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Year 2012: The Rise of the Machines - The Super Newgens in FM 2012

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I took the initiative to register on this forum, because as a player of CM/FM for over a decade, I detected a problem that originated that I completely lost interest in playing this game.

It's the worst bug that ever existed in all versions of this game. The problem is that the SI does not recognize it as such, but seems to be a decision made consciously.

That is, from the year 2012, football will undergo a global revolution that will trigger the potential of football players around the world, as if a new scientific discovery they were. I also find it amazing that there is virtually no debate on this matter and everyone is glad to have at least three Iniestas, two Ronaldos and one Messi in their team. This has always been the dream of any player in FM, but that dream until now, was only achievable in the long run and happened sporadically, even training the giants of European football.

In FM 2012 this dream is within reach of anyone, in the short to medium term, even coaching teams little more than reasonable, and this happens even need to be surrounded by bright scouts due to abundance of young Cyborgs scattered all over the world. Just give a kick a stone. Although you had not noticed? If the answer is no, then sorry to tell you but you are a leading zero in this game.

Never mind being here to debate whether you like it or not, because apparently the majority did not complain and seems to enjoy themselves with the power to control these young machines. In this respect just wanted to mention that this was never the essence of this game over time, but, closer to reality as possible, but maybe I'm getting old, I admit that yes ...

But I wanted to question SI, why and what explanation has, on the concrete fact in 2011 there are only 25 players less than 21 years with a PA greater than or equal to 175 and immediately the next year there are 50 and after three there are 120? Why the boom from year 2012? You guys can answer many of these youth will not reach the PA because defects in the distribution of attributes, but this, too can succeed with the real players, and yes, most of these cyborgs are well trained, at least for me, they will achieve is PA, and the problem is that every year there comes a truck full of them.

It is completely absurd!

At the end of my five season my eleven base is composed of nine newgens, all described as wonderkids, no longer be worth it to develop promising youngsters that there are real because they are too human compared with newgens that arise annually.

It's another dimension!

One of the things that gave me most pleasure was to take on real kids today have less than 21 years and develops them until they reach the top, but 99% no matter how good they were would never be any Messi, Ronaldo or Iniesta. In the background is the reality of the world of football. But the problem is that now these kids are too common after only 2 or 3 years, not worth it, hang on, because there comes a new shipment of newgens and 5 of them can reach the level of Ronaldo or Messi.

This was done to increase the competitiveness of the game in the long run and even the teams above, but completely changes the reality of the game.

I have tried to reduce the youth ranking of all nations in the editor by 40%, but even so! Every year there is a truck of Cyborgs ready to dominate the world in four or five years.

Most of you, apparently, is happy, I simply stopped playing, this game is over.

It makes no sense open topics about Verratti, Bertollacci, Neymar, Zouma, Fierro, Sanogo, Niang, etc., my boys (robots) are 10 times better.

I've been researching and saw that the SI acknowledged the existence of a bug with newgens unplayable nations, apparently been fixed in last patch, although the United States has three cyborgs with a PA greater than 175 only in the 4th season, but the problem is not only that, the underlying problem is the rise of the machines.

Before when talking about the FM with my friends there were always players fetish that everyone hired and developed for 5 or 6 years now, the answer is always the same:

- "You have to see the regen I have! I'm an American 18 years that makes Iniesta blush ..."

Until now the secret was to develop real young players with less than 21 years, with this FM the secret is to wait two years and then conquer all, with the small robot.

I know many people have fun with it, and that's okay, is that I have more respect, but please, then create an option for those whose essence of FM is still based on reality, not just to sell more copies in the United States and they have two wonderkids a year in its draft.

The point is that, in this version of FM did not even have time for real kids to develop and become superstars, they are quickly overtaken by robots that AI creates annually. And please do not come with the argument for me to ignore the newgens, because the fact of ignoring the problem does not mean it does not exist. If I just need to wait two years to have 20 players available much better for me left to make sense... It is true that every year come potential superstars but in due proportion of that history shows us.

Sorry for my english (basic), even with the precious help of a translator.

I hope that at least one general, my view has been shown, whether or not agree with it

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Your english is really good, first of all.

Secondly, I agree with you to an extent, the next generation of does generally seem to be more talented than the originals. However, if the overall quality was decreased I believe more people would complain that they could not build this world-beating team, that they aim to.

My main problem with newgensis that the stat distribution isn't accurate, and that everyone is ridiculously fast. Everyone. In every position. Thats a possible exaggeration, just so I don't get flamed.

