Tutoring options

[StormenDK]

After reading a bit in one of the tutoring threads here, where some who seemed to think that the options worked as in older versions (where you selected an option depending on the squad status of the tutor), I wanted to be sure. I was certain that the two options were in regards to whether the youngster would (potentially) learn PPMs or not.

So what I did was run a few tests on this.

I created two identical sets of tutor/youngster pairs, so the results would be comparable. I then paired one tutor to a youngster using the first option, and the other using the second option. I then went on holiday for 181 days, and checked the youngster's PPMs.

The result seems to support my suspicions, that the first option will allow the tutor to transfer PPMs, and the second will only affect mental attributes.

Here are the facts of my test cases:

Tutors:

Position: MC

Mental stats: all 15s

CA: 75

PA: 130

Reputation: 100 (national)

Squad status: Key Player

PPMs: Gets into opposition area, Argues with officials, Dictates tempo

Youngsters:

Position: MC

Mental stats: all 8s

CA: 50

PA: 120

Reputation: 0 (local)

Squad status: Hot prospect

Results:

Tutor A/Youngster A - Option 1 'I feel you can help improve his game'

Test 1: Dictates tempo

Test 2: Dictates tempo

Test 3: No PPM transferred

Test 4: No PPM transferred

Test 5: No PPM transferred

Test 6: No PPM transferred

Tutor B/Youngster B - Option 2 'Take him under your wing anf mentor him off the pitch'

Test 1: No PPM transferred

Test 2: No PPM transferred

Test 3: No PPM transferred

Test 4: No PPM transferred

Test 5: No PPM transferred

Test 6: No PPM transferred

Tutor B/Youngster B - Option 1 'I feel you can help improve his game'

Test 1: Dictates tempo, Argues with officials

Tutor A/Youngster A - Option 2 'Take him under your wing anf mentor him off the pitch'

Test 1: No PPM transferred

While it is not an exhaustive test, I think it indicates that the two options decides whether you want your youngster to get the PPMs of the tutor or not.

So in conclusion:

For non-NewGen youngsters:

Option 1 'I feel you can help improve his game' - Transfers PPMs, Shifts mental traits, makes tutor favoured personnel for youngster.

Option 2 'Take him under your wing anf mentor him off the pitch' - Shifts mental traits, never makes tutor favoured personnel.

For NewGen youngsters:

To be tested ....

[StormenDK]

I tested a bit more on this, and now I am practically certain that all the options do, is decide whether you want the youngster to learn PPMs or not.

I made 9 identical tutors and 9 identical youngsters (same stats as above).

I made the five first tutors (A-E) use the first option, and the last four (F-I) use the second option. Results reflected my tests made in the original post. So I then ran that test again, but this time changed the squad status of all tutors to Backup. Results were the same.

Shown below ae the number of PPMs transferred.

   Key   Backup
A   2	   0 
B   0	   1
C   0	   2
D   2	   1
E   2	   2

F   0	   0 (broken off)
G   0	   0 (broken off)
H   0	   0
I   0	   0

I did a few more test runs of the 9 pairings, to look into how much stats shifted, as I originally saw some changes, that indicated that the shifts could be massive. Also I wanted to see if there was a difference in stat shifts between the two options. Below are the results of three cycles of tutoring:

Benefit = '<youngster> benefited from <tutor>'s experience'.

Little = '<youngster> gained a little from <tutor>'

Diff = '<youngster> feels disenchanted with trying to shadow <tutor>' (Personality clash)

A-E used option 1

F-I used option 2

Apparently there is no major difference in stats shifts between the two options.

On the other hand, choosing option 1 will ensure that the tutor becomes the youngster's favoured personnel on completing the tutoring session, while option 2 will never make the tutor favoured personnel.

Tutoring seems very, very powerful in this version ... with 55+ points in stat shifts not being uncommon in my tests. That is HUGE. The record is a 62 point stat shift, where a youngster goes from all 8s to all 15s, except one stat that is 14.

[llama3]

nice addition to your earlier work StormenDK - impressive again

[Grogtank]

Interesting. Did you note the reactions of the tutor when selecting the different options? Did thier reactions to the different options change any after you changed thier squad status? At one point in time SI confirmed the tutors would have a different reaction to the different options. Nice work Stormen!

Personally I think SI should dump the "higher squad status" requirement for tutoring. It makes no sense to begin with.

[StormenDK]

Interesting. Did you note the reactions of the tutor when selecting the different options? Did thier reactions to the different options change any after you changed thier squad status? At one point in time SI confirmed the tutors would have a different reaction to the different options. Nice work Stormen!

Personally I think SI should dump the "higher squad status" requirement for tutoring. It makes no sense to begin with.

I did 32 pairings, and not a single one did the tutor or youngster refuse. And 30 were successful until the end of the 180 days, while only two failed due to personality clashes.

This I attribute to personalities of the tutors and youngsters. Tutors were 'Light-hearted' and the youngsters were 'Balanced'. But how exactly the personality enters into that calculation, I am not sure. Might be the personality, or some (or combination) of stats. I have no way of knowing this.

