IGN member speak the truth about Football manager

[Ranquelme]

I do feel it gets easier as you go through the seasons. Once you reach the top, you can pretty much sustain it.

AI squads at times are laughable, I've seen highly rated players join teams and then barely play as they don't fit in with the formation.

However. I do enjoy the game, I can get quite into the game but I do wish it was harder to dominate. I also feel its easier in the top leagues to keep hold of your stars, maintain a healthy bank balance. I usually end up with so much money but nothing to do with it as I can keep my players without any fuss.

[soccer.joel]

The ai needs to be improved but the game is fun and enjoyable and his examples were exagerations

[Viggo Vickers]

Problem with reviews like those posted above, is they are hard to take serious unless their a balanced argument of positives and negatives. Those 'reviews' are no more than users posting their grievances with the games.

[Matt_no_7]

I agree with the review but i find that with most games i soon find a way to adapt and beat it every time. With one of my FM12 games i've resorted to trying my best to make things harder for me but when i have to try and beat myself to make the game more challenging then you can safely say it's time for something to change. Once you hit a certain point then you can't really do anything wrong... However the whole striker thing i don't agree with. Messi and Ronaldo (both in the 50's to 60's) say it all really but while were on that subject, they never really reach the same heights in terms of goals per season in the game as they do in real life which is annoying, i've never managed either of them but it seems the only way i'll ever see either of them reach to sort of tally they get in real life is if i was their manager.

[mantralux]

The biggest problem is that any criticism seems to be ignored by SI like it's some sort of whiny minority.

I, and many others, have said this a million times; if SI one year focused all their energy on cleaning up the legacy code, fixing bugs, fixing flaws and balancing the AI without adding any new fluff features, I'm 100% convinced the game would sell more than just a traditional yearly iteration, regardless of what marketing experts at SEGA says.

The review at the top has at least one good point: there is no competition to push SI to create a superior product, because there is nothing to be superior against. Someone brought up FIFA Manager, but I wouldn't even put that game in the same category as FM. SI only competes against itself and the previous release, and as long as a new release has more features it automatically becomes superior.

For every new version released it makes less sense to keep building and adding things on top of legacy code stretching many years into the past. I wish there was courage from SI and trust from SEGA to completely re-write FM from scratch and aim to create a product so flawless that even IF there was competition it would take them years to catch up.

The argument against would be that SI couldn't afford skipping a year, but releasing a database update in September for £10 could cover a lot of costs, and when the re-written product is done, it would sell more than the old one anyways.

I do enjoy playing FM, but it is frustrating when the game still (after 15 years) has AI issues. I would trade almost every new feature in the last five years for a good AI that can keep me entertained and challenged in a 30 year career save.

What is the reason for not improving the AI? Do SI think the AI is good as it is? Are they not capable of improving it? Is there not enough money to budget improving the AI?

[Sussex Hammer]

What is funny with FM is that it seems to be in a reverse parallel universe with real life management. 20 years ago IRL Managers did everything from buy players to sort out contracts to taking the training. These days they have other people running the training, agents and advisors sorting out contracts and I would be surprised if even Fergie has the same responsibility he used to. Whereas in FM world back at the start you bought players, picked a team and off you went, now it's all down to the Manager from allocating staff in training, sorting out contracts yourself and it's gone haywire with all the gimmicks. Personally I agree with the above, I would happily take the game of 4 or 5 years ago but with a top class ME and AI.

[Soccer]

I think the game is fine the way it is. Given the amount of work that goes into making the product, perhaps it is unrealistic to want all of the sun, moon, stars and planets.

[Roy Race 9]

There are issues but this is the best game out there by miles(pardon the pun)

a few things I consider addressing do not get a mention by OP ....so things bug some users more than others

perhaps there should be an easy/moderate/hard option

[milnerpoint]

I'm 100% convinced the game would sell more than just a traditional yearly iteration, regardless of what marketing experts at SEGA says.

Based on what?

[RBKalle]

The review is harsh but sometimes it's better to get an in-your-face opinion, albeit brash and not entirely fair, than keeping on getting verbal fellatio from adoring fans who are so loyal to the franchise they'd gladly pay for anything with the X name/logo on it.

