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My growing disapointment with every new version of FM

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I couldn't care less if there are no major changes each year. I love FM and more of the same but with some improvements and updated database each year suits me just fine. Think of it as a yearly subscription that costs £20-30, it's peanuts

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I couldn't care less if there are no major changes each year. I love FM and more of the same but with some improvements and updated database each year suits me just fine. Think of it as a yearly subscription that costs £20-30, it's peanuts

Im pretty much exactly the same as you, i couldnt really care less, ill buy it because i love the game, not because it has something shinny and new.

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Same here.

Quite a lot of people here appear to be getting somewhat wound up about is at the end of the day, just a video game.

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Not wound up, just expressing some views about the game. Like I said I've pre-ordered the game and will continue to do so but just wanted to give my opinion on something that I spend way to much time playing.

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I didn't like the feel of FM9 or 10 and didn't buy 11 and mainly played FM8 for 4 years - FM12 was pretty good IMO and FM13 has actually got me excited for a version for the first time in about 10 years

Don't get why people slag off the game when they haven't even played it yet - save your opinions until about December time :)

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I think we should all just wait and see what fm2013 brings to the table and let us

judge from their.

Personally I feel very curious about some of the new features,

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Most gamers here are aiming for some minimalistic goal, such as taking 4th division club to the Premiere League (Premiere League is garbage to begin with, the players have no skill, no technique, no footballing-IQ and understanding whatsoever, if you are paid huge amount of money to put a ball inside the net, you might as well have to do it CORRECTLY, like Spain did against Italy 3 months ago) .

A person actually built a perfect city with Sim City 3000.

[video=youtube;JtB2ZfVuLhY]

I've set my goal in finding the perfect formation and its corresponding strategy, the perfect balance between defense and attack, ball retention, fluid attack-defense transition. So far, it hasn't been disappointing. I play with Real.

bbva1920.png

I'll probably patent this formation and strategy, and sell to Barcelona , because they know nothing about defensive work.

OK, i'm probably exaggerating a little bit, you won't attend West Point and apply for military tactician major, after winning in StarCraft II against a South Korean, you probably won't start your own coaching career after taking your team to the very top in this game, but it boosts your self-esteem , knowing deep down inside that you have the potential to be a world class manager.

Dumbest post i've ever seen. has nothing to do with topic, and then a screenshot of madrid in 2020 my god.

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Dumbest post i've ever seen. has nothing to do with topic, and then a screenshot of madrid in 2020 my god.

If you want a laugh, read his other posts (there's only 14 of them). All completely ridiculous and he's now been banned. And he's also a cheat.

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[...]

I'd actually rather they released FM every two years and just worked on loads of improvements. That being said, won't happen because selling a new game obviously makes more money :).

I wouldn't mind if they started releasing the game every 2 years, and have extra time for developing. It would give them more breathing room and take a step back to look at the series and get a new perspective. It could lead to more creativity and they would have more time to implement new ideas.

In the meanwhile they could bring out DLC's. In the off-year they could bring out the new season update, with all the database changes. They could bring out DLC's with club logo's and player profiles. Maybe some extra countries or leagues. Etc.

I mostly buy a new version of FM solely for the new season data update. Although I ofcourse love all the new features that get added, I don't really need it each version, not so much as I need the new season info. They would not gain so much money with such a DLC, but it would also cost a lot less to produce I asume. And I really like my club logo's and facepacks just as much as my new classes or hats that I get in other games DLC's. So they could garner some nice extra income from that. Or atleast they could now afford to buy all the rights for these with the money.

As an example: A new full FM game costs me around €50 (£40) in the Netherlands. I would love to pay €15-20 just for a season update DLC. And about €5-10 for a full logo's and facepack.

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Dumbest post i've ever seen. has nothing to do with topic, and then a screenshot of madrid in 2020 my god.

Exactly my thoughts when I read this post.

What a strange assembly of random stuff.

@OP: couldn't have said it better, very well written post and pretty much sums up how I feel every time I see one of these new "features".

But well at least this isn't FIFA manager where 90% of the new "features" are just cosmetics.

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But well at least this isn't FIFA manager where 90% of the new "features" are just cosmetics.

Or the Barbie Make Up Game, where 100% of new features are cosmetics.

(Sorry).