The SI statement was made in FM09 or FM10. Since then, they have made no comments on them again, even though they have obviously changed.

This is why I want much better documentation of such features, that we currently have. I find it annoying that I have to spend hours reverse-engineering this, to figure out how two options work, when that should have been in the manual to begin with.

[Cleon]

The SI statement was made in FM09 or FM10. Since then, they have made no comments on them again, even though they have obviously changed.

Lucas Wetherby one of the SI staff confirmed earlier this year that it does work as you suggested. I think the way it all worked was changed for FM12 as before this both options only did the same, it was only the respone you got from the players what would differ and not what each option actually did.

Also I think its worth noting that option 2 doesn't only change mental attributes, there is also a chance of changing a players personality (hidden attributes) compared to option 1. Mainly with newgens though. That's why when you choose option 2 for tutoring newgens you often get a coach message telling you that 'Due to recent off the field events player a is much more professional/determined/driven' etc.

Changing a players personality though is a newgen feature and not really one for the current players. It was a new feature added for FM12 which a lot of people didn't/don't know about. Was just one of the many small 'touches' that SI add.

[StormenDK]

Lucas Wetherby one of the SI staff confirmed earlier this year that it does work as you suggested. I think the way it all worked was changed for FM12 as before this both options only did the same, it was only the respone you got from the players what would differ and not what each option actually did.

Also I think its worth noting that option 2 doesn't only change mental attributes, there is also a chance of changing a players personality (hidden attributes) compared to option 1. Mainly with newgens though. That's why when you choose option 2 for tutoring newgens you often get a coach message telling you that 'Due to recent off the field events player a is much more professional/determined/driven' etc.

Changing a players personality though is a newgen feature and not really one for the current players. It was a new feature added for FM12 which a lot of people didn't/don't know about. Was just one of the many small 'touches' that SI add.

I am not sure what you mean here

Both option 1 and 2 changes the mental/hidden attributes, and thus have a chance of changing the player's personality (which is (almost) solely based on those hidden attributes + Determination).

In case some might be confused, when I said Mental attributes, I meant the hidden ones: Ambition, Loyalty, Controversy, Pressure, Professionalism, Temperament, Sportsmanship, Adaptability.

Not sure how this works differently with Newgens, than with existing Db players?

Player personalities changed all the time in earlier versions, due to shifts in the hidden attributes, due to tutoring (or other events). So what is this new feature you are mentioning?

[Cleon]

When you mentor off the pitch, you can completley change a newgens personality. While you've been able to do this to some extent in previous versions, you could never really change the players personality like you can now. You could only alter the hidden attributes ever so slightly. But now you can change them completley but it only works on newgens, that's what the feature is. Existing DB players it doesn't work with, they have to be newgens.

[Karnage94]

This information has given me a whole new thought towards how I should be tutoring. I always picked option 1 and accepted that sometimes it would work and sometimes it would not and never really gave much thought on how to make the most of it.

[StormenDK]

When you mentor off the pitch, you can completley change a newgens personality. While you've been able to do this to some extent in previous versions, you could never really change the players personality like you can now. You could only alter the hidden attributes ever so slightly. But now you can change them completley but it only works on newgens, that's what the feature is. Existing DB players it doesn't work with, they have to be newgens.

Ah, I had no idea about that new feature. Not surprisingly though, as SI seem to like changing stuff, and then not document it

So basically with NewGens, you can get a Balanced youngster to become Professional on one tutoring on option 2? ... while option 1 will still only move his hidden stats towards those of the tutor in smaller increments?

While I never bothered to check the hidden stats after my tutoring tests, I did notice some rather huge changes in stats. I noticed one who actually went from 8 to 15 in Determination, and one or two that had become 'Light-hearted' in personality (which means a minimum shift of +7 Sportsmanship, +7 Pressure, +1 Determination and +1 Temperament). So major shifts in stats are still possible. Which was surprising, as I had thought that SI had nerfed this feature, as it was pretty powerful in former versions.

I don't recall which option was used for these massive shifts, as that was not my point of the tests. But I might have to look into that a bit more, and maybe hope they don't change everything again for FM13.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

In FM10 a youngster only considered a tutoring session as mega successful (100% like) if they gained PPMs as well as improvement in personality. Can this same level of success be attained from both the new versions?

[Grogtank]

Once again more confusion pops up. Personality change only for newgens or not? If it's only for newgens, this has to be the most illogical "feature" in the game. Explaining how my 17yo non-newgen youngster is somehow personality locked when his 16yo counterpart isn't would be interesting to say the least. Using logic such as "we have a good idea of current youngster personalities" doesn't work simply because we have no idea how these players will mature in real life. Pretty much all my purchases in my current save were made based on the assumption I could tutor them up to a personalty that fits into the squad.

While I greatly appreciate the contributions here, for me this is more proof the system needs further refinement to be less restrictive and more intuitive. Eliminate the squad status requirement. Create a tutor interface tab in the character screen that shows us everyone available that can tutor this player along with compatibility. Having a single vague word describing multiple hidden aspects of personality is simply not good enough when selecting potential match ups. edit: Document for us exactly what any tutoring options do in the future.

