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Miles on full-screen, 1080p... I didn't deserve that.

I jest, he's a stud.

I'm liking the improved running animations the most - although it looks better (animation-wise) in every department. Obviously impossible to tell about the AI from the video.

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Player movement looks more like ice skating then running.

SI should hire someone to do the animations for FM 14. I'm serious. 3D looks much nicer than it did in FM 2009 but the animations are still just as awful, and at this pace it seems they always will be.

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Player movement looks more like ice skating then running.

This has been the main problem since the introduction of the 3D.

It seems similar to ice hockey manager, let's hope this time this issue will be minored.

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I think it would be nice to see proper animations for a better immersion, but this is not the main priority in this moment in my opinion. So.. let's just pass over it, we're Football Managers, not FIFA or PES players :) Once the ME runs smoothly and fine (perfection doesn't exist, but we'd be happy to see something close to it at least), next step is 3D graphic.

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For someone who uses 2D due to 3D not looking right for me, I find it strange that people are becoming very detached from what the game actually is - a football management simulator. I get the impression that many people are getting all to caught up on cosmetic features that are only glossing over detractions in other areas of the game.

For years I've known, even before the advent of the 3D in 2009 it's never going to be graphically up there with other sports games, simply because they have effectively started from scratch, where you look at games such as FIFA and PES have had years to develop who their players interactive with each other. Combine this with many other factors that SI have to deal with, it means the bar that your judging FMs 3D animations by is annually being raised.

Solely for a person who isn't interested whether my players glide, skate or run seamlessly, I find it incredibly frustrating that SI have effectively created a monster in the 3D AI, one that no doubt has held back other areas of the game due to the level of development needed to bring this area of the game up to a near acceptable standard. I can only speak in terms of the latest release of the game, but first and foremost we have an extremely restrictive AI. This I feel is the foundations of the game, where all other areas stem from - your team playing on the saturday (or whenever). If you, as a manager, want to take your team to world glories by using a back three that works properly, and a uniformed pressing system you should be able to. You shouldn't have to accept the fact that you can't play certain, widely used systems and formations in real football, simply because the match engine can't handle them - but not to worry, I can watch the game in 3D!

I believe if we hadn't the 3D match engine now, FM would be a far, far superior game than what we have now, and would be a good couple of years more advanced than what it is now. We'd certainly have a game that doesn't allow corner bugs, a game that allows us to replicate tactically what we see in real life to a much detailed extent, we'd have a much more advanced AI in terms of squad building and player development, and we'd have a AI that tactically challenges us and makes us think about what we are doing.

Football Manager for me is a football management sim, what I'm seeing from a lot of other people, and I speak generally as I only can, is that people are forgetting this and desiring something a bit different through the medium of the 3D AI. What do you think of when you see the terms 'Football Management' - tactics, training, player coaching and development, the list can go on. Take these notions of football management and ask have SI done themselves full justice in these areas and can they be radically developed. I'll think your find that by and large, these are areas of improvement; and in my opinion take much greater priority than 3D animations - as that isn't, for me, what Football Management is about.

Like I've previously said in a much earlier comment in this thread, this is what people want, and what is going to sell games - which I find sad and a tad disappointing. To think that I'm going to have an AI that can't squad build yet I'm going to have an 3D AI that doesn't look and feel right and has taken an inconsievable amount of hours to get to, really frustrates me, especially when you think of the opportunity cost of the hours that have been used to work on the 3D animations.

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For someone who uses 2D due to 3D not looking right for me, I find it strange that people are becoming very detached from what the game actually is - a football management simulator. I get the impression that many people are getting all to caught up on cosmetic features that are only glossing over detractions in other areas of the game.

For years I've known, even before the advent of the 3D in 2009 it's never going to be graphically up there with other sports games, simply because they have effectively started from scratch, where you look at games such as FIFA and PES have had years to develop who their players interactive with each other. Combine this with many other factors that SI have to deal with, it means the bar that your judging FMs 3D animations by is annually being raised.

Solely for a person who isn't interested whether my players glide, skate or run seamlessly, I find it incredibly frustrating that SI have effectively created a monster in the 3D AI, one that no doubt has held back other areas of the game due to the level of development needed to bring this area of the game up to a near acceptable standard. I can only speak in terms of the latest release of the game, but first and foremost we have an extremely restrictive AI. This I feel is the foundations of the game, where all other areas stem from - your team playing on the saturday (or whenever). If you, as a manager, want to take your team to world glories by using a back three that works properly, and a uniformed pressing system you should be able to. You shouldn't have to accept the fact that you can't play certain, widely used systems and formations in real football, simply because the match engine can't handle them - but not to worry, I can watch the game in 3D!

