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tommonufc

FM13; those who aren't excited, why not?

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I used to spend all day at school waiting to rush home to load up the latest release of Football Manager, and even in recent years I couldn't wait to get my hands on the game after cooking the demo to death, but this year has to be the first where I'm not unduly bothered that there is an imminent release. On the whole I have not been entirely impressed with new features and generally not too excited by SI's promotion of FM13. I have come to the conclusion that I was expecting to much, and looking back over previous developments from year to year I can see this now. Whilst many of the new additions have their merit and undoubtedly add to the game, they just aren't ground-breaking enough for me and sadly not exciting me.

I have already made my purchase, taking up what seemed to be a value price, but now slightly regretting making the purchase so readily.

I don't feel as I am alone, and looking around some of the video podcast threads I see a quite (or not so quite) contingent of other members who aren't too enamored with what SI have produced this year; but why? What where you expecting that hasn't or yet been delivered? What do you wish SI had focused on?

I don't wish the tone within the thread to portray moaning cynicism, as that's no good to anyone, but whilst I'm determined FM13 will blow away albeit low expectations, I'd like to hear from others who share a similar standing to where I am at the moment.

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I am a bit, but i'm also apprehensive about some of the changes that have been made. I don't think the game needed a massive overhaul, but it sounds like it's been given a fairly meaty one.

I'm also not in the least bit bothered about the other "modes". If I wanted a game that was more like FIFA with rewards and the like, i'd play FIFA. So those parts of FM 13 are redundant to me.

One change i'm not looking forward to is the whole thing of a club telling you how they want you to play etc. Sorry, but that happens at very, very few clubs. Seems to be the case at Chelsea where Roman wants his team to play like Barca, but apart from that, I can't think of too many other examples. Certainly in this country. As manager, I reserve the right to have my team play how I see fit based on all sorts of things. The squad you inherit when you join a club being a huge one at first. If you join a club with a bunch of 32 year old, 13 stone, 6ft 4" monsters, it's not going to be massively practicle to force them to play a high tempo, quick passing game on the floor for example. I really worry that this feature might ruin the game in certain situations at certain clubs. I don't understand why it was added, because it's something that you very, very rarely see in real life.

Having said that, i'm happy that they've taken MY IDEA :D on board and done something with transfer deadline day. I'm very much looking forward to that.

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I lost the count of video blogs.. 16 maybe? 17? I've seen the pitch 2 times only. So all i have to ask is this simple question:

in this "Football Manager 2013", where it comes to football?

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Hi there,

As for me, i'm expecting a lot more from the match engine. The 3-d match engine has been around for quite sometime and it's about time that it looks impressive enough. It's the deciding factor for me.

As of now, the match engine shown has not been too impresive. For instance, on one occasion in the video, the ball was intended for one of the team-mates but it hit the back of another. On another occasion, a shot was taken and i'm not too sure what the goalkeeper did as suddenly the ball went out of play.

Until i'm pretty impressed with the match engine in the demo, i'm going to give FM13 a miss. Something which i've not done since CM days.

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Totally agree with you, but on the SI side, i have to say that the video has been told to be recorded long time ago, and in the meanwhile large modifications and improvements have been done. This is what they said, and this is what we hope.

I'm waiting for match engine videos here, but all we got is boring videos on interactions and media... blahh :)

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I am a bit, but i'm also apprehensive about some of the changes that have been made. I don't think the game needed a massive overhaul, but it sounds like it's been given a fairly meaty one.

I'm also not in the least bit bothered about the other "modes". If I wanted a game that was more like FIFA with rewards and the like, i'd play FIFA. So those parts of FM 13 are redundant to me.

One change i'm not looking forward to is the whole thing of a club telling you how they want you to play etc. Sorry, but that happens at very, very few clubs. Seems to be the case at Chelsea where Roman wants his team to play like Barca, but apart from that, I can't think of too many other examples. Certainly in this country. As manager, I reserve the right to have my team play how I see fit based on all sorts of things. The squad you inherit when you join a club being a huge one at first. If you join a club with a bunch of 32 year old, 13 stone, 6ft 4" monsters, it's not going to be massively practicle to force them to play a high tempo, quick passing game on the floor for example. I really worry that this feature might ruin the game in certain situations at certain clubs. I don't understand why it was added, because it's something that you very, very rarely see in real life.

Having said that, i'm happy that they've taken MY IDEA :D on board and done something with transfer deadline day. I'm very much looking forward to that.

I agree with you somewhat in terms of styles of play and board involvement. Towards the lower ends of football I doubt there is too much emphasis upon styles of play and philosophies when appointing a manager, where 'winning football' would hold greater importance; only when you get to the higher end of things will these factors be taken into account. I hold reservations on whether SI have just taken a rather heavy handed approach with this, and laid it out across every job you apply for within the game, when actual fact if your taking over Torquay mid-February, the chairman isn't going to tell you or expect you to tell him exactly the style of play you want to play, just that you are expected to keep the side up. Obviously, if your applying for the Barca job wanting to play defensive rigid football, their board aren't going to look to favourably - so I feel it could be a good addition to the game as long as it's used when needed, and not at every single club.