[furiousuk]

I didn't realise this feature either!

But then again, I'm still embroiled in FM11 so I wouldn't!

It makes perfect sense that you can't do it with real players, the same as real players have as a minimum the 'balanced' philosophy. You can still alter the personalities as you always could (if I understand correctly) but you can also be more 'severe' in your personality adjustments for newgens. Makes perfect sense and I'm sure it's a good edition to the series.

I'm not too bothered that SI don't expressly document every aspect of their product, it's the grey areas that help us to form our own opinions. There's areas of great interpretation in FM which is a good thing. Judging personality is incredibly difficult in real-life, judging personality changes is even more difficult. Why should it be any different in FM? Same for many of the other 'grey' areas.

[Cleon]

I didn't realise this feature either!

But then again, I'm still embroiled in FM11 so I wouldn't!

It makes perfect sense that you can't do it with real players, the same as real players have as a minimum the 'balanced' philosophy. You can still alter the personalities as you always could (if I understand correctly) but you can also be more 'severe' in your personality adjustments for newgens. Makes perfect sense and I'm sure it's a good edition to the series.

I'm not too bothered that SI don't expressly document every aspect of their product, it's the grey areas that help us to form our own opinions. There's areas of great interpretation in FM which is a good thing. Judging personality is incredibly difficult in real-life, judging personality changes is even more difficult. Why should it be any different in FM? Same for many of the other 'grey' areas.

Exactly like this

There is no confusion.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Exactly like this

There is no confusion.

Well, not now there isn't. Have you thought of asking SI if you can fill all the gaps in the manual?

How come you know this? And more importantly, why have you waited so long before passing it on? (SI loosened the leash a little eh! )

[Cleon]

Well, not now there isn't. Have you thought of asking SI if you can fill all the gaps in the manual?

How come you know this? And more importantly, why have you waited so long before passing it on? (SI loosened the leash a little eh! )

SI have no say over what I talk about, not sure why people think they do

Well I've not waited, I mentioned it when FM12 was released and atleast on 3 other occassions.

[Grogtank]

I didn't realise this feature either!

Just to be clear, the feature is that one option will transfer PPM's and one won't?

It makes perfect sense that you can't do it with real players, the same as real players have as a minimum the 'balanced' philosophy.

Explain. It makes no logical sense at all to me. Why can one youngster's personality change but anothers can't?

You can still alter the personalities as you always could (if I understand correctly) but you can also be more 'severe' in your personality adjustments for newgens. Makes perfect sense and I'm sure it's a good edition to the series.

Now I'm honestly confused. Which part exactly is the part that doesn't work with existing players?

I'm not too bothered that SI don't expressly document every aspect of their product, it's the grey areas that help us to form our own opinions. There's areas of great interpretation in FM which is a good thing. Judging personality is incredibly difficult in real-life, judging personality changes is even more difficult. Why should it be any different in FM? Same for many of the other 'grey' areas.

I emphatically disagree with this. The time investment to get into this game is massive. It is a huge turn off to have your time wasted because you went in to a save with a false assumption caused by a lack of documentation. Just to be clear, I did not propose scrapping all hidden aspects of a players personality. That said, finding balance between guess work and perfect knowledge is important. When it comes to tutoring I find it suspicious and gamey, even frustraiting, how unwilling some matchups tend to be. This is especially true when important attributes can only be raised through tutoring player to player, which is unrealistic.

[StormenDK]

In FM10 a youngster only considered a tutoring session as mega successful (100% like) if they gained PPMs as well as improvement in personality. Can this same level of success be attained from both the new versions?

In my tests, everyone who were trained using option 1, 'Had benefitted' from the tutoring, no matter if they gained a PPM or not. All on Option B got 'Gained little'.

[StormenDK]

I'm not too bothered that SI don't expressly document every aspect of their product, it's the grey areas that help us to form our own opinions. There's areas of great interpretation in FM which is a good thing. Judging personality is incredibly difficult in real-life, judging personality changes is even more difficult. Why should it be any different in FM? Same for many of the other 'grey' areas.

I am bothered by the fact that tutoring is a feature, and a pretty important one, and it is not even mentioned with one word in the manual (last time I checked). I am not saying they have to include matrixes to show exactly how to match different personalities for best effect, but I do expect them to tell the players how each tutoring option differs. I find it odd that I as a player has to visit these forums and search through tons of threads to find this kind of information.

Something generic could be written in the manual, like:

Tutoring: Put one of your experienced veterans in charge of molding a promising youngster. The youngster's personality will then graviate towards that of the tutor, with various success depending on many factors like personalities and pure luck. Be aware that they can have a falling out, which will make the two players dislike each other.

<Insert specifics about how to pair them, like requirements for Reputation, Age, position and Squad Status> ... none of these elements being documented takes away from the "mystery" of the feature.

Option 1: Youngster will learn from the tutor on and off the pitch, soaking up both his playing style (PPMs) and his personality traits.