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Do any of you watch or read anything they have given us about this game? The match engine has been re-worked!! 2 years worth of re-working!!

Honestly.

What exactly did they change with the match engine?

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Do any of you watch or read anything they have given us about this game? The match engine has been re-worked!! 2 years worth of re-working!!

Honestly.

You're in GD. Most of the users don't even know how to use a spoon, let alone read.

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You're in GD. Most of the users don't even know how to use a spoon, let alone read.

Tiring of this type of response- last warning

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Tiring of this type of response- last warning

About time. He seems to be trying to start an argument in what has generally been a good thread.

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Tiring of this type of response- last warning

It wasn't an entirely serious response.

But come on, it's not like i don't have a point. In this thread there are some very decent comments from people who don't totally like what they are seeing in the FM13 vblogs, and they are right to air their views in a constructive manner.

Then there are others making nonsensical statements about not seeing things to their liking (regarding transfers, loans, the ME, etc) that have actually been mentioned in the vblogs.

If people are going to complain, atleast watch the vblogs and read the announcements so you know what you're talking about.

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Or the Barbie Make Up Game, where 100% of new features are cosmetics.

(Sorry).

:lol:

True.

Maybe "graphical changes" would have been the better expression.

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If people are going to complain, atleast watch the vblogs and read the announcements so you know what you're talking about.

Re: transfers and AI squad building.

There's exactly ONE mention of transfers being "more realistic" ant it has a lot to do with the brand new "playing philosophy", meaning AI clubs will now look for players whose attributes fit the playing style of the club/manager.

It's an improvement, but it's not a guarantee it'll solve other issues...

E.g. Barça could STILL waste good money on one of those awful newgens with 18 Flair, Free Kicks and First Touch, regardless of his suckitude in other key areas (ie. Mental and Physical traits), provided the PA/PPA is high enough.

And that's no other word about AI managers not switching clubs every other year, or about AI managers not signing five wingers in a wingless formation...

About transfers and loans, no word about reputation not being a deal-breaking issue... We can just hope the new DoF role and the broader scope of options for loans and transfers is a solution to the issues.

But I still maintain SI should have made a bigger deal of such tweaks if they're actually going to be in the game... a nice little video about "Solved Issues pending from 2012" woudl have been nice

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I haven't spent time playing the recent iterations. I've hardly put time in for years to be honest. It's easy to criticise the game as the reason we stopped enjoying it as much but the truth is we have probably spent too much time on the game and got burnt out. I can think of a number of features that I'm not too keen on but that is down to me not having the time and patience to enjoy them. I have spent many many hours on CM then FM and was well rewarded for the little money I put it in. I'm not sure there is any other game that is such good value for money. Some fans of the game just aren't aware of when it is time to move on or take a break.

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Good post from OP, even if I have differing opinions.

Incremental changes to FM are what is needed now. Someone has already pointed out further up here that there is no major feature lacking now - compare where we are now with 10 years ago - we've had the huge introduction of the 2-D match engine, then 3-D representation. The press have been brought in. Actual boardroom conversations. Team talks. Contract variation. Training has been completely overhauled at least once.

And how many years have these boards been full of people complaining that SI should stop introducing more new things, and should in fact focus on getting the current features right? That was clear to see in the responses to CM01/02 and CM4 as well - one of them did little more than consolidate all of the current features, while the other promised revolutionary changes. The latter hasn't quite earned the same sense of nostalgia as the former.

So what is wrong with each yearly release improving their current features? Clearing out the problems, tidying up the code, and adding more variation will make each release just that little more playable until they can work out the next huge step to take. Maybe they are working on a major overhaul of some feature or other, but they all take a lot of time to get right for release. Maybe they're waiting until the average PC is more powerful so that they can implement far more analytical and "intelligent" AI. Who knows? Given that SI have expanded over the last year, it hardly seems as though they're planning to just rest on their laurels.

As some perspective, this is what wikipedia listed as the improvements made for CM01/02:

Championship Manager 01/02 implemented the new EU regulated transfer system, introduced in September 2001, and also featured a new attribute masking mode, whereby the player could only see information about footballers he/she would realistically know about (also known as a fog of war).

Other new additions included the ability to send players away for surgery, player notes, player comparisons, and improved media and board interaction.

Slow progress is hardly new to the series.