I know SI don't have trillions to spend on the development of the game, but let's be fair here... SEGA aren't a fourth rate developer either... The lacking part here is a mix of will and motivation.

If you hear "oh the product is great" and "best game ever" every single time, you're bound to get lazy especially when there's no competition to keep you on your toes. FIFA Football needed PES to kick their predictable ass for almost a full decade before they were able to come back with a comparable product... But FIFA had been nothing short of "meh" from 99 til the late 00s.

FM is getting like the Simpsons' trashcan. They keep on adding stuff on the top of a structure in deperate need of a fresh start. There's just so much they can do to balance things because the transfers and squad building parts are either too outdated or based on less than great dynamics.

That creates the "overmedication" effect we've seen over the years with AI being too aggressive on the market, then in the following edition it's too conservative. Morale went from constant happiness to schizophrenia etc.

As said by another guy above, they can't tweak/patch the same code forever. At one point they're going to have to rewrite it from scratch, possibly to solve some longterm issues and to go for a more modern gameworld.

The reputation-based system has run its course, for a couple of years already, and the more features they add the more that system shows its age.

In other genres any game still using the basic code of 10-15 years ago would get slaughtered by reviewers and laughed at by customers... Yet FM gets positive reviews and great sales every single year.

Is it because it's really "good as it is" or is it because it's basically a walkover?

P.S. and we all agree FM is still enjoyable (otherwise we wouldn't be here), DESPITE all its unresolved issues. But it's equally fair to say it could and should be so much better.

Nobody expects a 100% realistic simulation, because it'd be impossible and it'd require insane processing power.

All we ask is a competent AI which can give the human player a run for his/her money... I want my rise to European glory to be an actual feat, not just something I know I can do in 5 or 10 years depending on where I start and how good I am.

As things are now all you need to do is waiting for AI clubs to sabotage themselves...

[RBKalle]

Based on what?

That's my guess:

* SEGA could rebrand FM09, sell it as FM2013 and plenty of fans (fanboys, FM-addicts etc) would still buy it and say it's great

* There's still no competition so it's not as if the football management game junkies could switch allegiance during the time there's no new FM

* Imagine the anticipation for the FINALLY NEW Football Manager 201x

The £10 data update would keep the fans playing the existing version while they wait for the revolutionary new game.

The new game would probably attract disgruntled long-time fans, former fans and potentially new fans who'd be curious to see how this new game will be.

The current yearly release plays it safer than safe, but how long can that last? The guys at EA Sports thought they were going to sell the same boring FIFA Football iteration every year, and suddenly they found themselves trailing PES from so far behind because they had been coasting for many years.

[milnerpoint]

That's my guess:

* SEGA could rebrand FM09, sell it as FM2013 and plenty of fans (fanboys, FM-addicts etc) would still buy it and say it's great

* There's still no competition so it's not as if the football management game junkies could switch allegiance during the time there's no new FM

* Imagine the anticipation for the FINALLY NEW Football Manager 201x

The £10 data update would keep the fans playing the existing version while they wait for the revolutionary new game.

The new game would probably attract disgruntled long-time fans, former fans and potentially new fans who'd be curious to see how this new game will be.

The current yearly release plays it safer than safe, but how long can that last? The guys at EA Sports thought they were going to sell the same boring FIFA Football iteration every year, and suddenly they found themselves trailing PES from so far behind because they had been coasting for many years.

Would everyone pay for a data update just to keep SI in business? I would certainly think twice, i only enjoy FM when the real players start to retire, and i know there are quite a lot who play the same way, what benefits would we get from a £10 data update? Its a fallocy to think that SI will make enough from a datapatch to cover the running costs of a studio who's busniess plan revolves around a yearly release. It just wont happen and the likely hood is, with Sega struggling financially, that we would never see another FM game. Your right Sega are not a 4th rate developer, but they are in real financial trouble and FM is one of their best sellers, people need to accept there will not be a missed year for a long time.

[oi_oi_ginger_roy]

You don't see oldschool 4-3-3s with one striker flanked by two second strikers in real life anymore

[RBKalle]

Would everyone pay for a data update just to keep SI in business?

Haven't we been doing that already?

Seriously though, I know it's not that easy and it won't likely happen because in the end a glorified patch+data update still sells plenty of copies so they see no benefit in skipping a year.