Option 2: Youngster is only tutored off-pitch and thus will only absorb some of the tutor's personality

There, nothing too much is revealed about how the mechanics of the tutoring session actually works, but some very basic points, that any manager should know, have been explained, and we don't have to sit and reverse engineer this every FM version, when the feature/options are changed, but with no word of what exactly is changed.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I am bothered by the fact that tutoring is a feature, and a pretty important one, and it is not even mentioned with one word in the manual (last time I checked). I am not saying they have to include matrixes to show exactly how to match different personalities for best effect, but I do expect them to tell the players how each tutoring option differs. I find it odd that I as a player has to visit these forums and search through tons of threads to find this kind of information.

Something generic could be written in the manual, like:

There, nothing too much is revealed about how the mechanics of the tutoring session actually works, but some very basic points, that any manager should know, have been explained, and we don't have to sit and reverse engineer this every FM version, when the feature/options are changed, but with no word of what exactly is changed.

Don't put your reverse engineering hat away just yet, FM13 isn't too far away.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

SI have no say over what I talk about, not sure why people think they do

Well I've not waited, I mentioned it when FM12 was released and atleast on 3 other occassions.

What about the, "How come you know this?" part?

[Cleon]

What about the, "How come you know this?" part?

Beta tester for FM12, I read threads, speak to SI staff etc, the list is endless...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Beta tester for FM12...

Very handy.

I read threads...

Don't we all? (mostly )

speak to SI staff ...

Ah! now you have me. Some information isn't too secret to be kept from "insiders", but it is too precious to to be spread amongst the FM playing plebs!

[StormenDK]

Don't put your reverse engineering hat away just yet, FM13 isn't too far away.

That's what I am worried about ... It is a lot of hours of work trying to figure out how things work after they change it in each version. Which is also why I basically stopped testing this after the second patch in FM11, as they even changed things between patches.

[Grogtank]

I hope Cleon and furiousuk understand this isn't hostility but frustration. We all appreciate the work you all put in to these forums.

Can we get some clarity on what is it exactly that only works with newgens as stated by furiousuk? Is it that personality changes are more pronounced with newgens or does some aspect of tutoring not work at all on existing players?

Thanks

[StormenDK]

Ok, just observed a CRAZY result of a tutoring session, that at some point ended due to a personality clash.

Stats of the tutor and youngster is as in the OP, tutor has all 15s, and youngster all 8s. This is with option 2, but I have seen massive gains too with option 1. So the functionality is not nerfed in FM12, seems to have been increased instead:

[pigfacemonkeyman]

On a general tutoring note, I suppose it's possible for a tutoring session to break down because certain "wrong" attributes increase before the "right" attributes, giving the tutee a mid session personality that conflicts with the tutor's.

[Cleon]

I hope Cleon and furiousuk understand this isn't hostility but frustration. We all appreciate the work you all put in to these forums.

Can we get some clarity on what is it exactly that only works with newgens as stated by furiousuk? Is it that personality changes are more pronounced with newgens or does some aspect of tutoring not work at all on existing players?

Thanks

I answered already if you read my replies. You can't totally change a existing players personality, you can only alter them to some extent (yes you can change the description thats different). Where as newgens you can completley change them and really make a difference altering the hidden attributes by a very large amount.

You can mould newgens into the players you want them to be.

[StormenDK]

On a general tutoring note, I suppose it's possible for a tutoring session to break down because certain "wrong" attributes increase before the "right" attributes, giving the tutee a mid session personality that conflicts with the tutor's.

I believe it is just a matter of chance, whether the tutoring breaks. I have never seen a pairing that would consistently break down due to the personalities. I think is is something like Balanced/Light-Hearted = x% per day it will fail ... or it might be based on the actual stats and how far apart they are .. maybe even something like some stats being weighted differently, so beigger chance of failure between a 8 to 15 Controversy pair than an 8 to 15 Sportsmanship or Pressure pair.

[StormenDK]

Tested my 9 pairings again, this time also looking at the stat changes ... and I must admit, that the gains are rather surprising. If the tutoring doesn't fail, then the stat changes are usually pretty significant.

Benefit = '<youngster> benefited from <tutor>'s experience'.

Little = '<youngster> gained a little from <tutor>'

Diff = '<youngster> feels disenchanted with trying to shadow <tutor>' (Personality clash)

A-E used option 1

F-I used option 2

Looking at these three test runs, I don't see a big difference between the effects of the two options. So I guess besides not wanting a youngster to gain any of the tutor's PPMs, there is no real reason to pick option 2 .... unless it has such a huge impact for NewGens, as Cleon suggests. I will have to look into that.

Also, as usual, the news item (and the conversation result) says absolutely nothing about how the actual tutoring ended. Except that with option 1, the youngster always gains the tutor as a favoured personel, and with option 2 he does not. This is probably what the news item refers to with whether he benefited or not. Seems like a bug that this is how it always works. But it might differ for Newgens too, and simply not work correctly for DB players.

Also when you look at the Conversation History, all the youngsters show Abysmal morale after the tutoring, but when you check their profiles, it does not. I think the Conversation shows their morale wrong.

[SammyW1000]

Just to be clear, the feature is that one option will transfer PPM's and one won't?

Explain. It makes no logical sense at all to me. Why can one youngster's personality change but anothers can't?

