SI Staff PaulC Posted September 13, 2012 SI Staff Share Posted September 13, 2012 People are never going to be happy with the match engine. And that includes myself! ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 And that includes myself!;-) Paul why can't you just tell us if you have found that most of the bugs from fm12 ME has been fixed or don't you know yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdorf Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Watch the video again - listen for the part about completely overhauling the match engine and AI. Oh, sorry. I was going from what I saw and the match engine didn't look like it had been overhauled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 PaulC said in another thread the videos were old and more work has been done since then. Hopefully, more videos will be uploaded with more up to date match engine and ai video caps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grep Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Reading here and there I wonder if the game can be released before Xmas or not...and BTW why so late this year ? Usually we had it between October and November.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Last year it was early November. They're not bound by other release dates. They are saying before Christmas which could be between today and 24 December. They'll only release it when it's ready. Saying before Christmas gives them wiggle room I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 They always say Xmas release but it's mostly beginning of November and sometimes end of October I dot see it being any different Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejay Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I totally agree with what you just said. I'd rather an overhaul than just adding tweaks here and there. I'd love my wingers to really track back in a 4321 formation or to press/close-down the opposition in packs. One day, eh? After watching the video, I personally am far from impressed. I was far from impressed with the implementation of 3D match cameras back in 2009, and haven't used them in either of the three following releases. I use the classic 2D so I understand that my stance is very much in the minority, and the majority of Sports Interactive's customers want a solid Football Management sim, but with great 3D graphics - they don't get bogged down into too much tactical intricities, so therefore won't be irked by the flaws in the match engine in pressing or the inability to play a back three or liberio. This is where I stand, what Miles said in the video is all well and good, but I couldn't help but want to him to explain in depth how the match engine has been overhauled to allow for greater tactical control and AI challenge - but it just didn't come. Just more and more shiney, new features that add nothing the actual challenge of the game for me. I'd give the example of continuing to paint a run down shed. You have an old shed, with cracks in the woodwork, but go out an give it lots of new coats of pain - you don't have a new shed, you have an old shed that that looks good, it still leaks, and is still liable to been blown away in a strong wind! What I'd love to see is a new release that really overhauled the match engine in a way that it is a lot more accurate to how football is played, rather than adding glossy new features that appear to add something to the game, despite being cosmetic and lacking depth. I can live with the ball not curling, or not getting caught in the wind, or Per Metersaker appearing to tower over Aaron Lennon - what will really tire me is an inability to play a back three that works properly, for my team to press united as a collective group, center half moving into the channels, center midfielders dropping into the back line, I could go on.. I understand the majority of people aren't too fussed in regard to such deficiencies mentioned there, and play the game where they just love to take Havant & Waterloville to numerous Champions League in wonderful 3D fashion - and they are the guys who are going to be impressed by new glossy, polishing the turd features - and go out and buy the game. I understand that if SI came out an said we haven't worked on what the game looks like, but we've overhauled how the game and AI plays they obviously wouldn't sell as many games, which is their business to do, because the majority of people won't have their heads turned. Saying this, I hope I'm wrong, and it's a case that certain things haven't been mentioned in the podcast, and they have been worked on, because FM is a great game and FM13 will no doubt be a game where I waste more countless hours and SI do undeniably great work, and that such relatively small things annoy so much because the bar has been set so high. I'm eager to view future podcasts, and hear about more improvements to the next release, and hopefully I can get a tad more excited in the coming weeks. Totally agree as well, one of the main reasons for me to play fm was always to try and recreate my vision of football, or to try to replicate how teams play in real life. There just aren't enough tactical or training options to do that right now, so I was hoping for something new in that regard. Sadly nothing like this was mentioned, just visual improvements i couldn't care less about. I mean lets be real, the graphics of this game were and will never be the main point of attraction, even with improvements the graphics look very much out of place in a game from 2012. But that's alright because fascination and addictiveness of this game comes from somewhere else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Nothing has been mentioned yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSH Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Please do remember that all the video footage is very much work in progress. Thanks Please stop saying that. What we see is usually what we get in the end when we are only 2 months from release. That's just marketing talk to make people think that it will be improved in the end and not minding the obvious faults. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 That's a silly statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSH Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I don't understand where are the MASSIVE engine overhauls. Really, what did that video show? I mean, where are they? One look at the defence positioning and I was scratching my head to see the improvements. It was really awful. The ball, on the other hand, does seem to have better physics and the players seem to move better. But MASSIVE? As in... A.I. MASSIVE? Why not show us? I just don't get it. And please don't tell me it's a work in a progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSH Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 That's a silly statement. That's what companies do. Get over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 That's a silly statement. Indeed, finding out for ourselves how well the match engine has been done requires getting hold of the demo and playing through. If I recall correctly, demo is released when the game goes gold? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted September 13, 2012 SI Staff Share Posted September 13, 2012 I don't understand where are the MASSIVE engine overhauls. Really, what did that video show? I mean, where are they? One look at the defence positioning and I was scratching my head to see the improvements. It was really awful. The ball, on the other hand, does seem to have better physics and the players seem to move better. But MASSIVE? As in... A.I. MASSIVE? Why not show us? I just don't get it. And please don't tell me it's a work in a progress. My advice to you? Play the demo when it comes out and come back and do your usual thing afterwards. Cheers, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart91 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Please stop saying that. What we see is usually what we get in the end when we are only 2 months from release.That's just marketing talk to make people think that it will be improved in the end and not minding the obvious faults. Thanks. Not a silly statement at all, from what I understand some of the features have been in development for over a period of two years. The game is so close to release that surely there should only be little tweaks and adjustments to the match engine and not significant changes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yeh - the tweaks happened year to year. The match engine has been in in redevelopment for 2 years and is implemented to FM13. It's not just tweaks, it's whole chunks completely rewritten. And the videos show early development, and it's been improved on sice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart91 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I am talking in regards from the period now to release, not year to year. How do you know the match engine has improved since, do you have a copy of FM13? TSH has a point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoffster Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 In a video entitled "Match Engine", there is sadly little more than one minute spent talking about actual improvements to the match engine, things that actually make a difference to the game. Paul's been hard at work overhauling it for two years- and it is one of the most important developments for FM13- so surely it's only right to give it the prominence it deserves? I guess the point is that cameras, stadia, body scaling and head tracking are lovely and all, but they're cosmetic changes that ultimately make no difference to the gameplay whatsoever.As for the clips, I'm happy to accept the footage is still very early and a WIP, so will cut the poor defending a lot of slack and recognise it's far from the finished article. I do, of course, eagerly await more- ideally a full-length match so we can judge for ourselves- but it still baffles me that this is being skirted around and talked about in the vaguest of terms, especially if the bar has been raised "way, way higher". As something that affects every player of the game, regardless of mode, network or play style, this is one of the most important parts of FM13. This. The match engine hasn't been progressing as well as it should. For some inexplicable reason it takes a back seat to minor features. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoffster Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 My advice to you? Play the demo when it comes out and come back and do your usual thing afterwards.Cheers, Paul In his defence Paul people have been asking for improvements to the defending for years and nothing of note has happened. The WIP (the cynic says near final) ME videos we see show poor defending. It's not filling people with confidence... For example in the video where the attacker runs from deep to score - the defender nearest to him runs back towards the halfway line just before he shoots. The logic here is baffling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 In his defence Paul people have been asking for improvements to the defending for years and nothings happened.The WIP (the cynic says near final) ME videos we see show poor defending. It's not filling people with confidence... Short of playing the demo, how do we know? Hence Paul's point: play the demo and then judge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted September 13, 2012 SI Staff Share Posted September 13, 2012 Well we've been trying to improve the ME each update and I hope in general we have succeeded. For me, I am never really "happy" with it, but that isnt for lack of effort. By the way putting more people on the ME and away from other features would be chaotic. We currently have a tight knit team working on it and that for me is the way it should stay. But it will never be "finished" as its so open ended plus everyone has their own view on what works and what doesnt. And I know its a cliche but at the end of the day if you don't like it you are under no obligation to buy it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProjectSportsHD Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 SI should of never developed a 3D engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibby123 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 If Gary Neville with his tippy tappy touch screen HD replays is not hologrammed on to my computer desk giving me advice on where I'm going wrong I ain't buying . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProjectSportsHD Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 If Gary Neville with his tippy tappy touch screen HD replays is not hologrammed on to my computer desk giving me advice on where I'm going wrong I ain't buying . It's work in progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlm_77 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Think some of you think FM should almost be like watching a real life match. It's a game, a very, very good game. How anyone can make statements about it looking poor without playing it first is being a bit dramatic. While I'm sure the video for the ME is something pretty close to what we'll end up with in FM13, clearly there are a few issues that I'm sure will be ironed out. Personally, I'm happy to wait for the demo and then judge but first opinion is it looks a lot better than last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibby123 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 It's work in progress. Best it is. Real managers get that. I want it. Now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawlore Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Well we've been trying to improve the ME each update and I hope in general we have succeeded. For me, I am never really "happy" with it, but that isnt for lack of effort. I would sincerely hope nobody would accuse you and your team of a lack of effort. While it does have flaws that some seem to delight in pointing out, it is still far and away the best engine of its type, and that shouldn't be forgotten. And, again, while people are free to make their minds up on the new ME once they've experienced it first-hand, I'm sure that time and effort will be noticeable. So for that, let me take a moment to say thank you. The issue, for me at least, is the way in which the information is being conveyed. The ME is a big part of the game, that will affect all players of FM. And yet, even in its own video, it's playing second fiddle to graphical and visual developments. Considering other videos have so far focussed on niche (Network, Leaderboard, FMC) or cosmetic (Matchday UI) elements, this is part of the guts of the game. I trust you, I believe you when you say there have been strides made, and I understand your point about it never being perfect. It won't ever be perfect, and I'm just as sure there'll be a raft of new complaints about it. None of that changes its importance as a central part of the game, particularly as the overhaul is following two years of development. Yet because it's not big, sexy or brand spanking new, it feels like it's being glossed over and treated as an afterthought. Yes, there are a lot more videos to come, so perhaps there will be more detail provided. But this one was entitled "Match Engine"- as far as we know, this could just as easily be all the information we get on it until the demo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I would sincerely hope nobody would accuse you and your team of a lack of effort. While it does have flaws that some seem to delight in pointing out, it is still far and away the best engine of its type, and that shouldn't be forgotten. And, again, while people are free to make their minds up on the new ME once they've experienced it first-hand, I'm sure that time and effort will be noticeable. So for that, let me take a moment to say thank you.The issue, for me at least, is the way in which the information is being conveyed. The ME is a big part of the game, that will affect all players of FM. And yet, even in its own video, it's playing second fiddle to graphical and visual developments. Considering other videos have so far focussed on niche (Network, Leaderboard, FMC) or cosmetic (Matchday UI) elements, this is part of the guts of the game. I trust you, I believe you when you say there have been strides made, and I understand your point about it never being perfect. It won't ever be perfect, and I'm just as sure there'll be a raft of new complaints about it. None of that changes its importance as a central part of the game, particularly as the overhaul is following two years of development. Yet because it's not big, sexy or brand spanking new, it feels like it's being glossed over and treated as an afterthought. Yes, there are a lot more videos to come, so perhaps there will be more detail provided. But this one was entitled "Match Engine"- as far as we know, this could just as easily be all the information we get on it until the demo. I agree with you in that felt like it was presented in a somewhat underwhelming manner, hopefully there will be more info. But I've always found the best way to judge is through the demo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoffster Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Short of playing the demo, how do we know? Hence Paul's point: play the demo and then judge. My point was nothing has happened in previous editions FM11/12 for example. From the looks of it there isn't much done in 13 either based on the videos we've seen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 My point was nothing has happened in previous editions FM11/12. From the looks of it there isn't much done in 13 either based on the videos we've seen Well as they have said twice, they are the biggest changes since 2009, changes they have