However they could (should?) have had a plan B, say starting to develop a brand new code while still churning out the yearly "old and improved" iteration to keep the studios going.

It would have taken several years, basically working on almost two projects, but frankly they can't keep on tweaking and retweaking the same stuff year after year.

It's been 4 iteration based on the 3D match engine, which is, to this day, the latest game-changing [albeit mostly cosmetic] innovation. The core of the game is how old now?

So while I totally understand why SEGA/SI aren't willing/able to "waste" one year for a greater good, I still maintain they'll have to do something sooner or later... and sooner will be better, as they can still operate on what is almost a monopoly. Still better than having to rush things not to get buried by Random Games "Manager of Football 2015", don't you think?

[milnerpoint]

Haven't we been doing that already?

Seriously though, I know it's not that easy and it won't likely happen because in the end a glorified patch+data update still sells plenty of copies so they see no benefit in skipping a year.

However they could (should?) have had a plan B, say starting to develop a brand new code while still churning out the yearly "old and improved" iteration to keep the studios going.

It would have taken several years, basically working on almost two projects, but frankly they can't keep on tweaking and retweaking the same stuff year after year.

It's been 4 iteration based on the 3D match engine, which is, to this day, the latest game-changing [albeit mostly cosmetic] innovation. The core of the game is how old now?

So while I totally understand why SEGA/SI aren't willing/able to "waste" one year for a greater good, I still maintain they'll have to do something sooner or later... and sooner will be better, as they can still operate on what is almost a monopoly. Still better than having to rush things not to get buried by Random Games "Manager of Football 2015", don't you think?

Hahaha touche!!

Seriously tho, do you know that they are not working on a new code? Or is it an assumption? We know for certain they are working on a new ME, that may provide a huge amount of difference to the game play. It is possible they are also working on other major changes, but are not ready to announce anything about them. I would disagree on the 3D being the last game changing innovation, the add/remove leagues (although doesnt work spot on yet) is a huge change, especially for myself, i like playing one save through a version of FM, having the ability to add and change which leagues are avaliable has added 50 seasons onto my game.

Like everyone else i want a perfect FM, or at least as close as is possible with a piece of software, but i understand the business side of things, people moan that SI have stopped doing exactly what their customers want, but the truth is, they make a game for us to buy, nothing more, SI do not owe us anything for our years of playing their game, they make a game, we decide if we want to buy it or not, nothing more. SI are not our friends, they just make the game we enjoy playing.

[Menion]

Hahaha touche!!

Seriously tho, do you know that they are not working on a new code? Or is it an assumption? We know for certain they are working on a new ME, that may provide a huge amount of difference to the game play. It is possible they are also working on other major changes, but are not ready to announce anything about them. I would disagree on the 3D being the last game changing innovation, the add/remove leagues (although doesnt work spot on yet) is a huge change, especially for myself, i like playing one save through a version of FM, having the ability to add and change which leagues are avaliable has added 50 seasons onto my game.

Like everyone else i want a perfect FM, or at least as close as is possible with a piece of software, but i understand the business side of things, people moan that SI have stopped doing exactly what their customers want, but the truth is, they make a game for us to buy, nothing more, SI do not owe us anything for our years of playing their game, they make a game, we decide if we want to buy it or not, nothing more. SI are not our friends, they just make the game we enjoy playing.

They already had an add/remove leagues (you could select as view only at start and switch between them) in the CM games. Removing and then re-adding a part of the game is hardly innovation.

FM does have flaws but I still enjoy it. That's the main part, the game is still enjoyable. Like has alreayd been said, if SEGA are in trouble financially, do we want to potentially break SI just to have a more well rounded game? I would rather have a slightly broken game than still be playing the same game for the next 10 years!

[steve_r]

Everyone is entitled to their own opions, but at the end of the day my opinions is all that matters. And I decree that FM is ace. End of story.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

..It's the AI's tactics!

[sjm]

Some of the points in the first review are valid - the AI's squad building isn't that great and AI managers do sign too many players for no reason (i.e. who never play). It's still by far the best football management game out there though.

Second review is laughable - there's no scripting or AI cheating - if you believe that you'll believe anything (btw I just saw Elvis).

