FM2013 Not more steam please

[Seismica]

Car analogies are useful because most of us can relate to them, as most of us have one, but most consumer products are just as relevant.

Without getting too deep into economics, one of the big principles of a free market is; once a product is sold it is the buyers property. Once you start eroding that, buy having post-sale restrictions you will always end up on shaky legal ground, unless you're somewhere like China.

And, no one knows what data Steam collects except Steam. I know Some say they don't collect any. I respectfully disagree, at the very least they will collect email addresses and Steam downloads, which can be used for targeted marketing and sale of user data. I very much suspect that most online retailers go further but non of those have software permanently installed on your PC.

Car analogies are not relevant. A game is a piece of software, and you are buying a license to use that software, you are not buying the software itself. In the same way that when buying a physical copy, you can only play it if you enter the CD key (Even pre-Steam); the actual physical product means nothing. Of course, most of these software license agreements have stupid time lengths like 99 years, or just endless licenses.

You shouldn't be paranoid about Steam. As far as DRM goes it is very open about what it does. It links games to your account, and only one person can use that account at a time (So you can't go to your mate's house and install it on his computer). That is about it. Some DRM (See: Ubisoft) actually installs a rootkit in your computer that you cannot remove. Then they require a constant internet connection to play (No offline mode). As you play it sends real-time information about what hardware you are using, what software/programs you are running etc. There is also one notorious DRM that binds your CD key to your hardware, so if you decide to upgrade your graphics card, on install a new hard drive, your game no longer works.

Steam has many advantages for SI relating to cost, distribution and advertisement, aswell as a reduction in piracy. Players can use Steam as a chat tool. If you are a big PC gamer it also allows you to use Steam as a place to launch your games from; Otherwise your desktop becomes too cluttered. Obviously for the casual gamer there are few advantages to being forced to use Steam, but you have to look at the bigger picture. It could be far, far worse. Imagine having to have a constant internet connection, with a server that keeps dropping out on you and closing your game?

[Goaltie]

Steam has been done to death in previous threads but despite the various positives & negatives atm SI deem Steam the best option of the ones given to them by Sega.

At the end of the day Steam works well for 99% of users 99% of the time, the problems occur when you fall into the small minority that have issues.

This could be a minor issue due to an update or offline mode not working which is annoying and temporarily means you cannot play any of your games registered with Steam (Not just FM).

Or it could be a more serious issue, eg a hacked account, Steam blocking access to your account for various reasons or more extreme reasons such as Steam going bankrupt. Whilst many users don't consider these possibilities anyone that has worked with risk assessment will tell you a basic principle is "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" If your entire games collection is on Steam then you run the risk of losing that entire collection for reasons that are possibly beyond your control.

For Steam to become a safe place to store a collection it needs to improve its customer service to the standard we have come to expect from SI, have terms & conditions that adhere to EU & UK law and have written guidelines/procedures for dealing with account recovery and in the more extreme cases eg of Steam/Valve going bankrupt.

In terms of the technical side of Steam, I think it's actually more intuitive and free of bugs than many of the titles being released by developers. As you say it works well for 99%, for 99% of the time. Strictly in terms of a piece of software I think it's really good. I think the bigger issues are elsewhere.

[Goaltie]

Car analogies are not relevant. A game is a piece of software, and you are buying a license to use that software, you are not buying the software itself. In the same way that when buying a physical copy, you can only play it if you enter the CD key (Even pre-Steam); the actual physical product means nothing. Of course, most of these software license agreements have stupid time lengths like 99 years, or just endless licenses.

As I said before, I respectfully disagree. Licence agreements are different in different countries and legislation is changing all the time. Buying a licence to a product does not automatically entitle you to fewer rights than buying any other product (well maybe in Britain:brock:), therefore analogies to other consumer products apply.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Car analogies are not relevant. A game is a piece of software, and you are buying a license to use that software, you are not buying the software itself. In the same way that when buying a physical copy, you can only play it if you enter the CD key (Even pre-Steam); the actual physical product means nothing. Of course, most of these software license agreements have stupid time lengths like 99 years, or just endless licenses.