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I think sometimes some people forget SI are a company, not our best friend. You dont run a company by releasing a promo video highlighting everything thats perceeved to be wrong with your product. Its bad buisness.

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SI is doing the things correctly, they catalog the requests and each version they implement some of them. It's not a good idea change many things on a single version, otherwise there a big risk of SI isn't capable of release a yearly version, because change many things at once can cause bugs and consequent delays or releases with too many bugs, in worst case scenario.

That's why Championship Manager start losing to Football Manager, on their first version without partnership because there were too many bugs, but FM 2008 had a solid release taking a huge advantage. Due that, Championship Manager is almost dead and Football Manager is alive.

Each version there's always solid improvements, players roles, match preparation, backroom advice, the press conferences, the speaking tonne, team comparison, etc. On FM2013 we will have challenges, FMC, sports director, staff roles, etc. Another good set of improvements.

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Good post from OP, even if I have differing opinions.

Incremental changes to FM are what is needed now. Someone has already pointed out further up here that there is no major feature lacking now - compare where we are now with 10 years ago - we've had the huge introduction of the 2-D match engine, then 3-D representation. The press have been brought in. Actual boardroom conversations. Team talks. Contract variation. Training has been completely overhauled at least once.

And how many years have these boards been full of people complaining that SI should stop introducing more new things, and should in fact focus on getting the current features right? That was clear to see in the responses to CM01/02 and CM4 as well - one of them did little more than consolidate all of the current features, while the other promised revolutionary changes. The latter hasn't quite earned the same sense of nostalgia as the former.

So what is wrong with each yearly release improving their current features? Clearing out the problems, tidying up the code, and adding more variation will make each release just that little more playable until they can work out the next huge step to take. Maybe they are working on a major overhaul of some feature or other, but they all take a lot of time to get right for release. Maybe they're waiting until the average PC is more powerful so that they can implement far more analytical and "intelligent" AI. Who knows? Given that SI have expanded over the last year, it hardly seems as though they're planning to just rest on their laurels.

As some perspective, this is what wikipedia listed as the improvements made for CM01/02:

Slow progress is hardly new to the series.

Hey man thanks for your comments. I do agree that finding big features to implement is getting harder due to the fact that the game is pretty much perfect, I ultimately that the new features are never enough. For FM13 they have said that they have added tone to the press conferences which means that SI have recognised that they need improving but just adding tone options isn't enough. Maybe adding things like having your own players participating in press conferences (might be a problem due to licencing...) would help spice them up a little. I do understand that slow progress has been FM's way for many years but is that a good thing? To me a new announcement of an FM doesn't feel me excitement. I pretty much know what they will be adding, along with a few surprises and I am always a little disappointed by the exaggeration of the claims of the new features. Maybe I am being too demanding? They do only have a year to produce the game and don't have the biggest team. When it comes to ideas I am awful and while I do agree with you maybe tweaking rather than evolving is better for FM, I would like some more substantial tweaks that what we have been getting in recent years.

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I think sometimes some people forget SI are a company, not our best friend. You dont run a company by releasing a promo video highlighting everything thats perceeved to be wrong with your product. Its bad buisness.

Is it bad business not saying whether or not you fixed, say, the leaky plumbing system while boasting about fancy curtains, shiny doorknobs and a new doorbell? ;)

To me that's what SI have been doing... promoting interesting, but ultimetely non-core and non-vital, features while being oddly silent on more important and basic aspects of the game which have been under scrutiny for years.

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You would never advertise that you fixed the leaky plumbing system you installed tho, just like BT dont advertise that the exchanges they use cannot cope with the broadband service they are providing, but they do say something like "we're installing hundreds of new cabnets to increase the speed of our service".

You dont advertise your faults, or bring attention to them, no business does unless under extreme situations.

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After reading this thread in its entirity before commenting and watching the vblogs, I have to say that the improvements announced so far are needed, in my opinion. Like finally making use of Directors of Foootball to take charge of contract negotiations to leave you concentrating on other aspects, I like the idea of handing over a shopping list and waiting to see who arrives.

My main plus though is the FMC, for the last few seasons I have been in limbo about buying the next in the series due to time restraints has I have been getting older an can't afford to sit in my room and play FM all day. So just when I thought my time was up an I'd have to revert back to previous less immersive FMs, SI pull FMC out of the draw, so a big thumbs up from me.