We also all know that each year FM is an evolution not a revolution - has been ever since the Eidos split and the rebranding. It's your choice as to whether you want to buy the game each year or wait a few iterations until it's really changed. I played FM 2006 for about five years before buying 2011 (which I'm still playing). There's quite a lot of changes between 2006 and 2011. I might not like them all, but I appreciate that there's been a lot of effort put into it. If you buy the game each year expecting it to be radically different from the previous iteration, you're obviously going to be disappointed. You don't need to be Nostradamus to know that.

I feel absoultely no urge to go out and buy FM2012, I probably won't buy a new version until 2014/2015. You really can't complain about SI/Sega's business model and then hand over your cash each year when you know full well how it works.

Some other points are also quite clearly not true - the match engine is nothing like the one in CM 1, 2 and 3. I mean, sure there's probably been code reused et al, but even the difference between CM4 - the first version with a 2D match - and the latest versions is immense. In CM4, players weren't even able to take a throw in properly... You might not notice the gradual changes if you play every version. You don't really notice that a kid is growing when you see him every day, but when that kid meets his long-lost Aunt, it's "my, look how you've grown!" It's the same with FM. The changes between successive versions are not massive, and a lot is under the surface anyway, but wait a few versions and you might find you're pleasantly surprised at the amount of changes. And mostly the changes are for the better. I still want arrows back though

[edgar555]

'IGN member speaks the truth about Fm'

Yeah sure from a certain point of view.

A couple of points are relevant and valid. But so much of it is only relevant to certain players, as these forums prove there are plenty of people who find the game a massive challenge.

As for that second review, thats laughable.

[milnerpoint]

Some of the points in the first review are valid - the AI's squad building isn't that great and AI managers do sign too many players for no reason (i.e. who never play). It's still by far the best football management game out there though.

Second review is laughable - there's no scripting or AI cheating - if you believe that you'll believe anything (btw I just saw Elvis).

We also all know that each year FM is an evolution not a revolution - has been ever since the Eidos split and the rebranding. It's your choice as to whether you want to buy the game each year or wait a few iterations until it's really changed. I played FM 2006 for about five years before buying 2011 (which I'm still playing). There's quite a lot of changes between 2006 and 2011. I might not like them all, but I appreciate that there's been a lot of effort put into it. If you buy the game each year expecting it to be radically different from the previous iteration, you're obviously going to be disappointed. You don't need to be Nostradamus to know that.

I feel absoultely no urge to go out and buy FM2012, I probably won't buy a new version until 2014/2015. You really can't complain about SI/Sega's business model and then hand over your cash each year when you know full well how it works.

Some other points are also quite clearly not true - the match engine is nothing like the one in CM 1, 2 and 3. I mean, sure there's probably been code reused et al, but even the difference between CM4 - the first version with a 2D match - and the latest versions is immense. In CM4, players weren't even able to take a throw in properly... You might not notice the gradual changes if you play every version. You don't really notice that a kid is growing when you see him every day, but when that kid meets his long-lost Aunt, it's "my, look how you've grown!" It's the same with FM. The changes between successive versions are not massive, and a lot is under the surface anyway, but wait a few versions and you might find you're pleasantly surprised at the amount of changes. And mostly the changes are for the better. I still want arrows back though

That sir, is a very good post.

[markyosullivan]

"Every single user overachieves with relative ease and

there's no sense of accomplishment when you rack up the accolades."

That alone proves he's talking bull, obviously hasn't read these forums too much

You can make FM a lot easier for yourself by using a established clubs like Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, R. Madrid etc. When you start off with a team with really terrible players, you have to completely rebuild the squad and that can sometimes take years to fully accomplish, during these years of rebuilding bigger clubs usually end up declaring their interest in your best players, these players get unhappy and either leave when their contract expires or you sell them on causing you to have to replace them, which then increases the length of time taken to fully rebuild the squad.

[bearsy2]

FM is like WWE. No competition and the desire to push on erodes over time. Back when WWE were at their most popular, they had WCW pushing them and challenging every week. Now WWE has nobody to offer a vaible alternative. FM and SIgames is the same. How many of you prefer WWE now to then?

There are serious issues with FM that never improve or get fixed.

The match engine is tedious to watch and often shows no likeness to real life footie.

