The FM 41221 (433 - 451 - WoW)

[Gee_Simpson]

I used that shape against Barcelona and tend to use it against teams that like to employ width. It is a bit of a got to formation as well because of its good link up potential. A ME flaw? Do tell!

So your original shape is the 4231 deep I take it? Any chance of posting a screenshot?

Regarding the ME flaw, Cleon mentions it here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/308159-2-DMs-gt-2-MCs?p=7930652&viewfull=1#post7930652

Read the few posts above and below this for a general idea.

[Gee_Simpson]

I know this is a bit of a generic question but as I like my striker to contribute with goals, which role provides more goals, DLF (a) or DLF (s)?

[Shakes]

I guess if you are playing as Arsenal, Barcelona or Chelsea then having a big strong striker won't be as important, because the rest of the team will be of such high quality that they will help you keep possession regardless. But with a weaker side behind him a nippy little fellow will just make you lose the ball again and again if you try to attack, especially against an established defence.

This is the main reason why I have found this formation impractical at a lower or medium level.

I used this formation exclusively to go from 6th tier to winning the champions league, so I disagree with this. It's practical at any level, and it's practical to play a quick striker, if anything it works better at lower level because the relative difference between the speed of your attackers and the opponents CBs tends to be higher. I feel like if you want to play a nippy fellow you have to commit to it: you want to let him loose and let him run, which means that as you say you will lose the ball. So embrace that and give up on possession football: the game is won on the scoreboard, not the possession bar.

I set my team up a little differently to what's been described by most people in this thread, typically:

FB: WB Support

CD: Cover Defend

CD: Stopper Defend

FB: WB Support

DM: DM Support

CM: CM Attack

CM: DLP Defend (checked as play maker)

AML: IF Attack

AMR: IF Attack

ST: CF Support

Just because you're playing a lone striker doesn't mean he has to be the focus of your attack. What I like to play up front is a complete forward support, combined with two inside forward attack players. The two inside forwards are generally strikers retrained to play AML/R. All three players are usually poacher types: acceleration, pace, flair, finishing and composure are the key attributes I looked for when signing players. Then I play the one with the best play maker type stats as the complete forward and the other two take the AML/R spots. I don't worry too much about footedness, as I found having inverted wingers over rated: good players score goals, bad players don't, regardless of which side you put them on.

I know the guy I'm playing as a complete forward isn't really "complete", but don't get hung up on the name of the role, the idea for me is just to get him sitting back a bit to get the front line more of a 3 while still having a guy who will look to get forward and score for himself and not just play others in. I find the complete forward support role sets a player up to do that best of the predefined roles (I don't really like to tweak the sliders too much as that renders shouts ineffective).

The other advantage of this approach is it makes squad management a hell of a lot easier. A single striker is a nightmare: you rely on him so much so you need good backup if he gets injured, but if he stays fit you have moaners on the bench not getting time (and sucking up salary). When your IF players are guys who can slot into the striker position then this becomes a lot simpler to rotate games through the guys and cover injuries.

One problem in the lower leagues can be getting the players trained in the position before you move up and they're no longer good players for that level, so you have to buy ready made players. In a different save I have played a variation when the best players I could get played AMC so I made a narrow version with two IFs sitting in the AMC position. Was probably even more deadly on attack, as the players starting narrower meant it often set up 3 on 2 situations where the CBs got outnumbered. However the AML/R positions provide better defensive shape for sure.

Midfield wise the key role is the DLP defend. I chose this role for a couple of reasons: firstly I'm playing three quick players up front so I want him to make space, sit back and ping through balls for them to run on, not crowd things up. Secondly with inside forwards narrowing the formation I feel wing backs are the best use of the full backs, and a DLP defend helps sit back a bit and provide extra cover for the CBs and DM. I'm not aiming to defend by having 75% possession like some people, setting up with 3 speedsters up front means I want players taking risks on long passes and through balls into space so having men back a bit is important to me. On the other hand the other CM is set to attack because I found having that forth player arrive late to join the attack gives you another avenue to goal. With the defense focussed on the threat of the three front guys it often leaves him unmarked and with the right player he'll sneak a dozen or so goals a year that way.

Anyway that's just what worked for me, not saying it's the only or best way to set it up. I used the 4-1-2-2-1 through all levels and basically kept this frame work the whole way. I trained 3 versions of it to use where I'd tweak the team instructions and maybe a couple of roles depending on match state, but nothing drastic (eg my defensive version to keep a lead I make a few players a touch more defensive and play shorter passing to keep possession). It really can work at any level, you don't need to find world beaters, you just need to work out what the players you're able to recruit can do and go out and fit the pieces together.

[furiousuk]

I know this is a bit of a generic question but as I like my striker to contribute with goals, which role provides more goals, DLF (a) or DLF (s)?

I'd have to say the Attack role will produce more goals as he'll be more attacking and play slightly higher. Probably doesn't make much difference though. Getting a striker to score goals is about picking the right guy and picking a style of play that suits that guy.

For my 41221 tactics the goals are always fairly well distributed with FC and AMR getting the majority of the goals (purely because they are the best goal-scorers). But AML gets a fair number and the midfielders tend to chip in, even though they aren't really set up to be a goal-scoring threat.

In contrast, I'm developing a 4312 which is firmly placed on getting the FCl (usually a poacher or targetman-attack) to score the majority of the goals - it is certainly set up that both strikers are the only real goal-scoring threats. Whilst the others do, of course, contribute in my last game against Everton all 18 shots came from the FCs. Not something I will always want but it's what I've set up to do - particularly in that game.

In strict terms I'd always consider the vanilla DLF a creator and not a scorer anyway.

I feel like if you want to play a nippy fellow you have to commit to it: you want to let him loose and let him run, which means that as you say you will lose the ball. So embrace that and give up on possession football: the game is won on the scoreboard, not the possession bar.

A great comment. Mourinho's Chelsea were a great example - even though he said 'I've never seen a game where Chelsea don't have the majority of the ball' (which is likely true) I don't think it was ever a key indicator of how successfully his team had played.

It's particularly useful for this formation. The 41221 (particularly a 433 version) is so terrifically effective on the counter or when playing direct that deliberately setting out to keep the ball all the time often negates this massive strength. Barcelona negate this with their slow build up but they switch tempo so quickly that you could easily edit their highlights to make them look like a fairly direct team with runs into gaps and pinpoint long passes and through balls.

I don't worry too much about footedness, as I found having inverted wingers over rated: good players score goals, bad players don't, regardless of which side you put them on.