I believe if we hadn't the 3D match engine now, FM would be a far, far superior game than what we have now, and would be a good couple of years more advanced than what it is now. We'd certainly have a game that doesn't allow corner bugs, a game that allows us to replicate tactically what we see in real life to a much detailed extent, we'd have a much more advanced AI in terms of squad building and player development, and we'd have a AI that tactically challenges us and makes us think about what we are doing.

Football Manager for me is a football management sim, what I'm seeing from a lot of other people, and I speak generally as I only can, is that people are forgetting this and desiring something a bit different through the medium of the 3D AI. What do you think of when you see the terms 'Football Management' - tactics, training, player coaching and development, the list can go on. Take these notions of football management and ask have SI done themselves full justice in these areas and can they be radically developed. I'll think your find that by and large, these are areas of improvement; and in my opinion take much greater priority than 3D animations - as that isn't, for me, what Football Management is about.

Like I've previously said in a much earlier comment in this thread, this is what people want, and what is going to sell games - which I find sad and a tad disappointing. To think that I'm going to have an AI that can't squad build yet I'm going to have an 3D AI that doesn't look and feel right and has taken an inconsievable amount of hours to get to, really frustrates me.

As far as I'm aware the ME and AI teams are separate, so not sure that argument stands up.

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But they all come under the same cloud of designing the game. Fundamentally SI have prioritised the 3D AI in terms of development for many years I feel, and wrongly so, especially when we have a game that has many glaring defficiencies that should have been improved upon long ago.

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But they all come under the same cloud of designing the game. Fundamentally SI have prioritised the 3D AI in terms of development for many years I feel, and wrongly so, especially when we have a game that has many glaring defficiencies that should have been improved upon long ago.

If you have two separate teams constantly working on their own thing, how will it have been prioritised? The match engine is a vital part of the game, and being able to the corresponding changes occur, requires the animation to be as up scratch as possible interms of replicating movement. It's all part of becoming the closest sim ever.

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But they all come under the same cloud of designing the game. Fundamentally SI have prioritised the 3D AI in terms of development for many years I feel, and wrongly so, especially when we have a game that has many glaring defficiencies that should have been improved upon long ago.

I dont think thats the case at all, the company has expanded and employed new people to integrate new things into the game, as Paul himself has said in this thread, he thinks its better to work with a small team that know what they are doing rather than just throw bodies at the problems, it would almost definitely cause more issues than it would fix. I would imagine this is the same for the modules of FM, more people doesnt mean less bugs.

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If anything, I'd say the introduction of the 3D view is going to make for a better and more realistic engine in the long run. The improved ball physics for instance very likely wouldn't have happened as they weren't really needed in 2D. And no, it's not a cosmetic feature. There is no reason to believe the AI has been held back by the 3D graphics.

I don't understand all this "this is a management sim" talk TBH. For some reason it implies FM should be a text only game with maybe some dots on the screen. Apparently that is what football management is really about.

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I take your point, but I find it inconceivable to think that we wouldn't have a much better game than we do now if other areas received far greater attention than they previously have done. This year I believe I'm right in saying that their are to be developments in training; but what I was trying to say in, looking at it now, a rather long-winded a tiresome post, training a player development is the basics to any real life manager worth his salt, but there hasn't been any developments in this area of the game for a long time.

Looking at it objectively, developing 3D into the game was needed for the game to appeal to the mass market and take the next stage in it's development as a series. I understand that, and to see each series of Football Manager so widely acclaimed is great, and brings a smile to your face when you think you were there in humble beginnings of the old CM - but I can't help but think at what cost.

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I don't understand all this "this is a management sim" talk TBH. For some reason it implies FM should be a text only game with maybe some dots on the screen. Apparently that is what football management is really about.

I take your point in regard with 3D being a vechile for further development, especially in the case of ball movement - that wasn't something that was clear to me, and is obvious now.

"this is a managment sim talk" would refer to certain intricities, such as how players move in 3D animations (glide, run or float), how close subs sit to each other on the bench, not being a substitute to how much you are in control of your team as a manager, or how the AI competes against you.

Surely there is more work to be done to radically improve how you train and develop players in game (which I get the picture tere is), as I'm sure this is the bread and butter of what being a football manager is. You would spend hours on the training pitch each week, working on drills ahead of the game on Saturday - but all we get is a little tool named 'match preparation' Surely there is more to be done there?