The transfer system has been the same for YEARS and lacks any realism or enjoyment. Explain to me why if I have a striker of ok ability who is scoring for fun has nobody interested in him, yet a youth player with potential to be the next whomever has every one chasing him. The game considers potential ability more than form, which cannot happen in real life, so why in the game?

The development of youth players is quite frankly a joke and how I miss the development that you got from players in FMLive.

The constant repeatition of news items often means constant clicking to just get through the day, without actually reading them. Who wants to read the same thing every other game day? Subscsribe to an award and shortlist a player and you can get over 20 messages saying 'Messi is favourite for world player of the year'.

Then we get onto the AI, which is pretty poor. The ability to maintain a competitive squad is poor. Even in my game Rangers and Celtic have fallen towards the bottom of the SPL.

Unfortunately I am at the age where priorities change (it will happen to you all) and buying and having the time to play computer games is not a must do activity. I may miss out FM this year and the next. But I don't really worry... if I come back to it in a year or 5 nothing much will have changed, except maybe I will be able to do something fancier with the editor or maybe tell a player in a conversation the reason he hasn't been picked was because he was 'bloody injured' and not dropped.

[Ackter]

If you think none of those things* you mention there have not been improved over the years then you really must not pay real attention to what's going on.

*except for the news items. FML had the perfect system for dealing with this and it really needs to be implemented into FM.

[av3ry]

"Everyone has taken small teams up the divisions and make them the best "

Thats a lie. I've never been able to do that, I've always got stuck in the BSS/N playoffs....

[bearsy2]

Ok, perhaps in some instances, "never improved" should be replaced by "rarely improved" or "minimal improvement".

[CityAndColour]

Meh, opinions are like you know whats. Everyone has one, most of them stink etc.

I find both the match engine and player interaction bordering on lazy and appalling, but I'm sure many love these features.

Why start a thread claiming an opinion as fact?

[milnerpoint]

Even in my game Rangers and Celtic have fallen towards the bottom of the SPL.

In real life Rangers have fallen to div3

[bearsy2]

In real life Rangers have fallen to div3

Yeah, not through poor squad maintenance. How many times in 20 years have they finished outside the top 2? Twice perhaps, if that.

[Ackter]

Ok, perhaps in some instances, "never improved" should be replaced by "rarely improved" or "minimal improvement".

Again I still completely disagree. The amount of work and change that has actually gone into those features you've singled out is much larger than you're giving credit for.

[billyboyeden]

Amusing thread this. No right or wrong answer and if there is it will never be agreed on in these forums lol The basic thing is that SI's sales increase year on year so they must be doing something right. Both reviews are pretty laughable to be honest, I work with about 5-6 people who love the game and never come on these forums (which I know a lot of people dont because they just want to play the game and enjoy it. They don't even notice 90% of the bugs on this game until I point them out (yeah they love me lol). The same people who complain about the game are still the same people who buy it year in year out.

As me dear old mum would say , you cant have your cake and eat it.

[bearsy2]

Again I still completely disagree. The amount of work and change that has actually gone into those features you've singled out is much larger than you're giving credit for.

The amount of work that goes into something like the transfer system, or the match engine, is not really an issue for the consumer. I don't really care how long it took them to code or develop a feature. What I care about is that is it an accurate, enjoyable representation of the real world. in my opinion the fact a shot can curl in one direction then veer off at almost 80-90 degrees to be wholey unrealistic. The fact that Messi dribbles in the same way as Ronaldo is bizarre. Why can we only instruct the players to make forward runs?

There have been changes, of course there have. But for me there are issues that have been around for a long time that have not recieved the attention they need to. Let me paint the scene... a player comes to me saying that he wants first team football. I agree and say i will sell as soon as I can. I then transfer list the player and offer him to clubs at his value, then a lot less than his value but still no bites. I get the reminder from my Ass. Man saying I promised to sell the guy, yet not my fault nobody wants him. In the end the player gets pissed off as I havent sold him, despite me trying. Its not my fault nobody wanted to buy the guy. The player should be annoyed at the transfer system. Now i am not talking about an Alan Smith who is on 60k a week, but a squad player at a middle of the way club. There generally is a club for every player that wants to play, they just have to keep dropping down the leagues until someone wants him. This is not reprsented in FM at all.

