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One thing that's always bugged me about FM...

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No matter how poorly a manager does at a club, if they have a strong reputation they will always get another job somewhere else, where they will fail miserably, get sacked and then get a job somewhere else before the cycle carries on and on and on.

I appreciate that there needs to be some way of determining how good people are as managers in the game and therefore the level of jobs they should be looking for, but this aspect of the reputation system really is flawed as far as I'm concerned.

A perfect example for me is AVB on FM12. On my saves, he always gets sacked by Chelsea within the first season and usually ends up going to Man City not long after. Once he's got sacked from there he tends to hop around Europe's top clubs getting sack after sack after sack.

Can anybody advise if this has been improved for FM13?

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Surely that just mirrors real life to some extent? Many managers who are sacked will reappear shortly in another equivalent job- might be worth looking at he the top mangers in any country and see how many of them have been sacked and returned.

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I think just using reputation as a measure of how good a person it at something is flawed in FM as it is in real life. The reputation attributes in FM aren't sophisticated enough to be the one-size-fits-all tool it is in FM currently. As the OP suggests, the decision process regarding how the boards hire a manager must take more into account than just how well-known his name is.

Recent trophies comes to mind as something that could be made into a hidden, weighted attribute. That, along with an overachievement/underachievement attribute duo, would make the decision process much more dynamic. The managers would have both a long-term big-name factor and a short-term modifier that would turn the managerless clubs away from big-name managers who have failed at their clubs recently.

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In my game AVB got sacked at Chelsea then took over at Tottenham! Totally unrealistic.

That said, it is a problem in the game, and not only at the top level.

When I was playing a file in the lower English leagues there was a manager, can't remember his name, only his facepack picture, who after about 20 years had managed 12 of the League 2 teams of the time.

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Surely that just mirrors real life to some extent? Many managers who are sacked will reappear shortly in another equivalent job- might be worth looking at he the top mangers in any country and see how many of them have been sacked and returned.
It depends how they are sacked. Most don't if they are sacked but do if they are resigned. A manager that has failed is less likely to be picked up by an equivalent club as it suggests they are out of their depth, and the fans would be less likely to take to him.

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I think one of the biggest issues is the AI's decision to leave clubs when they have actually managed to build something good. I am managing in Germany right now, and in the last 4 years the Dortmund manager who had been at the club for only 2 years, won the german cup and the euro cup, was challenging for the league and then left for a mid table chelsea who had not won anything in 10 years, had a terrible squad, no money as abramovich has left and was sacked within 8 months, then last night the Bayern manager stomps the league, for the second year in a row and then leaves for an 18th placed Liverpool who have not been in Europe in 5 years and are in administration, only to be sacked after less than a year as well. These managers shouldnt be walking out on their top successful clubs, just because the EPL has a higher rep and these teams for some reason still out rep the German teams. I get that Liverpool and Chelsea are big clubs, but after 10 years of no success for either, and one in admin, there is no way the Bayern manager would walk out on his record beating team to join a sinking ship with very little chance of staying in the EPL.

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Surely that just mirrors real life to some extent? Many managers who are sacked will reappear shortly in another equivalent job- might be worth looking at he the top mangers in any country and see how many of them have been sacked and returned.

To some extent yes. But on FM12, AVB seems to go to big club after big club, turning them into nothing more than a mid-table side, winning no trophies yet he will repeatedly walk into the top jobs. Surely after a while clubs would look at his record and turn him down?

Yes managers do get sacked and hired elsewhere in real life, but in FM the AI managers could spend 20 years hopping around Europe's biggest clubs and not win a single trophy, yet they're almost guaranteed to walk into another top job purely because they have a strong reputation.

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Yeah AVB has managed almost every club in Europe in my game.

There's no guarantee he won't irl, he's started pretty much like he does in FM :D

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Managers moving a lot despite having no success happens irl, but not that often. For example, I've never understood why some managers like Sven Goran Eriksson or Juande Ramos keep getting very good (and often really well paid) jobs even though their records show failure after failure (excluding the inital success that established them as good managers).

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Alan Ball was relegated 7 times as player and manager - never seemed to affect his ability to get decent jobs

Mark Hughes seems to be relying on his reputation as a player to get Premier League jobs - what has he ever achieved as a manager?

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In regards to Eriksson, when was the last time he got a 'very good' job in club football? His last two jobs were at Notts County and Leicester and it appears that he only got those jobs as they had wealthy new owners (or so they thought in Notts' case) who wanted a big name to put their club on the map. It came out that he applied for the Leeds job after Grayson was sacked and couldn't even get that.

Ramos is currently managing in Ukraine and his previous job was at CSKA Moscow where he lasted little over a month. I'd be surprised if he got another top job in Europe again.

