Why We're Getting FMC this Year

[Kenco]

We are not talking about if it's optional or not, we are talking about SI strategy, how they balanced 'engineer time' between developing new market target and improving the main game, and how is their final goal and in the future, what will be FM... As I said before, create a FMC module doesn't bother me, it's the lack of real improvement in the main game and its interface who trouble me....

If we read this thread, it seems that 90% of people used 10% of the capacities of FM...They have a ferrari but drive like having a Ford.(Vauxhall). So we can imagine than in a few years, FM main game will no more exist or no more improved as 90% of people doesn't care of all improvement made from 15 years.

Have you considered the possibility that they are planning for the future and not just thinking about each release on a game-by-game basis? By creating this much wanted feature, perhaps they have sacrificed some time spent on the main game, we don't know for sure. But they obviously have a business plan that sees them increasing sales this year which will allow them more resources to improve the main game next year. It's basically what they do every year.

It's like in-game when you get a stadium expansion to increase future revenue, you have to use a reduced capacity for a few months but ultimately it will be much better in the long run.

[Matej]

I already bought the game. Like every year from 1993. I support SI for long time. But i also can be critic if something is not goin in the right way. fMC is ok, but nothing new. They just speed the game for people who dont have time.

I want to see list of 900 new features. Anyone ?? I just hope match engine is not the same + ball physics.

[Smurf]

you can understand why some people are afraid to see FM moving to another type of game in the next few years.

No I can't understand it at all. It's been said by Miles Jacobsen and Paul Colyer on numerous occasions that FM main game is sacrosanct.

People saying that the FM main game will go the route of FMC are completely making that up and have no basis to make those statements.

[Mr_Pink]

We are not talking about if it's optional or not, we are talking about SI strategy, how they balanced 'engineer time' between developing new market target and improving the main game, and how is their final goal and in the future, what will be FM... As I said before, create a FMC module doesn't bother me, it's the lack of real improvement in the main game and its interface who trouble me....

If we read this thread, it seems that 90% of people used 10% of the capacities of FM...They have a ferrari but drive like having a Ford.(Vauxhall). So we can imagine than in a few years, FM main game will no more exist or no more improved as 90% of people doesn't care of all improvement made from 15 years.

I can understand youre worries jim, but ask yourself how deep and complex you want the game to become. We all know SI has added a bit more complexity to the game every year, so where does it end?

When you need a degree in all different areas to play it? When we get to that point there isnt any more FM at all so SI havent got any option if they still wants to sell this product in the future.

All you really can hope for is that FM makes more money, hires more people and you might get an even better FM without any shortcuts.

[spankie]

Thanks, you give me right of my post from 11:37.....what you describe, it's far from a classical FM game. So you can understand why some people are afraid to see FM moving to another type of game in the next few years. It was a chess game in the future it will be draughts.

The full FM game will always remain. FMC was developed as an alternative game mode for those that want and need a more streamlined game as they still want to play FM. If FMC wasn't made then a lot of those people wouldn't have bothered with FM, I know as I am oone of those people.

There is no indication at all that FMC will replace FM, especially as a lot of people at SI still play the full FM game and wouldn't be happy themselves if they were forced to play FMC. If Miles announce that FMC was the only thing that would be devopled then I would expect a mutiny at SI towers and rightfully so as FM will always be the core game. FMC won't be, it'll either stay as an alternative game mode or it might be split out into it's own separate game.

SI have hired more people, so any impact on any kind of development of the full FM game was probably lessened. There may ahve been some impact that might have meant that a feature or two couldn't make it into FM13, but you are in no way talking about major groundshaking features.

All of your arguments were made when FML was released as people thought that the development of that meant that FM has suffered. It didn't suffer as a separate team developed FML.

In fact FML was a benefit to FM as some of the features used made their way into the full FM game, like shouts.

Basically as well as being an option that will help to increase sales (and bring more profit to SI that they can use to help develop FM in the future) FMC may also be of benefit to the full game as some of the features used in FMC could make their way into FM. For example the match plans and instant result may be put into FM as a lot of people are interested in it.

[theboydonegood]

I would love an instant result in the full game, strange as it may seem having to sit through the games if for me a pain in the backside and i will play FMC purely because it has this feature.

