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Steve Downing

Will FM13 use the Mac OS X Lion/Mountain Lion proper full screen system?

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You got me curious, can you elaborate? What is different from ordinary full screen? A link with screenshots would suffice.

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It won't for this version Steve, but it is on the agenda and something we'd like to do at some point in the future.

Full screen on the Mac OS certainly rocks and is something many of us really enjoy using here.

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Oh for goodness sake that is so poor Neil, it should have been in the last version but to not have it in this one is so disappointing!

It's easy to say that, but FM itself currently supports some much older technology on a lower level to do with Mac OS, which has prevented us from implementing this at this point.

Our game offers a lot more support for older hardware and software than most games or software do, so our migration forward tends to be slower than most as a result. Of course, as each year passes, we do tend to move along so we can progress and implement newer technology but we do so not without serious consideration and are very mindful about that.

It's a decision we're totally happy and comfortable with Steve. It's the difference sometimes between some people being able to play FM or not at all and we're proud how many of the lower end of the scale we cater for. There are plenty of other leading and cutting edge software out there who do not support this yet either, but not for the same reasons as ours, more because they see it as a luxury.

We don't, we really like it, but we're not ready for it just yet.

Hope that helps.

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Ooooh, sounds like something I wanted for a long time for Windows - the option to run in a borderless screen-sized window. I think I've been using some tool to achieve that.

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You're right it is easy to say it, but had you kept up with developments on Mac APIs you wouldn't have this problem, it wouldn't mean leaving older systems behind at all, simply supporting more modern systems better whilst gracefully falling back on older systems. So in fairness, you lose nothing and gain the benefits of supporting Apple's latest tech.

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You're right it is easy to say it, but had you kept up with developments on Mac APIs you wouldn't have this problem, it wouldn't mean leaving older systems behind at all, simply supporting more modern systems better whilst gracefully falling back on older systems. So in fairness, you lose nothing and gain the benefits of supporting Apple's latest tech.

I think we're in the best position to comment on our state of affairs with this and our track record for Mac support of the years has been excellent. There haven't been that many developers in that time able to develop for both PC and Mac concurrently or release a hybrid disc with both versions at the same time rather than relying on ports that are done via third party months and months later.

Thanks for your feedback though.

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So explain further, you mentioned earlier older technology support being a limitation, which API set are you using?

Just because others have weaker support for the Mac does not justify your lack of keeping up.

Can you explain in detail how transitioning to the current set of APIs would remove support from older machines - what is the oldest version of Mac OS you support?

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So explain further, you mentioned earlier older technology support being a limitation, which API set are you using?

Just because others have weaker support for the Mac does not justify your lack of keeping up.

Can you explain in detail how transitioning to the current set of APIs would remove support from older machines - what is the oldest version of Mac OS you support?

We have some legacy code that remains from supporting older systems, and because of this, we cannot currently easily support the native full screen that 10.7 introduced.

While our minimum requirements are slowly moving forward to be fair in part for other reasons, some of this legacy code still remains and until we find the time to re-write what remains, we can't support it – however much we want to.

It's more work than what it may seem from the outside. In the end, we're a small team, and it comes down to a question of available resources and priority. But we're not saying "never", it's very much something the team want to add in the future.

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I am a mac user and I agree this function would be amazing if implemented properly however it wont dampen the playing experience and I don't believe it's as big a deal as you making out Steve.

Don't like it don't play it. Feedback is one thing being obnoxious about it is another.

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It's fine chaps, let's try not to get on each others backs. :)

Steve, I've answered your initial query and provided some more details regarding our position on this matter at the current time, so while we appreciate you're still disappointed, I hope you can accept where we at with it and that you can still enjoy Football Manager no matter what.

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Yes, FM offers a lot more support for older hardware and software than most games or software do, but in the Mac ecosystem that statement is pointless, as the Mac userbase is the most up-to-date userbase on the planet. You'll struggle to find people using anything below 10.4 or even 10.5, as Mac users are more inclined to upgrade both their OS when an update comes out, and their hardware more frequently (and when buying new hardware they automatically get the newest OS version).

It's understandable you want to keep catering to older Microsoft systems, like XP, but to use that excuse for not keeping up with the times on OS X sounds to me like your OS X porting of the game is outsourced or not prioritised. A simple core system feature like OS X full-screen (which was introduced in July 2011) should be at the minimum requirements for a brand new OS X application in November 2012.

Judging by the ever-so dismissive answers, I'm going to take a guess that playing FM2013 on a MacBook Pro Retina will be a horrid experience?

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Bit of a disappointing response really. It's slightly worrying that a huge number of indy developers on the Mac App Store have been able to add full screen support to their apps and games yet SI (who have now had 16-17+ months to do it.... I guess you have Mac developer licenses for pre-release?) have been unable to. As I said last year, we might see it in time for FM15 when OS X has another new window management system. ;)

Judging by the ever-so dismissive answers, I'm going to take a guess that playing FM2013 on a MacBook Pro Retina will be a horrid experience?

Playing FM 2012 on a Retina MB Pro is horrid. You can't read any of the text without straining your eyes because it's pixelated and doesn't use any of the in-built text rendering methods. You could always set the resolution to the full 2880x1800, but then it's too small to read. I don't care about the graphics being improved as such (that is a massive undertaking - something where a CSS based skin would be amazing), but the text?! Disappointing.