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I believe Mark Hughes has only been sacked by one club which was Man City. He left Blackburn and Fulham on his own accord and he didn't do bad jobs at either club. I wouldn't say one sacking is enough to badly effect a managers ability to get another decent job, but on FM managers get countless top jobs despite having poor records and winning no trophies at each of their former clubs.

After a while managers get found out and clubs wont go near them. See Paul Ince, Iain Dowie etc.

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I think their rep needs to take a big hit everytime they get sacked. AVB has managed about 10 clubs in my save.

Maybe AVB needs to be a bit more accurately represented, he had great success at Porto and was average at Chelsea but not given much time. He seems to be doing ok at Spurs, there are no real indicators as to why he would fail at every job so there must be something wrong with his stats.

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He was successful in one of my saves.

Is it possible that part of the problem is that he, like every other AI manager, fails in leagues which have human managers in?

Also that managers jump about too much which stops them from building up ferguson style dynasties

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He was successful in one of my saves.

Is it possible that part of the problem is that he, like every other AI manager, fails in leagues which have human managers in?

Also that managers jump about too much which stops them from building up ferguson style dynasties

AI managers (in FM12) can't "build up dynasties" since they are not capable of choosing the right players for their tactic. AVB seems to have a poor tactic chosen for him, that's all there is to it, really. Some tactics require very specific players to work, and the AI can't replicate that. Other tactics are just poor.

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Maybe AVB needs to be a bit more accurately represented, he had great success at Porto and was average at Chelsea but not given much time. He seems to be doing ok at Spurs, there are no real indicators as to why he would fail at every job so there must be something wrong with his stats.

TBH I don't think AVB will be successful in English football - seems to have very poor man management skills and didn't know how to handle the player power at Chelsea and there are rumours of more problems at Spuds - maybe Portugal has a different player culture that he could handle - or maybe players under him are happier when they are winning which would make any manager look good.... even Paul Ince :D

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Trying to think of 'Big' Name managers who have been sacked and ended up in a high profile Job and some names are Mancini Inter - City, Capello Madrid - Milan than Madrid-England again, Gullit Chelsea- Newcastle. But than i agree with people who have said if sacked/resign from 2-3 'Big' jobs in a row than you should have reputation decreased as obvious names that involve this are Gullit again, Juande Ramos, Rijkarrd. But there are always managers how in their own country will ALWAYS get a job due to their past success at one or two clubs such as Redknapp in England and Alberto Zaccheroni of Italy.

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Keegan is one that always seems to get top jobs even though he repeatedly showed he didn't have the bottle to handle them

Not sure about that, he got Newcastle as his first job when they were a struggling 2nd division team (which is now known as the Championship for those who think I'm referring to the current League Two!), then Fulham after Fayed took over when they were still in the lower leagues (and they can hardly ever be called a big team). He got England part-time (originally) as a last resort because no one else wanted it (and remember he did a decent job at Newcastle before it all fell apart so his name still held some weight as a manager). Then he got Man City when they'd just been relegated and were still in their original state of being the complete shambles of a club who thought they were big yet consistently bounced around the leagues.

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Managerial merry-go-round is full of managers who performed poorly but still get work elsewhere - Steve Bruce, McCarthy, Megson etc

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Managerial merry-go-round is full of managers who performed poorly but still get work elsewhere - Steve Bruce, McCarthy, Megson etc

How McCarthy ever gets a job again will be beyond me!

Relegated Sunderland with a than record LOWEST points total till Derby came along and he was there ALL season! Than he pretty much set Wolves up for relegation before being sacked! Such a terrible manager! Still living of the Ireland success!

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As a Sunderland fan, McCarthy isn't a terrible manager at all. The side he got us promoted with performed far beyond their means in the Championship, and he only had £4m to spend on the squad after promotion. No manager could have kept that side up.

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there are rumours of more problems at Spuds

Spurs, please.

And they're just rumours made up by the Harry-loving tabloid press.

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Strachan, now there's an awful manager. Seems everyone's cottoned on now and he doesn't get jobs anymore.

On a side note, I was recently on holiday in Malaga and parked my car on Calle Strachan!

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FM isn't flawed more than real life in that respect ;)

That actual AVB issue however seems to be that he's crap in FM at any club. So obviously his favoured tactic is not so much favoured by the ME.

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I had a game that was in the 2040s where I was managing outside England, and by the mid 2020s Arsenal started dominating. After Mourinho left Arsenal to manage Portugal in 2028, AVB took over and won the PL several times and a CL so he doesn't seem to be terrible ALL the time. Haven't checked what his record was before Arsenal though.

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i think that, while it's probably just about mirror in rl where some managers seem to get work based on reputation alone, there are some weird effect in the game.