Whilst on this topic, I also hold reservations on the boards ability to determine what sort of football I'm playing. As two different entities, human and AI, we may agree on playing a nice passing game, but in reality there is no X or Y when it comes to football, there is a differing scale of how football is played, from Barcelona at one end, to a Stoke City at the other; and I can see me taking great exception when an AI board dictates to me what style of 'passing' football I should be playing, when I know full well what I'm up too, and they are just wrong. That worries me, the fact that the AI will all too easily interpret things the wrong way.

On the whole, looking at it subjectively, I look forward to being able to play the new game - but I just feel disappointing that there is no ground-breaking feature that will really change how I play the game. I can't see there being a whole new match engine, from which you will have to work up new tactics from, that will be the same old, same old I'm getting the impression - which is something that is most disappointing. Even more accurately than that, another year unable to play a mobile back three, or libero will drive me mad. Personally, I love the tactical side of football, but I'm bored to death with playing 442 or 433 variants within the game, which leads me to use less conventional tactics and set-ups, that test the match engine much more - and in doing so, ultimately end up disappointing due to the limits of an outdated ME.

I'd have liked one core feature of the game to be overhauled each year, and I feel the ME is in drastic need of that, so too the training model, as too the Tactics Creator. A lot of these features have been in the game for a long time, and have not evolved, and each year that they stay the same it's inevitably harder and harder to bring them up to where they should be. SI have switched up training this year, but I feel they have taken a step backwards to go forwards, and with the game being of annual release there isn't really time to class 2013 as a Mulligan when it comes to training. This will be another year that Tactics haven't progressed, the TC was implemented three years ago, and is fast reaching it's sell by date, and in my opinion it already has. A overhaul the Tactical side of the game will no doubt need a new match engine to go with, and I'd say these to be the two most important features within the game. Surely, as soon as the TC was introduced three years ago, work started on how it can be improved, where is this work three years down the line, will we see it this time next year fours years on? By that stage other areas will no doubt need bringing up too standard, and SI's workload will be even heavier. When I see improvements in media, and introduction of new staff role I feel that they should be done anyway, and shouldn't necessarily be lauded so highly, and should be prerequisites of a new release anyway.

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I lost the count of video blogs.. 16 maybe? 17? I've seen the pitch 2 times only. So all i have to ask is this simple question:

in this "Football Manager 2013", where it comes to football?

Totally agree with you, but on the SI side, i have to say that the video has been told to be recorded long time ago, and in the meanwhile large modifications and improvements have been done. This is what they said, and this is what we hope.

I'm waiting for match engine videos here, but all we got is boring videos on interactions and media... blahh :)

Agreed. I've seen your posts around the various discussion threads, and I agree with where you are coming from. I've mentioned various times within those threads, most notably the training thread that the fundamentals of football management, what Wenger, Ferguson, Rodgers go through day in day out, are lacking within the game now - and by that I mean largely based around the depth within training and developing players, training and preparing your side ahead of games in line with the tactics and phases of play, to the actual level of tactical control you have on match day - all lacking. If these areas where improved I could see reason why you'd have a Head Scout or Head's of department, because by and large you would be too busy with managerial business relating to your team and match days to be able to micro-manage in the detail many managers do within the game. Until then, I may as well do everything that a DOF will be doing, I may as well filter through scout reports, as I damn sure haven't got anything better to do on the training field. If these areas were improved to a great extent, you'd have an incredible game; one that you'd really be able to value the work with added staff roles, board philosophies, analyses as they would really actually mean something. If I'm too busy preparing my side to face a Champions League final, I can then appreciate the added detail in what my director of football is doing, or how my head of scouting has filtered through scout reports, I may even feel compelled to attend a press conference, instead of breezing through the game without a second thought because it offers minimal challenge any longer.

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I don't really think any of these discussions will matter unless people show their dissatisfaction with the lack of groundbreaking new features by not buying the game. If the bottom line suffers, you can bet they will listen.

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Unfortunately I don't think this will be the case. Due to the advances within this series aligned to more mainstream audience, rather than the ardent, 'hardcore FMer' SI and Sega will no doubt again see more units sold than ever. Example, making a more accessible game to many with different modes of play will see many people buy the game where they previously thought not to have time to play, which is clearly visible in the marketing used in the video on that subject. Sure there are going to be people who won't be purchasing, I wish I didn't jump the gun and I could, for various reasons, and I think if you could highlight this number there would be more so than ever; especially relating to a large dissatisfaction in the changes in training. But SI will be gaining more than they will be losing.

So fundamentally SI and Sega will be gaining more by developing a classic mode and increased network play, albeit with an opportunity cost being customers not purchasing due to stagnation in the development of the Match Engine, training or tactics.

What's more worrying I'd add is that customers shouldn't have to resort to such extremes, they shouldn't have to force the issue with SI by not purchasing the game.