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I don't think this year is as bad as some FM versions, but I would take good newgens over poor ones any day. I can't remember what FM it was, but newgen goalkeepers never developed and you were lucky if you got a good one. Made long terms saves really bad as hardly any clubs had good goalkeepers.

I agree there are quite a few newgens that are simply too good at 17-18yrs old. If SI reduced the CA of youngsters and make it more rare for superstar wonderkids, they need to fix the AI player development issues first. If that happened now, AI clubs simply wouldn't play or develop any of the newgens so they would stall and remain poor. Later on, the pool of newgens would be low CA 22-23yr olds

If SI improve the AI squad development then I think this area would follow. Atm though, I don't want to be a testing ground for SI to see if they get them right. I do believe they are on the right track atm by making small changes each version.

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There might be many god newgens, but tell me one thing - how many of them really made it big? Even though their PA is higher than 175, they won't be able to develop without a guidance of you or AI big club. I think it reflects the real life situation pretty well. You could build a "robot team" with the likes of Fierro, Verratti etc. too. There's no difference between them and wonderkid newgens.

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This has actually been extensively discussed and acknowledged as a problem by SI. Here is the first major thread on the subject. Here is a follow-up and another. Not saying the issue isn't worth discussing again (it is), but it is an acknowledged problem.

I would also note that part of the immediate jump in the number of high PA players is due to the number of young players that have -9 (variable) PA, so it's not just an issue of newgens but also the fact that many real life prospects are overrated.

FWIW, this wasn't a conscious decision on the part of SI, but appears to be a consequence of attempting to respond to concerns over a lack of decent regens in prior versions. However, achieving a realistic balance is a major challenge.

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all my newgens for 2-3 seasons are nowhere near that standard, get the odd rough diamond from Africa. but i have only ever seen 1 PA 200, that was a belarussian(?) DM in the first database.

the main problem i have is that quite a lot of the youth currently in the game is actually low quality, these players that get rave reviews, dominate reserve/youth league never get anywhere near first team in the game. then the newgens come along and surpass them

i have seen a couple of very good 165 PA players that could play in any top club. and some dire 190's

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been saying it for years... biggest flaw with the game.. after 2 or 3 seasons.. the game becomes pointless for me... why did i bother nurturing the likes of luke shaw, wilshere etc when i can pick up a dozen newgens in 2013 who are 15 and already better than most of my first team squad.. and only for compensation....

game breaking...

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in my save on United I have wilshere playing in my united team in season 3 ;), he develops well enough, newgens are rough diamonds and are still used rarely.

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I think the volume of high PA newgens is to compensate for the AI's inability for the most part to develop youth players this way there are an acceptable level of good quality players compared to very little if there was only 30 with PA in the 170+ bracket.

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Don't be blinded by high CA/PA numbers. Very few of the so-called "world beaters" populating the game world the first ten seasons actually manage to get playing-time in their respective clubs. Even the "look at my newgen" threads have few "messi-killers" who are actually better than him.

Just look at this screenshot of Barcelona anno 2017:

romagamebarcelonascreen.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Only two of the first teamers are regens. Do you really think that five seasons from now you would have known about all the big talents of Barcelona for five years already?

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Aye. Very few of these newgens with high potential will become any good at all - due to poor key stats (specially the hidden stats). Some of them will even fail to become professional, or will suffice to play somewhwere in the lower leagues. If there is a problem, it is one very much exaggarated in importance by the op ... and others.

You should rather look at how many of these youngsters are nearing their potential in 5-6 years time. I'll bet that there's not many. So - everyone get their own Messi with a bit of training? No. Far from it.

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Aye. Very few of these newgens with high potential will become any good at all - due to poor key stats (specially the hidden stats). Some of them will even fail to become professional, or will suffice to play somewhwere in the lower leagues. If there is a problem, it is one very much exaggarated in importance by the op ... and others.

You should rather look at how many of these youngsters are nearing their potential in 5-6 years time. I'll bet that there's not many. So - everyone get their own Messi with a bit of training? No. Far from it.

Not too sure about that.

On my all leagues save (2046/47 season) there are currently just under 195,000 players with 1140 having a PA between 165-200 & in that group group 163 are currently at a CA within 5 points of their PA value with 60 showing CA/PA parity.

On the flip side a search for players aged 24-29 with a PA of 165+ who have a CA value that is 30 points or more below their PA brought up 168 matches, this initial data suggests that the chances of a player reaching their potential are greater than they are of falling short, only 21 of the 168 are more than 75 points short of their PA.

In contrast at the very beginning there are just over 200,000 using the same league & database setup with just 383 players having a PA of 165-200, I didn't run the CA/PA comparative filter as it didn't seem to have any value in this circumstance.