been working on for the last two years. Something that you cant make a decision on how far they have gone on based on a tiny video. The only way to really see how they changed it is through the demo. thats when we can really make an informed decision as to whether the changes are big enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoffster Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 By the way putting more people on the ME and away from other features would be chaotic. We currently have a tight knit team working on it and that for me is the way it should stay. Oh I totally understand that. Throwing more bodies at it is not how to go about it. I make a living as a programmer and have seen this happen before and it's not nice. My point is we are always asked for feedback and there are numerous posts for years now saying the defending needs improved. I'm yet to see one that says we should make the ball curl better. The prioritisation of the workload seems all wrong and it makes you stop giving feedback as you feel it's being ignored. Can you understand why it gets frustrating in this case? It basically stops you from playing the game a certain (defensive) way as there are so many inexplicable decisions from the defensive part of the ME. After a very quick search in GQ: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/313533-4-pictures-that-sum-up-everything-that-is-wrong-with-the-defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/303179-Hilariously-illogical-defending-378-098?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/300936-Shocking-standard-of-defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/292708-defending-just-awful...-could-it-be-a-bug?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/291483-defending-and-defensive-behaviour-just-awful?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/260164-Defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/248515-Playground-Defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/246383-Defending-Marking?highlight=Defending If you want to just browse some of the thread titles, heres the search results: http://community.sigames.com/search.php?searchid=766006 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pewa2303 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 issues since fm 2010: - too much wookworks (1.0 per game) - too much easy goals from corners (near/far post) - too much CCs resulting from poor defending - no goals from DFKs - wall positioning DFKs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Oh I totally understand that. Throwing more bodies at it is not how to go about it. I make a living as a programmer and have seen this happen before and it's not nice. My point is we are always asked for feedback and there are numerous posts for years now saying the defending needs improved. I'm yet to see one that says we should make the ball curl better. The prioritisation of the workload seems all wrong and it makes you stop giving feedback as you feel it's being ignored.Can you understand why it gets frustrating in this case? It basically stops you from playing the game a certain (defensive) way as there are so many inexplicable decisions from the defensive part of the ME. After a very quick search in GQ: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/313533-4-pictures-that-sum-up-everything-that-is-wrong-with-the-defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/303179-Hilariously-illogical-defending-378-098?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/300936-Shocking-standard-of-defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/292708-defending-just-awful...-could-it-be-a-bug?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/291483-defending-and-defensive-behaviour-just-awful?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/260164-Defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/248515-Playground-Defending?highlight=Defending http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/246383-Defending-Marking?highlight=Defending If you want to just browse some of the thread titles, heres the search results: http://community.sigames.com/search.php?searchid=766006 Ball physics is certainly related to defending. The ball in FM pre-12 does not slow down due to air resistance. This means that the reaction time for defenders on a through ball would have to be zero if they were to intercept it. In reality, any pass over 20 meters is either easy to intercept or so hard that it would need to be millimeter precise in order to hit its target and not just blast past him. This is very difficult to do in reality, and easy in FM pre-12. Surely realistic ball physics will help defenders immensely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Ball physics is certainly related to defending. The ball in FM pre-12 does not slow down due to air resistance. This means that the reaction time for defenders on a through ball would have to be zero if they were to intercept it. In reality, any pass over 20 meters is either easy to intercept or so hard that it would need to be millimeter precise in order to hit its target and not just blast past him. This is very difficult to do in reality, and easy in FM pre-12. Surely realistic ball physics will help defenders immensely. Definitely, ball physics affect a great deal of the play, and getting them right is a vital next step in the match engine, so its good to see that its been done. Looking forward to the ME changelist to see what .else has been worked on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted September 14, 2012 SI Staff Share Posted September 14, 2012 We have had a beta test of the new match engine going for some weeks now, as well as our own internal testing, so rest assured that all issues found are being taken seriously. Dont read too much into the video; its fairly old and we have made plenty of improvements both in terms of AI and animation since it was made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 