Quite often, and I've seen this happen a lot, a few clubs will sack their managers in roughly the same time. What happened then is the managers who got sacked seem to be happy to just swap seats. This is the example in my current save game:

Swansea sacked Terry Connor

Tottenham sacked Mark Hughes

Forest sacked Stuart Pearce

Leeds are doing crap and want to sack Paul Lambert

What happened then was, Paul Lambert took the Swansea job, Terry Connor take over Forest, Pearce goes to Tottenham and Mark Hughes got the nods for the Leeds job. This happen not once, but quite a few times in various scale.

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There are plenty of managers out there who have hopped around various clubs, or surprise by finding work when others think they might now.

However, in the game, there is also a technical limitation depending on the size of your database and what leagues are active or inactive. The game may only have a certain amount of staff and managers to choose from, therefore this will always impact which people clubs might end up targeting if there are not enough viable candidates to go around. Having said that, there's always room for improvement of course. :)

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AVB won in Portugal at Porto not because the difference between players styles, but because on Porto they have a president that buys referees with prostitutes, trips and dinners lol, true story, the later released wires tell everything but they were "unadmissiable" at court, anyway, that's how AVB won anything at all. He's not even above average imo.

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In regards to Eriksson' date=' when was the last time he got a 'very good' job in club football? His last two jobs were at Notts County and Leicester and it appears that he only got those jobs as they had wealthy new owners (or so they thought in Notts' case) who wanted a big name to put their club on the map. It came out that he applied for the Leeds job after Grayson was sacked and couldn't even get that.

Ramos is currently managing in Ukraine and his previous job was at CSKA Moscow where he lasted little over a month. I'd be surprised if he got another top job in Europe again.[/quote']

After success at Lazio, Eriksson managed England, Man City, Mexico, Ivory Coast...and failed every single time.

After success in Spain, Ramos managed Spurs, Real M., CSKA and now Dnipro...Kept failing.

Maybe those are not all top jobs, but they're definitely really well paid. Those two alone earned literally millions off their glorious past.

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SI to remove unsubstantiated rumours before libel proceedings begin?

What is unsubstantiated about wires? And there is nothing libelous in that post..it was his opinion.

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In my main FM12 save AVB jumped around the big clubs so often, I dont think he held down a job for over 2 years.

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Has anyone mentioned Di Matteo? Sacked by West Brom, only to go and win the Champs League with Chelsea.

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Has anyone mentioned Di Matteo? Sacked by West Brom, only to go and win the Champs League with Chelsea.

You mean fluke the Champs League.

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It's clearly a bug. Certainly not a game breaker, but something SI probably want to look into if they want the game to be more realistic.

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AI managers (in FM12) can't "build up dynasties" since they are not capable of choosing the right players for their tactic. AVB seems to have a poor tactic chosen for him, that's all there is to it, really. Some tactics require very specific players to work, and the AI can't replicate that. Other tactics are just poor.

Yes, managers tactical awareness and signing players to fit their system should be improved especially for top managers

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It's clearly a bug. Certainly not a game breaker, but something SI probably want to look into if they want the game to be more realistic.

It's not clearly a bug as it happens IRL, as other posts have mentioned.

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Has anyone mentioned Di Matteo? Sacked by West Brom, only to go and win the Champs League with Chelsea.
He was also assistant manager for several months under Villas-Boas, and not to mention the fact he is a former Chelsea player and hence a fan-favourite of sorts. It's not that unusual to promote an assistant manager to a manager.

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True but the theme of the thread was about managers getting high-profile jobs without proving at the highest level that they deserve it. He falls into that category.

Perhaps there should be more instances in-game of former players going back to their old clubs? This doesn't happen often enough.

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I'd say that Di Matteo is a bit of an anomoly. He didn't do badly at all at WBA and there was some outrage amongst their fans when he was sacked. He was then just given the Chelsea job as a temporary measure. I don't think anybody actually expected anything from him and the plan was to appoint a permanent manager at the end of last season. Just turned out that RDM did a great job so he got the gig himself.

How many times in real life do you see managers being sacked from top clubs, who should be challenging for the title, when struggling in mid table and winning no trophies, and then a few weeks/months later walking into another top job, and then the same again and again.

Manager's previous failings simply do not seem to count towards wether they get a job or not, it is simply down to their reputation alone.

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Has anyone mentioned Di Matteo? Sacked by West Brom, only to go and win the Champs League with Chelsea.

He's doing well right now, but that was the most defensive and embarassing Champions League anyone could ever win. How the opposition they faced didn't put them away is beyond me. Also when people like Torres and Hazard acknowledge how bad they played by winning it you have a pretty dire situation.

EDIT: Also it was in one of the video blogs that in fact, manager and staff will be choosing players for their own system is in fm 2013. This should go a long way to developing this part of the game.

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