You shouldn't be paranoid about Steam. As far as DRM goes it is very open about what it does. It links games to your account, and only one person can use that account at a time (So you can't go to your mate's house and install it on his computer). That is about it. Some DRM (See: Ubisoft) actually installs a rootkit in your computer that you cannot remove. Then they require a constant internet connection to play (No offline mode). As you play it sends real-time information about what hardware you are using, what software/programs you are running etc. There is also one notorious DRM that binds your CD key to your hardware, so if you decide to upgrade your graphics card, on install a new hard drive, your game no longer works.

Steam has many advantages for SI relating to cost, distribution and advertisement, aswell as a reduction in piracy. Players can use Steam as a chat tool. If you are a big PC gamer it also allows you to use Steam as a place to launch your games from; Otherwise your desktop becomes too cluttered. Obviously for the casual gamer there are few advantages to being forced to use Steam, but you have to look at the bigger picture. It could be far, far worse. Imagine having to have a constant internet connection, with a server that keeps dropping out on you and closing your game?

Or, it could be far, far better. Imagine putting your disk in your drive and playing your game whenever you want to and closing it yourself when you are finished.

Pointing out the "advantages" of something to someone who has no interest in it, or has been negatively affected by it, is a useless PR exercise and as for looking at the "bigger picture" - imagine, "...I don't like being here because I keep getting punched in the face, but I'd better stay because over there they're using hammers!..."

[Govnar1]

Or, it could be far, far better. Imagine putting your disk in your drive and playing your game whenever you want to and closing it yourself when you are finished.

Pointing out the "advantages" of something to someone who has no interest in it, or has been negatively affected by it, is a useless PR exercise and as for looking at the "bigger picture" - imagine, "...I don't like being here because I keep getting punched in the face, but I'd better stay because over there they're using hammers!..."

touché

[SCIAG]

I use a netbook, I need steam

I think I'm right in saying that FM will still be taking up the same amount of resources even if you install via Steam. Most (all?) of the files are saved locally.

Car analogies are not relevant. A game is a piece of software, and you are buying a license to use that software, you are not buying the software itself. In the same way that when buying a physical copy, you can only play it if you enter the CD key (Even pre-Steam); the actual physical product means nothing. Of course, most of these software license agreements have stupid time lengths like 99 years, or just endless licenses.?

If I may apply a car analogy to this criticism of car analogies, if I go to a dealership and buy a VW Golf, I am not buying the Golf, I am buying a lifetime of usage of one Golf. Volkswagen still owns the Golf. Likewise, when I buy FM, I am not buying FM off SI so that I own the game and they don't, I am buying one copy of the code, database and so forth to play with.

The alternative is Mercedes saying to Volkswagen "we'll buy the Golf off you", the rights to the Golf being transferred to Mercedes, and the Mercedes Golf being sold around the world, or EA going to Sega and saying "we'd like the buy the name, code and database for FM".

[milnerpoint]

I think he means he doesnt have a cd drive on his netbook.....

[Seismica]

As I said before, I respectfully disagree. Licence agreements are different in different countries and legislation is changing all the time. Buying a licence to a product does not automatically entitle you to fewer rights than buying any other product (well maybe in Britain:brock:), therefore analogies to other consumer products apply.

Holding a license =/= Owning a product.

It doesn't matter if you disagree with me, they are different (At least in name). Of course, this does not mean you are automatically entitled to fewer rights. I'm just saying that direct comparisons aren't necessarily accurate. A more accurate car analogy would be how Ferrari have famously released a number of cars (See F50 GT, Fxx) that have post-sale restrictions on them. The F50 GT could never be raced, and the Fxx has to remain in Ferrari's custody.

The part I don't like is that by buying the license for the software you have to agree to the terms and conditions (Which can include third party software designed to prevent piracy). If you don't agree to the terms you can't get the license; there is no middle ground unfortunately.

EDIT: They get around free market/competition rules because you can still buy this license at just about any game store, and you can buy it online through more than one retailer (You can buy Steam keys on 3rd party sites).

But like I mentioned before, it could be way worse than Steam. It's a necessity for most game developers/publishers these days to have some form of DRM. Steam is one of the least intrusive and is certainly the most transparent because you know exactly what it's doing.