I've also found this. Particularly if your widemen have good technique.

I know the guy I'm playing as a complete forward isn't really "complete", but don't get hung up on the name of the role, the idea for me is just to get him sitting back a bit to get the front line more of a 3 while still having a guy who will look to get forward and score for himself and not just play others in. I find the complete forward support role sets a player up to do that best of the predefined roles (I don't really like to tweak the sliders too much as that renders shouts ineffective).

Again, I agree. As I mentioned earlier James Vaughan and Ched Evans did a decent enough job as CF's even though they are far from technically capable of playing a 'complete' role.

My current guy is far more of a complete forward but in the Henry mould rather than Rooney. Still, he drops deep very regularly and allows the IF's to push forward and I'm attacking with a 41212 shape which is fine, it's using the space and its using the intelligence of the players. I don't want him doing it all the time but he's free to do so when he decides to, the CF role helps this.

[Cleon]

I'd have to say the Attack role will produce more goals as he'll be more attacking and play slightly higher. Probably doesn't make much difference though. Getting a striker to score goals is about picking the right guy and picking a style of play that suits that guy.

That's not always a good thing though. He could be marked out of the game if he's playing higher up and generally more attacking in his play. He could becomeless involved and isolated.I prefer the support option for goals if the players around him are set up properly. As he'll drop deeper and be harder to mark and create space and play for others. This means that is he has the required attributes after playing someone else in he'll then look at involving himself in play again and more often than not is in free space to recieve the ball and score again due to losing his marker.

As you quite rightly point out though its the players around him what will decide who scores the goals. Just be very wary that been more aggressive and attacking isn't always a good thing and doesn't guarantee a better return.

[furiousuk]

Yes, and being more attacking might also mean that his tempo is higher so he might rush opportunities or move too early etc etc.

I've never been very successful at setting up a tactic to funnel goals through one guy. I always have a healthy spread and rarely bother the high scorers table too often (unless I've got the 1,2 and 3 spot!)

[Cleon]

Yes, and being more attacking might also mean that his tempo is higher so he might rush opportunities or move too early etc etc.

I've never been very successful at setting up a tactic to funnel goals through one guy. I always have a healthy spread and rarely bother the high scorers table too often (unless I've got the 1,2 and 3 spot!)

Quite simliar to me in most of my games. In the Santos save I have its a different player each season scoring the most goals. Any of my attacking 5 AML,AMR,SC or MC's can score the most goals for my side. It depends on how I set up to take advantage of the teams I am playing. But generally all of them have a lot of goals and all 5 normally finish with over 20 goals each.

For me team play is far more important than an individual.

[mikcheck]

furiousuk do you think this guy can play well as a Complete Forward in a support duty alongside with a Poacher? In my case i play a 4-3-1-2.

[furiousuk]

furiousuk do you think this guy can play well as a Complete Forward in a support duty alongside with a Poacher? In my case i play a 4-3-1-2.

Erm, the guy is an absolute unit who could play anyway and be a massive success! As he's on loan you have guys even better?!? Wa-wa-wee-wa!

For some reason he isn't a very 'busy' player, 8 gls and 9 assists from 42 starts is pretty poor. Does his personality stink? It shouldn't matter given his attributes. He has NO weaknesses. He'll maybe struggle to dribble around someone as he isn't agile or balanced but that's about it. He's an absolute creative genius who is also adept in front of goal. Play him how you want! You deserve no advice when you have a player like that!

[mikcheck]

ha ha ha thanks.

Well he is "Determined". I think the reason of those stats is because Etienne play with a narrow 4-2-3-1 and he always plays as deep MC like a DLP ( stupid manager haha).

As far as why he still on loan, i've always played with only one striker and if i were to use it in that formation, he will certainly be on the bench as i also have 2 pretty good players for the AMC ( TQ) position and that would be a waste so i decided to loan him again. But then i saw your posts about the 4-3-1-2 ( i would love to see you write a thread for this formation!) and decided to try it in the end of this season, so when he returns, he will have a place in the first team with the 4-3-1-2.

[Gee_Simpson]

I'd have to say the Attack role will produce more goals as he'll be more attacking and play slightly higher. Probably doesn't make much difference though. Getting a striker to score goals is about picking the right guy and picking a style of play that suits that guy.

For my 41221 tactics the goals are always fairly well distributed with FC and AMR getting the majority of the goals (purely because they are the best goal-scorers). But AML gets a fair number and the midfielders tend to chip in, even though they aren't really set up to be a goal-scoring threat.

In contrast, I'm developing a 4312 which is firmly placed on getting the FCl (usually a poacher or targetman-attack) to score the majority of the goals - it is certainly set up that both strikers are the only real goal-scoring threats. Whilst the others do, of course, contribute in my last game against Everton all 18 shots came from the FCs. Not something I will always want but it's what I've set up to do - particularly in that game.

In strict terms I'd always consider the vanilla DLF a creator and not a scorer anyway.

That's not always a good thing though. He could be marked out of the game if he's playing higher up and generally more attacking in his play. He could becomeless involved and isolated.I prefer the support option for goals if the players around him are set up properly. As he'll drop deeper and be harder to mark and create space and play for others. This means that is he has the required attributes after playing someone else in he'll then look at involving himself in play again and more often than not is in free space to recieve the ball and score again due to losing his marker.

As you quite rightly point out though its the players around him what will decide who scores the goals. Just be very wary that been more aggressive and attacking isn't always a good thing and doesn't guarantee a better return.

Ok thanks for the feedback guys.

Yeah I have to say, when I tried using my striker (Kevin Gameiro) as a poacher with Pastore behind him as an AP (s) he wasn't scoring many goals at all. It was obviously because he was pushing too high up and being marked out of the game. As PSG, we are usually the favourites so I guess playing a lone striker as a poacher wouldn't be very successful when teams will set up very defensive against us.

I'm very interested in signing Leandro Damiao who is obviously a great striker but again not particularly creative. I want him to score goals but also be involved in build up play but as I said, he isn't a creative player. What I'm trying to say is, I want to be able to use strikers with poacher like attributes but not in the poacher role. Any recommendations for that lone striker role? I use a 4231 (2 DM's) and a 41221.

[furiousuk]

Any recommendations for that lone striker role? I a 4231 (2 DM's) and a 41221.

Does depend largely on the player and how you want others to move around them. Certainly in the 41221 shape the top man can define a heck of a lot about how you play, the same is true of the 4231 but you could have your focus around the AM rather than the FC.

