Options - Making the game easier or harder.

[RBKalle]

What's the "integrity" of a club like Vauxhall Motors winning the Champions League in 2020 in FM?

Fair point, but on the other hand which lunatic would enjoy playing 20 seasons at an amateur side with ZERO chances of ever achieving the tiniest bit of success, be it a meager promotion from Tier 5 to Tier 4 (likely just to get relegated dead last the following season)?

FM is a GAME, so a certain degree of "unrealism" has to be expected and welcomed.

A better AI squad building and a smarter transfer policy would help making the game more challenging, thus requiring a lot more effort to lead Vauxhall Motors to European glory...

But an unforgivingly realistic game would make almost pointless playing with anything outside the Top Ten clubs in Europe, as even as Spurs or Valencia you'd be lucky AND good to reach an Europa League final or to consistently qualify for the CL..

Why bothering with BSN or with Finnish football then?

[scott MUFC]

you could always turn real players off. made a few of these games now and seen fluctuations in talent, it does give renamed players of the same stats as real ones, but some seem to just appear with insane stats, and decent players are harder to sign at lower levels.

[x42bn6]

And it's mind-bloggling for me that people can't see how by simply including the option, SI would be ruining the integrity of the game world they've created.

All of the options in FM that affect the difficulty of the game are done so in a realistic and non-obtrusive manner that reinforces the integrity of the gameworld.

Like not moving matches for television, making it easier for teams in Europe; or modifying the detail level, so that some players develop less realistically; or allowing transfer budgets in the first season, which gives the teams a second chance at the first transfer window?

All of these options ruin the integrity of the gameworld in some way by changing the realism and difficulty. Are they bad options to have? Certainly not.

[scott MUFC]

youth players don't develop enough imo, even though they will be first team players and good ones at that IRL

[Ackter]

Like not moving matches for television, making it easier for teams in Europe; or modifying the detail level, so that some players develop less realistically; or allowing transfer budgets in the first season, which gives the teams a second chance at the first transfer window?

All of these options ruin the integrity of the gameworld in some way by changing the realism and difficulty. Are they bad options to have? Certainly not.

All that proves is how long it's been since you've bought an FM. Maybe if you'd base your arguments on personal experience, rather than what you've read posted by people you want to believe, you'd be in a better position to make your point.

[Dave C]

Can I just point out that it's irrelevant whether or not a feature like this would ruin the integrity of the game. Far from being a "simple" difficulty level, given the hugely complicated model that underpins the attributes/ability and development, this would be an immensely difficult feature to implement. So when it adds little to the actual gameplay, it's just not justified on a practical level. And that's really the bottom line.

[Ackter]

We've covered that point already Dave

[x42bn6]

All that proves is how long it's been since you've bought an FM. Maybe if you'd base your arguments on personal experience, rather than what you've read posted by people you want to believe, you'd be in a better position to make your point.

Why use my own anecdotal evidence?

Take even the addition of new leagues. This affects the accuracy of the leagues you add, compromising the integrity of the game. Why is this acceptable?

[Ackter]

Again, how would you know? You've never even seen it in action.

[x42bn6]

Again, how would you know? You've never even seen it in action.

"One does not need cancer to analyse its symptoms."

Adding/removing leagues was described as being able to pick your leagues during a save like at the start of a new save. It's not rocket science. People who have discussed the issue around adding/removing leagues and what it does to the database size state that it creates players in those leagues, which makes sense as this is precisely what adding leagues at the start of a save does - don't load a league and a limited number of players are loaded from that league, with more grey players.

I know this is what it does because nobody has ever slammed SI on this forum for misleading advertising. It does what it says on the tin.

It's silly to state that someone needs to have first-hand experience of something in order to comment on it. In every single game, in every single series (not just Football Manager), there are users who struggle to play the game and there are veterans who know the game inside-out. Ever hear of learning curves? They're related. You don't need personal experiences to suggest that difficulty levels can mitigate new users and engage veterans who find the game easy. It's a potential solution that works in just about any game.

[Ackter]

Oh good God. Please just stop with your rubbish.