Now I'm honestly confused. Which part exactly is the part that doesn't work with existing players?

I emphatically disagree with this. The time investment to get into this game is massive. It is a huge turn off to have your time wasted because you went in to a save with a false assumption caused by a lack of documentation. Just to be clear, I did not propose scrapping all hidden aspects of a players personality. That said, finding balance between guess work and perfect knowledge is important. When it comes to tutoring I find it suspicious and gamey, even frustraiting, how unwilling some matchups tend to be. This is especially true when important attributes can only be raised through tutoring player to player, which is unrealistic.

I think the difference between real players and regens is likely to be a legal or licensing one. SI don't want to be seen to be labelling a real life player as being unprofessional or even 'spineless'. I'd imagine that if you looked in the editor at some of the more notorious 'bad-boys' of real life football you would see some very poor hidden stats but the player would still be described by the game as balanced.

I doubt that there is any mechanical difference between the way tutoring works for real and regen players. But practically it may seem that way as

1) Because real players can't have negative personality descriptions you will only ever see an average personality descriptions change to a positive one.

2) If a real life player is rated by the researchers as having high potential (and thus being worthy of tutoring)it is more likely than not that they will be rated as having good or at least average personalities. In the vast majority of cases, real life players with personalities so bad that they are obvious to researchers will not have made it to U18 level. With a regen my understanding is that the games PA rating is entirely separate from their personality traits and so you are more likely to take on high potential players with poor personalities that you then plan to drastically change through tutoring.

FWIW I'm a little disappointed that tutoring continues to be so overpowered. I'd much prefer to see attributes grow more organically (perhaps a youth players attributes could naturally migrate towards the average personality of the squad or something like that?). Do increases in hidden personality stats take up CA points? If not maybe that could be a possible route to go down?

[SammyW1000]

I answered already if you read my replies. You can't totally change a existing players personality, you can only alter them to some extent (yes you can change the description thats different). Where as newgens you can completley change them and really make a difference altering the hidden attributes by a very large amount.

You can mould newgens into the players you want them to be.

I don't know how to quote from two different posts in one go but I think this is incorrect, as above.

[Grogtank]

I love knowing that option 2 will not transfer PPM's. This test is conclusive on that and it's a great feature. The text description is accurate which is always nice.

In summary:

Option 1. Influences Personality, Transfers PPM's and Tutor becomes favored personel.

Option 2. Influences Personality, No PPM's and No favored personel.

It will be interesting to see results from newgens. StormenDK you are a hero for doing this work. I'm not sure I agree with the design decision to have option 2 never give favored personel status. Perhaps SI could give it a 40% - 60% chance.

[Grogtank]

I answered already if you read my replies. You can't totally change a existing players personality, you can only alter them to some extent (yes you can change the description thats different). Where as newgens you can completley change them and really make a difference altering the hidden attributes by a very large amount.

You can mould newgens into the players you want them to be.

First, I have read your threads. When furiousuk says something doesn't work with existing players I don't expect to see a 8-15 point swing in attributes. This is clearly a large personality change. Perhaps I take words too literally for my own good. Anyway, I'm glad some of these details are coming out and we are working through it.

FWIW I'm a little disappointed that tutoring continues to be so overpowered. I'd much prefer to see attributes grow more organically (perhaps a youth players attributes could naturally migrate towards the average personality of the squad or something like that?). Do increases in hidden personality stats take up CA points? If not maybe that could be a possible route to go down?

I agree with this. It's literally the difference between complete failure or superstar. It ignores so many other obvious influences such as a club and staff that encourages specific behavior. It also ignores the influence of being around people of a certain personality both in and out of training. Perhaps we need motivational speaker and sports psychologist staff positions for shaping the minds of players in a more traditional (training category) sense. Just a thought. Actually here's a better thought, tutoring could then be used in a more intuitive and less restrictive way to transfer PPM's.

[StormenDK]

I'm not sure I agree with the design decision to have option 2 never give favored personel status. Perhaps SI could give it a 40% - 60% chance.

I think it is a bug, that the end result is always the same for DB players. But it might be connected with the bug that personality shifts are not possible for DB players either.

I think both options should have about the same chances of the tutor becoming a favoured personnel.

I think I might look into the whole NewGen issue over the weekend

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Tested my 9 pairings again, this time also looking at the stat changes ... and I must admit, that the gains are rather surprising. If the tutoring doesn't fail, then the stat changes are usually pretty significant.

Benefit = '<youngster> benefited from <tutor>'s experience'.

Little = '<youngster> gained a little from <tutor>'

Diff = '<youngster> feels disenchanted with trying to shadow <tutor>' (Personality clash)

A-E used option 1

F-I used option 2

Looking at these three test runs, I don't see a big difference between the effects of the two options. So I guess besides not wanting a youngster to gain any of the tutor's PPMs, there is no real reason to pick option 2 .... unless it has such a huge impact for NewGens, as Cleon suggests. I will have to look into that.

Also, as usual, the news item (and the conversation result) says absolutely nothing about how the actual tutoring ended. Except that with option 1, the youngster always gains the tutor as a favoured personel, and with option 2 he does not. This is probably what the news item refers to with whether he benefited or not. Seems like a bug that this is how it always works. But it might differ for Newgens too, and simply not work correctly for DB players.