There is little or no competition from the AI in regard to transfers of top quality unhidden youngsters in game, where as every scouting team from every top club in Europe will know next to everything there is to know about world football.

The AI offers you no challenge in terms of their abilities to build squads or use them to the best of their abilities, the gulf is huge in regard to where the AI is and what you as a manager are doing. Where as a new manager coming into the Premier League, see Mourinho coming to Chelsea would have offered Alex Ferguson a great challenge.

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I take your point, but I find it inconceivable to think that we wouldn't have a much better game than we do now if other areas received far greater attention than they previously have done. This year I believe I'm right in saying that their are to be developments in training; but what I was trying to say in, looking at it now, a rather long-winded a tiresome post, training a player development is the basics to any real life manager worth his salt, but there hasn't been any developments in this area of the game for a long time.

But as others have stated, maybe in other threads, they dont develop things in a year, its over a number of years, training has had improvements over the years, maybe not many ground breaking, but definite improvements from where it used to be, its the same for all of the game, SI tend to take steps and not strides most years, they leave the strides for when they are as certain as they can be that its going to work properly.

Looking at it objectively, developing 3D into the game was needed for the game to appeal to the mass market and take the next stage in it's development as a series. I understand that, and to see each series of Football Manager so widely acclaimed is great, and brings a smile to your face when you think you were there in humble beginnings of the old CM - but I can't help but think at what cost.

I dont think its a case of at any cost, I think from what Paul has posted, if he wanted more staff he could probably get them, but experience has told him that a small experienced team gets better results. So adding new features doesnt mean taking time away from other parts of the game, it means adding new customers which hopefully means a better game for us all.

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It's not like the engine was rewritten for the introduction of an optional 3d view of the action. I don't know exactly what was adjusted in between FM 2008 and 2009, but there was always an element of "3d" anyways coded into the ME. Most of it was just presented differently thereafter, if you liked it to be. If there are serious issues, they were a part of the engine before 2009. It is a matter of representation, but the engine calculates the same thing really: whereas the oldschool commentary would say "Witsel passes the ball to Archavin" the 2d view would show you a blop passing a ball to another blop and the 3d view would show you a 3d model interchanging the pass with another 3d model. It's not like the thing was fundamentally changed from the ground up or anything, at least that is my perception of it.

Plus the videos don't really show what has been worked on in terms of AI and physics anyway - and in which way those are going to alter play. I would assume that SI taking a "time out" of the usual bug fixing and constant re-balancing for FM 2012 in favor of some major overhauls will show in some way - the additional visual flavor of the optional 3d view was done by artists at SI. The ME coding was always down to someone else.

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I don't think it's possible to evaluate new ME from two video clips. I agree that defense reasoning still seam a bit odd. Players retreat too deep and leave area in front of the box undefended but these could be just down to clip selection. On a positive side players seem bit more aware of ball movement.

Problems with pressing dynamics, transformation, marking, spatial disposition of players in accordance to ball movement and importance of particular zones, shape retention (dependent on condition, discipline, intelligence, coordination among individuals and lines, opposition movement...) and so on are hear to stay. They don't seem to be result of lack of resources, development or hardware power. They are a result of SI (mis)perception* of football shared with large number of Tactic and training mods, gurus and regulars.

It is really disappointing that we still can't instruct player to drop back in attacking phase of play (SC into AMC position, DMC into DC position and similar). I hope this will be solved in FM13.

*in my opinion

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Well we've been trying to improve the ME each update and I hope in general we have succeeded. For me, I am never really "happy" with it, but that isnt for lack of effort. By the way putting more people on the ME and away from other features would be chaotic. We currently have a tight knit team working on it and that for me is the way it should stay.

But it will never be "finished" as its so open ended plus everyone has their own view on what works and what doesnt.

And I know its a cliche but at the end of the day if you don't like it you are under no obligation to buy it :)

The market doesn't offer that much...

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So, it's since the release of the first video about match engine that people raised up their rants and complaints about defensive movements. Appropriate. But a match engine is not a good defensive movement only.

Will we see again the outrageous average of 3/4 woodwork per game? (i have exaggerated on purpose, but the average is still too high and not so far from it)

Will strikers having 20 on finishing and 20 on composure keep missing easy goals on empty net? Will they keep shooting land-air rockets on goalie's face in 1-to-1 chances?

Will we keep seeing matches with this stats: human player 30 shots, 18 on target; computer 2 shots, 1 on target. Result: 1-1.?