I also noticed that at the start of game there are only 5 players with a PA greater than 190 whereas in 2046 there are 5 players with a PA of 199-200 (Messi ability) & 29 with a PA greater that 190.

Final figure is for players with a CA of 165+, in 2012 it's 58 & in 2046 it's 210.

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Not too sure about that.

On my all leagues save (2046/47 season) there are currently just under 195,000 players with 1140 having a PA between 165-200 & in that group group 163 are currently at a CA within 5 points of their PA value with 60 showing CA/PA parity.

On the flip side a search for players aged 24-29 with a PA of 165+ who have a CA value that is 30 points or more below their PA brought up 168 matches, this initial data suggests that the chances of a player reaching their potential are greater than they are of falling short, only 21 of the 168 are more than 75 points short of their PA.

In contrast at the very beginning there are just over 200,000 using the same league & database setup with just 383 players having a PA of 165-200, I didn't run the CA/PA comparative filter as it didn't seem to have any value in this circumstance.

I also noticed that at the start of game there are only 5 players with a PA greater than 190 whereas in 2046 there are 5 players with a PA of 199-200 (Messi ability) & 29 with a PA greater that 190.

Final figure is for players with a CA of 165+, in 2012 it's 58 & in 2046 it's 210.

As I said in one other thread, those numbers means absolutely nothing. In the original database, the CA is distributed deliberately and with good knowledge of what makes a good player and what does not. In addition, the non-weighted attributes are set to match that CA. Regens are entirely random within some very general football culture templates and position templates. Thus, a high CA original database player is certainly good with a few exceptions, while a high CA regen can be worthless garbage.

Go 5-6 seasons into the future (when the first regens become 20-23 years old) and see to which degree they dominate the game world. Skip the entire scout program argument - it isn't providing evidence for your case at all.

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if you run this hrough geniescout, it shows as a % how good a player will be in its best positon, messi is just over 85% you need to be aiming for around 75% for mid premier league. (although from observation as a player develops it can fluctuate a few %) but i have seen 165-175 PA in the 75-80% and i even saw a 200PA as low as 72% so yes, it is meaningless really. it is about placement the % doesnt really matter about any of that, it is what you want out of a player that matters, i have used players with current % 65-70% to great effect.

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After reading your posts, I'm still more disappointed. Especially after learning that after all others before me, had raised this issue for much longer, until they have even presented evidence and SI have done nothing.

As I mentioned in my initial post, the decision to dramatically increase the level of generated players from 2012 was a conscious decision by the SI.

But why?

- It was not based on any historical fact, this is obviously not happened in the history of world football a boom of players from a certain date, we all already knew that, this is too absurd to even take into account;

- Perhaps to compensate for deficiencies in the AI of the game and to maintain high competitiveness in the long term;

- Or, and worst of all, to increase the volume of sales in the most populous nations, even if this is necessary to completely misrepresent the essence of this game (reality), this is obviously only result in immediate and may spell the end of this game in medium term.

Other issues discussed suits:

"Don't be blinded by high CA/PA numbers"

Those who understand this, argue that the defects of newgens have in hidden attributes, which determines that in the future do not reach the potential and are not as good as they appear (very high PA) and as such, the ideal is to create many to save a few.

This argument makes no sense, because first, you make a mistake with another, then, is to deny the obvious, that is, unless you are a nonentity in this game, given the volume of Galacticos that arrives each year, several of them will fall into your hands and replace the short term the real players.

GAME BREAKING!

been saying it for years... biggest flaw with the game.. after 2 or 3 seasons.. the game becomes pointless for me... why did i bother nurturing the likes of luke shaw, wilshere etc when i can pick up a dozen newgens in 2013 who are 15 and already better than most of my first team squad.. and only for compensation....

This is exactly what I feel ...

The first two years, you can restrict yourself to handle, because you know what the future will be brighter! The gap between the CA and PA of the newgens is so great that you can mold these players the way they see fit. And if you still want to add a tutor in one of those newgens, with 15, 16 or 17 years when they have 20 years has easily four, five or more 20 in key attributes.

It is a complete and utter nonsense.

I just want to stress again that for the first time in my life I will not buy the next FM, because the SI cheated their customers, as admitted a bug, that bug was not even the essential and even that was not corrected.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/300961-12.2-regens-from-inactive-nations-how-is-the-situation-now/page2

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After reading your posts, I'm still more disappointed. Especially after learning that after all others before me, had raised this issue for much longer, until they have even presented evidence and SI have done nothing.