The people at SI are in a better position to know whats what, and if they want to listen they know where to go. These guys are clearly doing the market research into what the gamers of Football Manager want to see, and unless they are blindly ignoring such research it's indicating that areas such as the ME, training, tactics aren't taking priority, instead media interaction, deadline day and network games are. Does this mean, people like me, who enjoy playing the game and immersing themselves into tactical and training sides of the game are being phased out for people who like talking to the media and checking how high they stand on leaderboards - I don't think this is the case, but this is most certainly the perception I'm receiving, and I'm sure many others too.

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Im not excited because i watched the match engine videos and saw the same awful defending and goalkeeping from the last version of FM. Maybe it was the tactics used in that demo but im just tired of the inability to defend as a team and close down properly. It just looked like the effort went into all of these new modes and things that really i could care less about. the core game doesnt appear to have improved. i will give the demo a shot but right now it isnt looking good.

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Im not excited because i watched the match engine videos and saw the same awful defending and goalkeeping from the last version of FM. Maybe it was the tactics used in that demo but im just tired of the inability to defend as a team and close down properly. It just looked like the effort went into all of these new modes and things that really i could care less about. the core game doesnt appear to have improved. i will give the demo a shot but right now it isnt looking good.

The real world of tactics and how teams play is changing as we speak, with it undeniably shifting towards the Barcelona/Spain model of football - high uniformed pressing, and careful use of the ball taking president to other styles of play such as the counter attack. You only need to look within the tactics forum and so many threads or discussions are centered around models of possession and pressing - yet when you really focus on how these models of football can be replicated in the match engine, it's really lacking in my opinion. There is a clear trade off you have to accept in terms of ball retention and chance creation, I can have Xavi make 100+ passes in a game, yet won't create nearly as many chances as would be seen in any of the games that Xavi would have similar control over in real life. The ability to press high up the field as groups of players just isn't there; Player A will press, then followed by player B once the ball has bypassed player A - when in real life you would see players press and move as a group to pin the opposition into a tight area, over in a corner of the field.

In a years time, what with Brendan Rodger's work at Liverpool, this style of play will be even more common knowledge and of acceptance to your man on the street, even more so to large numbers of FM players, meaning that even more players of FM will surely want to replicate this style - so surely there should be a match engine capable of dealing with this style of football. The worrying thing is that there are various phases of play in football that are just unattainable in the ME - center backs bringing the ball out from the back by dribbling, center backs moving wide, covering the flanks without the need of a wing/full backs, attacking intent of libero's, after all this is a position that is given to us by SI in their tactics creator (Libero Attack), yet their own match engine doesn't perform to a capability to allow such a player. This isn't even touching on such bugs as the continued offsides of corner takers etc.

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In all honesty, FM12 has disappointed me. The match engine to me still plays like it is fundamentally flawed with some pretty animations added each version. My opinion (and one that has no validity whatsoever given I am not a game developer) is the 3D was brought in too early, likely because of Fifa Manager, and many flaws in it from the beginning have remained (defensive movements being a big one).

Secondly, things such as inane press conference questions, non-sensical player chats and ridiculous opposition manager comments really affect my immersion in the game. Why am I being asked who will win WPOTY in the Conference North? Why is an opposition manager publicly saying I am dreaming if I think I can win an upcoming match? Why does my player demand to leave, I offer him out without interest, and he then decides I've broken a promise to him? Why is a 17-year-old refusing to be mentored by a club legend and then giving me attitude about it? These 'features' have not been properly addressed for 2-3 versions now.

I am still excited as I always am, but I am also very apprehensive.

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I am with you QWERTYOP - there is one thing to say with the FM team-they always listen and are willing to respond to suggestions- i like the fact they give the option for people who may or may not want to participate in transfer day - I am looking forward to it I think this will bring great realism to the game- and have loaded up my mp3s (football fans chants and intro themes from around grounds) in anticipation as well -this only adds to such a great classic of a game

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I just want to see the ME drastically improved and same as the AI...Thats when I will be excited tbh. All these little new features are encouraging, but they dont give me that sense of WOW I cant wait until release.

In FM12, players dont close down properly and the ME seems somewhat 'behind'. I was playing CM0304 yesterday, and God, even that ME seemed not much different to FM12, i dare say it was better and felt smoother.

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I don't feel as I am alone, and looking around some of the video podcast threads I see a quite (or not so quite) contingent of other members who aren't too enamored with what SI have produced this year; but why? What where you expecting that hasn't or yet been delivered? What do you wish SI had focused on?

Adding content instead of removing it; less 'casualization' (i.e. the focus solely being on the tactic creator and the game being limited by it as a result, also in training this time); not fixing small but annoying problems; few or no major, noticeable, "tangible" changes - I am not talking about changing the fundamentals, but about actual progress beyond 'you can now pick one of five moods at a press conference... which you will automate sooner or later anyway', what were the big changes or new features over the past couple of years that really mattered, that really expanded the game in a noticeable way? 3d view (which I don't use but you cannot dispute it's a huge step forward) and adding/removing leagues (bugged)?