Will we keep seeing short passages hitting team mates on their backs of feet giving a free chance for a counter attack to the opponent?

Thanks :)

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i dont like that the keepers are constantly in a, let call it "banana state", they always bowed standing, even when jumping to block a shot or jumping to punch away a corner

So are all the outfield players when running, looks like a gang of velociraptors!

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For someone who uses 2D due to 3D not looking right for me, I find it strange that people are becoming very detached from what the game actually is - a football management simulator. I get the impression that many people are getting all to caught up on cosmetic features that are only glossing over detractions in other areas of the game.

For years I've known, even before the advent of the 3D in 2009 it's never going to be graphically up there with other sports games, simply because they have effectively started from scratch, where you look at games such as FIFA and PES have had years to develop who their players interactive with each other. Combine this with many other factors that SI have to deal with, it means the bar that your judging FMs 3D animations by is annually being raised.

Solely for a person who isn't interested whether my players glide, skate or run seamlessly, I find it incredibly frustrating that SI have effectively created a monster in the 3D AI, one that no doubt has held back other areas of the game due to the level of development needed to bring this area of the game up to a near acceptable standard. I can only speak in terms of the latest release of the game, but first and foremost we have an extremely restrictive AI. This I feel is the foundations of the game, where all other areas stem from - your team playing on the saturday (or whenever). If you, as a manager, want to take your team to world glories by using a back three that works properly, and a uniformed pressing system you should be able to. You shouldn't have to accept the fact that you can't play certain, widely used systems and formations in real football, simply because the match engine can't handle them - but not to worry, I can watch the game in 3D!

I believe if we hadn't the 3D match engine now, FM would be a far, far superior game than what we have now, and would be a good couple of years more advanced than what it is now. We'd certainly have a game that doesn't allow corner bugs, a game that allows us to replicate tactically what we see in real life to a much detailed extent, we'd have a much more advanced AI in terms of squad building and player development, and we'd have a AI that tactically challenges us and makes us think about what we are doing.

Football Manager for me is a football management sim, what I'm seeing from a lot of other people, and I speak generally as I only can, is that people are forgetting this and desiring something a bit different through the medium of the 3D AI. What do you think of when you see the terms 'Football Management' - tactics, training, player coaching and development, the list can go on. Take these notions of football management and ask have SI done themselves full justice in these areas and can they be radically developed. I'll think your find that by and large, these are areas of improvement; and in my opinion take much greater priority than 3D animations - as that isn't, for me, what Football Management is about.

Like I've previously said in a much earlier comment in this thread, this is what people want, and what is going to sell games - which I find sad and a tad disappointing. To think that I'm going to have an AI that can't squad build yet I'm going to have an 3D AI that doesn't look and feel right and has taken an inconsievable amount of hours to get to, really frustrates me, especially when you think of the opportunity cost of the hours that have been used to work on the 3D animations.

Atm there are two football managers, the one of SI and the one of EA.

While the one of EA is all just show and looks good but actually has no depth and an awful match engine the one of SI looks like it has been designed by a coder and not by a designer.

That being said I chose the one with game play depth over the one that is all shiny and looks good but I really have to ask myself sometimes why is non of the two franchises actually trying to combine the best out of both worlds?

I mean it's not like SI doesn't have any money, their game is year in and year out one of the best sold PC games on the market so how come they can't afford a good design team that can make the game a bit more visually interesting.

For me for example I don't watch the game in 3D as well because I find it's too much putting me off and I rather imagine the action on the field then to watch the 3D game at it's current state.

Of course I'm going to play the new game but still one can dream of having the best out of both worlds, a game with depth and that looks good.

Especially since I'm a player that watches every game for the full duration I would really appreciate a better looking 3D game.

But it's not only pretty animations and recognizable player faces I would appreciate but also a more entertaining match day experience, with stadiums looking like their real life counter parts and matching fan reactions to on the field actions as well as signing fans and all that good stuff that series like FIFA do so well by now.

TL/DR: Atm we have FIFA Manager which looks good and Football Manager which has good game play. Even though I chose substance over form I would love to see both in one game. I feel that Football Manager could be that game if they did some work on the design end of the game, so SI hire a good design team, pretty please.

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TL/DR: Atm we have FIFA Manager which looks good and Football Manager which has good game play.