I understand the feeling regarding the 3D animations, whilst I welcomed the 2D with open arms because I wanted to see me tactics in motion and I wanted to see my players 35 yrd wonder strike. I have to admit I was sceptical about the 3D I thought there was no point in it, I had the 2D is enough, 2D is all we need attitude. I didn't use the 3D in the first year because I was against it, but after my feelings about the 3D softened I decided to watch 1 game on extended highlights and I got hooked, admitedly it's not perfect like players turning around in a circle on the spot before putting the ball out of play but thats why I love it to be honest, the little imperfections are what make it for me. It frustrates me, I shout at the screen call my players idiots at times and I oh an arh at the screen when the ball flies wide from a 30 yrd effort. In some strange way it makes me feel like I'm in the ground.

I have recently moved due to work and I couldn't bring my computer with me, so I have had to buy a bog standard laptop which on a small database with on England and down to League 2 loaded only gives me a 2 star estimated game speed, so 3D is deffinatley off the menu and I have to admit I miss watching the games in 3D.

I understand why some say its not important because in a way its not because its just a representation of whats going on but on the other hand it is important to others to get that feeling of being in the crowd watching your favourite team. I have to admit I often do when I'm not managing them and I havent got a game, it confuses the hell out of the press but hey its my game.

On conclusion I can now look forward to every release of the game now FMC is being introduced and I hope in time it will allow more then 3 leagues to be loaded, but atleast they have acknowledged us older generation that don't have the time to be fully immersed in what is by and far the best game I have ever bought.

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I think a lot of people like to have full control over the game so things like DoF and the classic mode arnt going to interest people so take those away and the game hasnt really come on from the last 2 versions

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After reading this thread in its entirity before commenting and watching the vblogs, I have to say that the improvements announced so far are needed, in my opinion. Like finally making use of Directors of Foootball to take charge of contract negotiations to leave you concentrating on other aspects, I like the idea of handing over a shopping list and waiting to see who arrives.

My main plus though is the FMC, for the last few seasons I have been in limbo about buying the next in the series due to time restraints has I have been getting older an can't afford to sit in my room and play FM all day. So just when I thought my time was up an I'd have to revert back to previous less immersive FMs, SI pull FMC out of the draw, so a big thumbs up from me.

I understand the feeling regarding the 3D animations, whilst I welcomed the 2D with open arms because I wanted to see me tactics in motion and I wanted to see my players 35 yrd wonder strike. I have to admit I was sceptical about the 3D I thought there was no point in it, I had the 2D is enough, 2D is all we need attitude. I didn't use the 3D in the first year because I was against it, but after my feelings about the 3D softened I decided to watch 1 game on extended highlights and I got hooked, admitedly it's not perfect like players turning around in a circle on the spot before putting the ball out of play but thats why I love it to be honest, the little imperfections are what make it for me. It frustrates me, I shout at the screen call my players idiots at times and I oh an arh at the screen when the ball flies wide from a 30 yrd effort. In some strange way it makes me feel like I'm in the ground.

I have recently moved due to work and I couldn't bring my computer with me, so I have had to buy a bog standard laptop which on a small database with on England and down to League 2 loaded only gives me a 2 star estimated game speed, so 3D is deffinatley off the menu and I have to admit I miss watching the games in 3D.

I understand why some say its not important because in a way its not because its just a representation of whats going on but on the other hand it is important to others to get that feeling of being in the crowd watching your favourite team. I have to admit I often do when I'm not managing them and I havent got a game, it confuses the hell out of the press but hey its my game.

On conclusion I can now look forward to every release of the game now FMC is being introduced and I hope in time it will allow more then 3 leagues to be loaded, but atleast they have acknowledged us older generation that don't have the time to be fully immersed in what is by and far the best game I have ever bought.

It's nice to get a view from someone who is looking forwards to the classic side this year and to get their views as I am on the other end of the spectrum. I am a little disappointed that FMC is one of the biggest improvements to this years game as I have no interest in it as I love to throw myself into the game and do as much as I possibly can. But I am being selfish here as I know a lot of people will find it a great addition to the game. I feel that same with the director feature. I understand that it is completely optional but I don't like the fact SI is giving the player more options to automate their experience. Surely some of the best parts of the game are trying to negotiate with players and buy them? I'm not sure how it is going to work but is the director always going to get the best deal or will it be better to negotiate yourself? For me, I would like to see some more features like improving AI squad building over time and increased tactical options rather than more automated options and the network side of the game (although an improvement to this was long overdue). But as I said before, I am being selfish with this as these are features that would benefit me and may not be favourable for other people.