I'd say that as a general rule of thumb strikers in the 41221 shape are asked a hell of a lot and need to be fairly well-rounded. They don't need to be great but they just need to be competent in most areas (barring defensive work) i.e. running the channels, dropping deep, being a goal threat, being an aerial threat (not strictly necessary), playing in others, playing possession, being sensible, being an individual, being a team-player! If they are really deficient in 1 or 2 areas then you could alter your tactics to compensate but it's more difficult to get consistent success. I think I used Owen as an example, a fantastic player in his prime but I don't think he could ever be a regular success in such a formation. I've always favoured a CF role (even if the player isn't 'complete') but there's plenty of success to be had with other roles if you set up a nice balance (particularly the roles of the front 3 - then the mc's).

With the 4231 it's different because there is more immediate support. I've always found that this formation is typified by the interaction between AM & FC. The 2 'main' ways of playing are to push the FC up and the AM back so that it's a finisher/creator combo or to push the AM up and the FC back so that they play more as a front 2. The wingers then play off of that (the mc's/dm's generally always hold). So this means that a poacher-type player with fantastic movement and a great eye for goal but little creative ability can be accomodated far more easily and should see better regular success.

I've always struggled to get a creative AM really ruling the roost but from other posts and threads on here it is certainly very very possible.

[Cleon]

Just to reiterare what furious says about the 4321 here is the version I chose;

That is my winning EPL side the season after winning the Championship. Ben Afra sits deep and sprays passes all over the park. He'd have a lot more assists and goals but he's playing in a way that isn't selfish. He'll spread the ball out wide to the flanks and then they'll cross for the striker to score hence all the key passes.

[JOSEPH!]

Cleon your goal scoring for your team's goal scorer is outstanding. I noticed this with your Swansea side - when you want a player to score, they score. Excellent!

God damn I like that Newcastle side! props!

Edit Just seen Furious points about the 4231. As a 'seasoned' user of the 4231 and a firm believer in all that is good and holy about it the key interaction is between the AM and CF (centre forward). Although this is one of many relationships within that squad, most notably the relationship between DMs/CMs (I actually find this as important of a relationship however the AM/CF is more noticeable on a first glance), it is the most important. I do take pride in my defensive structure and my analysis of the opponents to the point where I know their players as well as they do however the success of the 4231, deep or not, is primarily down to the interaction between the AM and CF. Cleon has clearly got it spot on here and has used it to fantastic effect in the Newcastle squad. The importance of versatility in this relationship though is imperative. Teams will pick up on regular use of one tactic, in my experience, and start to nullify any threat your creative force can have so as Furious has mentioned it is important to vary it up a bit. Ben Arfa clearly brings something to that squad that Cleon's second choice AMC doesn't and vice versa. Not necessarily changing the instructions but changing players (and recognising what specific styles of play your second choice brings) can be enough to disrupt the opponents defensive structure.

Ahhhh it is a facisnating formation!

[furiousuk]

That is my winning EPL side the season after winning the Championship. Ben Afra sits deep and sprays passes all over the park. He'd have a lot more assists and goals but he's playing in a way that isn't selfish. He'll spread the ball out wide to the flanks and then they'll cross for the striker to score hence all the key passes.

Thought you said you always had the goals spread out! 37% for Cisse! Great stuff, although Campbell is damn tidy for a youngster too!

[Cleon]

Thought you said you always had the goals spread out! 37% for Cisse! Great stuff, although Campbell is damn tidy for a youngster too!

They normally are in my long term saves, but I was trying to see how far I could push Ben Afra and Cisse and see if I could make them both play well at the same time. I actually did it to help a user who posted a question in one of threads I did

You'd be shocked if you saw Campbell's attributes, Newcastle hadn't developed him at all when I took overand I've only been in charge 2 seasons now. I took charge start of 2nd season. He's just all pace and acceleration rest of his attributes are like 8, 9, 10 at best

[furiousuk]

You'd be shocked if you saw Campbell's attributes, Newcastle hadn't developed him at all when I took overand I've only been in charge 2 seasons now. I took charge start of 2nd season. He's just all pace and acceleration rest of his attributes are like 8, 9, 10 at best

I checked him out on the Newcastle site (wasn't sure who he was, didn't know if maybe a regen or whatever), he's pretty highly rated by the sound of it. I don't know how FM rates him but he's just won some MVP for a youth tournament and is in pretty prestigious company for previous MVPs.

Shocking that a player (on FM) can thrive just on pace at the top level. Obviously it was all down to the manager

[yonko]

Why did this thread turned from being about the 41221 to being about the 4231 formation?

[Cleon]

Why did this thread turned from being about the 41221 to being about the 4231 formation?

It asn't. If you read furious was talking about the differences and how the 4231 relies heavily on the AMC/SC combo. He was talking about the interaction between the AMC and SC so I showed what he was talking about.

[JOSEPH!]

Why did this thread turned from being about the 41221 to being about the 4231 formation?

A large part of the OP was also down to the relationships between the midfield three. That midfield three could be two DMs and one AM, two CMs and one AM or one DM, CM and AM. Two of these are 4231s. It is a discussion and followed a general path. 4231 is a natural evolution from 451 > 41221 > 4231. All one in the same.

Had a match against Levante recently that I will take a post-match look at and put up here. Unless I looked at it with a bias it was a tactical domination!

In all honesty Madrid v Levante will be a domination but particularly proud of this.

[Gee_Simpson]

Thanks for the help guys

@ Cleon - Yeah, the setup I used was very similar to yours with the same roles for the front 4. My team instructions were mostly the same too but my team were conceding quite a lot and Gameiro was hardly scoring at all. Pastore in the AMC position, who is similar attributes wise to Ben Arfa, wasn't performing either. Obviously I'm not anywhere near the great tactician you are so when it wasn't working I found it harder to see where it was going wrong for my side. I'm in mid season now and I'm using the 41221 to better effect but I really want to make the 4231 work also.

[JOSEPH!]

Thanks for the help guys

@ Cleon - Yeah, the setup I used was very similar to yours with the same roles for the front 4. My team instructions were mostly the same too but my team were conceding quite a lot and Gameiro was hardly scoring at all. Pastore in the AMC position, who is similar attributes wise to Ben Arfa, wasn't performing either. Obviously I'm not anywhere near the great tactician you are so when it wasn't working I found it harder to see where it was going wrong for my side. I'm in mid season now and I'm using the 41221 to better effect but I really want to make the 4231 work also.