At the moment I just set my team up and go on holiday for some games, especially games that are not important, such as league cup and early rounds of FA Cup, also if I have won the league with a few games to go I will holiday and only play the Champions League games.

Before anyone starts wittering on about how Alex Ferguson doesnt 'skip' games etc I would like to point out that I am not Alex Ferguson nor am I a professional football manager, I am a nearly middle aged man sat in his pyjamas playing on his laptop for an hour or two a day.

[jim morrow]

Eugene you read but don't understand : a possible scenario is : one day FM "classic" can stay as a game mode as promise by SI guys but no more improve(or minus improvement)....And all improvements will be target to the FMC version cause they will see that 95% of users will use only this mode.

That's the point of this thread....

[theboydonegood]

Eugene you read but don't understand : a possible scenario is : one day FM "classic" can stay as a game mode as promise by SI guys but no more improve(or minus improvement)....And all improvements will be target to the FMC version cause they will see that 95% of users will use only this mode.

That's the point of this thread....

But if that's what 95% of users want then SI would be silly to base their whole commercial business model around 5% wouldn't they?

I dont think that will happen though - I think people will play a mixture of the two games as I will.

I want to play the full game to get a handle on the new features and intricacies but longer term will probably play FMC mainly because of the result only button

[milnerpoint]

I can just imagine the meeting now,

"Miles - Hey guys i have a great idea how we can bury our company, whilst making less money, lets stop making the real game and focus on the mini game we decided to add a few years back. Not only will be lose 90% of our long term customers, we will also make sure they bad mouth us constantly and put people off touching any of our other products"

"Paul - Uh, ill get my coat"

[WizbaII]

First off, thanks to all who responded to my question. I did not expect to return here in 24 hours only to find that there's been quite the conversation in my absence.

I want to start off by saying that I did not mean to start any sort of war. I certainly didn't start this thread just to say "I'm right and you're wrong." I only wanted a discussion and conversation and it is with this tone that I will say what I have to say based on all the posts I just read.

To clarify my OP post, I did not at all insinuate that I think FMC should be abolished or that it is "silly". I just said that I don't get it. And I still don't really get it, but now I understand other people's thinking processes a little better. So to players like milnerpoint who I respect, I say that if my box of thinking is so small, I'm just asking you to poke some holes in it so I can breathe in there

I heard a lot of people say playing FM is a time issue. Who has the patience to play a full season in just one short month? I also read that a lot of people have been asking for something like this for a long time. I respect both of those opinions. I also, of course, read Neil Brock's posts in which he basically summed up all the arguments for FMC in a clear way. I have to say I did find it funny when he said some players don't have time to post here just like they don't have time to play. Ironically, I first started off by reading the forums for a while and it was one of the reasons I decided to get my first FM game. Anyway, I understand all those arguments for FMC now that I've heard them. They aren't majority arguments and they aren't intriguing, but they are nevertheless reasonable arguments. And I of course read a number of posts that agreed with me or thought along the same lines as me. What I want to do, though, is focus on something I found intruiging. Something Teutomatos posted.

[Huey Lewis]

Eugene you read but don't understand : a possible scenario is : one day FM "classic" can stay as a game mode as promise by SI guys but no more improve(or minus improvement)....And all improvements will be target to the FMC version cause they will see that 95% of users will use only this mode.

That's the point of this thread....

Another possible scenario is aliens come down from space, take over all of SI and they produce Football Moonager instead, where you manage moons floating around space. Just because it could happen doesn't mean it will. Some of the points you've made in this thread are nothing short of wild speculation which have absolutely no basis of fact. I'm pretty certain they've said there are numerous improvements going in for FM completely unrelated to FMC - are they lying as another part of their grand scheme to put themselves out of business?

[WizbaII]

Despite Teutomatos' difficulty with English (and all talk of the PSP or any other console aside), I think I got the point of what he said. If players are not enjoying the "full fat" version, is it because they don't have time? Or is it because the main game isn't fun enough? I was intrigued by the question because I don't think the answer to that question is immediately obvious. I'll quote Jason the Yank here.