As I mentioned in my initial post, the decision to dramatically increase the level of generated players from 2012 was a conscious decision by the SI.

But why?

- It was not based on any historical fact, this is obviously not happened in the history of world football a boom of players from a certain date, we all already knew that, this is too absurd to even take into account;

- Perhaps to compensate for deficiencies in the AI of the game and to maintain high competitiveness in the long term;

- Or, and worst of all, to increase the volume of sales in the most populous nations, even if this is necessary to completely misrepresent the essence of this game (reality), this is obviously only result in immediate and may spell the end of this game in medium term.

Other issues discussed suits:

Those who understand this, argue that the defects of newgens have in hidden attributes, which determines that in the future do not reach the potential and are not as good as they appear (very high PA) and as such, the ideal is to create many to save a few. This argument makes no sense, because first, you make a mistake with another, then, is to deny the obvious, that is, unless you are a nonentity in this game, given the volume of Galacticos that arrives each year, several of them will fall into your hands and replace the short term the real players.

GAME BREAKING!

This is exactly what I feel ...

I just want to stress again that for the first time in my life I will not buy the next FM, because the SI cheated their customers, as admitted a bug, that bug was not even the essential and even that was not corrected.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/300961-12.2-regens-from-inactive-nations-how-is-the-situation-now/page2

Neh you are overexaggerating what is essentially a non-issue.

If I can't get rid of the garbage at my current club and replace it with promising youngsters pretty darn quick, I won't be motivated to play this game at all. I am quite sure that many, if not a majority, of the other customers feel exactly the same way. I don't really care if the talent exists in the original database or not, the gameworld (and the real world) makes sure that it is too expensive for most clubs to buy proven quality, so it is necessary to replace overpaid old geezers with players who have a future.

I do admit that currently I tend to ignore real players because I know all the ones who will become good, so if the name is new I view him with quite a bit of sceptisism. Most young players in the original database is in dire need of tutoring, while it is much easier to find a young regen with a good personality and Determination. This, however, is not a programming issue, but a data issue. I understand perfectly well that the researchers don't want to make it too certain that a promising youngster will reach his potential, but it would benefit the game as a whole to make sure that some of them do if they get match experience - because tutoring is such a hit-and-miss and the AI is very poor at it.

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This is a nonsense argument since you obviously use third party add ons and probly have player masking turned off.

Personly I have never had a wonderkid come through my youth system in all the time playing FM, though I have never played a top 4 team, never used a scout program and the numbers quoted mean absolutely nothing to me, I don't spend half a day searching through the database for a wonderkid.

If you use everything to make the game easy, it will be easy and less of a challenge.

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This is a nonsense argument since you obviously use third party add ons and probly have player masking turned off.

Personly I have never had a wonderkid come through my youth system in all the time playing FM, though I have never played a top 4 team, never used a scout program and the numbers quoted mean absolutely nothing to me, I don't spend half a day searching through the database for a wonderkid.

If you use everything to make the game easy, it will be easy and less of a challenge.

As a llama I do not use 3rd party tools (FM scout was installed when looking into a bug), I have attribute masking turned on & I only use what I consider realistic methods to find new players.

Even with a style of play that many consider restrictive by 2034/25 my RB Leipzig side had 26 players with a PA over 170 of which 8 had a CA over 170, 17 players had a position rating over 70% with only 7 of those being over 25 & of those 7 the largest CA/PA gap was 15 for a player with a position rating of 76%.

Thanks to a system that will see more players reach their potential than won't I & a few AI team were able to put together teams that on paper were better than the often lauded Barcelona & more importantly had a much greater depth of ability throughout the squad, for me the problem is not as simple as too many quality newgens but the ease at which the user & to an extent the AI can ensure that these players meet their potential.

Going back to my 2046/47 file there are 263 players with a positional CA over 75% & only 119 in the same range at the start of the game.

There's not enough individual failure in the world of FM.

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I agree, but I remember the giant threads full of whining that newgens weren't good enough and I don't think SI will open this particular can of worms again.

Edit: Although this problem may be partially remedied by the users by adjusting each nation's youth rating.

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This is a nonsense argument since you obviously use third party add ons and probly have player masking turned off.

Personly I have never had a wonderkid come through my youth system in all the time playing FM, though I have never played a top 4 team, never used a scout program and the numbers quoted mean absolutely nothing to me, I don't spend half a day searching through the database for a wonderkid.

If you use everything to make the game easy, it will be easy and less of a challenge.

I just used the genie, because as I mentioned in my fifth season, had nine newgens on my eleven all described as wonderkids. So I decided to check what was happening.