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You would never advertise that you fixed the leaky plumbing system you installed tho, just like BT dont advertise that the exchanges they use cannot cope with the broadband service they are providing, but they do say something like "we're installing hundreds of new cabnets to increase the speed of our service".

You dont advertise your faults, or bring attention to them, no business does unless under extreme situations.

Fair enough, I don't expect SI to bluntly state "AI managers finally don't suck as much as they did before", but AT LEAST one one of those business-like ways to make the message clear to those able to read between the lines.

Like your BT example, a "we have improved/expanded the criteria AI managers use to evaluate their potential signings"... even a passing mention... I completely understnad the need to put emphasis on FMC, DoF and other "in your face" features.

AI planning is something that becomes an issue only after 5-6 years of gameplay, mostly in lower/smaller leagues. You can safely play a top-level EPL career for a solid decade without having much problems. But hell if there's been even a slight tweak, why having the long-term careers aficionados to find out after N hours of gameplay?

Tell us... we'd buy it anyway. Probably...

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It's nice to get a view from someone who is looking forwards to the classic side this year and to get their views as I am on the other end of the spectrum. I am a little disappointed that FMC is one of the biggest improvements to this years game as I have no interest in it as I love to throw myself into the game and do as much as I possibly can. But I am being selfish here as I know a lot of people will find it a great addition to the game. I feel that same with the director feature. I understand that it is completely optional but I don't like the fact SI is giving the player more options to automate their experience. Surely some of the best parts of the game are trying to negotiate with players and buy them? I'm not sure how it is going to work but is the director always going to get the best deal or will it be better to negotiate yourself? For me, I would like to see some more features like improving AI squad building over time and increased tactical options rather than more automated options and the network side of the game (although an improvement to this was long overdue). But as I said before, I am being selfish with this as these are features that would benefit me and may not be favourable for other people.

I wouldn't say your being selfish, your being an FM fan, like every FM fan your passionate about the game and the good thing about the game is that it can be played in different ways by different people i.e. sending Assistants to Press Conferences or doing them yourself etc.. The way you have put your opinion across and listened (read) other peoples has been impecable, you haven't jumped down anyones throat for having a different opinion on what they see has important aspects of the game.

Don't get me wrong whilst I am happy with the additions to FM13, I to would like a better ME, better AI squad building and tactical improvements, even more so with the FMC because this will allow players to most probably play further into the game than they have done before due to the more automated processes. If the AI squad building is still below par then more players will become aware of the short fall.

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There have been some very interesting points raised in this thread so far about how the game moves forward. I wouldn't be against the idea of a release every two years to allow a longer development if SI felt it necessary - I didn't really take to FM11 so kept playing FM10 instead for an extra year and really enjoyed having a much longer career than I normally would. As others have pointed out though, it's probably a non-starter for financial reasons. On the whole, I feel that the game is in a good place and the fact that there are currently only incremental changes needed reflects that. I have to say that i haven't really experienced some of the issues that others have mentioned on this thread, maybe I have just been lucky with my career or not picked up on them. Maybe I would feel differently if I had.

For me, the one significant thing that could be changed to improve the game would be to be able to run the game with all leagues and all players available, while running at a reasonable pace. I don't know enough about programming and processing speeds to know if there it is a way that the game could ever allow that but I suspect not. I used to love playing Sensible World of Soccer on the Amiga back in the 90s and one of the great things about it was that you could sign anyone and also get job offers from any team in any league. You obviously can't compare the games in terms of level of detail or complexity (in SWOS for example, your team was the only one that ever signed anyone!) but being able to have a truly global career was great. It would be great in FM to be able to start a career and be able to move anywhere, to any league would be great. It would also lead to better long-term careers as all leagues would be properly simulated and nations could go through revivals or slumps based on youth production and/or league reputation. No more playing teams in European qualifying matches years into the game where the don't have a single proper player, real or regen.