[x42bn6]

Oh good God. Please just stop with your rubbish.

Then stop with the rubbish statements along the lines of "you should use personal anecdotal evidence".

[ilCuoreDiRoma]

no, individual attributes shouldn't be boosted

there are ways to make the game harder. give your entire squad low bonus payouts for league/cup/continental. and play with "sunday league" reputation

[Ackter]

You should. You are completely and utterly uninformed about the subject matter, and that you're perfectly capable of starting with that one quote there alone is baffling enough, but to not actually understand its context is something on a whole other level. Do you know what your argumental style is reminiscent of? Fundamentalist creationism.

Now seriously, that's enough. It's alright sharing your opinion about something, but to continually degrade threads into semantic and pointless arguments in the way you continue to do is not on. It's trolling.

[Kenco]

You should. You are completely and utterly uninformed about the subject matter, and that you're perfectly capable of starting with that one quote there alone is baffling enough, but to not actually understand its context is something on a whole other level. Do you know what your argumental style is reminiscent of? Fundamentalist creationism.

Now seriously, that's enough. It's alright sharing your opinion about something, but to continually degrade threads into semantic and pointless arguments in the way you continue to do is not on. It's trolling.

[x42bn6]

You should. You are completely and utterly uninformed about the subject matter, and that you're perfectly capable of starting with that one quote there alone is baffling enough, but to not actually understand its context is something on a whole other level. Do you know what your argumental style is reminiscent of? Fundamentalist creationism.

Now seriously, that's enough. It's alright sharing your opinion about something, but to continually degrade threads into semantic and pointless arguments in the way you continue to do is not on. It's trolling.

You don't need to personally experience the game in order to realise that a difficulty level is a potential solution to a game that is hard for some people and easy for some people.

There is a reason why the tactics forum is so popular - because a lot of people are seeking help!

The idea that I have to somehow apply my own anecdotal evidence (riddled with confirmation bias) is another reason why I don't think it's necessary.

It's not trolling. It's called disagreeing and debating.

Not informed? The only common theme throughout the FM series since I've played is that the game has been gradually tailored towards making it easier to newcomers. Look at the assistant advice, backroom staff talks and tactics creator. This happens for a reason - the game can get complex, too complex for some. Is it not outlandish that the series could continue in that vein?

What about users who purchase every 2 years, and got FM11 but not FM12? Can they not comment on whether a difficulty level could be applicable? What if it was one of the features that upset them most about FM11, being too easy/hard?

Fundamentalist creationism? At least I've not descended into petulant usage of "crap" and "rubbish" when confronted with a wall of text.

Put it this way. This thread is two pages and I've not posted too much in here. It's clear there is a debate going on outside what I post in here. Try realising for once that people hold other opinions than your own, and use the ignore function rather than name-calling.

[themadsheep2001]

You don't need to personally experience the game in order to realise that a difficulty level is a potential solution to a game that is hard for some people and easy for some people.

There is a reason why the tactics forum is so popular - because a lot of people are seeking help!

The idea that I have to somehow apply my own anecdotal evidence (riddled with confirmation bias) is another reason why I don't think it's necessary.

It's not trolling. It's called disagreeing and debating.

Not informed? The only common theme throughout the FM series since I've played is that the game has been gradually tailored towards making it easier to newcomers. Look at the assistant advice, backroom staff talks and tactics creator. This happens for a reason - the game can get complex, too complex for some. Is it not outlandish that the series could continue in that vein?

What about users who purchase every 2 years, and got FM11 but not FM12? Can they not comment on whether a difficulty level could be applicable? What if it was one of the features that upset them most about FM11, being too easy/hard?

Fundamentalist creationism? At least I've not descended into petulant usage of "crap" and "rubbish" when confronted with a wall of text.

Put it this way. This thread is two pages and I've not posted too much in here. It's clear there is a debate going on outside what I post in here. Try realising for once that people hold other opinions than your own, and use the ignore function rather than name-calling.

Every thread you do the same thing, arguing with semantics and shifting the topic off to something you want to talk about rather than the topic itself, its really quite tiresome.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Some people just don't seem to understand that when some play FM they only want to be the team they support.