Used to look good - and even then, with the rather ugly pitch textures of that year, in 2009

It might not even be a team or staff issue at SI, considering that, in my opinion, lots of the lighting and shadowing and texturing looks already better than FIFA Manager's rather oldish FIFA engine as is - at least under certain weather and lighting conditions. Seriously, compare to the video above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g98tQYKdjBQ&hd=1 The animations are obviously inferior, as are the models, but nothing else. FIFA Manager ain't strictly an EA game anyway - that there hasn't been an engine upgrade in years now and the thing will look and play the same for FIFA Manager 13 again might tell you a story about what kind of priority the independently produced series has for EA.

As for FM, it has been argued by board regulars that it might be hard to sync the animations to the calculations made underneath the hood, the actual match engine, so to speak. Regardless, it isn't a primary focus of Sports Interactive to make the absolute best looking football game out there - competing with the teams at Konami or EA Sports (the REAL EA Sports as opposed to the independent German studio who develops FIFA Manager) who employ a task force simply for realistically recreating Messi's hairdo is not that good an idea if you're a comparably small developer and there are more important things to get right for your game anyway. The animations and player models could still be improved, and I understand that popular criticism in particular, also some of the depth of lighting in some weather conditions (in particular sunny looks mighty fine, really) but seeing how far SI have come despite not employing large teams solely dedicated to 3D extravaganza, there is a lot in here already. Compare FM 2012 to the rather crude 3D visuals of FM 2009. However, there has always more important stuff than the visuals, and SI know this too. I'm curious to actually get to play the thing myself, rather than assessing mostly eyecandy and highlight rolls you usually get to see in those promo videos. They cannot convey what is most important in a game like this. They didn't for FM 2012 either, and for that SI had shown much more match action before the initial release of both game and demo.

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Used to look good - and even then, with the rather ugly pitch textures of that year, in 2009
It might not even be a team or staff issue at SI, considering that, in my opinion, lots of the lighting and shadowing and texturing looks already better than FIFA Manager's rather oldish FIFA engine as is - at least under certain weather and lighting conditions. Seriously, compare to the video above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g98tQYKdjBQ&hd=1 The animations are obviously inferior, as are the models, but nothing else. FIFA Manager ain't strictly an EA game anyway - that there hasn't been an engine upgrade in years now and the thing will look and play the same for FIFA Manager 13 again might tell you a story about what kind of priority the independently produced series has for EA.

As for FM, it has been argued by board regulars that it might be hard to sync the animations to the calculations made underneath the hood, the actual match engine, so to speak. Regardless, it isn't a primary focus of Sports Interactive to make the absolute best looking football game out there - competing with the teams at Konami or EA Sports (the REAL EA Sports as opposed to the independent German studio who develops FIFA Manager) who employ a task force simply for realistically recreating Messi's hairdo is not that good an idea if you're a comparably small developer and there are more important things to get right for your game anyway. The animations and player models could still be improved, and I understand that popular criticism in particular, also some of the depth of lighting in some weather conditions (in particular sunny looks mighty fine, really) but seeing how far SI have come despite not employing large teams solely dedicated to 3D extravaganza, there is a lot in here already. Compare FM 2012 to the rather crude 3D visuals of FM 2009. However, there has always more important stuff than the visuals, and SI know this too. I'm curious to actually get to play the thing myself, rather than assessing mostly eyecandy and highlight rolls you usually get to see in those promo videos. They cannot convey what is most important in a game like this. They didn't for FM 2012 either, and for that SI had shown much more match action before the initial release of both game and demo.

Well first off it's kinda useless to compare a the newest FM game with a concurrent game of 3 years ago. Second even that 2009 version looks miles better in terms of pure graphical messures but of course the match engine sucks big time and thus the overall play on the field looks much worse as a result.

Like I said I'm not a big fan of the German FM series, I have played it before I switched over to the English FM series and never regretted the step.

I can also see why a good looking 3D game isn't really a priority for SI, I remember seeing a poll somewhere that showed that only a little percentage of players actually look more then highlight mode on this game and thus it's rightly not a priority for SI.

In a addition to that most FM players probably don't have the strongest PCs which means all graphical fidelity would be lost on them, what's the use of DX11 graphics if 75% of your customers don't even have a DX11 capable graphics card.

Non the less it is still a dream of mine that one day I will actually play a FM simulation that combines a realistic looking match engine, with some nice graphics, a great match day atmosphere, maybe even with some real cup celebrations and a lot of depth to the game surrounding the match day experience.

Like I said just a wish of mine and nothing that will realistically happen in the near future but one can still dream, can't I?

