SI/Sega Greed on Australians.

[davidbowie]

Well it appears there has been some movement on the issue. As a result of this? I don't know. But the game has dropped on Steam AU store down $10 to $80. So we only have to pay twice as much as the US does, not twice and a bit.

[Jibby123]

Maybe the Aus economy has taken a downturn in the last 24hrs that you're not aware of yet. Be worried. That's (wo)men in suits for you.

[nick1408]

@nick1408,

Could you please post the email with the html tags so i could add the links in the text like yours?

I would also add a link to this thread, to show them that other people are not happy about this.

I linked this thread. Not sure how to do the HTML tags. I just copied and pasted the email from Windows Mail.

What was the email you used for Steam? Sent a copy to SEGA, but agree Steam should get one as well.

The Steam Support page. I just copied and pasted the email into their form, changing the relevant parts. Unfortunately the links don't copy accross.

Great email, but doesn't the ACCC regulate nation wide infractions whereas Steam server is technically based in US?

To be honest, not really 100% sure but the website states

The ACCC promotes competition and fair trade in the market place to benefit consumers, business and the community. It also regulates national infrastructure industries. Its primary responsibility is to ensure that individuals and businesses comply with the Commonwealth's competition, fair trading and consumer protection laws

. In my opinion they are there to raise complaints to if Sega/Steam don't reply.

[Luckz]

I'd say if the price is specifically set for AU customers (and it is), then it is the ACCC's business no matter where the company setting those prices is legally located?

Then again, I'm over here in sunny Germany :3

Also, emailing Steam over this is entirely pointless. Don't bother. SEGA or their AU subsidiary/partner set those prices, both on Steam and on GG.

Is http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-FM2013/football-manager-2013 still $90 in AU or has it been lowered down to $80 too?

[Lower Leagues Rule]

It is $US40 in NZ on Gamers Gate, not sure in Aus.

[Luckz]

Don't forget the 25% store credit you get for an effective $30 price

Well, an Aussie showed me a screenshot of it being $90 on GamersGate and I also put that in my overview post, so..

I edited in what you said about the NZ price though.

[Ryknow]

I'd say if the price is specifically set for AU customers (and it is), then it is the ACCC's business no matter where the company setting those prices is legally located?

Then again, I'm over here in sunny Germany :3

Also, emailing Steam over this is entirely pointless. Don't bother. SEGA or their AU subsidiary/partner set those prices, both on Steam and on GG.

Is http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-FM2013/football-manager-2013 still $90 in AU or has it been lowered down to $80 too?

Clicking on that link shows $89.99 if that's what you mean.

[Luckz]

Clicking on that link shows $89.99 if that's what you mean.

Yes, so the Steam price has been reduced to $80 while the GG price is still at $90. :3

Edited my post accordingly.

[dsch]

Re: Miles' reply. Once again SI shoots self in the foot. Would it have killed to say you sympathise with the fans' concerns and will try to look into it? I would have thought that was basic PR management. Put that alongside the complaints about piracy, the stubborn price point for FMH (and the reaction to that being pointed out), the whole unpleasant business with the Tactics guides, and probably some other things I'm forgetting, and there really seems to be a rather patchy record on the PR front. SI hasn't suffered much because this is still pretty much a captive audience, one which is furthermore often not in touch with general trends and concerns in PC gaming, but, really, a bit of tact doesn't cost anything and can go a long way.

[themadsheep2001]

I linked this thread. Not sure how to do the HTML tags. I just copied and pasted the email from Windows Mail.

The Steam Support page. I just copied and pasted the email into their form, changing the relevant parts. Unfortunately the links don't copy accross.

To be honest, not really 100% sure but the website states . In my opinion they are there to raise complaints to if Sega/Steam don't reply.

Cheers, I've passed the email you wrote onto a few friends to push to SEGA et al. Hopefully it will get you guys somewhere, because thats a crazy price. At least there are other cheaper sources, but still needs to be looked at.