[mantralux]

The same people who complain about the game are still the same people who buy it year in year out.

Because there aren't any options. There is no competition.

And it's not like the game is unplayable. I still enjoy it, but it could be so much better.

[Ackter]

The amount of work that goes into something like the transfer system, or the match engine, is not really an issue for the consumer. I don't really care how long it took them to code or develop a feature. What I care about is that is it an accurate, enjoyable representation of the real world. in my opinion the fact a shot can curl in one direction then veer off at almost 80-90 degrees to be wholey unrealistic. The fact that Messi dribbles in the same way as Ronaldo is bizarre. Why can we only instruct the players to make forward runs?

There have been changes, of course there have. But for me there are issues that have been around for a long time that have not recieved the attention they need to. Let me paint the scene... a player comes to me saying that he wants first team football. I agree and say i will sell as soon as I can. I then transfer list the player and offer him to clubs at his value, then a lot less than his value but still no bites. I get the reminder from my Ass. Man saying I promised to sell the guy, yet not my fault nobody wants him. In the end the player gets pissed off as I havent sold him, despite me trying. Its not my fault nobody wanted to buy the guy. The player should be annoyed at the transfer system. Now i am not talking about an Alan Smith who is on 60k a week, but a squad player at a middle of the way club. There generally is a club for every player that wants to play, they just have to keep dropping down the leagues until someone wants him. This is not reprsented in FM at all.

I won't argue that the issues aren't still there, they clearly are. But I can see the progress that's being made towards them, which a lot of people seem to be blind to. I wouldn't be able to go back to FM10, as an example, just because the step backwards in so many areas, including those you've mentioned, would be glaring to me.

[billyboyeden]

Because there aren't any options. There is no competition.

And it's not like the game is unplayable. I still enjoy it, but it could be so much better.

I understand what you are saying but giving the time constraints and the pressure they are under to meet deadlines, I think it is the best that they can do under the circumstances. Surely no-one believes that would put out an inferior product because they can get away with it?

[bearsy2]

I won't argue that the issues aren't still there, they clearly are. But I can see the progress that's being made towards them, which a lot of people seem to be blind to. I wouldn't be able to go back to FM10, as an example, just because the step backwards in so many areas, including those you've mentioned, would be glaring to me.

Agreed. Perhaps Changes would be more noticeable to me had I not played every iteration. A year or two off may revitalise my passion for the game.

[haunted1234]

since SI has only around 7-8 month time to develop a "new game" for the series, the changes are minimal every year, in order to really make huge step forwards they would need to take a break for at least 2-4 years in order to make a really really good game

if you tweak the AI and such, you need very much time testing it etc. thats just not possible within the short timeframe from season to season if you wanna release a "new game" every year... thats why most "complicated" features are relativly poorly, which is kinda sad, but understandable, because sega needs to make profit with the series, probably cant afford to take a break for 4 years just to make 1 manager series game

same goes for the fifa manger series, just not enough time to add big features and test it till release

[Neil Brock]

People seem to forget that we play the game as well. We want the best possible product that we can produce. To claim "The biggest problem is that any criticism seems to be ignored by SI like it's some sort of whiny minority" isn't only baseless it's downright insulting. We always accept constructive feedback and take it all on board. That's what these forums are for, to give our community the chance to raise their voice.

Anyone who thinks the AI hasn't been worked on over the last few years is mistaken. It's a massive task and even the tiniest tweak can have rather major knock-on effects on the rest of the game. We're aware that the AI as the game advances can let it down somewhat, but that doesn't mean it's being ignored. We have people for specific areas of the game, so if say someone is spending time working on Press Conferences, that doesn't mean time is being taken away from working on the AI. It's different coders and different teams working on different modules.

I love the fact that the 'review' criticises the fact strikers can score 50/60/70 goals a season. You're right, it should be 73 like Messi got this season.

I'm not being serious by the way, we're aware these are extremes in the game, not the norms. Anyway, we'll continue to work on the game and our userbase will continue to find things within the game that they love which others hate. I had a guy telling me today about how he absolutely loved the way you could add your own text to press conferences. Not every aspect of the game is appreciated by everyone. But yes, we're all aware the AI isn't perfect, but in all honesty, even with thousands of coders working on it I'm not sure it ever could be. A couple of years ago we logged a bug where Andy Carroll moved for over £20m. The next summer in real life he moved for £35m. That kind of stuff we just can't compete with. We just strive to make it the best possible game we can.