@Neil - the problem is, on the Retina MB Pro, you can't enjoy the game. It's almost unplayable. Full screen and you can't read anything, windowed and it's more pixellated than a 8-bit Mario.

I still maintain that Mac users are treated as ever so slightly second-class users, both from SI/SEGA and Steam/Valve. The Steam client itself is awful on a Mac and eats most your system resources, and when you put FM into the equation it gets even worse. Still, I'm going off on a tangent now, so I'll stop.

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I have a Macbook Pro Retina, would be nice to hear from Neil if FM13 will be supported and the text will be clear as it should be? and not distorted like FM12?

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I have a Macbook Pro Retina, would be nice to hear from Neil if FM13 will be supported and the text will be clear as it should be? and not distorted like FM12?

If SI can't even implement a feature first implemented into core OS features more than a year ago, I wouldn't hold my breath concerning retina display support.

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I'm a little disappointed that full screen won't be implemented this year but am glad to hear that it is wanted by SI. That's good news.

I play FM on a 13' macbook pro which has a maximum resolution of 1280x800. This means that when you play in windowed mode you can't see the whole screen - the bottom is off the screen and obscured by the dock (the dock can be moved out of the way but I like it at the bottom!). You can get around this by adding a couple of lines to the info.plist file that forces the game into presenter mode. This automatically hides the dock and the system menu bar - allowing you to see the whole window.. Playing like this you can move the full screen window to a new desktop and then it's easy to three finger swipe back to your work when the boss comes by :).

It would be really nice if this, at least, was added as an option in the display preferences. Adding the lines to the info.plist file is easy but it has to be done every time there is an update and is a bit of hassle that shouldn't be necessary.

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I still maintain that Mac users are treated as ever so slightly second-class users, both from SI/SEGA and Steam/Valve.

This is completely normal though, given the whole 95% PC, 5% Mac market share. How can you expect SI, SEGA, Valve, or anyone else for that matter, to put an equal amount of resources into satisfying 5% of their market as they put into the other 95%? That would be bonkers.

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This is completely normal though, given the whole 95% PC, 5% Mac market share. How can you expect SI, SEGA, Valve, or anyone else for that matter, to put an equal amount of resources into satisfying 5% of their market as they put into the other 95%? That would be bonkers.

Apple's market share is closer to 15% now and mac sales are growing while PC sales have stagnated recently. So this number is going to keep growing in the short term at least.

That aside, it is in every companies interest to satisfy all their customers. Not just some.

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Apple's market share is closer to 15% now and mac sales are growing while PC sales have stagnated recently. So this number is going to keep growing in the short term at least.

Be careful with the figures there, when you see Apple figures that high, they are usually including iPads. I'm talking about the desktop/laptop computer market, which is after all what FM is played on.

That aside, it is in every companies interest to satisfy all their customers. Not just some.

Of course every company would love to be able to satisfy all their customers, but that's in a perfect world and in reality is not achievable. It is also a reality that a company will allocate more resources to satisfying the largest markets, and less to the smaller markets (unless the company is run by morons).

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Be careful with the figures there, when you see Apple figures that high, they are usually including iPads. I'm talking about the desktop/laptop computer market, which is after all what FM is played on.

That's not quite true. The OSX Vs. Windows market share percentage is generally accurate because they're released by third-party sources. It's the "Personal Computer manufacturers" figures that are biased towards Apple because they include the iPads.

I think, without checking, that most recently that OSX was at about 8%, not quite as high as 15%, but still 800 out of 10000 customers. ;)

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I'm a little disappointed that full screen won't be implemented this year but am glad to hear that it is wanted by SI. That's good news.

I play FM on a 13' macbook pro which has a maximum resolution of 1280x800. This means that when you play in windowed mode you can't see the whole screen - the bottom is off the screen and obscured by the dock (the dock can be moved out of the way but I like it at the bottom!). You can get around this by adding a couple of lines to the info.plist file that forces the game into presenter mode. This automatically hides the dock and the system menu bar - allowing you to see the whole window.. Playing like this you can move the full screen window to a new desktop and then it's easy to three finger swipe back to your work when the boss comes by :).

It would be really nice if this, at least, was added as an option in the display preferences. Adding the lines to the info.plist file is easy but it has to be done every time there is an update and is a bit of hassle that shouldn't be necessary.

Can you please tell me how to do this in a noobish way. Would help a lot.

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I have a MacBook and FM is fine on there, there is a little shortcode that you can use that takes you from full-screen to 'windowed' quickly. I use this method and it works really well so I can browse the web, or listen to music whilst playing FM.

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I have a MBP with Retina Screen and certainly don't find the game "unplayable" in any way when running in full screen. Also, holding CMD and pressing Tab will switch straight to windowed mode which as ItsJoeTurner said will let you browse Safari or iTunes, then just tab back to FM and reset it to full screen via the Window drop down menu. I really don't find it that much of an inconvenience.

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We have some legacy code that remains from supporting older systems, and because of this, we cannot currently easily support the native full screen that 10.7 introduced.

While our minimum requirements are slowly moving forward to be fair in part for other reasons, some of this legacy code still remains and until we find the time to re-write what remains, we can't support it – however much we want to.

It's more work than what it may seem from the outside. In the end, we're a small team, and it comes down to a question of available resources and priority. But we're not saying "never", it's very much something the team want to add in the future.

How are you guys doing on this one? I.e. native full screen.

As I haven't played on the Mac how does it work today? Isn't it possible to cmd+tab to the desktop?

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