[jabso22]

Re: Miles' reply. Once again SI shoots self in the foot. Would it have killed to say you sympathise with the fans' concerns and will try to look into it? I would have thought that was basic PR management. Put that alongside the complaints about piracy, the stubborn price point for FMH (and the reaction to that being pointed out), the whole unpleasant business with the Tactics guides, and probably some other things I'm forgetting, and there really seems to be a rather patchy record on the PR front. SI hasn't suffered much because this is still pretty much a captive audience, one which is furthermore often not in touch with general trends and concerns in PC gaming, but, really, a bit of tact doesn't cost anything and can go a long way.

Very well put. Agree with everything you said.

[jabso22]

How do I get in contact with Five Star Games? Can't even find a site for them.

[-T-]

I'm likely to buy the game from one of the alternative options linked, however I will not be buying the multiple copies I usually do to give to friends. Typically I'd buy the game 4 times, as friends have birthdays near the typical launch time it works out perfect, plus 1 copy for my dad. This year at this price I will not be buying directly from steam, and I'm not sure they gmg codes can be used the same as gifting a game on steam

[davidbowie]

How do I get in contact with Five Star Games? Can't even find a site for them.

Funny that. Clearly Sega and SI just want us all to shut up and pay our doubled game costs without complaint.

[Ackter]

I'm likely to buy the game from one of the alternative options linked, however I will not be buying the multiple copies I usually do to give to friends. Typically I'd buy the game 4 times, as friends have birthdays near the typical launch time it works out perfect, plus 1 copy for my dad. This year at this price I will not be buying directly from steam, and I'm not sure they gmg codes can be used the same as gifting a game on steam

If you bought 4 codes, you'd probably have to give them the codes to input themselves.

I don't think you'd be able to input the codes and then gift them to other accounts.

[ChrisNUFC]

If you bought 4 codes, you'd probably have to give them the codes to input themselves.

I don't think you'd be able to input the codes and then gift them to other accounts.

Buy as Gift Option on Steam.

[Ackter]

How do I get in contact with Five Star Games? Can't even find a site for them.

According to the press release when it was announced, 5 Star's distribution is being managed in conjuncture with Sega Europe, so I'd suggest using https://support.sega.co.uk/home and asking them.

I can't find 5 Star's website either.

[Ackter]

Buy as Gift Option on Steam.

Not if you don't buy through Steam, which was the point of his question.

[nick1408]

Sega Europe is the one I emailed.

[tom_numbers]

If I were being told I suddenly had to pay £60 for FM2013

But there are other, cheaper retailers!

[Miles Jacobson]

Re: Miles' reply. Once again SI shoots self in the foot. Would it have killed to say you sympathise with the fans' concerns and will try to look into it? I would have thought that was basic PR management. Put that alongside the complaints about piracy, the stubborn price point for FMH (and the reaction to that being pointed out), the whole unpleasant business with the Tactics guides, and probably some other things I'm forgetting, and there really seems to be a rather patchy record on the PR front. SI hasn't suffered much because this is still pretty much a captive audience, one which is furthermore often not in touch with general trends and concerns in PC gaming, but, really, a bit of tact doesn't cost anything and can go a long way.

I don't see the point of telling lies - hence my statement. The pricing is not down to us, at all, so me "looking into it" isn't going to do any good. Beyond sending an email pointing out the concerns of customers in Australia (which I'd already done well before this thread popped up) there's nothing else I can do, so why would I say otherwise?

[rebelutionist]

I don't see the point of telling lies - hence my statement. The pricing is not down to us, at all, so me "looking into it" isn't going to do any good. Beyond sending an email pointing out the concerns of customers in Australia (which I'd already done well before this thread popped up) there's nothing else I can do, so why would I say otherwise?

Miles, thank you for responding here, I and many others appreciate it sincerely.