Long story short, it's pretty much the database update (and the low price) that might make me buy the game, not any of the 'new' features.

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I'm really not going to look at the game at all this year unless they do something about the game being played at HD.

The UI is so far behind the times in terms of how it handles screen real estate and displaying information it's a shambles. When you have to play a game in a tiny Window on an HD monitor because you can't do with having 257 boxes crammed full of text and some repeating information, pressing a button and going to a screen where you have three columns spread across the entire width of the screen with massive gaps in between - then you know something is wrong with how the UI is designed and implemented.

I'm still not seeing anything with regards to the ME that indicates that they've improved defending, which has basically been the same mess for the last five or six years - meaning the only successful tactics for anything below a world class team is to be unrealistically attacking.

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To be honest it's exactly what i expected.

Database update, a few new features the majority won't use and... well, that's about it.

Defending still sucks according to the videos we've seen, so whole style of play is taken out the game (which is stupid as you can now be told to play defensively or get the sack according to one of the blog videos). But on the bright side we've added a stupid arcade version of the game so that we can get money when someone daft enough spends £1.99 to buy a "no offsides" 'enhancement' pack.

If anyone chimes in with the "oh but those are work in progress videos, the ME will have changed massively since the videos were recorded", i should remind you that:

1. this wasn't the case in the previous years releases - the videos we were shown at this stage were near as dammit what we got in the final version

2. if by some miracle the ME had improved drastically, why spend so much time showing us videos of someone pressing the new 'tones' button on a press conference? The ME is the most important part of the game, but it is the part that seems to get the least attention.

It seems that SI just aren't listening to anyone any more.

If someone has time I'd love to see a rundown of the wishlist thread from a few years ago (two years should be enough time to incorporate the changes) against what actually went into this update - I'm willing to bet the two lists are a hundred miles apart. Which is a real shame as most games would kill to get the fan base FM has and the feedback (which up until now has been mostly constructive) that entails.

I just can't see any of the wish list items the community has requested for the last few years being incorporated into these updates. If we are the ones buying and playing the game and we're telling you what we want, then surely we should be listened to? It's a locked down scope of the changes to make which is a programmers dream.

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To be honest it's exactly what i expected.

Database update, a few new features the majority won't use and... well, that's about it.

Defending still sucks according to the videos we've seen, so whole style of play is taken out the game (which is stupid as you can now be told to play defensively or get the sack according to one of the blog videos). But on the bright side we've added a stupid arcade version of the game so that we can get money when someone daft enough spends £1.99 to buy a "no offsides" 'enhancement' pack.

If anyone chimes in with the "oh but those are work in progress videos, the ME will have changed massively since the videos were recorded", i should remind you that:

1. this wasn't the case in the previous years releases - the videos we were shown at this stage were near as dammit what we got in the final version

2. if by some miracle the ME had improved drastically, why spend so much time showing us videos of someone pressing the new 'tones' button on a press conference? The ME is the most important part of the game, but it is the part that seems to get the least attention.

It seems that SI just aren't listening to anyone any more.

If someone has time I'd love to see a rundown of the wishlist thread from a few years ago (two years should be enough time to incorporate the changes) against what actually went into this update - I'm willing to bet the two lists are a hundred miles apart. Which is a real shame as most games would kill to get the fan base FM has and the feedback (which up until now has been mostly constructive) that entails.

I just can't see any of the wish list items the community has requested for the last few years being incorporated into these updates. If we are the ones buying and playing the game and we're telling you what we want, then surely we should be listened to? It's a locked down scope of the changes to make which is a programmers dream.

THIS THIS THIS ....And to the above poster which mentions the game being played in HD...We are in the year 2013 (just about) and I still need to play the game in windowed mode as its near impossible to play on full screen due to the distortion

SI......Don't think....Don't hope......Just Do!!!!!!!!!!

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Go to say, I did buy 2012 but have hardly played it. Love 2011, perfect mix for me. TBH the team talks did it for me in 2012, having to choose tone of voice etc, seemed a bit distant to me - too much time spent clicking really.

Each to their own though, the new features look good but I'll stick to 2011 for a while yet.

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There are a lot of new features which I'm not too mad about. I don't want to be told to play a certain way, i won't use challenge mode, I always get my transfers done before the season so deadline day will mean little to me.

Main thing for me is just the updated squads and players. Kagawa isn't good enough on FM12, Van Persie has to be a little better on it too after his amazing season for Arsenal. Nick Powell should be improved too.. And this is just Man United.

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I'm sort of on the fence. The fact that I can get it so cheap kind of makes me want to purchase it, because I'm sure I'd get £20 worth of gameplay out of it easily. But then again, I'm not impressed with anything they've announced so far. FMC I couldn't care less about, will never play it. The whole training overhaul looks like a step backwards. The ME does not look like it has taken any great strides forward. And the rest is just fluff. Longer press conferences and tones? Great, now my ass man will have new and more exciting ways of screwing team morale, thanks a lot for that. And so on. I don't even see anything about the UI that makes me look at FM12 and say 'well that looks much smoother and more intuitive there'. Basically there's just nothing about FM13 that would urge me to make a purchase except the price.

