just got me moving up to FM13. :D

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We should be specifying what positions we consider players for, which would then be taken into account by training and tactics (as well as transfer negotiations).

Allowing us to highlight a primary formation, and also a secondary (would tertiary be taking it too far?) for backup instances, is very important to getting this all working as we want.

Wouldn't you be doing this in effect by retraining a player up to a certain proficiency in a new position though?

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Wouldn't you be doing this in effect by retraining a player up to a certain proficiency in a new position though?

No, because you're not telling the player (and your staff, and the footballing world etc) where you want him to play. Currently he trains where he's played, and as hursty (I think it was) who pointed out, young players are trained wherever our staff play them.

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My issue, aside from the match engine(goals from crossing, tight angles, poor goal keeping decisions), is that i promised to board to play attacking football.

In my confidence screen it says something like: 'board promises-poor-the board are disappointed that you don't seem to be playing attacking football'.

My tactics have a minimum of 16 for the team mentality settings!

Could it be that when I view my profile the way I play isn't accounted for? I play 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 but the profile reads 'preferred formation 4-4-2, playing mentality balanced.' I've never played 4-4-2! I know this was an issue in fm12 but it seems to be affecting the board confidence. Anyone else had a similar issue?

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Wouldn't you be doing this in effect by retraining a player up to a certain proficiency in a new position though?

I'd say so. Training a player in a Role before moving him into that position and you're effectively able to train him in two roles at the same time (the one he is being played in and the one in training). Now I'm sure this is going to limit the effect of the training compared to moving him into the new position but it allows for more scope than I thought it did.

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@dibbers

What you intend them to play and how they actually perform are two different things.

If what's happening on match day doesn't meet your chariman's requirements, it doesn't matter what setting the Attacking slider is on.

You need to be creating lots of chances, scoring goals, to meet those requirements.

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I really like this game and though I'm mostly winning, the inconsistency and already mentioned issues killing all the fun and enjoyment from the game. I just hope that SI has improved version of ME and we're now testing pre-previous version of it. And I hope for a rolling update to ME before release, so we all mass test it again to be in good shape for the release. I mean, large portion of current ME bugs are discovered, so we can move on for the next portion ;) .

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Thanks Ackter. The fact that the game doesn't know how I play in my profile seems to worry me a bit though - could this affect future offers for me?

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So basically breaking down a bit what you guys have done is taken the train one attribute feature from previous games and now made it so you can focus training on mutilple attributes at the same time?

Does the changing training focus affect how the team plays, or just how it trains? Or do they kinda work off each other?

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I play 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 but the profile reads 'preferred formation 4-4-2, playing mentality balanced.' I've never played 4-4-2!

By 4-2-2-2 do you mean flat back 4, 2 MCs, 2 attacking wingers and 2 strikers? That probably gets classed as 4-4-2 by the game, in the same way a 451 with a sitting DM and 2 wide wingers is a 451, not a a 4-1-2-2-1. And even if you mean with AMCs in behind 2 strikers, the game may still classify this as a 4-4-2 variant.

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Thanks Ackter. The fact that the game doesn't know how I play in my profile seems to worry me a bit though - could this affect future offers for me?

I think it stems from people not being able to correctly correlate their intentions with their results.

The game needs to be giving us feedback on what type of football we're actually playing so that we can make adjustments.

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No, because you're not telling the player (and your staff, and the footballing world etc) where you want him to play. Currently he trains where he's played, and as hursty (I think it was) who pointed out, young players are trained wherever our staff play them.

Not me but I echo what Tiger has said. ;)

I guess that you'd have to retrain him in the position first before any sort of change would occur. Once you've got the youngster at least capable of doing a job in that position, you set a high focus on attributes he lacks in.

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