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If the overall AI has improved, and I assume it will be seeing as large parts of it have been rewritten (no point rewriting something only to make it worse) then I'll be more than happy. As for the 3D graphical stuff, the new animations look great, and if they can sort the issue of the players sliding about then again I'll be very happy, because that detracts from the experience a little. My expectations aren't sky high though, I just want more of the same each year but with a nice sprinkling of improvements and fixes and an up to date database.

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If the overall AI has improved, and I assume it will be seeing as large parts of it have been rewritten (no point rewriting something only to make it worse) then I'll be more than happy. As for the 3D graphical stuff, the new animations look great, and if they can sort the issue of the players sliding about then again I'll be very happy, because that detracts from the experience a little. My expectations aren't sky high though, I just want more of the same each year but with a nice sprinkling of improvements and fixes and an up to date database.

Your statement sounds good but if for a moment you could briefly describe 2-3 points that would allow FM to become " sky high " what would you add or remove ?

Thx

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Your statement sounds good but if for a moment you could briefly describe 2-3 points that would allow FM to become " sky high " what would you add or remove ?

Thx

* Behaviour on the pitch down to attributes, not position. In other words, if you put a D/S C who have 9 or less in all the relevant striker attributes but Off the Ball (i.e a central defender that can move off the ball) in a striker position, he will behave like a defender who is good off the ball, not a striker. Kuyt should work like crazy even if he is set to AMR position with max creative freedom and closing down set to minimum, and Ronaldo shouldn't bother a bit about defensive work even if set to ML position, max closing down and defensive mentality. Moreover, when not in possession of the ball the entire team should contract and get behind the ball - like in real life. So the formation in the tactics screen, if re-created in FM12, would have to be 4 defenders, 2 dmcs, 2 wing backs and two central midfielders because the formation displayed there is the defensive position. The attacking position would be two dmcs, two wide midfielders and two central midfielders, two wingers and two strikers. This is why defending is so bad in FM12.

* The AI squad building enhanced so that it has a plan for the future. That is, at one or more points during each season each AI club has to decide who stays and who goes and who should replace them - and the latter should be better than those leaving. Of course, the decision-making process must be more sophisticated than it is now; the manager must have the tools to know what would improve things in terms of player types related to the tactics he employ.

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love it when people complain before the game is even released, thank yourself lucky that SI believe in fixing their games unlike EA Sports, that have to be the most poisonous company on the games market

if i'm not allowed to write that SI/Sega i apologise

Yearly releases are going to cause these issues. The programmers have to make "new and exciting" things to try to visually show development, and the core of the game is often left untouched. I would rather have a game that reflects a truer reflection of a match than pretty pixels. We will have to wait and see how FM13 fares and if there really have been improvements at its core.

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Yearly releases are going to cause these issues. The programmers have to make "new and exciting" things to try to visually show development,

That's not true at all. Some things that are developed for the game take 2 or 3 years and then they put them into the game.

It's a yearly release, but things are worked on and updated over a number of years. Take for example the Match Engine and the AI, Miles has said that PaulC has spent over 2 years putting together this years match engine and AI, with large parts of the match engine being completely rewritten.

You won't see any updates to tactics this year, presumably because their still working on them. But you'll get them in FM14 if they're ready.

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* Behaviour on the pitch down to attributes, not position. In other words, if you put a D/S C who have 9 or less in all the relevant striker attributes but Off the Ball (i.e a central defender that can move off the ball) in a striker position, he will behave like a defender who is good off the ball, not a striker. Kuyt should work like crazy even if he is set to AMR position with max creative freedom and closing down set to minimum, and Ronaldo shouldn't bother a bit about defensive work even if set to ML position, max closing down and defensive mentality. Moreover, when not in possession of the ball the entire team should contract and get behind the ball - like in real life. So the formation in the tactics screen, if re-created in FM12, would have to be 4 defenders, 2 dmcs, 2 wing backs and two central midfielders because the formation displayed there is the defensive position. The attacking position would be two dmcs, two wide midfielders and two central midfielders, two wingers and two strikers. This is why defending is so bad in FM12.

* The AI squad building enhanced so that it has a plan for the future. That is, at one or more points during each season each AI club has to decide who stays and who goes and who should replace them - and the latter should be better than those leaving. Of course, the decision-making process must be more sophisticated than it is now; the manager must have the tools to know what would improve things in terms of player types related to the tactics he employ.

I agree and your ideas are clear and logic.

The last question : considering that these " issues " are part of FM since several releases, why SI has never implemented such logic improvements ?