Also when you look at the Conversation History, all the youngsters show Abysmal morale after the tutoring, but when you check their profiles, it does not. I think the Conversation shows their morale wrong.

This almost answers my question in post #11. Did you check the level of "Likes" for each outcome?

There are several outcomes in FM10, the following spoilers include hidden stats:

1)Delighted (benefitted) =

+100 "Likes Person" = Favoured personel

2)Pleased (appreciates) =

+50 "Likes Person" = Favoured Personel

3)Little Disappointed (gained a little) =

0 "Likes Person" = Nothing Visible

4)? (admitted not gained) =

-3 & -4 "Likes Person" = Nothing Visible

5)Fell Out =

at least -50, down to -100 "Likes Person" = Nothing Visible (as far as I can remember)

It's worth remembering that these outcomes also affect the youngster's relationship to you the manager, if I recall correctly "how much the youngster likes you will rise or fall by the same amounts. (I'm certain about 3 & 4, can't remember the exact figures for 1,2 & 5).

[furiousuk]

It's not a bug, I'm not sure why you think it is. I'm pretty sure the game is working exactly how FM designed it to work.

I'm not really a big authority on this sort of thing, I choose the top option (is it different in FM11? I don't even know that!!) all the time and don't worry about the small details.

It works as someone has said at some point:

Top option is more in-depth tutoring

Bottom option is 'casual' tutoring

If you think of the options like that then it becomes pretty simple to know what is roughly going to happen. You don't need to know that a professional tutor will transfer 3 professionalism points to an unprofessional tutee with option 1 but will only transfer 1 for option 2. Think about it realistically.

If I'm the Chelsea boss and I decide that Hazard is talented but raw and needs to learn to buckle down then I might ask him to work really closely with, say, Lampard. If I've decided that actually he does work really hard and I like his attitude but I'd like him to know that there is always a hand on his shoulder if he needs it then I'll get Frank to 'keep an eye on him', all with his consent of course. If I choose the first route then I expect the 2 to work closely together, I expect to see them work on technique together after training, I'd like to see them eat lunch together and maybe critique performance etc. If I chose the 2nd route then I'd expect them to talk to each other and if Hazard is having a hard time with something I'd expect Lampard to be there to help him through - much as the senior players in the squad should do anyway.

None of this is rocket science or surprising.

I'd expect them to become favoured personnel with the first option. I'd expect the tutee to maybe gain some 'aspects' of the tutors play due to watching him closely and training together more (i.e. PPM transfer). I'd hope that the personality of the tutee would improve to match that of the old pro (or move towards, I still want strong-willed individuals to form my team, not robots). This all happens in FM.

If it's a casual pairing I wouldn't necessarily expect favoured personnel (although it might happen). I wouldn't necessarily expect a PPM transfer because I'm not that bothered (I've chosen a casual pairing so I clearly think the youngster is doing fine). I would expect a little personality shift but nothing major - this is more a support mechanism. This nearly all happens in FM.

As for the newgen/real boy thing. It's a separate issue. Isn't it obvious why SI would implement it this way? It's been mentioned in the thread already, it's intention. No bug here.

As for the documentation thing - everyone plays differently but if you approach it from a 'real-life football' perspective rather than a computer-game perspective then much of the dynamics of the game become rather obvious, and most work exactly how you might expect.

edit: On a side note, most SI employees are active on twitter and often join in discussions with us fans.

[StormenDK]

As for the documentation thing - everyone plays differently but if you approach it from a 'real-life football' perspective rather than a computer-game perspective then much of the dynamics of the game become rather obvious, and most work exactly how you might expect.[/i]

Just wanted to touch on this, even though this thread shouldn't really be about whether the feature is documented enough or not ... I agree that SI are trying to make a simulator that takes us as close to being a real-life manager, but it still being a game that is fun. Which is why they in most areas have to "cut corners" in realism, or the game would be unplayable.

You could argue that all stats should be hidden, and maybe replaced with a few categories (like personalities are), as a real life manager would not know whether his winger has Pace 14 or Pace 17. And then force everyone to watch the games to figure out their stats. But then no one would want to play the game.

I feel tutoring needs some kind of documentation. You can't just have features in your game that is not mentioned in your manual at all. You can't make a game, and then expect people who play it, to spend hours on your forums to find out what the basics of a feature is. If you want to know how often a Professional/Balanced pairing fails or what kind of improvements you can expect, then yes, you would have to come here and hope that someone tested this extensively, and have some results to show.

But a casual player or newbie should not have to come here to find out why Youngster X cannot be tutored by Player Y. It should be pretty clear to the player, if he looks in the manual, that Youngster X is just too old, or have the wrong position or it might be related to his squad status. These are basics (and not really realistic, as where does it say in real life, that a 24 year old could not learn from a 30 year old? ... or that the 30 year old has to be a better player (CA wise) to be able to teach the youngster some moves or mold his personality.), so that should be well-establishes rules, that go in the manual.