Persist with the 4231 Gee. The 41221 is obviously a very effective tactic when used correctly (I struggle to get it spot on) but the 4231 has so many positives. If you're struggling to get the 4231 up and running here are some points I found helped me through experimentation.

- Rigid Structure - I'm currently looking a lot more in depth at this but Mourinho's use of the 4231 typified rigidity. Here is a quote from a La Liga manager I have remembered and took to understanding since managing Madrid:

"Barcelona make you feel worse than Madrid, more inferior. You never touch the ball, you just drop ever deeper and protect yourself. Against Madrid, you feel like you're in the game, you get the ball, you play, you attack … and that is when they score."

This just isn't possible to achieve without rigidity in the FM sense. Take note I am talking specifically about Mourinho's 4231 here and in my eyes the most successful adoption of that formation in Europe. Of course some teams adopted it and had a relatively successful season but the stats tell a different story about Madrid last year. To say they dominated the league is absolutely correct. I remember a 0-0 draw with Valencia where Madrid had something like 33 shots. That is absolutely mental. Possession and passes were lower than Barcelona's over an average but their goal scoring and insatiable attacking doesn't need any reminding really, they were amazing. This might seem off topic but relate the last few lines with the quote and you understand the importance of rigidity.

Mourinho has been described as a defensive manager. Some Madridistas hit out at this but he is, and isn't. He is defensive because at times he had three defensive midfielders. He took to replacing Marcelo with Coentrao more and more and even Lass Diarra managed a look in every now and then. Through the rigidity though he can be this defensive. When you have Ronaldo (60 goals), Benzema (32), Higuain (26) to choose from upfront you can afford to keep 5+ players back. A side with that goal scoring talent and this creativity: Ozil (24 assists), Di Maria (15), Ronaldo (15), Benzema (14), Kaka (12), Alonso and Higuain (10 each) just needs their defensive players to be defensive and their attacking players to be attacking. No frills - just beating the opposition down with blow after blow. Madrid's counter attacking football was as wonderful to watch at times as Barcelona's passing. A widely held belief from the 2011-12 season in Spain was: Against Real Madrid you're at your weakest when you have an attacking corner.

- Unbalance In Attack - This took me the longest to develop but has been up there with the most important aspects of my 4231 (again, I realise I am being very specific here about Mourinho's 4231 and mine in FM but Mourinho played it last year exactly as it was supposed to be played therefore the perfect example). I started off, as you'd expect, with two IFs on the wings. I have always been an admirer of the False 9 & 10 combination and differences from that whereby I can mould an opposition's defence as I please with clever team selection and even more intelligent movement. This was my structure and I stuck with it. It worked for a wee while but it did catch up to me - I was winning but not with the potency I was before. 2-1s were common place as oppose to the 4/5-0s I was experiencing earlier on. I took a good long look at my players and formation and changed it up. Looking at Madrid' stats from last season. I'm discounting Ronaldo's assists because of the quality player he is. Although his season was outstanding you'd expect him to chip in with assists due to the nature of his play and how much space he provides just by running with the ball. Di Maria and Ronaldo occupied the same position on either flank for the most part of the season however their roles were so, so different. Di Maria chipped in with seven goals compared to Ronaldo's 60. Down to player ability yes, but Di Maria had different instructions. 29 assists in 70 appearances since joining - bare in mind the difficulty he has had adjusting to Madrid - more so than any other player in the squad. He has started fights, been sent off against Barcelona amongst other things. His assist record has improved each year and in each competition, he has even been picked ahead of Ozil/Kaka at times.

Translate this to FM. My current set up for my front 5: AMR - Winger, support; AMC - Advanced Playmaker, attack; AML - Inside Forward, attack; CF - Poacher, attack.

As it goes Di Maria has been injured as of late however substitute Labyad into AMR, Ozil into AMC, Ronaldo at AML and Higuain at CF and it works. A drop in mentality for the AMR will always see him in space as opponents FBs sit deep to allow themselves time to react to the wingers. This will eventually push the FB higher up the pitch and, due to being lower in numbers, the rest of the defence would drop deeper to accommodate themselves and give more time therefore providing space... etc... pass... pass... score. Labyad, a £2.9 Million signing under 20 years old, and not a regular in my squad picked up three assists in a 4-0 win. Di Maria would have been devastating. This ties into team selection and knowing your strengths and weaknesses. Labyad can't run at players (yet) nor can he score from outside the box (yet) but he can pick a pass. Give them the best possible environment to strive in. If this means your AMC and AMR dropping deeper to find space so that runs from players like Ronaldo and Higuain are actually useful as they can receive a pass then so be it. The interaction of the front four, and unpredictability, means your opponents are wary of committing to a corner/free kick heavily. They just need to compliment each other (after preaching about rigidity the front four will need to be fluid in their movement - this comes from the different roles they'll have and personal player interaction).

- Defend, defend, defend and defend - For me, the most important part of my team. I take the most pride in my attack but realise they wouldn't have the freedom to do what they do without the structure and ability of my defenders. Mourinho's back four was mostly seen as: Marcelo, Ramos, Pepe, Arbeloa. Varane, Coentrao & Carvalho all got above 10 starts (Coentrao 23). This paired with two DMs in the shape of Alonso and Khedira with a bit of Diarra, Granero and even Pepe chucked in at DM (Pepe going in at DM was seen as an injustice, sh** kicked off big time, Mourinho shut them up).

It is imperative that to allow your forwards freedom you provide them with a solid platform to work from. Marcelo and Ronaldo's play at times was amazing. They linked up so, so well. Ramos on the CB side of Marcelo meant Mourinho had someone with the raw physical power to cover for a marauding wing back. He is an intelligent defender too and with Khedira infront of him he knew he had someone who works so, so hard for the team so can cover Marcelo well. Pepe alongside Arbeloa with Alonso in front is also fantastic. For the more creative Alonso and probably more prone to drifting forward you have a very, very physical centre back who defends and defends hard. Arbeloa will drift forward, does drift forward, but Pepe sitting back can cope. When defending he has a very cohesive unit and, most importantly, a very intelligent unit.

All that transfers to FM very easily and the attributes readily reflect that. Arbeloa is probably more suited to a defensive WB in FM than in real life but that is easy to accommodate. My point is that you need to see the defence as a unit. If one goes missing, how can the other accommodate that? Its ok to have a Marcelo if you have a Ramos/Khedira next to him. Its ok to have an Alonso if you have a CB that just stamps on people right behind him. The cohesion of a defence in a 4231 will determine its success. Mourinho is described as defensive because he is. His defensive unit allows players like Ronaldo to score 60 goals a season. It is of course down to the creativity of people like Ozil and Di Maria but it is first and foremost the defence.