I suspect that SI knows that but due to some internal 3D match engine limitations it is not possible to do that. I think to remember that Miles a year ago more or less stated that FM13 will be the last version using this match engine and starting from FM14 the match engine will be revamped from scratch.

I dunno why they didn't it the last year but there are things that we do not know and SI knows, like f.i. some agreements with Sega....

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What I don't understand is if there are big changes to the ME then why not wait until they are ready - one or two weeks before the demo - to highlight them? Surely something as exciting as seeing your wingers track back in 4231 would whet our appetites rather than nice animation and ball physics. I understand the game will never ever be able to recreate the real game but I'd like the issues that have come up on this forum time and time again to be addressed. If they have been addressed then why not announce that when it's 90% finished rather than upload a video that might be 70% ready. Personally, I think the ME has been improved from last year on the tactics side but nothing major has been done to it. It's an opinion based on the video.

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What I don't understand is if there are big changes to the ME then why not wait until they are ready - one or two weeks before the demo - to highlight them?

Because people want to see them now.

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Because people want to see them now.

Then we don't actually see the big changes. I can wait a week or two before the demo (since I'm going to have to wait for the demo anyway) to see the changes. At least then it would get the juices flowing. From what I saw it looked like a few tweaks here and there nothing impressive.

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* Behaviour on the pitch down to attributes, not position. In other words, if you put a D/S C who have 9 or less in all the relevant striker attributes but Off the Ball (i.e a central defender that can move off the ball) in a striker position, he will behave like a defender who is good off the ball, not a striker. Kuyt should work like crazy even if he is set to AMR position with max creative freedom and closing down set to minimum, and Ronaldo shouldn't bother a bit about defensive work even if set to ML position, max closing down and defensive mentality.

I think this is more a call for a more profound difference in individual player characteristics in the form of additional PPMs rather than on pitch behavior not down to attributes any. Kuyt for instance doesn't have a "Closes down always" PPM and a high mental attributes, which translated to the match engine mean there's little reason for him to "ignore" your instructions and charge head first regardless. For that he needed to have a "Closes down always" PPM, which doesn't exist. See Robben, no matter what you're doing, he still starts to dribble plenty, cuts inside and takes pot shots regardless of your instructions due to a couple of PPMs. I've seen players selling him because of that. As for the attributes, FM probably ain't perfect, but put somebody like Olic or Leandro Damiao in the same position and you will generally see Olic cover more ground come the end of season on average during the 90 minutes, for instance. However, the thing is that certain positions on the pitch tend to lend themselves to certain player behavior. Central defenders (or keepers, obviously) will never get to run their socks off, wingers, box-to-box midfielders (in particular those with a PPM such as "runs forward whenever possible") do. I also think that certain instructions are pretty much "locked" or nerfed for certain positions, such as forward runs and dribblings for CBs. :)

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I think this is more a call for a more profound difference in individual player characteristics in the form of additional PPMs rather than on pitch behavior not down to attributes any. Kuyt for instance doesn't have a "Closes down always" PPM and a high mental attributes, which translated to the match engine mean there's little reason for him to "ignore" your instructions and charge head first regardless. For that he needed to have a "Closes down always" PPM, which doesn't exist. See Robben, no matter what you're doing, he still starts to dribble plenty, cuts inside and takes pot shots regardless of your instructions due to a couple of PPMs. I've seen players selling him because of that. As for the attributes, FM probably ain't perfect, but put somebody like Olic or Leandro Damiao in the same position and you will generally see Olic cover more ground come the end of season on average during the 90 minutes, for instance. However, the thing is that certain positions on the pitch tend to lend themselves to certain player behavior. Central defenders (or keepers, obviously) will never get to run their socks off, wingers, box-to-box midfielders (in particular those with a PPM such as "runs forward whenever possible") do. I also think that certain instructions are pretty much "locked" or nerfed for certain positions, such as forward runs and dribblings for CBs. :)

Did you ever try to position Kuyt firs as AMR and than as MR with same instruction set? Difference is enormous. And it's the same thing with Robben, actually I think that Robben positioned as MR does more defense work than Kuyt positioned as AMR! Position just overrides players character.