[achilles-the-victorious]

Its not a question of how long it takes to rewrite the match engine. Its a question of how long does it take to balance the gameplay in the new match engine? I don't think people appreciate how difficult this is.

Still playing FM11, played it over 2000+ hours, manage two teams simultaneously, and still really enjoy player development and the tactical side of the game.

There are AI squads out there that are competitive, but teams seem to ebb and flow, with AC Milan for e.g. being weak (3rd to 10th best in Serie A) for the better part of the last decade in my save, and now are 2nd best in Italy once again. Lazio got taken over by a tycoon a decade ago and had a VERY strong run, but now their squad is aging and they have moved down the pecking order. In Spain Real Madrid had a long rebuilding period, but are one of the top teams in Spain again (finishing w/ 92 points in 2040/41). The thing is, there are now about 7 competitive teams in Spain, Sevilla, Mallorca, Atletico Madrid, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Numancia.

IMO La Liga 2040/41 is A LOT more fun than La Liga 2011-2016, when Messi and Co were absolutely rampant (entertaining, and a challenge to play against, tho) and it was strictly a 2 horse race, year in, year out.

[mantralux]

People seem to forget that we play the game as well. We want the best possible product that we can produce. To claim "The biggest problem is that any criticism seems to be ignored by SI like it's some sort of whiny minority" isn't only baseless it's downright insulting.

I wish it was baseless, but unfortunately not. Prime example: Steam. I don't think I have to quote Miles (because we all know what he said when addressing the issue), but the general attitude was that the people who had problems with Steam were a "vocal minority", and could therefore be ignored as whiners without SI having to deal with the problem. And it's quite insulting to call it insulting, especially since we both know (as you've confirmed to me) that SI don't really take criticism well.

Anyone who thinks the AI hasn't been worked on over the last few years is mistaken.

Don't think anyone believes it hasn't been worked on. But the problem is that it never seems to become balanced. That's why it would be interesting to know why. Is it a matter of not knowing how to solve it? Is it a matter of being content with how it works? Is it a money thing?

We have people for specific areas of the game, so if say someone is spending time working on Press Conferences, that doesn't mean time is being taken away from working on the AI. It's different coders and different teams working on different modules.

Yes, but surely logic suggests that if SI pays wages for a person who codes press conferences, that money could instead be used to hire someone able to code AI functionality. So of course it takes away something when focusing on certain areas.

But yes, we're all aware the AI isn't perfect, but in all honesty, even with thousands of coders working on it I'm not sure it ever could be.

So you're basically saying that the coders working at SI are the best coders in the world, since no amount of coders would be able to do it better? Many games have excellent AI, so maybe the problem is that the people working on the AI at SI aren't good enough to code an intuitive AI? I mean surely you'd agree that it's a possibility among many?

[Neil Brock]

Many games have excellent AI you're right, I very much doubt any have perfect AI as I said, because perfect AI would have to replicate actual human intelligence/emotions etc, which isn't really feasibly possible given the scope of this game and the restrictions in place. And we're not talking about Steam, nobody in this thread even mentioned Steam until you did - that's not really relevant to this conversation about the game itself. And let's be honest, there's not many people who take outright criticism that well, that's why we only ask for constructive criticism. If you think I've said to you in the past that 'SI don't really take criticism well' then you've clearly misunderstood what I've said.

And yes, the coders at SI are the best coders in the world.

[M.U.F.C....TSVR]

The guy has his points but some are harsh. I agree 100% that FM needs competition, CM was flopping last I heard and a solid effort at football management simulation would perhaps get SI's heads outta their cooloo's. Or, maybe, they could do it for us - the people who have kept buying this title for the last 8 years. I like to think I buy it because its the best but if CM was out on PC, (dunno if it is) I'd try it. Simply put, FM is kinda like your new gf - wonderful and exciting in the beggining and then when you get to know her......out the door she goes. I still love it, but if CM reaches a 2013 title, I'll buy that before FM. I'd also like to argue a point he made from the AI side, dominating games n such. I made a possesion tactic, flawless at times. I went 2 seasons without losing and won everything. I did this with Crawley on a long career. I got promoted back to back into the Championship but it took 3 attempts to get in the EPL. Once there, I pluckily survived and eventually made it n won the league - 7 seasons after promotion. I was very happy with that. Dominating after this point was enjoyable too. I dont find it boring winning, or making a small side the best in the world. I truthfully will never ever get bored of doing that. I cant see how you could either!