That's when I checked the numbers absurdities that have been more than unmasked. That is, from 2012 the potential duplicates, then triples and so on.

The problem is the volume of newgens incredibly good that comes out every year, which respects no logic and do not even have time for young players to develop real, they are quickly outdated.

I also was pleased to find newgens in dark clubs, with the potential to be world class players, but now on FM 2012, is too easy, because they are a pest and are everywhere.

They reproduce like rabbits, from 2012.

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I agree, but I remember the giant threads full of whining that newgens weren't good enough and I don't think SI will open this particular can of worms again.

Edit: Although this problem may be partially remedied by the users by adjusting each nation's youth rating.

I've tried to reduce all the rankings by 40% but the volume remains the same, no point, the individual level decreases slightly but remains a plague.

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Lol, sorry to be so presumptuous, I was in a funny mood last night.

I wonder if the problem is more to do with development, like has been stated.

Personally I think the whole thing is a bit strange and am not an expert at all, players say in Australia (not being disrespectful, I am Australian) probably shouldn't reach a certain potential, not exclusively because Australia struggles in developing players, more the process of development in the game. CA gained / lost should be calculated depending on the strength of the opposition played against? That said, strength of a competition should be static (because this is and has always been a variable) and not calculated purely on reputation, as it is now.

That would probably cancel out a lot of the problem with flooding newgens, as most would never reach their potential.

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I've tried to reduce all the rankings by 40% but the volume remains the same, no point, the individual level decreases slightly but remains a plague.

On my United EU-youth save, I actually started with genie intending to purchase anything 150+. That soon spiralled into a 170+ though because, just the EU alone throws up a ton of 170+PA players.

The ones I have are all reaching their potential. However, the AI acquired talents do not usually reach their potential because (surprise surprise) they only evaluate on reputation. Case in point, a 170+ talent Polish lad was considered "rubbish" compared to an 170+ talent Italian. But they'll both be world class. The polish lad would never have been picked up by a club and he would have likely never reached his potential.

Another point is that some of the 'world class' potentials are 19 year old regens. In those cases, it'll be impressive if a human player gets them to their potential let alone the AI especially if their CA is a bit behind the pack.

So yeah, although there's a huge volume of top top quality talents, I don't think people are taking into account age of creation and/or AI mismanagement. Very few will be developed well by the AI in my honest opinion. But that's the game for you. :p

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Going back to my 2046/47 file there are 263 players with a positional CA over 75% & only 119 in the same range at the start of the game.

As it should be. Athletes get better over time. Look at the olympics, the times athletes are running now are, on average, better than the times they were running 30 years ago. You'd expect footballers 30 years from now to be, on average, better than those today too.

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I dont think there is an issue with Newgens.

Yes there are alot of them, but on my game, im in the year 2020 and there are only 6 players 190+ CA. Thats not a huge amount.

There are more 170+ CA players than at the start but not all of them work out or develop, as alot of them dont seem to get picked up by the bigger teams due to low starting CA.

My suggestion (if your fed up of seeing so mayny 170+PA players is to stop looking at the scouting programmes, and use your own scouts. Half the youngsters will get missed by the big clubs and wont develop. Simple

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As it should be. Athletes get better over time. Look at the olympics, the times athletes are running now are, on average, better than the times they were running 30 years ago. You'd expect footballers 30 years from now to be, on average, better than those today too.

The problem with that way of thinking is that the upper limit of ability in FM is fixed (rightly so) which means that the performance envelope does not move forward, in essense the world best player today will still be the worlds best player if he was transporter 40 years into the future.

I dont think there is an issue with Newgens.

Yes there are alot of them, but on my game, im in the year 2020 and there are only 6 players 190+ CA. Thats not a huge amount.

There are more 170+ CA players than at the start but not all of them work out or develop, as alot of them dont seem to get picked up by the bigger teams due to low starting CA.

My suggestion (if your fed up of seeing so mayny 170+PA players is to stop looking at the scouting programmes, and use your own scouts. Half the youngsters will get missed by the big clubs and wont develop. Simple

Well done for not actually reading the posts, the 3rd part tool was used to see if the Op was actually on to something, it is not something I ever use on my saves yet I still noticed a trend to the game having a larger amount of top quality players.

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I agree that not many real young players are able to develop fully and can get taken over by newgens but this is probably to stop the game being ridiculously easy from the beginning like the old days of CM00/01, 01/02, 02/03 etc. In those games it was always so easy for everyone to buy the same players like Cherno Samba, Mark Kerr, Stefan Selakovic, etc. who would be guaranteed to become world stars.