Jason the Yank: I expect I'll play the "full, fat" version. But when Miles said in the vlog "You might want to start studying up on tax rates," that to me explained why FMC was developed.

When I read that, the first thing I did was laugh for a good minute. But then I linked it to Teutomatos' post and couldn't help noticing how they fit together. Now I'm not saying that taxes shouldn't be in the game. I'm just saying, not many players are going to going to sleep thinking to themselves, "Good night's work! I got the player I wanted so badly thanks to my country having 15% lower tax rates!" I understand taxes are realistic, but is there nothing that could've been worked on except THAT? And while we're at it, should it be a requirement to have to do math in order to play the game? And what's more, the amount the player gets after tax should be right next to the wage negotiations, not at the BOTTOM. Why do you have to look in different places for information that's important?

Same with press conferences. It's not that I don't have time for it. It's that I don't get the point of some of it. Why does a reporter think that I will answer the question the second time if I didn't answer it the first time? Well, okay, in real life, I get it. But in a game, it doesn't make sense to get the same questions twice, or three times. It's not more "fun" to turn a question down three times, even if I now get to click "Passionate" when I'm doing it. It's not time consuming, either. It's mostly just pointless. And I think this might be what people have been asking for for a long time. They've probably been asking for fun, but not necessarily a FMC mode. Do I personally think FM is fun? Absolutetly, but not because of taxes or weird press conferences or anything like that.

So I would somewhat agree that the problem isn't that SI is trying to make money. I think the problem is that sometimes SI forgets that FM is not just a simulation, but also a game. And by the time they remember it's a game, they have to make FMC because the features all have "baggage" that are supposed to make things fun by being realistic, but also take things a bit too far. And I think Teutomatos and Jason the Yank were both getting at this.

If you look at FIFA Manager (I can't believe I'm saying this), one of the things they do to compensate for their lack of depth is to keep things as fun as possible. They don't use features to add fun, they make the whole experience fun. From the moment you turn on their game and the music is already playing, you're having fun. And they use lots of colors to keep the mood "light". And videos play whenever you achieve something or before a big match. And so on. Not saying SI should do this, but just pointing out that FIFA Manager never forgets to look at "fun". And I would also agree that the UI needs to continue to improve--having things in the right place makes a big difference as to whether or not certain features get used and to what extent. Again, just some thoughts. They might be right or wrong but I'd love to hear opinions on it.

Anyway, to get back to the point of this thread, I, like others, will be interested to see how often this FMC feature actually gets used. I suspect that if FM can be played on things like iPads (not sure if this is the case or not), then it might be used quite often. And I understand that some veterans might rightly see some value in FMC to, I guess, make the most of so little time. But I also suspect most of us will still enjoy FM the way we enjoy our women--or men, as the case may be: full and fat (but not TOO fat). Because at the end of the day, it's still a great game.

[theboydonegood]

I am one of those that have been asking for this for a while:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/262638-My-super-simple-idea-for-FM2012-Result-Only-button?highlight=result

[Smurf]

Eugene you read but don't understand : a possible scenario is : one day FM "classic" can stay as a game mode as promise by SI guys but no more improve(or minus improvement)....And all improvements will be target to the FMC version cause they will see that 95% of users will use only this mode.

That's the point of this thread....

You don't seem to understand, for the billionth time (that's 1,000,000,000) times this has been said.

SI have said that it won't happen.

Who do I believe? I believe the makers of the game.

Or I could believe the wild speculation from users of the game that have (absolutely zero) idea of how the production of the game works.

Anything you've said about the production of the game has been complete speculation.

Another possible scenario is aliens come down from space, take over all of SI and they produce Football Moonager instead, where you manage moons floating around space. Just because it could happen doesn't mean it will. Some of the points you've made in this thread are nothing short of wild speculation which have absolutely no basis of fact. I'm pretty certain they've said there are numerous improvements going in for FM completely unrelated to FMC - are they lying as another part of their grand scheme to put themselves out of business?

I would definitely buy this game!!!

[Keyzer Soze]

Thanks, you give me right of my post from 11:37.....what you describe, it's far from a classical FM game. So you can understand why some people are afraid to see FM moving to another type of game in the next few years. It was a chess game in the future it will be draughts.