[Goaltie]

It doesn't matter if you disagree with me

Phew, that's a relief.

Steam is one of the least intrusive and is certainly the most transparent because you know exactly what it's doing.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but that's a very naive view. Every single thing you do online is logged to a greater or lesser degree, hell even your health records are logged and sold to the highest bidder. Organisations that log your data fulfil their legal requirement on transparency (mostly) and absolutely no more than that. Unfortunately EU, and by default British, regulations on data protection are woefully inadequate to the point of being meaningless when large companies are involved. To put it simply, if Steam (Valve) doesn't log and then use/sell as much information as possible about you, without informing you, then it will be the only large retailer in Europe that doesn't. I don't like anyone collecting my data but mostly it's used by services I want, like the NHS, so I accept it because it benefits me. Steam doesn't benefit me, it benefits SI which is why SI want it and I don't.

One thing is for sure though, you've no idea what any company is doing with your data, trust me.

[Seismica]

I hope you don't mind me saying, but that's a very naive view. Every single thing you do online is logged to a greater or lesser degree, hell even your health records are logged and sold to the highest bidder. Organisations that log your data fulfil their legal requirement on transparency (mostly) and absolutely no more than that. Unfortunately EU, and by default British, regulations on data protection are woefully inadequate to the point of being meaningless when large companies are involved. To put it simply, if Steam (Valve) doesn't log and then use/sell as much information as possible about you, without informing you, then it will be the only large retailer in Europe that doesn't. I don't like anyone collecting my data but mostly it's used by services I want, like the NHS, so I accept it because it benefits me. Steam doesn't benefit me, it benefits SI which is why SI want it and I don't.

One thing is for sure though, you've no idea what any company is doing with your data, trust me.

As far as DRM goes, Steam isn't that intrusive. Obviously it will track some data, mainly for advertising (But not to the extent that you're insinuating; key loggers and such). I'm way more worried about my web browser and my operating system to be honest.

[SCIAG]

Steam doesn't benefit me, it benefits SI which is why SI want it and I don't.

Although the benefit to SI means a better game, which benefits you...

[cerud]

If it wasn't for Steam, I would have never even heard of FM. When Worldwide Soccer Manager 09 became available on Steam that year, I bought on a whim. I've bought every title since then, especially given that Steam is the only way to purchase FM in Canada...unless I order from a European site, pay for the game, the shipping, duty, etc....

In 4 years of Steam, not one issue. Am I doing something wrong?

[cufcskim]

Steam causes no issues. People won't avoid buying fm because of steam

I don't want steam, I didn't purchase FM12 for that reason. (Purchased ALL previous versions)

Steam has caused the failure of more than one of my machines and several friends.

I don't trust steam's reliability and to some extent nor do I trust their privacy provisions.

I don't want steam on my system, I have no need to have steam on my system, I would never use steam to purchase anything.

But SI/Sega are attempting to force me to install and continuously use (I assume activating then removing all trace of steam would result in fm being unusable), a piece of 3rd party software I neither want, need or trust.

I have no problem with having to validate and help combat piracy but SI/Sega need to find a way that doesn't involve dodgy 3rd party software which needs to continuously run.

I will continue to vote with my wallet for as long as steam is the only option provided.

[scott MUFC]

steam isn't dodgy and i dont see how steam is responsable for system failures.

only problems i have with steam is with TF2.. which is a VALVE game (stupid that)

and you can just load up the game and shut down steam in taskmanager

steam guard is very secure also. far too much hate directed at steam where there is no problem. Privacy? I trust steam more then google

[soldierblue123]

I don't want steam, I purchase FM12 as all other versions. But I simply don;t want to have another companies product just to play FM.

I don't want steam on my system, I have no need to have steam on my system other then to play FM12.

SI have forced me to install and continuously use a piece of 3rd party software I neither want or need.