The only issue I have at the moment is that I find it hard to accept that you and SI are only capable of an email with regards to this matter. You and SI have gone public with the anti-piracy campaign in a fierce manner. I'd love to see something similar be done regarding this. Surely SI is in a position to provide a perspective/opinion on this so that articles are written about it and the public becomes more aware, causing all of us and SI to lobby together. Using your social media resources and outlets as well as your position in this matter, I'm certain SI can help with creating awareness, if nothing else. But a single email? Come on Miles.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[nick1408]

I don't see the point of telling lies - hence my statement. The pricing is not down to us, at all, so me "looking into it" isn't going to do any good. Beyond sending an email pointing out the concerns of customers in Australia (which I'd already done well before this thread popped up) there's nothing else I can do, so why would I say otherwise?

Thanks for sending an email to Sega as well. I wouldn't have bothered if I knew that earlier, I would have just waited for the response to you. I guess you haven't heard anything yet. I won't expect anything until I hear that you have received a response.Thanks for at least going out of your way to write an email. I'm sure a lot of company bosses wouldn't have bothered.

[Miles Jacobson]

Thanks for sending an email to Sega as well. I wouldn't have bothered if I knew that earlier, I would have just waited for the response to you. I guess you haven't heard anything yet. I won't expect anything until I hear that you have received a response.Thanks for at least going out of your way to write an email. I'm sure a lot of company bosses wouldn't have bothered.

I doubt I'll get one, unless the pricing is changed. Which it seems to have been already without my knowledge.

[Miles Jacobson]

Miles, thank you for responding here, I and many others appreciate it sincerely.

The only issue I have at the moment is that I find it hard to accept that you and SI are only capable of an email with regards to this matter. You and SI have gone public with the anti-piracy campaign in a fierce manner. I'd love to see something similar be done regarding this. Surely SI is in a position to provide a perspective/opinion on this so that articles are written about it and the public becomes more aware, causing all of us and SI to lobby together. Using your social media resources and outlets as well as your position in this matter, I'm certain SI can help with creating awareness, if nothing else. But a single email? Come on Miles.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

I don't live in Australia, so it's not my fight. Same way as my disgust at the price of Tim Tam's in the UK isn't your fight. I've already done what I can.

[Luckz]

This year at this price I will not be buying directly from steam, and I'm not sure they gmg codes can be used the same as gifting a game on steam

If you buy the game multiple times from non-Steam websites, you'd end up with Steam keys that the involved parties would have to enter into Steam individually.

However, GMG for one limit you to buying a game once; you might be able to arrange multiple purchases if you talk to their customer support. If you send a ticket now, you should receive an answer before the cut-off date for the 25% discount. Do keep in mind that GMG discount codes usually also only work once per customer, so you'd really have to tell them that you want to buy four identical games with the same discount coupon.

[Ackter]

I've asked the guys over at GMG and unfortunately you can only have one copy per GMG account

[dsch]

I don't live in Australia, so it's not my fight. Same way as my disgust at the price of Tim Tam's in the UK isn't your fight. I've already done what I can.

As a matter of smart (not to mention decent) business practice, one would like one's customers to feel valued. This is achieved firstly by doing all one is able, which I see you have already done, but also by expressing sympathy and pledging solidarity with one's customers. To throw one's hands up and declare that it's simply 'not my fight' seems counterproductive, and the comparison with the price of Tim Tam's (whatever those are) is quite inapt, since you and the complaining Australian are not random strangers who have nothing to do with each other, but you have a relationship based on custom. I would not normally reply, but I feel someone needs to point out the quite staggering insensitivity demonstrated in this post, which seems to speak to the disregard and lack of appreciation in certain parts of SI for the kind of customer goodwill and brand loyalty they have that other companies would do everything to cultivate.

Perhaps, to put things in a positive light, one might think of the potential here for great publicity if SI do come out against price disparity. SI would be feted by the greater gaming community and journalists, which usually think of FM as quite a niche game. Food for thought.