I rambled a wee bit here and not sure I got my points across for you Gee but hopefully you can gleam something from this. As always guys please criticise, debate, ask or whatever you want

[vasilli07]

Thanks for the help guys

@ Cleon - Yeah, the setup I used was very similar to yours with the same roles for the front 4. My team instructions were mostly the same too but my team were conceding quite a lot and Gameiro was hardly scoring at all. Pastore in the AMC position, who is similar attributes wise to Ben Arfa, wasn't performing either. Obviously I'm not anywhere near the great tactician you are so when it wasn't working I found it harder to see where it was going wrong for my side. I'm in mid season now and I'm using the 41221 to better effect but I really want to make the 4231 work also.

I'm using a 4231 deep as Spurs. This is how I set up my front 4. You may want to try it.

AML - Bale - Winger(att)

AMC - Modric - Adv player(att) - wide play changed to move into channels

AMR - Willian - Winger(att)

SC - Doumbia - Adv forward(att)

Roam from position checked for all 4 players.

Modric has got a double double almost every season.

[Aaust]

Magnificent post Joseph, but I wonder why this thread has become more and more about the 4231 rather than the 41221

[llama3]

Magnificent post Joseph, but I wonder why this thread has become more and more about the 4231 rather than the 41221

it is a natural progression in discussion given the immense similarities - i play with both systems - as they each have their own benefits

[Gee_Simpson]

I agree with JOSEPH! and llama tbh as the two formations are very similar hence me also using both. If furious thinks these posts are off topic though, then of course I'll stick to PM's.

[furiousuk]

No worries from me. Natural progression of discussion - many of the points raised are equally viable for each formation.

The chat will get back to the 41221 shape at some point (possibly when I get time to add to the OP! Nearly there!)

[Gee_Simpson]

@ JOSEPH! - Great post mate

I'm a big fan of the way Barca play and have been for many years now and tbh I dislike Real Madrid and Mourinho IRL lol but I have to say despite that, I respect Mourinho as a manager and I think he has totally transformed Madrid and the way they play. He has shown that you can play a different style from Barca and at the same time be exciting to watch and most importantly, effective. I love the 4231 and how many combinations you can make from it. My favourite team to watch who use the 4231 would have to be Bayern Munich & Germany though. The Bayern vs Real Madrid CL Semi Final was what made me realise that the 4231 is as pleasing on the eye as Barca's system if not more exciting. It was end to end stuff, especially at the Bernabeu.

I like the use of a winger and inside forward on the wings like you mention as it keeps the opponents guessing and switches it up a little. I have never tried a rigid philosophy before but I might give it a go as I was conceding lots last time with a fluid philosophy. I'm a very indecisive person so I'm always changing my mind on how I should setup lol. I first had the idea of basing my style on Barca but now want to play a Bayern/Madrid style so yeah Rigid makes sense. I'll be going for Leandro Damiao in January so I'll have a front 4 of Muniain (AML), Pastore (AMC), Menez (AMR) & Damiao (ST). That front 4 should rip up the French League. Do you have Counter Attack ticked?

I'll definitely try the 4231 again and also use the 41221 as my 2nd tactic. The central 3 in my 41221 has it acting more like a 4231 anyway as the MCR pushes up with the MCL dropping deep and the DM screening the defence. (which makes this post on topic! ).

[grimness]

Great thread!

Unfortunately I don't have much to add but I'd like to point that certain variations of 4-2-3-1 are actually variation of 4-3-3. Cruijff calls it "midfield with point forward".

And from what I get some people aren't that much offtopic even though thread is about "midfield with point backwards".

Here is Cruijff's column with google translate on his views of 4-3-3. I hope everyone will find something interesting. http://tinyurl.com/cju622a

[Aaust]

I have to say I disagree a bit. It's all about the dynamic created in play. From this point of view, having one or two MCs push up into the natural territory of an AMC is something else entirely from actually having an AMC either dropping deep or looking to run past the opposition defence. In this respect the movements of an 433 "with point backwards" should be pretty different from the opposite; especially considering most 4231s have two DMCs actually sitting deep.

4231 and 41221 are of course similar in that both use three midfielders, two wingers and a lone striker. However, the movement of those midfielders, as well as the relationship between the MCs and the central striker is actually radically different. This is something that I find even in FM, where the possibility of creating different AMC-ST combinations makes 4231 a tactically different world .

That's my experience, anyway.

[JOSEPH!]

I have to say I disagree a bit. It's all about the dynamic created in play. From this point of view, having one or two MCs push up into the natural territory of an AMC is something else entirely from actually having an AMC either dropping deep or looking to run past the opposition defence. In this respect the movements of an 433 "with point backwards" should be pretty different from the opposite; especially considering most 4231s have two DMCs actually sitting deep.

4231 and 41221 are of course similar in that both use three midfielders, two wingers and a lone striker. However, the movement of those midfielders, as well as the relationship between the MCs and the central striker is actually radically different. This is something that I find even in FM, where the possibility of creating different AMC-ST combinations makes 4231 a tactically different world .

That's my experience, anyway.

I think you've misunderstood. I think we are aware that there are radical tactical differences however we're just saying the natural progression of a discussion will lead from a 41221 to a 4231 - nothing in relation to the tactical premise of both formations which are fundamentally different.

[JOSEPH!]

@ JOSEPH! - Great post mate

I'm a big fan of the way Barca play and have been for many years now and tbh I dislike Real Madrid and Mourinho IRL lol but I have to say despite that, I respect Mourinho as a manager and I think he has totally transformed Madrid and the way they play. He has shown that you can play a different style from Barca and at the same time be exciting to watch and most importantly, effective. I love the 4231 and how many combinations you can make from it. My favourite team to watch who use the 4231 would have to be Bayern Munich & Germany though. The Bayern vs Real Madrid CL Semi Final was what made me realise that the 4231 is as pleasing on the eye as Barca's system if not more exciting. It was end to end stuff, especially at the Bernabeu.

I like the use of a winger and inside forward on the wings like you mention as it keeps the opponents guessing and switches it up a little. I have never tried a rigid philosophy before but I might give it a go as I was conceding lots last time with a fluid philosophy. I'm a very indecisive person so I'm always changing my mind on how I should setup lol. I first had the idea of basing my style on Barca but now want to play a Bayern/Madrid style so yeah Rigid makes sense. I'll be going for Leandro Damiao in January so I'll have a front 4 of Muniain (AML), Pastore (AMC), Menez (AMR) & Damiao (ST). That front 4 should rip up the French League. Do you have Counter Attack ticked?