I dont think i've give you any rights with my post. In fact i dont agree with what you say.

The fact that FM will have a boost in sells due to FMC, dont give me the chills about the future of the game. In fact, it's something that it's wonderful because this extra money can be used to ensure the future of the game.

I dont believe, unlike you, that the release of FMC as divided SI HQ and because of that fewer people/money were spend in FM. The same was said about FML and the game keep going and envolving.

But we've got to face the facts... Games must envolve, because the market also evolve.

Why do you think 2D graphics were implemented in FM? Because it was important to attract newer players, players that look and the old FM with only commentaries and didn't like it. The same with 3D graphics.

FMC is a new way to play the game. A quicker way, probably a easier way. And why SI/SEGA decided to implement the module? Well, again because the of market needs.

Now, despite SI/SEGA trying to reach new players, new markets, that doesn't mean that they will neglect the "older players". Why? Well because we are the solid foundation of FM, and because The fully fat FM will be played by many players that will start at FMC. I trully believe that FMC will be like a "big tutorial game" to many new users: after a while, they will want to try the "big game" and after that it's hard to go back.

So imagine:

1) FMC will attract new users

2) After a while those new FMC players will want to play the full fat game

3) When they get a little older, they'll go back to FMC

Football Manager from 8 to 80 yo. What do you want more?

[milnerpoint]

If you look at FIFA Manager (I can't believe I'm saying this), one of the things they do to compensate for their lack of depth is to keep things as fun as possible. They don't use features to add fun, they make the whole experience fun. From the moment you turn on their game and the music is already playing, you're having fun. And they use lots of colors to keep the mood "light". And videos play whenever you achieve something or before a big match. And so on. Not saying SI should do this, but just pointing out that FIFA Manager never forgets to look at "fun". And I would also agree that the UI needs to continue to improve--having things in the right place makes a big difference as to whether or not certain features get used and to what extent. Again, just some thoughts. They might be right or wrong but I'd love to hear opinions on it.

Yes but the second you press start, you quickly forget the fancy music and UI and remember its actually a terrible game. So all the "fun" it tries to create is lost in terrible game play. There is no point in looking fun, if your actually boring, shallow, and frustrating to use.

[Kenco]

Despite Teutomatos' difficulty with English (and all talk of the PSP or any other console aside), I think I got the point of what he said. If players are not enjoying the "full fat" version, is it because they don't have time? Or is it because the main game isn't fun enough?

The majority of posts I've read are from people who don't have time, so cutting out some of the non-essential stuff makes sense. People who don't enjoy it will simply stop playing and do something else.

[Keyzer Soze]

The majority of posts I've read are from people who don't have time, so cutting out some of the non-essential stuff makes sense. People who don't enjoy it will simply stop playing and do something else.

This is not 100% right.

There are people who dont enjoy FM because they think it's too complex that may enjoy FMC.

[Smurf]

This is not 100% right.

There are people who dont enjoy FM because they think it's too complex that may enjoy FMC.

And the fact that I play FM for roughly 14 hour stints. If I can't play the entire day I don't play it at all. For instance, I got home at 10 a.m. last night and wanted to play FM. But I knew if I started I'd be playing it until stupid o'clock in the morning.

Having a FMC save where I can spend a few hours perhaps with challenges etc. is very welcome to me.

[spankie]

The majority of posts I've read are from people who don't have time, so cutting out some of the non-essential stuff makes sense. People who don't enjoy it will simply stop playing and do something else.

Which was the position I was in for FM12 and FM11. The grinding of the game got boring as it looked like I was hardly making any progress because of the limited amount of time I could devote to playing FM. Trust me, it's no fun playing for a month or more and only getting through a single season.

Because SI have developed FMC I am actually buying the game this year, without FMC I was going to give it a miss. I am sure that a lot of other people would have been in the same boat.

Now that FMC is a viable option those people may actually buy the game and that should see a boost in sales.

A boost in sales mean more money going into the pot to pay for more improvements to the game in the future.

If FMC isn't a success and sales suffer because of it then I'm sure that SI will quickly drop the game mode, but to be honest I can't see that happening.