[rebelutionist]

I don't live in Australia, so it's not my fight. Same way as my disgust at the price of Tim Tam's in the UK isn't your fight. I've already done what I can.

Wow mate, after reading that many times, I found it difficult to bring myself to respond. I may be misinterpreting the tone, but that came across as a big "P**s Off" to Australians and New Zealanders. I feel helpless, but, emotions aside, here goes nothing:

1. "I don't live in Australia, so it's not my fight." - You produce a game that is sold in Australia and New Zealand, you don't have to live there to have some responsibility for it. You don't live in Turkey either, but obviously you felt it was your fight there, considering (as you claim), that you/SI are not responsible for sales at all. The lack of logic in this is staggering.

2. RE: Tim Tam's. - I can see what you are trying to say, however, I don't manufacture, produce, distribute, sell nor have anything to do with Tim Tam's other than being a consumer like yourself. If I was the CEO of Arnott's your point may have some standing. If it makes any difference, please raise your concern to Arnott's and/or their UK distributors and I'll gladly help in any way I can whether it be emails, petitions, whatever.

3. "I've already done what I can." - This, I feel, is truthful. I can see that from your personal perspective, you've done what you can and I thank you for it. Really, I genuinely thank you. I am of the opinion that SI as a company, however, can do more (and should, to be honest).

But alas, I am just one man, and unfortunately I'm not spartan...*sigh*.

[Jibby123]

To be fair Miles doesn't have to say anything except direct you to Sega and ignore everything thereafter. Or just ignore the thread anyway.

That would be worse. At least he's engaging in some kind of response. And risking an arse spanking from the suits if he doesn't watch his words.

Suits are the problem. Greed, profit. Not the product. Always get impression Miles is for the game first.

But I know nothing, but at least he's responding. Too many don't bother on vid games.

[Miles Jacobson]

Perhaps, to put things in a positive light, one might think of the potential here for great publicity if SI do come out against price disparity. SI would be feted by the greater gaming community and journalists, which usually think of FM as quite a niche game. Food for thought.

The problem with this is that price disparity is a way of life. Electronics in the UK are more expensive than they are in China, Japan or the USA. So are CD's. So are games. When I go to Europe, everything is more expensive at the moment due to the exchange rate. For people coming to the UK, it's cheaper now because of the same exchange rate. When I used to visit Oz, with an exchange rate of 3:1, it was REALLY cheap. With the exchange rate the way it is now, I can't afford to go there.

It's the same with different markets - I've seen a few times on here about the price in the US compared to other countries, but as I mentioned elsewhere, in the USA the game is released at budget price. In virtually every other country, it's not a budget release. So a lot of the discussion on here has been involving comparing Apples to Oranges.

You also have to take into account taxes, wages, cost of doing business etc etc.

Now, if the discussion was purely one of digital vs boxed goods, then that's something I have an opinion on. But whilst retail are still the dominant force in video games sales, with the customers preferring to buy from retail rather than digital, it's a pointless argument.

Looking at prices of other games in the region, there's no disparity. JB Hifi sell PC games from $70 - $100 depending on the title, and FM13 is within that price range.

[Miles Jacobson]

Wow mate, after reading that many times, I found it difficult to bring myself to respond. I may be misinterpreting the tone, but that came across as a big "P**s Off" to Australians and New Zealanders. I feel helpless, but, emotions aside, here goes nothing:

1. "I don't live in Australia, so it's not my fight." - You produce a game that is sold in Australia and New Zealand, you don't have to live there to have some responsibility for it. You don't live in Turkey either, but obviously you felt it was your fight there, considering (as you claim), that you/SI are not responsible for sales at all. The lack of logic in this is staggering.

2. RE: Tim Tam's. - I can see what you are trying to say, however, I don't manufacture, produce, distribute, sell nor have anything to do with Tim Tam's other than being a consumer like yourself. If I was the CEO of Arnott's your point may have some standing. If it makes any difference, please raise your concern to Arnott's and/or their UK distributors and I'll gladly help in any way I can whether it be emails, petitions, whatever.