To help combat piracy SI need a better solution. By the by how many more copies of FM have been sold to people who used to only use a pirate copy? I suspect people who buy have bought it and those who used to only have a pirated copy have not bought it - because they are not real fans of FM - so the only ones suffering are the legitimate users. Thus I am guessing that SI have not increased its profit at all except the cheaper distribution by forcing everyone to use Steam. So legitimate and long time customers are inconvenienced by SI actions. I wish they'd just put the price up of FM becasue that way they get more profit per unit and the user gets to be rid of Steam once and for all.

I will continue to purchase FM. I am addcited But I think I should have the right not to use

[cerud]

I don't want steam, I purchase FM12 as all other versions. But I simply don;t want to have another companies product just to play FM.

I don't want steam on my system, I have no need to have steam on my system other then to play FM12.

SI have forced me to install and continuously use a piece of 3rd party software I neither want or need.

To help combat piracy SI need a better solution. By the by how many more copies of FM have been sold to people who used to only use a pirate copy? I suspect people who buy have bought it and those who used to only have a pirated copy have not bought it - because they are not real fans of FM - so the only ones suffering are the legitimate users. Thus I am guessing that SI have not increased its profit at all except the cheaper distribution by forcing everyone to use Steam. So legitimate and long time customers are inconvenienced by SI actions. I wish they'd just put the price up of FM becasue that way they get more profit per unit and the user gets to be rid of Steam once and for all.

I will continue to purchase FM. I am addcited But I think I should have the right not to use

You do have the right; don't buy it You can also think of it this way...it's SI's product and they have the right to distribute in any way they want. They are forcing you to use Steam, just like they're "forcing" you to pay with money.

[Snipergod]

Goaltie I've never seen someone spout as much nonsense as you so please keep it up as it's funny as hell listening to you talk about ownership rights when you clearly have no clue lol.

[x42bn6]

You do have the right; don't buy it You can also think of it this way...it's SI's product and they have the right to distribute in any way they want. They are forcing you to use Steam, just like they're "forcing" you to pay with money.

Paying for a product is an expectation that has been handed down since ancient times, though. Nobody complains about payment because it's deemed necessary and we're used to it.

DRM, on the other hand...

[Seismica]

To help combat piracy SI need a better solution.

There aren't any better solutions.

If you don't use Steam's other features, all it does it check that your CD key is valid when you install the game. Like it or not, this does go some way to prevent casual users from pirating/sharing the game. There isn't much you can do to prevent the really tech savvy people from pirating, as long as the game is there they will find their ways and means. Anything further to combat piracy (See any game by Ubisoft) and users get inconvenienced too much. If they go back to how it was before it just makes it easier to pirate.

And that's excluding all the other advantages Steam holds for SI. By the way, using Steam allows SI to have digital download copies of the game without increasing the cost for the end user. Servers are expensive to buy and maintain (or to rent) and Steam does it for them with their existing infrastructure in exchange for a cut of sales.

[milnerpoint]

And in 30 years we might look at DRM as an expectation handed down through 3 decades and no one will complain as we're used too it. Humans dont really like change, we look for the cynical reasons as to why it doesnt suit us personally. Thats nature really. People have already gotten over Steam for the best part, give this another few years and everyone will laugh at the fuss caused by this situation.

[x42bn6]

And in 30 years we might look at DRM as an expectation handed down through 3 decades and no one will complain as we're used too it. Humans dont really like change, we look for the cynical reasons as to why it doesnt suit us personally. Thats nature really. People have already gotten over Steam for the best part, give this another few years and everyone will laugh at the fuss caused by this situation.

Does it mean it is acceptable today, though, for the right reasons? Lots of things became fashionable. We call some of these "bad habits", like smoking. Just because it becomes acceptable to society in the future doesn't make it right. Software licensing in general, for example - it could be argued that the very concept of software licensing should have been wrong from the start and that software should have been sold like cars or fruit - without terms of use. One argument is that copyright law (likely modified over time to deal with technological advances) would have been enough without software licensing.

As for "we might": If anything, "middle-men" like Steam and app stores might even vanish, because the Internet in general doesn't need middle-men (although middle-men may add value; these might likely survive). One day, SI (and publishers themselves) might set up their own "Steam-like" service to deliver FM to users, as processing power and bandwidth become less of a problem - eliminating the concern some users have with trusting another third-party with personally-identifying information.