issues since fm 2010:- no goals from DFKs This is no cherry picking but shots from the last season I finished on maximum match detail for those leagues I simulated in full detail: http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16027086/fk4.png.html http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16027078/fk1.png.html http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16027078/fk1.png.html http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16027082/fk3.png.html There may be slightly fewer goals from direct free kicks on average, than in real football. Sometimes you even get many many more teams not scoring any. But remember that the ME is meant to recreate a realistic match of football, rather than the glorified version that is popularized by FIFA or PES, where every time Cristiano Ronaldo steps up to kick it he actually hits it. Looks cool, but reality doesn't bear that out. As for the video, that was too brief to judge anything. The bar presumably has ben raised "way, WAY higher". There is an old rule that goes: Show, don't tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grep Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 We have had a beta test of the new match engine going for some weeks now, as well as our own internal testing, so rest assured that all issues found are being taken seriously.Dont read too much into the video; its fairly old and we have made plenty of improvements both in terms of AI and animation since it was made. Paul, it is pretty obvious that people comment on what we can see so if the the 3d match footage is old but it has been published, we have to comment on the only thing that we can see. My humble suggestion is to answer with a new footage, this way counts better than hundreds words IMO. Anyway we appreciate your efforts, that's for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Äktsjon Männ Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Indeed. Why show us a footage that is 'fairly old' and shouldn't be paid attention to? Just show us an up to date clip of ME in motion. The videos released so far are far from encouraging. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted September 14, 2012 SI Staff Share Posted September 14, 2012 All we are saying is that we've made improvements since the clip was made. We've made improvements since yesterday and will make more over the weekend. 99.9% of our customers who see that video will not micro-analyse it, but I am grateful for the enthusiasm on here in doing so. All I have been doing is commenting on people's feedback, and when its constructive I will be constructive. I dont know if there will be a new updated video or not before the Gold demo at this stage. I certainly dont have time to make one and deal with all the legal stuff that goes with releasing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maystor Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Damn, I was hoping for some more ME footage before the demo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hursty2 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The new video is looking good, more crosses! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikulec Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 In that new vid, is that an indirect free kick in the penalty box at 0:18? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityAndColour Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Speaking of ball physics, I am hoping the ball from defence that doesn't slow down on its journey forward will be eliminated entirely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flogside Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Seriously, why does everyone insist on complaining even though they game has yet to be released? Wait for the demo, if you dont like it or feel the improvements are not up to scratch then just dont buy the game. Its not difficult is it. Go try another football management game. Ive personally not found any that comes close so far. And no, im not a fanboy incase anyone asks, just get fed up with all threads about new releases turning into a whining and moaning thread, its ridiculous. And breathe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyzer Soze Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 In that new vid, is that an indirect free kick in the penalty box at 0:18? It looks like one! Brilliant!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
englandmanager Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 love it when people complain before the game is even released, thank yourself lucky that SI believe in fixing their games unlike EA Sports, that have to be the most poisonous company on the games market if i'm not allowed to write that SI/Sega i apologise Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityAndColour Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 If they're going to release videos before the product is released, then criticism is inevitable and to be expected. Otherwise they may as well keep everything secret until the demo. Don't be so sensitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grep Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I take the chance to make a question related to the ME. Will FM13 have the possibility to see in the ME a player dribbling another one ? Thx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maystor Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Oh, I didn't realise there was another ME video. Some of the animations look nice and the ball physics are definitely improved But players still don't feel connected to the ground and are just gliding around, the animations are "disjointed" and don't flow well together at all. It stands out even more now that the other areas have improved. Looks extremely unnatural. I am now of the opinion that SI will never fix this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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