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Long post coming.

My disinterest has recently become mild curiosity, but there's still not been anything to make me desperate to play the game today. I am not excited about the game because there simply hasn't been anything in the videos to particularly excite me, and because the emphasis of the videos has been disappointing. I play the game for a few hours most nights in what I would assume is a pretty bog standard, single-player way, either in the English leagues or a fictional American league structure, with fictional players.

There are two areas which need to be improved in my book before anything else is considered, and neither has been addressed in any meaningful way so far:

The Match Engine has had two videos dedicated to it which have gone off on tangents about cameras and animations, whilst showing early footage that appears skiddier and defensively weaker than FM12, although without context it's difficult to judge.

Improved AI Squad building is the other central part that needs dramatic improvement. It's a difficult thing to get across in a video, but it's been barely mentioned so far at all. Without it, some of the few developments that do pique my interest may be for naught.

Both of these will be decided by first-hand experience in the demo. But in terms of the actual video blogs, there really hasn't been a lot to attract me, personally, to the game. Let's take it announcement by announcement.

Initial Annoucement: I am happy with the time I have to play the game and the pace at which it moves when I'm playing it. As such, FMC is of no interest to me. I recognise it is a very good thing for a number of other players in a different situation to my own, and don't begrudge them it. But it does nothing for me. The Challenge mode is something I'm a little curious about and will tinker with, but curious is not the same as excited.

Match Engine: Show, don't tell. I gained more from Paul C's comments in the thread than the videos themselves. The footage included is very early footage, fine, I can understand why that would be the case. But this is, for me, the guts of the game, and the most important part of FM13- not the animations, not how it looks in 3D or with new camera angles, but how the game actually behaves when dealing with a match. If the bar has been raised "way, way higher", we need to see that this is true, and the footage that is shown doesn't instil confidence- short, context-free clips don't do that. The demo will.

Match Day: UI improvements, with a new popup widget that doesn't appear to be able to include a live league table, so is of no use to me. I do not use the quick sub function at the moment, as my subs are often accompanied by formation and tactical changes, so again, I don't gain a lot from that change.

Network Game: Great for those who play network games, which I have dabbled with but which my play style and connection speed doesn't suit. Again, might be something I try, but certainly nothing to jump around over.

Leaderboards: Forgetting all the Genie/FMRTE issues that'll plague the top of the charts, the bottom line is that I suck as a manager. I don't need to be 98,503rd out of 117,323 on a leaderboard to tell me that, or whatever.

Director of Football: Being able to enable/disable exactly what he does and doesn't do makes him little more than a glorified Assistant Manager, a guide to allow people to turn off bits of the game they don't want to do. It's a missed opportunity to add a different challenge into the game.

Staff Roles: More guides. Relying on AI judgement to look after my scouting and youth development in a deeper way than exists currently? Given the squad-building issues that exist in FM12, I'll pass on that one, thanks.

Training: It's clearly inflamed some passionate defenders of the current slider system, and I see their point, but as I said in that thread itself, training has always been something I've pretty much ignored, setting everything to General and letting them get on with it. Micromanaging to try and get someone's Composure to 20 rather than 18 has never been of much interest to me. The new system seems better for people in my position, but as it's something I've not given much time or attention to in the past, it's not exactly something to get my pulse racing now.

Competition Updates: No real word about any implementation of the EPPP (beyond the U21 league), which may be a blessing in disguise- that is going to wreck lower-league youth development IRL. Otherwise, the academies sound a nice idea, but since I tend to play with fictional players and leagues, there's really not a lot to appeal to me personally.

Comparison: Tools to do things that can already be done, albeit in an easier way. Not a reason for excitement.

Loans & Scouting: The club philosophy seems a very nice addition, and I'm interested to see how this plays out in the demo- it'll be a question of whether they've got the balance of its influence right, or whether it's over/underpowered. The loan improvements are also promising.

Transfer Deadline Day: A very interesting feature from where I'm sitting, but another one which needs to be joined with dramatic improvements in the AI squad building. There's not been much evidence given so far that it's been improved, and without it, this feature in particular could become somewhat ridiculous. It'd be like Spurs buying an international keeper they don't need and then sitting him on the bench behind a 41-year-old...

Media: A horribly missed opportunity. There's no evident improvement by adding tones to what is already one of the most tedious parts of the game. Could easily be improved simply by adding greater variation in Q&A's to prevent so much repetition, but really, PC's and media interaction in general could use a complete revamp.

International Management: Never had much experience as an international boss, and I'm actually surprised to learn the media interaction wasn't already in the game. The enhanced player interaction seems cute, but again, it's not something I've had much dealing with previously at an international level.

Interaction: More options in player and manager interaction is always a good thing. However, backroom advice will be ignored as always- my last backroom meeting was over two years ago. Again, interested to see how much influence the board philosophy has, but that's a curiosity, not a reason to say "Yes, I must pre-order this right this second".

tl;dr version: If the AI Squad Building and Match Engine are improved, I'm on board. Until then, there's not been much announced to get excited over.