As I said, I don't know if this is really possible and if it were, it would probably take a long time to achieve. Would it be a case of SI taking a couple of years to redo things and optimise everthing or is it just a case of waiting for PCs to reach the stage where the are powerful enough to cope with it? For now, back in the real world, I'm looking forward to seeing how SI's latest tweaks will improve the game. I'll continue to enjoy playing the game and squeezing in as many leagues and players as my PC can cope with!

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Am I the only one here who still plays the games on 'Only Commentary'?

No, I think there are still a fair few of us. I tried both 2D and 3D, but I always end up going back to Commentary Only.

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Honestly, I'd much prefer that SI continue to release well-considered incremental improvements each release, rather than try to come up with some flashy new feature that doesn't really serve the game. Recent changes like 'career-mode' (adding/removing leagues on the fly) and dynamic league reputation have been significant, even though not every FM player uses them. The same will be true for FM13's 'Classic' mode. Clearly that is the development focus of this iteration, and even though I'll probably never use it, I'm 100% fine with that decision and have happily pre-ordered. The reason it gets little love around here is because it is not aimed at the core forum audience here who are still playing the game regularly, but those who stopped playing from earlier versions.

Let's compare the new features of FM13 with what EA has pulled with the Wii version of FIFA13. Literally the same game, with updated rosters and kits. For full price.

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No, I think there are still a fair few of us. I tried both 2D and 3D, but I always end up going back to Commentary Only.

Same here - always played with commentary only and always will - the only way you can play a long term (30-40 season) save IMO

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Very few people buy cars because of how good the engine is, most buy them because they look pretty, they do the basics of what they want, and it's something to talk to their mates about.

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I've been getting bored with fm games since fm11 , mostly due to the fact that games would take to long with the major problems being media questions taking up to much time and being repetitive.

I've always wondered why the media questions could not be narrowed down to just one big question that could effect morale and team performance or not have any effect at all after all most of the questions were just pointless anyway.

this years fm looks promising with the classic mode which might get me back into it.

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Just to say I mostly agree with the OP. I've always thought if they took 2 years to release a new game instead of the yearly update then they could put more effort in the game and make a massive change rather than the 'tweaks' we mostly get. They could still make money in the interim by releasing transfer packs in January / August (and not letting anyone else do this for free somehow).

That way they could then release the game at the start of a season which I've always wanted to as well.

I will probably pass on Fm13 (except the classic mode is making me want it...)but I will definitely get FM14 - I always buy every other game.

Having said all of that, SI are doing just the same as fifa / pro evo / any other sports game in releasing yearly updates.

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Just to say I mostly agree with the OP. I've always thought if they took 2 years to release a new game instead of the yearly update then they could put more effort in the game and make a massive change rather than the 'tweaks' we mostly get. They could still make money in the interim by releasing transfer packs in January / August (and not letting anyone else do this for free somehow).

That way they could then release the game at the start of a season which I've always wanted to as well.

I will probably pass on Fm13 (except the classic mode is making me want it...)but I will definitely get FM14 - I always buy every other game.

Having said all of that, SI are doing just the same as fifa / pro evo / any other sports game in releasing yearly updates.

By buying the game every other version, aren't you getting two years worth of development on the game anyway? Why do you think the development cycle would be any different if they didn't release every year?

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By buying the game every other version, aren't you getting two years worth of development on the game anyway?
Yes I am getting two years of development by buying every other time. However if the developers knew they had two years as well - wouldn't it affect the development cycle and what they believed they could achieve with 2 years solid rather than 1 and then 1 and then 1 and so on....
Why do you think the development cycle would be any different if they didn't release every year?
I'm not saying it definitely would - I'm saying it 'might'. I'm not a developer, but I know if I was I'd want as much time as possible to make my game awesome, rather than yearly updates purely for sales. Look at Blizzard for example....the games ready when it's ready....

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The development cycle would be different is they released every other year. There would be less money coming into the coffers at SI towers and so less money being spent on development and the game would not have improved as much as it would have with yearly releases.

I doubt very much that the sales figures will be that much higher if SI release a new FM every 2 years then they are when they release every year. SI would have to effectively sell double the number of copies in order to get the same amount of money to invest in development.