3. "I've already done what I can." - This, I feel, is truthful. I can see that from your personal perspective, you've done what you can and I thank you for it. Really, I genuinely thank you. I am of the opinion that SI as a company, however, can do more (and should, to be honest).

But alas, I am just one man, and unfortunately I'm not spartan...*sigh*.

1) Piracy is a very different issue to pricing between one country & another.

2) I don't manufacture, distribute or sell Football Manager. SEGA and their distribution partners do.

You think SI as a company can do more. I am of the opinion that if price disparity is bad in Australia, as it seems that you are claiming based on the pricing of full price PC software in the country, then that's something for you to take up with the local businesses there & your government to find out why. Same way as I would, if it really mattered to me, go to Arnott's UK distributor to ask why Tim Tam's are so expensive (which is actually very simple - they're imported from Australia, which costs extra money)

[William Hall]

When I used to visit Oz, with an exchange rate of 3:1, it was REALLY cheap. With the exchange rate the way it is now, I can't afford to go there.

Um, this is our point.

The shoe is on the other foot now. We now have a strong currency yet the same old pricing remains.

In 2005, a price of $90 would have been worth around 36 pounds, it in 2012 is now worth 58 pounds. In the UK FM13 is slated to be at 30 pounds according to http://www.steamprices.com/uk/search?Football+Manager+2013

You think SI as a company can do more. I am of the opinion that if price disparity is bad in Australia, as it seems that you are claiming based on the pricing of full price PC software in the country, then that's something for you to take up with the local businesses there & your government to find out why.

The Australian solution is not to reduce prices domestically but is to somehow artificially inflate online prices.

[davidbowie]

Tim Tams are a physical product.

You can't just download a tim tam.

The cost of making a tim tam is different depending on where it is produced and that gives justification for price differences.

There is no cost difference for a digital download of a game.

[La Furia Roja]

if you buy through this greenman site do you get the code at midnight on the release date? And is it available to download at midnight aus time on release date or do we need to wait until midnight uk time?

[dsch]

Miles, I don't think what's at stake here is really the economics of the situation (which you seem to have described succinctly and well), but rather the sense of injustice your Australian fans feel, and whether one wants to come across as being on the side of the fans or not. Look, I mean, we obviously all greatly appreciate your work, or we wouldn't be here, and also how you find the time to be here to connect with the fans. It's just that we sometimes wish it's a bit easier to support SI as wholeheartedly as we would like.

[Alex W]

Can a game be gifted from Europe to someone in Aus without any in-game issues? If so then simply arrange a deal where you have someone gift you the game from Europe and send them along the cheaper price through PayPal etc.

Clearly, they're going to charge more because they can because people will pay it. Yes, it would be good of them to take a different stance but they're a company first and foremost, they're in this for the cash, which every company is. It's simply the way the world works as i'm sure you know. So use any ways around it that you can, having someone gift you the Europe version for example would be a way around it. Ship in a physical copy from Europe that'd be playable on any Aus software you have.

It can be done i'm sure.

[Luckz]

Can a game be gifted from Europe to someone in Aus without any in-game issues? If so then simply arrange a deal where you have someone gift you the game from Europe and send them along the cheaper price through PayPal etc.

As established here earlier, there are enough websites selling the game for $30/$40 for that not to be necessary.

[Bruce Drundrige]

Yeah, but have you ever Tim Tam Slammed?

[Bruce Drundrige]

"You think SI as a company can do more. I am of the opinion that if price disparity is bad in Australia, as it seems that you are claiming based on the pricing of full price PC software in the country, then that's something for you to take up with the local businesses there & your government to find out why. Same way as I would, if it really mattered to me, go to Arnott's UK distributor to ask why Tim Tam's are so expensive (which is actually very simple - they're imported from Australia, which costs extra money)"

Yeah, but have you ever Tim Tam Slammed?