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No competition = No real ground breaking progress, put yourself in the manager director shoes for a second, now you could spend 2 million pounds and go all out and produce a near perfect product which 90% of your customers are ecstatic with and reduce your profit margin by 20% or as theres no real competition and people will buy it because your product is still the market leader, you could just spend 200,000 pounds and increase your profit margin by 40% . Now what are you going to do ?.

I've played this Series since Championship Manger 98/99 and until FM2009 only bought the game every 2 years, I'm seriously considering going back to this way of buying it, as since FM2011 nothing has actually improved if anything they add new features that don't work properly in one version try and fix it by releasing a patch that only results in another part of the game becoming unstable, then turn round and tell people that report any bugs "it must be your PC/Laptop", SI Games need to start listening to what their customers actually want from the product, for most people its a better AI and a revamp with the tactical side of the game, me personally would also add all the annoying and sometimes game breaking bugs to be fixed from the previous version/s.

I Downloaded FIFA Manager Demo the other day just to see what thats like, though I haven't installed it yet as part of me thinks it like cheating on a partner LOL.

Theres only 2 ways that SI Games will stand up and listen 1) For people not to buy this years game and see their profit diminish or 2) for EA Games to step up and make FIFA Manager the market leader/or another software house to produce a rival game.

Hopefully SI Games will take notice of the growing discontent and finally take steps to improve the game for FM14 with what there bread and butter customers want, Miles mentioned in his podcast how they work 2-3 versions ahead, my advice get FM14 right else working on the following 2 versions will be a waste of time.

Ps all figures in the first paragraph are made up to get my point across.

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I think the tactics and player intelligence and all the glitches in defending need to be dealt with in the next few versions. I like some of the things they've implemented but what's in the first sentence is what I want the most.

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I was excited when it was confirmed that a big ME change was ready for this years version then I learned it wasn't a wholly new ME as I had got the impression it would be, but a rewrite, the biggest feature of which would be improved ball physics. I was shown about a minute of this new ME with a disclaimer that its a work in progress which didn't do anything to excite. If its such an improvement show us SI.

I was hopping for a more customisable game that would let me drop press conferences and media interaction. What I got was a choice of game modes I could drop the press and media but I also had to drop features like training. But I'm an optimist so I thought maybe SI have vastly improved these aspects of the game in normal mode. What was their big announcement the addition of Tones.

Well maybe SI had taken notice of the increasing number of posts complaining about AI squad building. They have and I am excited and gladdened to hear that AI managers will now look at players attributes to make sure they are suitable for the tactics they will play in. That's great but it's about thirteen years over due. As soon as the number of attributes was increased from eight it was necessary.

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Two things for me for which the game has failed to live up to expectations over the past few years since FM2009 that being the following:

1) AI with regards to the computer controlled teams, there buying and selling plus there tactics have been abysmal and beyond belief it makes me cringe.

2) The match engine is flawed with regards to formations and with this I mean if you want to use sweepers or DMC tactics where they fail to work fully. Paul C has done incredible work on this but it has been a major concern for me as watching what you see in 3D is showing you all the flaws. The 3D match engine is pretty awful to watch at times as it seems the players seem to be on a different planet to with regards to the tactics you have set.

Overall these two issues are the core problems of the game in truth, yet there always being dismissed or worked on with regards to further development, but how long will it take for these to be ironed out before we can say good job SI you have nailed it finally, maybe FM2020 :(

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About stop purchasing FM for giving a signal:

until there are posts like this http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/314457-*Official*-Football-Manager-2013-Announced!?p=8074011&viewfull=1#post8074011, and this http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/314457-*Official*-Football-Manager-2013-Announced!?p=8074089&viewfull=1#post8074089, the gold mine will always be productive.

People seems not even stop for a while considering what they would spend their money for.

However, i'm a football fan and a football manager series lover, this is undeniable. And i'm ready to forget about all this "communication stuff" if they put on the plate an improved match engine (i dont ask for a flawless one because i know it's impossible to create a flawless one) without all that outrageous and silly stuff i was forced to see in the past 2 releases, and a brand new tactic system allowing me to be more "free" on setting my players on the pitch, or that allow me to put 2 men outside the box on a corner kick (just an example :) )

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I lost the count of video blogs.. 16 maybe? 17? I've seen the pitch 2 times only. So all i have to ask is this simple question:

in this "Football Manager 2013", where it comes to football?

You haven't been watching very closely then. Several of the videos have had large chunks of time on the field.

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As for the original question, I'm not that excited, because I never really buy the game until March or so, when it goes down to about $10-15 and the final patch/squad update has been released. I'm perfectly content with my 2011 Career in the PL, and my 2012 Career in the MLS until then.

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You haven't been watching very closely then. Several of the videos have had large chunks of time on the field.

Oh really? Yeah probably i haven't watched all those video blogs closely, could you please help me telling which of them exactly?