[pigfacemonkeyman]

You can make FM a lot easier for yourself by using a established clubs like Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, R. Madrid etc. When you start off with a team with really terrible players, you have to completely rebuild the squad and that can sometimes take years to fully accomplish, during these years of rebuilding bigger clubs usually end up declaring their interest in your best players, these players get unhappy and either leave when their contract expires or you sell them on causing you to have to replace them, which then increases the length of time taken to fully rebuild the squad.

Setting a players asking price very high (100 million would do) stops this, which is useful. (but not very realistic)

[milnerpoint]

So you're basically saying that the coders working at SI are the best coders in the world, since no amount of coders would be able to do it better? Many games have excellent AI, so maybe the problem is that the people working on the AI at SI aren't good enough to code an intuitive AI? I mean surely you'd agree that it's a possibility among many?

That wasnt what was said at all, you have twisted that part. He said no amount of coders would make it perfect, which is true for almost every single piece of software around.

[Kriss]

There's no such thing as an intuitive AI, some can be made to appear somewhat intuitive dependant on the scenario but they all have to respond to triggers and it's the variety of responses that defines how intuitive they appear to be.

[ViG1980]

You can make FM a lot easier for yourself by using a established clubs like Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, R. Madrid etc. When you start off with a team with really terrible players, you have to completely rebuild the squad and that can sometimes take years to fully accomplish, during these years of rebuilding bigger clubs usually end up declaring their interest in your best players, these players get unhappy and either leave when their contract expires or you sell them on causing you to have to replace them, which then increases the length of time taken to fully rebuild the squad.

Disagree about the players leaving piece - it's so easy to keep your stars at a smaller club. I have only ever had to sell one player because a bigger club was sniffing about and that is because the chairman stepped in. Even when a player gets unhappy that I turn down an offer, they don't force their way out...they just end up happy again after a couple of months.

[Guest avine]

"I just wish another football management simulation would

come along and put it to shame one day."

this is disgusting, who thinks like this?

[mantralux]

And we're not talking about Steam, nobody in this thread even mentioned Steam until you did - that's not really relevant to this conversation about the game itself.

I know, but you said my claim about SI treating criticism like a whiny minority was baseless, and I was just using the Steam discussion as an example of the claim not being baseless, seeing as "vocal minority" was the exact phrase Miles used to avoid having to deal with criticism (regardless of topic).

And let's be honest, there's not many people who take outright criticism that well, that's why we only ask for constructive criticism.

Yes, but it's easy dismissing some criticism as destructive just because it's uncomfortable to deal with.

Many games have excellent AI you're right, I very much doubt any have perfect AI as I said

You're right, no game has perfect AI. But I don't think that's what people are asking for either. I think they at the very minimum would like to be able to play a long career save without AI controlled teams making outrageous decisions like buying seven strikers when there's only two full-backs in the squad. One would assume such behaviour would have been solved years ago.

Simply hardcoding into the game that every team always aims to have at least two players for every position would solve such behaviour (yes, I know it's not just that simple, but something along those lines).

[Ackter]

Newcastle United have only had one left back for the last 5 seasons now.

[hugo_rune]

"I just wish another football management simulation would

come along and put it to shame one day."

this is disgusting, who thinks like this?

Interesting question

I think if a football management simulation came out that was significantly better than Football Manager, I'd be rapt, because it would represent something new and improved. Not out of any loathing for SI, quite the contrary. But out of the potential personal enjoyment I would get from it.

But to be frank, I don't see it happening. FM is an established brand, experienced, and with significant assets inherent in their code and networks. They're not the only company out there doing football management sims, but they're the one that do it in the most detailed and realistic way, they make it fun and capture some of the drama of real football. That's not something anyone could top overnight and I doubt it will ever be attempted. Good luck to anyone who tries.