I'll definitely try the 4231 again and also use the 41221 as my 2nd tactic. The central 3 in my 41221 has it acting more like a 4231 anyway as the MCR pushes up with the MCL dropping deep and the DM screening the defence. (which makes this post on topic! ).

Can't recommend Damiao enough Gee. Signed him for £14 Million, first season; January, as I felt that my attack needed another dimension. Two goals and an assist in the first game. I have found though that he just doesn't have the work rate/general ability to be as effective without a AMC behind him. This will change due to training and integration in my team.

Haha I completely understand disliking them in real life. I used to a lot as well but he just makes me laugh sometimes. I read a quote recently where Ramos was quite defensive when approached by coaches as to why he wasn't fulfilling his defensive duties and Ramos said: "As the move evolved I needed to mark another player!" - Mourinho walked in and said: "So now you're playing coach are you Sergio?". Made me laugh.

I agree, Germany's use of the 4231 in recent times has been a joy and has made young German footballers the most in vogue type of player at the moment. Interesting you mention about fluid/rigid and the fact you've never tried rigid. I am experimenting with fluid at the moment - it definitely produces a more possession based game. Most recent example was a 60%-40% possession split in my favour with the opponents having two shots (none on target) and me attempting 23. Again the point of the counter attack option is interesting too. Ticking counter attack, as far as I am concerned, commits more men forward when a break is on. The beauty of rigidity in the team is that the attacking players are already forward. That's the key. My AML, AMC, AMR and CF are all there, all the time. If the opposition have anything less than four players back then they get punished - at time's we lack profligacy (is that the right word?) but all in all it means that we are potent in attack as well as defence.

Of course there are disadvantages. We sometimes lack a real, probing threat when we are dominating in a game. It is very much a tactic that relies on attacks from the opposition to really succeed. Of course you can win with this formation when you're heavy favourites but it isn't really in it's element. Rigidity is exactly that, it is rigid. There is no fluid, unexpected movement in attack once all players are settled. You then tend to rely on the creativity and natural ability of individuals which can let you down as there is no complete player. Ronaldo's selfish nature and tendency to shoot from distance disrupts the build up of tactics while the lack of penetration from Di Maria means that if he can't find space he will struggle to beat a player one on one.

There are huge advantages but big disadvantages. Barcelona, despite their fluidity, were actually limited in this respect toward the end of the season. Once all their players were high up the pitch and all their runs from deep had been handled and they were limited in forward movements and had no real penetration or depth in attack. Something I never thought I would see happen!

It is all about finding what works for you and most importantly having a plan to fall back on when it isn't working.

[yonko]

It asn't. If you read furious was talking about the differences and how the 4231 relies heavily on the AMC/SC combo. He was talking about the interaction between the AMC and SC so I showed what he was talking about.

Exactly, thus turning this into a discussion about the 4231 and encouraging others to chime in with more comments about their 4231s.

A large part of the OP was also down to the relationships between the midfield three. That midfield three could be two DMs and one AM, two CMs and one AM or one DM, CM and AM. Two of these are 4231s. It is a discussion and followed a general path. 4231 is a natural evolution from 451 > 41221 > 4231. All one in the same.

Had a match against Levante recently that I will take a post-match look at and put up here. Unless I looked at it with a bias it was a tactical domination!

In all honesty Madrid v Levante will be a domination but particularly proud of this.

Yeah, but the midfield 3 in a 41221 is DM+2MCs. I know that the 4231 is a progression of the 41221 - it's just a matter of reversing the midfield triangle. But the title of the thread/topic is 41221, not 4231.

If discussion is to continue regarding both formations and their various variations then at least change the name of the thread. I was excited to see a thread started about the 41221 as that is my favorite and what I use the most. But I'm not thrilled about it turning into a discussion about the 4231 as there are plenty of discussions about it elsewhere already.

OK, I get it, perhaps most FM gamers use 4231 but that doesn't mean discussion should shift in this thread.

[yonko]

No worries from me. Natural progression of discussion - many of the points raised are equally viable for each formation.

The chat will get back to the 41221 shape at some point (possibly when I get time to add to the OP! Nearly there!)

I respect that you are OK with it, but for me it is not a natural progression of discussion. It's distracting and discouranging for someone like me who wants to read and post about the 41221, but have to scroll through posts about the 4231.

The moment someone posted something like " I wish there was a thread like this about the 4231" on the first page, I knew where this was heading......

[R0ca]

I respect that you are OK with it, but for me it is not a natural progression of discussion. It's distracting and discouranging for someone like me who wants to read and post about the 41221, but have to scroll through posts about the 4231.

The moment someone posted something like " I wish there was a thread like this about the 4231" on the first page, I knew where this was heading......

Ease up mate

Just post your thoughts on the 4-1-2-2-1 I'm sure they will spark discussion and bring the thread back on point .

For me personally I find it useful to split mentalities between the front 3, It's good to have an out ball i find.

So for instance on my madrid save i'd set up a front 3 primarily like this :-

AP S - DLP A - IF A

It has the perfect balance of creation and out and out goal scoring threat imo.

[furiousuk]

So for instance on my madrid save i'd set up a front 3 primarily like this :-

AP S - DLP A - IF A

It has the perfect balance of creation and out and out goal scoring threat imo.

I've done the same as well at times.

I often like to set the wideplay of the AP to 'cuts inside' (don't think this is default) to make sure he tucks in behind the striker a little as well. Helps to create a nice channel for the overlapping FB too so that there's a definite wide threat one side.

I'll often also focus play down that side and fiddle with the midfield so that they are similarly lopsided.

It's a little more complex than a general setup for me but is an exciting way to play that, as you say, creates nice variation in your attack.

[Gee_Simpson]

I respect that you are OK with it, but for me it is not a natural progression of discussion. It's distracting and discouranging for someone like me who wants to read and post about the 41221, but have to scroll through posts about the 4231.

The moment someone posted something like " I wish there was a thread like this about the 4231" on the first page, I knew where this was heading......

No need throw your toys out the pram mate.

[yonko]

Ease up mate

Just post your thoughts on the 4-1-2-2-1 I'm sure they will spark discussion and bring the thread back on point .

For me personally I find it useful to split mentalities between the front 3, It's good to have an out ball i find.