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Quite intrigued by Classic mode, although it seems to get a lot of stick. It should go a long way to replicating CM01/02 (if they've done it right), which is a game I still play in the background when doing something else.

Anything that gets rid of the stupid teamtalk / media / scouting / training / player interaction is a Godsend, in my eyes.

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Oh really? Yeah probably i haven't watched all those video blogs closely, could you please help me telling which of them exactly?

There's been 15 videos so far. I think there's been at least 4 or 5 with some video in them of on-field. Only ones that I remember had it for sure are 2 match engine videos (one that was just clips), and the match-day video. Not sure about the rest. Sorry.

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Ok because i'm pretty sure we're talking about 2 videos only, about real football, and speaking honestly the first one was awful and poor, and still i can't understand why they decided to show us something like that. The second video was without any kind of comment, yet they speak about 900 among fixes and changes in the ME. Nobody knows which or what they fixed though.

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Have to agree with the thread starter. After buying the game for many years this is the first year I am not impressed and excited with what im seeing. 900 features? Come on little tweaks here and there shouldn't qualify as new features. Nothing substantial for me that makes it different to other FM games.

I think in FM 2005 (I think) when FM introduced the 3d match engine for the first time, there was such a buzz and football management games took on a whole new meaning. The last few versions of the game nothing has stood out and for me the games have become season updates with small tweaks.

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No competition = No real ground breaking progress, put yourself in the manager director shoes for a second, now you could spend 2 million pounds and go all out and produce a near perfect product which 90% of your customers are ecstatic with and reduce your profit margin by 20% or as theres no real competition and people will buy it because your product is still the market leader, you could just spend 200,000 pounds and increase your profit margin by 40% . Now what are you going to do?

This analogy isn't true for FM.

The FM outgoings are paying programmers for their time to implement features and improve existing elements.

Whether the programmers are adding the new classic mode or fixing the ME doesn't matter. It'll cost the same.

What a lot of people in this thread are complaining about is they are not listening to what the community is telling them needs fixing and are adding new features instead.

As the post above that broke down each video states, a lot of the stuff isn't great and relies on elements that the community have reported as not good enough. Therefore the new feature will not make a difference to the majority of users

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I only buy the game every other year and got the last one so will probably skip this one.

If after the Christmas and most of the bugs have been fixed people a raving about how great it is and the match engine is awesome but the best thing is the AI, amazing then I will consider it

but I wont hold my breath on that ;)

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I only buy the game every other year and got the last one so will probably skip this one.

If after the Christmas and most of the bugs have been fixed people a raving about how great it is and the match engine is awesome but the best thing is the AI, amazing then I will consider it

but I wont hold my breath on that ;)

Like richpk, I started only buying the game every 2 years and it helps. I didn't buy it last year so I am pretty excited about FM13 - already pre-ordered.

As much as SI **** me off with some stuff, this is the game that keeps me hooked the longest - across any genre.

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Just to add, I am gambling on the AI making this game a completely different experience (in a good way).

The AI is the one thing that has turned me off playing more than about 4 seasons into a career...and I want to be playing 20+.

IF the AI makes teams play differently, and build up squads well so that I have competition after a few years, this will be amazing. I might be hoping for a lot considering this has been a major gripe for YEARS.

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Just to add, I am gambling on the AI making this game a completely different experience (in a good way).

The AI is the one thing that has turned me off playing more than about 4 seasons into a career...and I want to be playing 20+.

IF the AI makes teams play differently, and build up squads well so that I have competition after a few years, this will be amazing. I might be hoping for a lot considering this has been a major gripe for YEARS.

I personally think it sounds like you should be able to get at least 6 seasons into a career which will be an improvement.

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This analogy isn't true for FM.

The FM outgoings are paying programmers for their time to implement features and improve existing elements.

Whether the programmers are adding the new classic mode or fixing the ME doesn't matter. It'll cost the same.

What a lot of people in this thread are complaining about is they are not listening to what the community is telling them needs fixing and are adding new features instead.

As the post above that broke down each video states, a lot of the stuff isn't great and relies on elements that the community have reported as not good enough. Therefore the new feature will not make a difference to the majority of users

More work = More experienced programmers needed and or more overtime for the existing programmers = more outlay = analogy true, the main point though was to get across that without someone kicking at there heels theres no incentive for them to put the extra effort in to get the game as the community wants it.

Since writing my last post I installed FIFA Manager 2012 demo and have written another post on the wishlist thread.

On friday I was looking at the best deals for FM13 online and even got to the point of clicking add to basket, when I thought to myself am I buying it just to get it cheap and get the beta and then thought why are SI Games doing this, is because they have noticed the discontent and think that if they release a demo people wont be that enamored with it. By doing this pre-order incentive are they just trying to get our money before we get a proper look at the game and decide its not worth it ?.

I could be just be being cynical but theres this little voice in my head saying is it a incentive or money grabbing.