In addition, DRM has been around since the 90s, if earlier. So it's been around 20 years and we're still not used to it. We may never be!

Of course, this area is always going to be a battleground. The most recent case I can think of is Oracle vs. Usedsoft.

[tom_numbers]

...and that software should have been sold like cars of fruit - without terms of use. One argument...

You definitely win the weirdest automobile analogy award.

[TioPatinhax]

About Steam, i´m buying a laptop soon, if I login from my laptop to my Steam account will I be able to download my copy of FM to the laptop and then play it?

Thanks

[x42bn6]

You definitely win the weirdest automobile analogy award.

Fixed. It's an "or"...

[Goaltie]

Goaltie I've never seen someone spout as much nonsense as you so please keep it up as it's funny as hell listening to you talk about ownership rights when you clearly have no clue lol.

You might be right, maybe I don't know as much as you about the subject. If that's the case I'll hold my hands up right now, but given that you seem like a trolling cretin I'm going to take a guess that I know more than you about any subject.

Please don't troll a good thread.

Thanks.

[milnerpoint]

To be fair the only one trolling, calling names and being abusive is yourself. By all means have a debate, but do it in a grown up manor at least.

[nine_iron]

About Steam, i´m buying a laptop soon, if I login from my laptop to my Steam account will I be able to download my copy of FM to the laptop and then play it?

Thanks

One steam account, many PCs.

I have FM on at least two laptops and one gaming rig. All I do is hoike my save from one to another, log into my steam account and play! Easy peasy!

[milnerpoint]

Does it mean it is acceptable today, though, for the right reasons? Lots of things became fashionable. We call some of these "bad habits", like smoking. Just because it becomes acceptable to society in the future doesn't make it right. Software licensing in general, for example - it could be argued that the very concept of software licensing should have been wrong from the start and that software should have been sold like cars or fruit - without terms of use. One argument is that copyright law (likely modified over time to deal with technological advances) would have been enough without software licensing.

As for "we might": If anything, "middle-men" like Steam and app stores might even vanish, because the Internet in general doesn't need middle-men (although middle-men may add value; these might likely survive). One day, SI (and publishers themselves) might set up their own "Steam-like" service to deliver FM to users, as processing power and bandwidth become less of a problem - eliminating the concern some users have with trusting another third-party with personally-identifying information.

In addition, DRM has been around since the 90s, if earlier. So it's been around 20 years and we're still not used to it. We may never be!

Of course, this area is always going to be a battleground. The most recent case I can think of is Oracle vs. Usedsoft.

You could say the same for a lot of what we accept as part of society now a days, hindsight is brilliant, almost every change we have gone through at any level has been challenged by someone at one point or another, we are only able to look back now and decide if they were for the best or not, finances included.

Your right about the second part, SI may release their own "Steam", or more likely their publisher be it SEGA or anyone else, in the future but it will still be DRM, but right now we are at the stage where DRM is almost always third party related, in this instance its provided by one of the top games companys in the world.

I do laugh at the worry of the data steam collects whilst the same user is almost probably posting on this site using a windows or apple OS and a web browser that collects more data than they will ever know. Its a thin excuse for not wanting Steam really all things considered. Yes i know you use the worlds most compicated set up so you are safe from haxors, but the majority are not in the same boat.

[Goaltie]

To be fair the only one trolling, calling names and being abusive is yourself. By all means have a debate, but do it in a grown up manor at least.

I called you a name that's correct. that was because you called me a liar, which I didn't appreciate. If you disagree with me fine, if you think I'm wrong, it's certainly possible, but if you accuse me of lying I will use the language of my choosing in my defence. I am conversing in, I hope, perfectly acceptable language with anyone who expresses a different opinion to myself. What you and Snipergod are trying to do is get other members banned by starting an argument, which is spoiling a good thread, that is what I object to.

Anyway, I think it's best I add you to the ignore list so our off topic posts don't take over the whole thread. Don't be offended if I don't reply in future.

Thanks.

[Ackter]

That's enough now.

When the announcements are made, then we'll find out what SI have gone for.