As you said, not everyone plays the game in the same way. Some might even refuse to visit these boards, as it gives too much information. I mean I read often on these boards that documenting too much will ruin the immersion of the game and the realism, but they still come and enjoy reading other people's tests on training or team talks or tutoring or personalities or whatever. So why is it ok for that info to be available here, but not in the manual? ... if you want the realism experience, then just don't look in the manual ... and to be honest, how often do you actually look in that anyways?

[furiousuk]

Yeah, I didn't know the manual even existed for years!!

I didn't realise there was nothing in the manual about tutoring. I agree there should be some reference as to 'how to do it' (i.e. which buttons to press) and probably a brief description of how they feature conceptually works, agreed we don't need the specifics, just an overview of the feature. It's difficult though to know how much to expose and how much to keep as a grey area for players to enjoy discovering for themselves.

[bdixon]

If I'm the Chelsea boss and I decide that Hazard is talented but raw and needs to learn to buckle down then I might ask him to work really closely with, say, Lampard. If I've decided that actually he does work really hard and I like his attitude but I'd like him to know that there is always a hand on his shoulder if he needs it then I'll get Frank to 'keep an eye on him', all with his consent of course. If I choose the first route then I expect the 2 to work closely together, I expect to see them work on technique together after training, I'd like to see them eat lunch together and maybe critique performance etc. If I chose the 2nd route then I'd expect them to talk to each other and if Hazard is having a hard time with something I'd expect Lampard to be there to help him through - much as the senior players in the squad should do anyway.

I am having an issued with Hazard myself it appears it he has very low professional stats (checked FMScout, it appears to be '5') so he is constantly moaning about about training. How would you go about increasing this, he doesn't appear he my options for Lampard to tutor him.

[furiousuk]

I am having an issued with Hazard myself it appears it he has very low professional stats (checked FMScout, it appears to be '5') so he is constantly moaning about about training. How would you go about increasing this, he doesn't appear he my options for Lampard to tutor him.

I was just using an example of young player and an old player, I've no idea the real personality of either player and wouldn't like to speculate.

In terms of FM there could be a few reasons that Lamps can't tutor him (although this is in-keeping with the theme of the thread i.e. tutoring can be confusing!).

What I can say is that vast differences between the personality of the tutor and the personality of the tutee will likely result in tutoring failure. So, tutoring a 5 professionalism youngster with a 20 professionalism old boy probably isn't going to work.

I suspect that, in your case, Hazard has a massively high reputation already which, in game terms, means he is already above many potential tutors. Again, I wouldn't like to speculate whether he views himself as this in real life but if his rep is high in FM he'll likely not see the point of being tutored. Lamps' stock has fallen over the last year so it may be that his rep is actually lower than the youngster. I don't know the ins and outs of it but if you have Genie Scout you could check rather easily.

[Smac]

I am bothered by the fact that tutoring is a feature, and a pretty important one, and it is not even mentioned with one word in the manual (last time I checked). I am not saying they have to include matrixes to show exactly how to match different personalities for best effect, but I do expect them to tell the players how each tutoring option differs. I find it odd that I as a player has to visit these forums and search through tons of threads to find this kind of information.

Something generic could be written in the manual, like: [....]

There, nothing too much is revealed about how the mechanics of the tutoring session actually works, but some very basic points, that any manager should know, have been explained, and we don't have to sit and reverse engineer this every FM version, when the feature/options are changed, but with no word of what exactly is changed.

I agree. A general player's principle of FM is that:

The more you micromanage wisely, the better chance you have of succeeding.

To have such an important feature obfuscated as it is seems untidy at best. The lack of documentation combined with the lack of available data at the moment of decision turns an important and hugely consequential decision into a lottery ticket. Yes, you have better odds than state-run lotteries, but the point is the same: In a game where knowledge, patience, research, rationality, and strategy are the tools of success, to be cornered into flipping a coin in the dark seems a bit odd and arbitrarily so.

The argument that (and I realize you qualified this in your next post):

None of this is rocket science or surprising. [....] As for the documentation thing - everyone plays differently but if you approach it from a 'real-life football' perspective [my bold] rather than a computer-game perspective then much of the dynamics of the game become rather obvious, and most work exactly how you might expect.

just doesn't hold water for me at least. Just about none of the consequences of tutoring choices seem intuitive to me (when compared with each other). So whilst it may be exactly what you'd expect in 'real-life football', to me that seems quite a stretch! Furthermore, if it all is just as a player should expect, then why not document it? That seems a "have your cake and eat it too" argument. If none of it is surprising, then whether or not it is secret should have no importance, right?

I think tutoring is undocumented and fairly difficult to unmask for real game design reasons. It isn't simply overlooked because it is so obvious how it works, no. It is obfuscated.

1. This keeps some sense of there being magic and mystery to the game. "I know it must be logical and there must be a way for me to come to know it, but I can't quite get my head around it yet.... Just one more turn...."