So for instance on my madrid save i'd set up a front 3 primarily like this :-

AP S - DLP A - IF A

It has the perfect balance of creation and out and out goal scoring threat imo.

I did post my thoughts when the discussion was about the 41221. They are on the first page. I've got nothing to share when the discussion changed to 4231 as I don't use it. I've tried but I always go back to my beloved 41221.

Regarding the front three, I've primarily used IF(A) - T(A) - IF(A). But sometimes instead of Trequartista, I've used CF (S). I play with Barcelona, btw.

No need throw your toys out the pram mate.

Sorry, I don't understand Scottish jokes.....

[R0ca]

I've done the same as well at times.

I often like to set the wideplay of the AP to 'cuts inside' (don't think this is default) to make sure he tucks in behind the striker a little as well. Helps to create a nice channel for the overlapping FB too so that there's a definite wide threat one side.

I'll often also focus play down that side and fiddle with the midfield so that they are similarly lopsided.

It's a little more complex than a general setup for me but is an exciting way to play that, as you say, creates nice variation in your attack.

AP is set to cut inside by default but yea seems we're thinking along the same lines

What I'm also tending to do is having the AP say on the left handside backed up by a DLP in Defend for example, where as on the other side I'll have the IF Attack backed up my a AP in support.

The thinking was to stop my players getting isolated whilst trying to maintain some fluidity down the spine of the team. If you then have all that backed up by say a DM in defend you have one nicely balanced team.

Then Add M'villa, Moutinho and Ganso and you have a really well balanced midfield which not only has great mentality splits but also players who are being allowed to play to there strengths.

This is why we play the game though isn't it?

[Gee_Simpson]

Sorry, I don't understand Scottish jokes.....

It means there is no need to go in a huff about it.

[Gee_Simpson]

Even though furious said it's ok to post about the 4231 in here, I'll stick to PM's in future as I can see it's getting to a few people.

[Aaust]

I think you've misunderstood. I think we are aware that there are radical tactical differences however we're just saying the natural progression of a discussion will lead from a 41221 to a 4231 - nothing in relation to the tactical premise of both formations which are fundamentally different.

No, no.

the two formations are very similar hence me also using both.

it is a natural progression in discussion given the immense similarities

I wasn't commenting on the progress of the discussion, which, while I find it odd, is ok by me. I just disagree that 41221 and 4231 are necessarily two very similar formations, for exactly the reasons that I mentioned.

I know that the 4231 is a progression of the 41221 - it's just a matter of reversing the midfield triangle. But the title of the thread/topic is 41221, not 4231.

In fact, I'm not entirely sure if this is the case at all. For me the 4231 is much more a progression of 442. Reversing the midfield triangle of a 433/41221 is, in my opinion, a much more radical shift than dropping one of the forwards of a 442 slightly back and pushing its wingers somewhat higher up. I also think its similarity to the 442 - the formerly predominant formation - is one of the reasons for the current popularity of 4231.

[llama3]

there are plenty of similarities - especially given that 4-2-3-1 can come with some 4 different variants. they can play in similar styles too. In fact with my Arsenal side i simply switch between 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-2-2-1 depending on where best opens up the space for me, and play in a near identical style. There are several components and aspects of play which are similar so, yes, it is a natural progression, even if it is not identical - there are common aspects between them.

[JOSEPH!]

Think we all need to ease up! No need to get personal really. Instead of pointing out any gripes you may have perhaps make a point about the 41221, start a conversation instead of just following on from one.

Post a few screen shots, give in game examples, talk about your experiences etc etc

[furiousuk]

So, to bring things back to the 41221 shape I've been digging around looking for something else in my screenies folder and found an old example of a classic 41221 goal:

1: So in this example Bangoura is the FC, 9 & 19 are AMR and AML whilst Shelvey is in at MCr. The opposition (maybe Celtic, who knows?) have a flat back 4 of 4,6,2,3 and their 19 is probably the DM who has tracked the run of 19 (my 19 moves in field and then back out before advancing as 10 dropped - this is classic of lots of CF and free roles matched with player attributes matched with a patient buildup).

The build-up had been slow but with their DM out of the my midfield could now over-run the opposition midfield. As soon as the ball went back to my DM and the opposition MCl pressed him (thusly leaving Shelvey) then the ball was played to Shelvey who could advance on goal largely unmarked. 6 comes to engage him.

Whilst the DCl stepping out of the line is a great outcome for my team if my FC had stayed high then actually Celtic wouldn't of been in too much trouble (not immediately anyway) because they are so narrow. The blue line denotes the horrendous dogleg that has been created and which will eventually become their downfall.

FC has the Complete Forward - Attack instructions and he has no movement PPMs but my guy is smart. He makes use of his free role and creative freedom, drops off into the gap and drags a further defender with him, although this defender is not moving quick enough to stop whats unfolding.

2: Bangoura drops deep into the hole, both IF's are looking to move beyond him and because there are now 2 defenders pulled out of line there are diagonal passing lanes all over. The easiest pass (which still involves some ability to pull off) is to drop the left shoulder and one-touch pass it through to the onrushing AMR.

3: My AMR has pace and acceleration (although very little anticipation but he does this all the time - gets caught offside all the time too so I guess it balances, kind-of) and the pass is perfect, there should be only one outcome here (which I think there was).

Things to note:

* My FC is primary a strike-player, think Henry. But because he has balance he is able to create a goal like this.

* The free role on my FC allow him to drop deep despite an Attack duty. He does this regularly and I normally agree with the decision.

* The final shape shows how I have 2 players supporting the attacking trio and not 1 that you would see in a 4231. We've chatted a little about the change in midfield shape but this is a key indicator of where this formation can be more attacking (in terms of numbers anyway) despite setting up deeper numerically.

* The opposition have 8 players back and they have still been undone by basically 3 players (more were involved in the build-up, which is crucial). I'm starting to doubt that I've but the blue line on the back 4 because of the disarray in the final shot - I'll try and find the game and see if I can upload a highlight.

* In all of the shots the Celtic DL is actually facing AWAY from the goal-scorer. Silly boy.

* This goal classically uses the Danger Zone between DC's and MC's. In this case it is utilized initially by Shelvey advancing, but the key bit is the FC dropping deeper.

* My AMR is a blunt (but effective) instrument. He makes this type of run all day. To balance I try to pick a more rounded and more intelligent player on the left. They often have the same instructions but the difference in play is evident (particularly when you use lots of CF). If 19 is indeed a DM who has picked him up then it's a testament to his movement and directly led to the space Shelvey moved into - I've seen this happen plenty when the opposition are tight marking you and the DM wants to pick up a man because he has no natural player to mark.