[Alex W]

As established here earlier, there are enough websites selling the game for $30/$40 for that not to be necessary.

Indeed, but it's also another option for the OP to consider if needed, particularly if he has good friends in Europe as it'd be a very simple procedure.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah id be willing to buy the game as a gift through Steam or another media come the time and send it to one of you guys affected if its needed.

[Scab]

Steam will almost never undercut retail. The distributor has final word on Steam pricing and they usually don't want to hurt/annoy their retail partners as that's where most of their business is coming from. As much as it makes sense to treat digital as its own globalized thing, that's not always business reality. A lot (most, really) business models are deeply entrenched in the regional way of doing things, centered around positioning the product differently in one place than another, according to what works best in each market. Reverse importation from cheaper territories into more expensive ones has been a problem for these businesses for a looong time, and they typically do whatever they can to prevent it. I personally think this is exactly why the Russian and Turkish editions of FM have been prevented from working with an English language file, but there are many angles to that particular limitation.

We're not out of this way of thinking and doing business for games. Mostly because no business really wants global pricing — they want the flexibility to charge people according to how much they can afford, not a simple production cost+predetermined profit margin formula.

[nick1408]

Got my first reply - from Steam. "Steam does not offer price matching." That wasn't my complaint Steam! I have replied back stating as much.

[milnerpoint]

Steam wont give you any response worth reading on this to be honest, im very surprised they replied full stop.

[Ackter]

if you buy through this greenman site do you get the code at midnight on the release date? And is it available to download at midnight aus time on release date or do we need to wait until midnight uk time?

The codes are sent out 3am UK time on the day of release, though if pre-load is active (decided by Sega/Steam) the code could be sent out up to 3 days before release.

[La Furia Roja]

The codes are sent out 3am UK time on the day of release, though if pre-load is active (decided by Sega/Steam) the code could be sent out up to 3 days before release.

Thanks will buy the disc version, that's past lunch time here, can get it 5 hours earlier in shops. Thanks for the info

[boppa]

to be frank, the response from miles and si is disgusting

to say 'its not our problem' when an entire nation is forced to pay 2 times the price of everyone else is absolutely pathetic

especially in light of the moaning from the same company about piracy.. then they have the nerve to tell us 'its different'.

what a load of rubbish

its different because SI lose on one side and win on the other. this kind of blatant price gouging is akin to piracy faced by customers and the response from the company we all associate with the game is 'too bad'

the old pass the buck trick, blaming everyone else but themselves, to relieve themselves of responsibility absolutely doesnt cut it with me. all in all it this has been a shameful display from the company who i have entirely respected until now

[Luckz]

Got my first reply - from Steam. "Steam does not offer price matching." That wasn't my complaint Steam! I have replied back stating as much.

That's typical the level of reply you get there, yes

2-3 tries later somebody might actually read it, though. So just keep on repeating that.

[tom_numbers]

FFS boppa

They're not forcing you to pay that amount. There are a multitude of retailers who will sell it to the Australian public for a cheaper price.

With regards to the pricing issue - as Miles has said, it's not really SI's issue as SEGA arrange the prices of games. He got on board with the piracy issue because he felt it was costing them a significant number of sales, impacting his ability to run the studio. My opinion would be that he feels one retailer in Australia charging more for games is not going to cost SI a significant number of sales as people can and will go to a different retailer.

I would also guess that even if SI were unhappy with the price marked on Steam, it would be improper of them to publicly criticise either their publisher/distributor or their major online retailer on a public forum. Miles has said he has emailed SEGA to enquire about the price, which is about as much as he is able to do. You don't set up a contract with a company to sell your games on your behalf and then tell them they are doing it wrong.

For what it's worth, I agree that Steam are overcharging for it, but as they themselves said - they don't price match their competitors. If the people setting the prices through their store wish to charge more at the risk of losing business to other retailers, then they are entirely entitled to do so in a free market.