Releasing a transfer update every 6 months would not be a good idea. SI couldn't charge as much for a transfer update, especially as the transfer update would not include any new features because the new features wouuld ahve to wait for a full FM release. Also the editor is a very important feature to the game to enable people to make their own changes. If SI did transfer updates they would have to disable that completely and even then there is the possibility of someone cracking the database and release software that edited it, e.g. FMRTE and similar programs.

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Look at Blizzard for example....the games ready when it's ready....

I take it you have never played Warcraft then?

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I think sometimes some people forget SI are a company, not our best friend. You dont run a company by releasing a promo video highlighting everything thats perceeved to be wrong with your product. Its bad buisness.

True, but you don't keep your customers by failing to fix, year after year, things that are seen as not working by those customers.

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I respect the first post and what is being said here, because there have been grumbles elsewhere made in a far less productive tone.

However I do still feel a lot of these concerns being expressed in this thread lack pragmatism. I am not going to defend a game I haven't played yet any more than I am going to criticise it (although for the sake of honesty I am personally very excited).

SI presumably face a number of limitations that are being missed here. First of all this board is going to make up a tiny core of hardcore players - the other substantial numbers of buyers will not want change. Change is bad. Look at CoD. Lack of change is good for business! But seriously, you aren't going to alienate your market if you are a dominate market force - SI aren't indie developers. That said I still feel the raft of changes such as network mode and FMC make this new game rather exciting.

There are other practicalities. I would like a fully 3D engine with animated interactions with my players, an interactive point and click board room with RTE. I would like a 1080p UI that sparkles line the sun. I would like to play a game with every player from every country ever loaded. But most people play on laptops. The game is going to be held back by this so most of the tweaks will be relatively unglamorous.

The thing that makes FM so great is the depth - there are thousands of players that are scouted out by a network of scouts. Football clubs buy into this level of realism. This makes FM rather unique. Admittedly there is a base template there for every game, but each time we are talking about unprecedented levels of realism. Yeah I will probably grumble that John Ruddy's agility isn't as high as it should be but there is doubtless a cost in terms of time and money that is hard to acknowledge in terms of producing such a magnificent database - which probably also hinders rapid progress.

I like to talk about FM, the direction it takes and the quality of the end product but I do think it's a bit mad when our critique reaches a certain level as we forget ourselves - we aren't developers or video game businessmen (for the most part) and therefore just know less than SI do about why they have done what they have done. By all means judge the product and dismiss or enjoy it (I didn't play FM 09 it was an aberration of a game) but the kind of rhetoric that is "SI should be doing X by now because that's what we want" is a bit of a nonsense because you are free to take it or leave it.

Or apply to work for them!

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we forget ourselves - we aren't developers or video game businessmen (for the most part) and therefore just know less than SI do about why they have done what they have done

Good point man. Maybe I am expecting too much from SI every year when a game comes out and I know they all work very hard.

You talk about the depth of the game which, I agree, is pretty amazing but that is down to some brilliant volunteers who research their favourite teams and decide what stats to give them. I'm not particularly sure on how the information is passed along but if people like you and me are doing this for SI they are able to spend more time on the game. The amount of staff and players in the game are because of these people and not necessarily SI. Without these people do you think SI would be able to achieve the same depth without these? Even if they could the resources spent on doing this would hamper development of the game itself.

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I take it you have never played Warcraft then?
Depends which one. I've played Warcraft, Warcraft 2 TOD and Warcraft III, but not WOW.

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I'm not saying it definitely would - I'm saying it 'might'. I'm not a developer, but I know if I was I'd want as much time as possible to make my game awesome, rather than yearly updates purely for sales. Look at Blizzard for example....the games ready when it's ready....

The yearly updates are vital for the stability of the company.

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The yearly updates are vital for the stability of the company.
I never said they weren't.

What I was saying is that I think their would be benefits to doing it every 2 years.

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We're all individuals, for me, the amount of new features in FM2012 made me rush out to get the game, and I'm glad I did because I found it a better experience than the previous versions, if only incrementally so, the sheer volume of fun I get out of this game makes that increment worth something to me. From what I can see, FM2013 will be the same.

If the new features in FM2013 aren't for everyone, well, nobody's holding a gun to anybody's head to force them to buy it, and if people are feeling they're not getting their money's worth, than they should probably either wait for it to drop in price, or stick with the versions they have.

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