2. This protects the player from experiencing busywork: If you know how to address each tutor-tutee pairing absolutely then the process of doing so becomes mere mechanics. Rather than extend the process into a conversational format as has been done in recent years (FM 11 and 12) the tutor-tutee process would have been more appropriately made less time-consuming. IE, The more busy-body-ish the process, the more streamlined it should be. However, the decision was taken to add realism and immersion-increasing elements to the game. A big big part of this is player-manager interaction, and tutoring clearly falls under the auspices of this mechanic. Therefore, whilst tutoring is a very important part of how we strategize and develop our squads, its mechanics have been absorbed into the "human immersion through conversation" model.

3. I don't think its really a deep enough module that SI feel it can be unmasked for what it is. Perhaps it isn't finished yet? Perhaps there isn't yet a vision for how to deepen or broaden the tutoring module such that it would warrant an unmasking? Consider player attributes. We get to see them. We know, basically, how they work and are supposed to work. How to develop them and how to judge them. But knowing this doesn't break the black-boxiness of the game because the Match Engine is so ingeniously complicated. You can never know in any certain way which attributes made the difference in any particular moment, let alone a whole match. Therefore having attributes available to the user doesn't threaten the whole experience of immersion: The experience of having all the data we need, but still being faced with huge uncertainties about how to apply that knowledge. The tutoring module is clearly miles away from that sort of complexity. Ergo: Hide the mechanics / data.

Personally, I don't agree with these choices. I'd much rather know how a clunky but important thing works than try to enjoy the player-interaction model. I think that only the most casual of players (which, granted, may be the bulk of consumers?) would prefer ignorance+conversational realism to useful data management. But I do understand, or at least I imagine I do, why SI would make them. And I have to admit, the magic of FM is what ultimately brings me back. If tutoring does that for someone else, then so much the better. For me, I'm really glad StormenDK and others in years past have put in the legwork to try and unmask the beast.

[furiousuk]

It's a good point that opinions on how real-life football work differ and so my statement about it being obvious over-simplifies the matter to the point of [my comment] being worthless.

My point is that I don't see what is so intriguing/odd/unknown about the 2 tutoring choices.

Top one is close pairing.

Bottom one is a loose pairing.

Top one gives you the most transference (i.e. good and potentially bad), bottom one gives you the least (less good but less bad potential).

In FM terms the only real negative of tutoring is transferring unnecessary/bad PPM's. (The other negative is poor relations related to unsuccessful tutoring but that's a different issue and, I think, not linked to the 2 options).

Maybe the wording in the game makes this ambiguous (I don't even know what the wording is because I don't pay that much attention) and maybe I'm not the best person to comment as I always choose option 1 (PPM transference is almost always fine for me).

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Ignoring the Newgen/Real Player situation for a moment, I really like the way the two options work, (thanks Cleon) I look forward to trying them out someday, if they remain unchanged

Furious, I would be very interested to know what the "Like" & "Dislike" scores are, if you have access to them when/if you get around to a further test. (and any changes in their relationship with the manager)

[furiousuk]

I haven't done any testing, think you mean StormenDK?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I haven't done any testing, think you mean StormenDK?

Wow! you may just be right, apologies all round, it's been a long day.

[StormenDK]

I will have to look into the dislike/like thing and see if that differs between sessions. I somehow doubt it though. Option 1 will give like, and second one no difference, and clash will give dislike.

If this is not a bug, but a design decision as Furious suggests, than I think it is just a bad design decision ... having an option that always give the same end result if the pairing doesn't fail, makes little sense to me. I liked it better in the old version where there were four outcomes, that you outlined previously. Even if a pairing doesn't fail horribly, it could still gain little in the relationship. Basically if you chose option 1, and the youngster learned nothing (no PPMs nor any stat shifts), he will still think he learned lots and admires the tutor. While in option 2, if he had a 70+ point stat shift, he will always be a bit disappointed as he feels that he learned only a little.

That part seems over-simplified in this edition, sadly.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I will have to look into the dislike/like thing and see if that differs between sessions. I somehow doubt it though. Option 1 will give like, and second one no difference, and clash will give dislike.

If this is not a bug, but a design decision as Furious suggests, than I think it is just a bad design decision ... having an option that always give the same end result if the pairing doesn't fail, makes little sense to me. I liked it better in the old version where there were four outcomes, that you outlined previously. Even if a pairing doesn't fail horribly, it could still gain little in the relationship. Basically if you chose option 1, and the youngster learned nothing (no PPMs nor any stat shifts), he will still think he learned lots and admires the tutor. While in option 2, if he had a 70+ point stat shift, he will always be a bit disappointed as he feels that he learned only a little.

That part seems over-simplified in this edition, sadly.

Just like every GK tutoring session I've ever seen. I'm hoping you do find more than the two outcomes, although I won't be holding my breath, anyway it woudn't make sense.

[StormenDK]

Since I am using Genie Scout, I can't really see the youngster's likes towards the tutor, or at least I haven't found this info anywhere.

[furiousuk]

It used to be in a relationships tab or something. Or maybe that was FMRTE? It's been a while

I'd agree that the 'like' and favoured personnel dynamic could be improved. I didn't realise the top option always gave favoured personnel between tutor and tutee (barring failure) and that the 2nd option didn't. I'd assumed the top (close pairing) option would have more chance of favoured and the bottom option less but not strict favoured or not.