Because of Steam I suspect that SI can more or less see how many people play the full fat FM and how many play FMC. That will give them an idea about the success and help them plan future development of both FM and FMC.

[Keyzer Soze]

And the fact that I play FM for roughly 14 hour stints. If I can't play the entire day I don't play it at all. For instance, I got home at 10 a.m. last night and wanted to play FM. But I knew if I started I'd be playing it until stupid o'clock in the morning.

Having a FMC save where I can spend a few hours perhaps with challenges etc. is very welcome to me.

Of course.

My point was... apart from the obvious target people (people without time to play the fully fat version)... FMC can attract many more people because it's a simplier version... and this is something that is very good for SI and for Football Manager.

[milnerpoint]

I wasnt going to use FMC on my own, but speaking to mates and we think it will be great for multi player games, its like pulling teeth playing FM with someone else as it takes twice as long to get through everything, FMC cuts a lot of the crap out, so we will look at playing together again.

[Smurf]

Of course.

My point was... apart from the obvious target people (people without time to play the fully fat version)... FMC can attract many more people because it's a simplier version... and this is something that is very good for SI and for Football Manager.

I was just offering another scenario

Actually I was quite frustrated that I couldn't play FM last night. I was thinking that if I had FMC right then I would have definitely played it.

I'm really looking forward to FM13.

And I was on the fence about buying FM13 right at the start, and was considering waiting for the patch in February/March after the transfer window closed.

But I'm wholeheartedly set on getting FM13 on release day - and one of the key reasons is the FMC mode.

[Kenco]

I'm in a similar boat Eugene, I probably wouldn't buy FM13 if it was just the full fat game, not because I've gone off the game or anything but I'm enjoying a FM12 game and an update doesn't interest me right now. But the option of FMC gives me something new and I'm very intrigued by it.

Haven't pre-ordered though, will wait until I see what others have to say on here before I buy. Can't wait visit the forums on the 19th!

[Smurf]

I'm just going to be buy the game when it's released on 2 November and make my own mind up.

Not to be cynical or anything, but I wouldn't count some of the posts on these forums as reliable feedback.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Thanks, you give me right of my post from 11:37.....what you describe, it's far from a classical FM game. So you can understand why some people are afraid to see FM moving to another type of game in the next few years. It was a chess game in the future it will be draughts.

Actually FM 13 is a complete chess set, with and additional set of draughts.

[dogs]

good points on this thread and a lot of **** poor weak analogy s as-well

FMC is 100% not for me and i have a busy family life mixed with work.

I will play FM the way i know it , and if that makes me a bit anal so be it

I personally think an instant result button will be crap lol understand this just my personal thoughts....

[Neil Brock]

I'm pretty much ready to close this now as it's just going round in complete circles.

[Kenco]

I'm just going to be buy the game when it's released on 2 November and make my own mind up.

Not to be cynical or anything, but I wouldn't count some of the posts on these forums as reliable feedback.

Oh I won't be taking anyone's opinions seriously, just waiting so I can get a few facts confirmed.

[grep]

I already bought the game. Like every year from 1993. I support SI for long time. But i also can be critic if something is not goin in the right way. fMC is ok, but nothing new. They just speed the game for people who dont have time.

I want to see list of 900 new features. Anyone ?? I just hope match engine is not the same + ball physics.

Same here. I have already pre ordered the game just like I am used to do since some years. Just for this reason I feel I am entitled to critic if something IMO has been dumbed down too much, just for example the training system like Matej has pointed out.

I can even understand that this thread is going in a loop so I am not against closing it, it would be better anyway if, despite the closing, this thread would have left something to think about, SI. I also think it is not just a loop to fill the time before the release it is something more and it should deserve a bit of attention for its contents.

[SmurfDude]

I'm pretty much ready to close this now as it's just going round in complete circles.

A good idea I think. In my mind it's as simple as:

If you like the full FM experience, play it.

If you want a quicker more streamlined FM, play FMC.

Everyone's a winner.

The end.

[FrazT]

A good idea I think. In my mind it's as simple as:

If you like the full FM experience, play it.

If you want a quicker more streamlined FM, play FMC.

Everyone's a winner.

The end.

As this sums up the whole discussion pretty accurately I will close this now as it has run its course.