By limiting the PA of the current crop of young stars, not everybody is ending up with the same starting eleven.

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I do not believe there is any kind of deliberate attempt to limit or even handicap the potential of real players, the problem for me is that it is too easy coach player so that they reach their potential whereas the AI will in a realistic manner fail to guide some of their talented youngsters to greatness.

When you add in the higher instance of top level potential players being generated by the game then the advantage afforded to the user is even greater.

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Best position ratings for regens are rubbish

this guy maxed about 80% when he'd maxed out, nah, think he was a bit better than that.

BirhanuTefferaOverview_Attributes-1.png

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Going back to my 2046/47 file there are 263 players with a positional CA over 75% & only 119 in the same range at the start of the game.

Has your database size increased?

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So in my Dortmund save game it's kinda funny because during the first 4 years of that save game there was a huge amount of 190+ PA players, in fact so many that I edited some of very small footballing nations to a lower rating. Now during my 5th season this seemed to die down notably and now I have only 5-6 PA of 18X every year and almost no 19X players anymore. It looks much more realistic now that there are only one 19X PA talent every few years and only a handful of 18X talents every year.

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Has your database size increased?

Nope, as I said in an earlier post the current player pool is ca.195k & the starting player pool is ca.200k.

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An amount of quality young players higher than irl is hardly game-breaking, as long as the squad building AI is good enough to let AI teams chase and develop them about as much and well as human users.

The oppositie was a problem for quite a few years in the past. I remember lots of threads going on about how few good youngsters there were and that those few who were in the game did not develop properly or had some hugely inbalanced attributes which made them useless (like a 160 CA defender with 5 in positioning).

Apparently SI have reacted to this by allowing a bigger number of quality regens to appear. They may have gone a tad too far (assuming that the stats provided in the OP are valid for most saves), but I certainly prefer it this way rather than how it was before. The only problem with it seems to be that human users gain an unfair advantage over the AI teams because they can exploit the better raw material more than the AI.

In my views, therefore the player and squad development AI is what SI should concentrate on improving because that needs improvement a lot and would en passant at least deal with the effect of the issue discussed here.

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It's an issue we're aware of and we're looking into. However saying that do please remember that PA and CA are not the be all and end all. Consistency is constantly overlooked as a very very important stat for these players, a 190 CA player with a consistency of 1 will only play at that level on game out of 20, so a 165 player with a constancy of 20 will be the vastly superior player for your club.

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Really think some of the issue is down to the natural developement of players through training. The developement today is to heavily concentrated around first team action and the professionalstat wich are nutured by good choice of tutors. Having players naturally progress through training, especially at big clubs with state of the art training facilities and top notch players around them (look barcelona, manchester united etc.) When training at such clubs players shouldn't stay under 100 CA points for for years past their 24th birthday.

How professional a player is undoubtably has a say in how a player progresses. But there is a tons of examples of unproffesional players who went on to be gods in football. Just look at Maradona, former cocaine addict was one of the best the world has ever seen. Even though you ain't totally ready for first team action when 15, might be unproffesional. The standard training sessions at La Masia, or at Carrington should be more then enough to have a steady CA progression.

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It's an issue we're aware of and we're looking into. However saying that do please remember that PA and CA are not the be all and end all. Consistency is constantly overlooked as a very very important stat for these players, a 190 CA player with a consistency of 1 will only play at that level on game out of 20, so a 165 player with a constancy of 20 will be the vastly superior player for your club.

That's true, but this is just another example of how the world of regens is so much different from the world of real players and how the AI doesn't really know how to cope with it. With regens, hidden attributes like this are far more erratic with many more players having highly volatile personalities. There are thousands and thousands more regens with extreme hidden attributes... and problematically, the AI doesn't recognize hidden attributes... so while a consistency 20/165 CA player will be better, the AI will always prefer the consistency 1/190 CA player. So while the player can look at form, team talk reactions and the personality/media-handling description to identify a psychotic regen, those psychotic regens can find their way onto a large team and flop in the starting XI for years and years. It's similar to the issue of bravery with defensive midfielders. Human players know to look for DMs with a good bravery so they'll actually make hard tackles... but after all the real DMs (who, on average, have very high bravery) retire, you'll frequently see AI teams playing DMs with bravery in the single digits.

And then there's the issue of whether consistency is really a necessary attribute. Isn't consistency in the real world simply a result of determination, pressure-handling, professionalism and morale? Certainly, in the real world, there isn't some magical thing that randomly causes sudden mental and physical deterioration on match day. Does it really make sense to have a separate unexplained quality called "consistency" and doesn't the large number of potentially player-breaking hidden attributes just make the task of balancing the regen population that much more difficult?