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In my fm2012 in 7th season, when i go to transfer history, i bought 15 players( 8 of them for free, just to sell them year later) , you know how many players Man. City bought in transfer window? 0!!! year before they bought 3 or 4 players, this year 0 !! I have large database with many leagues running. Rest of clubs in premier l. bought some players, but city 0. Generally AI club teams buy WWAAAAYY to small amount of players and then these players they bought dont play.

I hope they change that BIG time.

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I personally think it sounds like you should be able to get at least 6 seasons into a career which will be an improvement.

:lol:

.......

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I used to spend all day at school waiting to rush home to load up the latest release of Football Manager, and even in recent years I couldn't wait to get my hands on the game after cooking the demo to death, but this year has to be the first where I'm not unduly bothered that there is an imminent release.

Its called growing up, I remember when the car ride home from the shops was too long to wait to play a new game. Now I am happy for it to sit on my desktop for a week until I have time to play it.

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My reasons for not being really excited are two-fold.

One, I'm really into a game on FM12 and don't want to stop just yet, definitely a few more seasons in it.

Two, as others have said, I am too old to get excited about it.

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1. The changes that are made won't really affect me, because I like to use the editor and I'm actually quite worried that it will be ruined or at least downgraded for FM13.

2. Because I've never really gotten excited about any computer game.

3. Because I'm quite happy continuing to play FM12 until I've got enough spare cash to get FM13; I've got more than a few decent saves going on right now.

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It seems that SI just aren't listening to anyone any more.

In the blog announcing Classic mode, Miles noted that a lot of people on the SI staff don't even really play the game anymore. I think this is probably one of the major reasons for the disconnect between the development staff and the more dedicated portion of the fanbase. If you only play one or two seasons per save and don't really care if your 5-3-2 plays like a real 5-3-2, the issues frequently discussed here on the forum won't seem very obvious.

Additionally, a problem can look very different from the perspective of a player looking at the fine details of the game world in the 20th season of a long-term save than it does from the perspective of a developer running soak tests and looking at statistical averages. For example, one issue that I've raised is the way Bravery is assigned randomly regardless of player position and how it leads to a massive drop in the average Bravery rating of defensive players after just 10 years, but when I raised this with SI, they said there wasn't a problem because Bravery was distributed in realistic proportions across the game world. While this is true in the most general sense and would look that way to a busy developer looking at things from the broadest perspective, it's little consolation to a player who suddenly finds the competition becoming ever weaker as the AI starts assigning defensive midfield duties to players with Bravery in the low single digits. It's a similar situation with squad development. While it's true that AI teams "improve" in the sense that they slightly increase the average CA of their squad, the problem with squad building is that CA/PA are too general in scope to drive coherent, effective AI squad development.

And then the ME and tactics are a whole separate set of issues. How long has it been since players have actually been given a genuinely NEW tactical instruction to give to their players? Tactics are the heart of the game and the core of a manager's identity, but we're now at a point where we have more options for how we want to tell a player that you "Have Faith" than we have for telling that player how we want him to move on the pitch. But then again, how many 2-3 season players care as long as they can lead West Brom to the Champions League final by 2015 with a plug & play tactic that destroys the AI simply by virtue of using the right players in the right roles?

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In the blog announcing Classic mode, Miles noted that a lot of people on the SI staff don't even really play the game anymore. I think this is probably one of the major reasons for the disconnect between the development staff and the more dedicated portion of the fanbase. If you only play one or two seasons per save and don't really care if your 5-3-2 plays like a real 5-3-2, the issues frequently discussed here on the forum won't seem very obvious.

Additionally, a problem can look very different from the perspective of a player looking at the fine details of the game world in the 20th season of a long-term save than it does from the perspective of a developer running soak tests and looking at statistical averages. For example, one issue that I've raised is the way Bravery is assigned randomly regardless of player position and how it leads to a massive drop in the average Bravery rating of defensive players after just 10 years, but when I raised this with SI, they said there wasn't a problem because Bravery was distributed in realistic proportions across the game world. While this is true in the most general sense and would look that way to a busy developer looking at things from the broadest perspective, it's little consolation to a player who suddenly finds the competition becoming ever weaker as the AI starts assigning defensive midfield duties to players with Bravery in the low single digits. It's a similar situation with squad development. While it's true that AI teams "improve" in the sense that they slightly increase the average CA of their squad, the problem with squad building is that CA/PA are too general in scope to drive coherent, effective AI squad development.

And then the ME and tactics are a whole separate set of issues. How long has it been since players have actually been given a genuinely NEW tactical instruction to give to their players? Tactics are the heart of the game and the core of a manager's identity, but we're now at a point where we have more options for how we want to tell a player that you "Have Faith" than we have for telling that player how we want him to move on the pitch. But then again, how many 2-3 season players care as long as they can lead West Brom to the Champions League final by 2015 with a plug & play tactic that destroys the AI simply by virtue of using the right players in the right roles?

Fantastic post, that is. Thread locked.

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I'm not too excited about FM 2013 because of FM 2012. The game has always had a steep learning curve but '12 is the first in the series I have been totally unable to master. From my perspective something has gone wrong with the game.

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