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Watching real life football match, we can get some basic impression of how the ball flies and players react. Some other football games have also been developed for more than a decade, many of us also played them a lot which i don't need to mention their names. The match engine or the AI that controls the events happen on the pitch to simulate a real life football match is therefore the core part and the most difficult part. If it's not good enough, we won't play them. So the thing is the same when it comes to a football management simulation game. Early in late 1990's there were several football management games, and later up to now 2 or 3 at most football management games are playable. And just ask the question why we have been sticking with FM series. So let's just show some respect and politeness to SI for their great work. We've been playing FM all through all these years and we can see the improvements. Of course, coming to the end the problem with current ME still need to be solved. But I believe in SI and will continue to pay and play this game.

Ok, first, the player skating problem. This is a problem resides in almost every football and/or basketball simulation games. Such as, if I were allowed to name some of them, NBA live series, PES series, FIFA series. But I find it not so obvious in FM2010. I think it relates to how to simulate and calculate the players accelaration, turning their body and more sophisticated the body(legs) posture or barycenter. If it's simply simulated as a circle moving and turning around, it is ok in 2D, but when it is transferred to 3D with animations, it will cause strange visual effects like players are skating or turning their body/controlling the ball weirdly. My english is not good enough but think you know what I mean.

Then, I think the most obvious and urgent problems need to be taken care of is player movement/position and ball control. The current ME in 12.2.2 is quite good to be honest. The problem is with players positioning both in attack and defence. Especially the fullbacks and MCs. The fullbacks are shy to go forward. (Please don't tell me to change their 'Mentality' to 20) And the MC seems not receviing enough passes and passes too few. The fullbacks are usually the ones who make most passes. I think the problem is the MCs are not supporting enough to organising.

And finally there is the strange thing that it seems to have some kind of inclination in each different version. And there is a folder named "tables" in the game installation directory under the folder "data", you can find 8 mdt files in it. I don't know what are (in) these files and I'm not a programmer and I dno't mean to pry into something which I don't have the ability. But I do try to replace them with the ones in older versions, and find the ME performances become different. I actually tried many different combinations to try to find a best one which makes the match looks more realistic to me. I've been trying this from 2010. And I can feel the inclinations from each different versions which some of them are quite realistic but unfortunately they are not appearing in the single combination at a same time. It has nothing to do with tactics. I think they are some basic default parameters relating to movements, passsing/shooting angles/distances, ball control options, etc. which you can read just from the file names.

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Then, I think the most obvious and urgent problems need to be taken care of is player movement/position and ball control. The current ME in 12.2.2 is quite good to be honest. The problem is with players positioning both in attack and defence. Especially the fullbacks and MCs. The fullbacks are shy to go forward. (Please don't tell me to change their 'Mentality' to 20) And the MC seems not receviing enough passes and passes too few. The fullbacks are usually the ones who make most passes. I think the problem is the MCs are not supporting enough to organising.

Have them learn "Gets Forward Whenever Possible" PPM. :)

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So, it's since the release of the first video about match engine that people raised up their rants and complaints about defensive movements. Appropriate. But a match engine is not a good defensive movement only.

Will we see again the outrageous average of 3/4 woodwork per game? (i have exaggerated on purpose, but the average is still too high and not so far from it)

Will strikers having 20 on finishing and 20 on composure keep missing easy goals on empty net? Will they keep shooting land-air rockets on goalie's face in 1-to-1 chances?

Will we keep seeing matches with this stats: human player 30 shots, 18 on target; computer 2 shots, 1 on target. Result: 1-1.?

Will we keep seeing short passages hitting team mates on their backs of feet giving a free chance for a counter attack to the opponent?

Thanks :)

Anyone from the ME Staff could please answer to this? thanks :)

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Implementing 3D to begin with was a move from niche audience to Farmville crowd. Deserve all the criticism they get for it.

The ME in terms of how the game plays out is all I care about, so will see what it's like in the demo. But have never been disappointed with a demo version ME yet.

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Have them learn "Gets Forward Whenever Possible" PPM. :)

Well actually in some combinations players do learn "Never get forward" even when possible PPM. :)

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I would like to see players more closed up.

I know many improvement have been done for FM13 for the animations, but it would be great to see them properly and analyse each player by seing them from near.

Maybe licence problem to be solved in the futur...

Or maybe enough distance camera to hide non perfect graphics, God know, I meant Si knows !

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I understand the position that work is continuing on this and that these clips are "old" but if work has been going on for 2 years and major changes have occurred that will silence most of the people who want a Barcelona style or 3 at the back I think SI would have put that video out. There is no reason to put out underwhelming videos that have to be defended and justified instead of holding off and showing the real match engine. The current SI statements amount to "this isnt the real engine so dont take it too seriously." If people were going to be blown away by the improvements SI would be highlighting that instead of the new game modes.

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