How professional a player is undoubtably has a say in how a player progresses. But there is a tons of examples of unproffesional players who went on to be gods in football. Just look at Maradona, former cocaine addict was one of the best the world has ever seen. Even though you ain't totally ready for first team action when 15, might be unproffesional. The standard training sessions at La Masia, or at Carrington should be more then enough to have a steady CA progression.

I think part of the problem here is that there is some confusion about what Professionalism represents and how some researchers have interpreted the attribute for real world players. Professionalism, for the most part, represents a player's work ethic in training... and it's very possible to have a volatile personality who trains very well. Luis Suarez is a great example of this. He has a horrible temperament, is very controversial and is very unsporting... but he's a consummate professional when it comes to improving his game on the training ground. However, since there seems to be some confusion about what "Professionalism" represents, he has a low Professionalism and, thus, doesn't improve much in FM12 and declines quickly if he picks up an injury.

The same can be said for players like Joey Barton, Maradona, etc.... controversial, volatile personalities who, despite their flaws, still take their football very seriously.

You'll find this misconception that Professionalism overlaps with Controversy, Dirtiness, Temperament, etc. throughout the initial database, but in terms of regens, I don't see anything wrong with Professionalism being such an important aspect of player development. SI just needs to make it clear to researchers that it has a much more narrow definition than many of them seem to think and that many of real world football's more "entertaining" personalities can be adequately represented through other hidden attributes.

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Thinking that footballers will always stay at the same standard as they are now for the rest of time is unrealistic. There is no reason why footballers in the future won't be better than they are now. In fact, given better standards of coaching, sports science and football ever getting more popular and squeezing out more sports and expanding into new areas, it is probably more realistic if FM models footballers as being better in the next 10-20 years than they are now.

As has already been said on the thread, the main issue is if the AI can handle this or not.

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So in my Dortmund save game it's kinda funny because during the first 4 years of that save game there was a huge amount of 190+ PA players, in fact so many that I edited some of very small footballing nations to a lower rating. Now during my 5th season this seemed to die down notably and now I have only 5-6 PA of 18X every year and almost no 19X players anymore. It looks much more realistic now that there are only one 19X PA talent every few years and only a handful of 18X talents every year.

A part of the problem is the way high-PA regens are distributed. There's not a fixed amount of each PA range produced. Rather, every nation independently has some chance of producing an awesome regen. This would be fine if there weren't a lot of really tiny nations that really shouldn't be producing any quality players at all. But since there are a lot of them... there's a big chance you'll see a 190+ PA regen coming from places like Liberia, Panama, Turkmenistan etc. Collectively, all those low probabilities add up.

As you said, you can workaround that for the most part by just setting the youth rating for smaller nations to single digits, but that's not a perfect solution.

A better solution would be to have country regen production similar to club regen recruitment where the regens are produced and then distributed based on a mix of youth attributes and reputation. That way you could also more precisely control the number of high PA regens being produced instead of having to try to calibrate the youth output of 207 different nations individually.

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Thinking that footballers will always stay at the same standard as they are now for the rest of time is unrealistic. There is no reason why footballers in the future won't be better than they are now. In fact, given better standards of coaching, sports science and football ever getting more popular and squeezing out more sports and expanding into new areas, it is probably more realistic if FM models footballers as being better in the next 10-20 years than they are now.

As has already been said on the thread, the main issue is if the AI can handle this or not.

The problem is the revolution begin immediately in 2012. From that magical year, the level doubles, then triples and so on.

It is absurd that for over a decade of this game, there has been only one player with a fixed PA 200 and my last save at the end of the fourth season two already exist with this maximum.

I believe to be no nonsense to say that all of us squeamish to find a sporadically Galactic hidden in a dark club, but not 20 or 30 all the years, from 2012.

It's not worth investing in young real promises.

There are things that make no sense, for example, does not exist in the starting database a single player with less than 18 years, with tackling greater or equal than to 16 and from 2012 there are four, with these values, and only with 15 years old (This is an example of several). The evolution / revolution that many people proclaim that it will give in the world football is not gradual, it is rather a blast (in FM 12)!

And they are born in all corners of the world, often in places where the change is stagnant in terms of football.

For me the argument that football is constantly undergoing a qualitative, also makes no sense, the story is not that it shows us. The quality of football depends on the individual talent of players and talent do not choose generations or evolve over the years. Football evolves above the tactical and physical level, but there are now more players with talent and potential than that which existed 20 years ago.