[JOSEPH!]

A good, effective move - they clearly have some instructions to close Bangoura down. If I remember from your posts about the team he is a bit of a beast, no? Some fantastic stats.

I think the key, as you have mentioned, is that the midfield are over run. Shelveys movement forward forced the dog-leg shape. Ridiculous closing down really from Celtic. I appreciate Celtic's 8 had your 7 in the third screenshot but 7 is a late arrival and the damage is done by the time they are in the picture. Celtic's 8 could have done with watching Shelvey.

I really struggle getting 41221s to work in my games. Something I'm clearly missing - need to experiment.

[Aaust]

In my current save my main formation is a 4312, that has been very successful, but I do have a 41221 that I use when I come up against certain sides, especially those employing 3 at the back, or the very deep 4222.

I do tinker around a bit, particularly with the midfield, but in my latest game (vs. 4222) the setup of my front 6 looked like this:

dmc: DLPs

mcr: BWMs

mcl: DLPs

amr: IFa

aml: IFa

fc: TMs

My 41221 generally works well when morale is high and everything else is going well. However, when we are struggling a litte I hesitate to use the formation. Defensively we are very vulnerable down the flanks. Without really having done the math I'd say that about 8/10 of my goals conceded comes from crosses into the box. I also find us very one-dimensional in attack.

Two regular scenarios (not just with the above setup, or against the 4222, but with the 41221 in general):

1/ My amr og aml comes running down the wing with the ball, dribbles past the full back and cuts inside. Once inside the area, however, he is crowded out by the opposition defence, stops, turns and passes the ball back to his own full back, who crosses - and the ball is headed out.

2/ My central striker receives the ball in the space in front of the opposition center backs. He plays through one of the inside forwards, but the angle is too narrow and the onrushing wide player can't get his shot on target.

Apart from that I do see some long shots, but all in all my attacking play seems stale and not very creative. My midfielders are (most of them) both intelligent and technically proficient, so I can't understand how they could be the problem.

All in all, I struggle, and I find it a bit of a mystery. So if anyone here have got comments or suggestions it would be highly appreciated!

[JOSEPH!]

My next game is against Rayo (interestingly, highest interceptions per game than any other team in top European leagues), 20th in La Liga so no real threat but did my scouting anyway. Had a game against Barcelona that I always use as a reference point for how teams like Rayo will play against me. Checked their players, formations etc and analysis of their passing was interesting.

Never seen a team play so narrow. Understandably deep but they just gave Barcelona the flanks and nothing else. Their average positions were obviously consistent with this - however a surprisingly spread out back four. I'd expect them to be as compact as possible. They took the idea of the flanks carrying the least attacking direct threat to goal so just said "take the flanks Barcelona, we don't mind". They put up a decent fight actually and scored twice, it was a 5-2 win for Barcelona.

Not a bad way of countering a fluid 41221.

[furiousuk]

A good, effective move - they clearly have some instructions to close Bangoura down. If I remember from your posts about the team he is a bit of a beast, no? Some fantastic stats.

I think the key, as you have mentioned, is that the midfield are over run. Shelveys movement forward forced the dog-leg shape. Ridiculous closing down really from Celtic. I appreciate Celtic's 8 had your 7 in the third screenshot but 7 is a late arrival and the damage is done by the time they are in the picture. Celtic's 8 could have done with watching Shelvey.

I really struggle getting 41221s to work in my games. Something I'm clearly missing - need to experiment.

Yes there was much that was lacking about the Celtic defence, loads of mistakes all over it but, nevertheless, a nice example of a primary route that the 41221 can attack through. Bangoura is a unit who has no natural weaknesses but I think that is why my system is continuing to tick in different situations. I used a guy with far more flaws in the past and he was absolutely excellent for about a season and a half, or until teams started to change their setup against me. Bangoura can cope with it all and at 20 he'll only improve. The formation naturally relies heavily on the abilities of the FC and as this is an advanced position he gets little allowances afforded by depth or numerical advantage - he has to be able to beat one or two defenders reliably somehow, if he can't then you're always going to struggle.

I'm going to add another post to the OP that illustrates some more of the movement that is typical of this shape and what goes into making it happen, time is just a little short at the moment but it's coming!

My 41221 generally works well when morale is high and everything else is going well. However, when we are struggling a litte I hesitate to use the formation. Defensively we are very vulnerable down the flanks. Without really having done the math I'd say that about 8/10 of my goals conceded comes from crosses into the box. I also find us very one-dimensional in attack.

This is an inherent weakness in the formation - every formation has a weakness and this is the main one for the 41221. There is, however, an inherent quality of the shape that helps to compensate for this weakness.

In order to combat a wide threat the simplest way is to get guys in the middle who are better in the air than the attackers. This isn't rocket science. But, normally big lumps who are good in the air are not-so-great at combatting the threat in behind or dealing with quick, livewire strikers (think Terry or Michael Dawson). However, the 41221 places 3 guys between the lines and, crucially, uses a DM so an inherent quality that this shape enjoys is depth.

What do big lumps hate?

Space in behind.

How do you limit space in behind?

Play deeper!

And, just like that, everybody is happy.

It really is that simple. The defensive ability of this shape relies in dominating the 'Danger Zone' and it does this by placing 5 players in this area (DC, DC, DM, MC, MC). This block of 5 players must control the ball, either when attackers enter the space or aerially, in order for whatever defensive system you like to employ to be successful.

My method for controlling this space has been to use physical players with good mental stats. I then mix this with tight man-marking instructions for the core of 5 players and allow the 'outside' 5 players to be on loose zonal. FM does not simulate a man-marking system in the way many people think of a real-life man-marking system (unless you specifically mark players) - in FM using the man marking (very generally) just means that your guys will pick up targets 'sooner' when they come into the players general defending vicinity. In lay-mans terms they'll get pulled out of position by good movement easier but will allow the opposition less space (this is in conjunction with closing down which augments or diminishes the timing of the instruction).

To be honest, my FM save is so jam packed full of defenders who are both big and quick that they can cover aerial threats and threats in behind equally well but that's beside the point

[R0ca]

Also bare in mind if you are really being exposed down the flanks you can put your IF to tight man mark the oppositions fullbacks.

How well they actually do it will depend on there attributes Primarily teamwork, work rate, determination.

Doing this will of course leave your FC isolated however so i'd recommend giving him HUB to somewhat limit this.