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It's an issue we're aware of and we're looking into. However saying that do please remember that PA and CA are not the be all and end all. Consistency is constantly overlooked as a very very important stat for these players, a 190 CA player with a consistency of 1 will only play at that level on game out of 20, so a 165 player with a constancy of 20 will be the vastly superior player for your club.

The SI has to resolve this matter urgently, because the players do not recognize this problem, do not want to play Football Manager, in essence, but a game in which they are indifferent to the fact that the players are based on real or not. For them the researchers could all be dismissed.

The FM is a game in which up to very recently was used by real coaches to find real talents, and especially for players who believe that certain players with the right opportunity and the right hands could reach another level. Robben and Zlatan were world class players in FM before they are in reality. Or create an option for those who want to play another game in the future, not the actual football, basically those who believe in a revolution in the short term.

I want to continue to believe that the essence of this game, with all faults and risks that obviously will always succeed, it is reality.

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been saying it for years... biggest flaw with the game.. after 2 or 3 seasons.. the game becomes pointless for me... why did i bother nurturing the likes of luke shaw, wilshere etc when i can pick up a dozen newgens in 2013 who are 15 and already better than most of my first team squad.. and only for compensation....

game breaking...

+1

........

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I know how you feel.

One of many players that came 3/4 of the first season.

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The question is; Why should I use my time to develop the youth that is in the game from the beginning, when I can buy players that are 14-15 years old (2-3 years younger) and has the same current ability (or pretty near), and is rated with a higher potensial ability.

In my game it looks like the most of these "un-human-like" youngsters comes from france and germany.

(I have not scouted in England yet - I'm managing Arsenal)

I dont use Genie scout - but if I had used it maybe i would find tenths of equal players from other contries

I hope it would be some changes to FM13.

For 2-3 years ago I suggested that regens / newgens would be introduced to the game after the second season - when the 16 yo in game is over youth-league niveau (U18)

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The question is; Why should I use my time to develop the youth that is in the game from the beginning, when I can buy players that are 14-15 years old (2-3 years younger) and has the same current ability (or pretty near), and is rated with a higher potensial ability.

Because real youth are arguably better than regens. In both my 2030+ Manchester City saves, a regen didn't win Golden Ball until 2025. And before you ask, no, it wasn't Messi and Ronaldo winning it up to then.

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I'm in 2031.

13 players have CAs 180 and over. Only one of those is at 190.

I consider anything 180 and over to be world class. If anything, it seems like the youth is worse than the real players. The game has balanced out quite nicely for me.

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Don't be blinded by high CA/PA numbers. Very few of the so-called "world beaters" populating the game world the first ten seasons actually manage to get playing-time in their respective clubs. Even the "look at my newgen" threads have few "messi-killers" who are actually better than him.

Just look at this screenshot of Barcelona anno 2017:

romagamebarcelonascreen.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Only two of the first teamers are regens. Do you really think that five seasons from now you would have known about all the big talents of Barcelona for five years already?

how the **** is Carles Puyol still getting 40 games a season at 39 ffs? :D

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I think regens are fine as they are, without the use scouting programs a lot of high PA wont be found and wont reach their potential. The game would be probably be very boring if there was only one 190+ PA player generated every 10 seasons.

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I think regens are fine as they are, without the use scouting programs a lot of high PA wont be found and wont reach their potential. The game would be probably be very boring if there was only one 190+ PA player generated every 10 seasons.

IMO this is a very valid point. You all only know the PA etc using external tools, if you did not you would not know that 25 players had a PA of 180, it would be up to you to find them. There are easy ways, like scouring the bigger nations national youth sides etc but I agree that there would be a good few of those players never heard of nor reach their potential.

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Don't be blinded by high CA/PA numbers. Very few of the so-called "world beaters" populating the game world the first ten seasons actually manage to get playing-time in their respective clubs. Even the "look at my newgen" threads have few "messi-killers" who are actually better than him.

Only two of the first teamers are regens. Do you really think that five seasons from now you would have known about all the big talents of Barcelona for five years already?

That's actually a very valid point you are making here.

Despite all the great talents the game has generated over the last 12 season for me (2023 atm) Messi and CR both were their most important players until around 36 years old and there was no replacement in sight.

The major reason for that imo is that the AI is really bad at developing their newgens.

While almost all the major talents I picked up broke into my first team by the age of 21 the opposition teams kept playing the same old faces until they were to old to run anymore.

It's a big problem because it will be too easy for a player to build a world class team while opposition gradually gets worse and worse because their old players decline and still aren't replaced.

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