Saying if you want an easy game then be Celtic is a very unhelpful statemement especially if you are (for arguement's sake) an ardent Raith Rovers fan who only ever wants to be Raith Rovers.

By the same token why shouldn't people be able to have a more difficult game if they are ardent Manchester City fans?

When I play any version of FM the 1st thing I do is lead my club that I support to glory. Then I take a small non-league side to glory then I'll take a small club from a small nation to glory. I have never managed a big club per se.

[themadsheep2001]

Anyway OP, I understand the need to speed the game up for people who don't have time, but i'd argue its much more easily dealt with through better AI, and therefore better delegation (and more options for delegation) to the staff, something that works towards the spirit of the game, and actually benefits the game in terms of design anyway.

[x42bn6]

Every thread you do the same thing, arguing with semantics and shifting the topic off to something you want to talk about rather than the topic itself, its really quite tiresome.

Do you really think I want to talk about why personal anecdotal evidence is often one of the worst form of evidence? It would be like not being able to have an opinion on a food you haven't tried before, or a particularly dangerous sport before taking part in it.

Ackter has tried to make me use personal anecdotal evidence twice, and I've said twice why it's a bad idea, yet he goes on and compares me to a fundamental creationist. If he's not interested in debating, there's the ignore button.

What is the point of a debate if you cannot dig deep into the arguments?

[Cougar2010]

Do you really think I want to talk about why personal anecdotal evidence is often one of the worst form of evidence? It would be like not being able to have an opinion on a food you haven't tried before, or a particularly dangerous sport before taking part in it.

Ackter has tried to make me use personal anecdotal evidence twice, and I've said twice why it's a bad idea, yet he goes on and compares me to a fundamental creationist. If he's not interested in debating, there's the ignore button.

What is the point of a debate if you cannot dig deep into the arguments?

The problem is you don't want a debate.

You simply want a soapbox to voice your own opinions whilst dismissing anyone who dares to disagree with you.

[Cougar2010]

Some people just don't seem to understand that when some play FM they only want to be the team they support.

Saying if you want an easy game then be Celtic is a very unhelpful statemement especially if you are (for arguement's sake) an ardent Raith Rovers fan who only ever wants to be Raith Rovers.

By the same token why shouldn't people be able to have a more difficult game if they are ardent Manchester City fans?

When I play any version of FM the 1st thing I do is lead my club that I support to glory. Then I take a small non-league side to glory then I'll take a small club from a small nation to glory. I have never managed a big club per se.

Personally I've never bought into the concept that the team you choose sets your difficulty.

Certainly some are more difficult than others due to various factors (Boardroom expectations, quality of squad, money/debt issues) but ultimately the game stays the same.

SI have enough problems building one ME so building others for different difficulty levels is a none starter whilst adding points to attributes will not do what you want as you haven't addressed all the other inputs that go into the ME calculations. There is also the addition problem that it could easily unbalance an already less than perfect ME.

The more organic way to introduce some sort of difficulty is by far the use of staff (More/less advice) which has already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

[Sir_Liam]

It also boggles my mind that people think it won't affect everyone. This is not something SI can tack-on overnight (like tone), this would require a massive amount of work which will take away time spent on more important issues which will have a knock-on effect on the overall quality of the next release, hence it affects everyone.

This and my dislike of difficulty settings in games are why I'm against this.

If there's 5 difficulty settings, then SI would need to have 5 levels of AI. The current one still needs a lot of attention, so it's not realistic to be working on creating any more.

And personally I don't like messing around with difficulty settings in games. I end up struggling to decide which one to use which takes away the enjoyment. That's admittedly more a personal reason, but I can't be the only one.

[Ackter]

I knock difficulty levels up to hardest for games that allow realism, so one shot death in FPSs, Resident Evil etc.

But when it comes to something like Dragon Age or Skyrim, I'm there for the story so knock it down to novice.

[x42bn6]

The problem is you don't want a debate.

You simply want a soapbox to voice your own opinions whilst dismissing anyone who dares to disagree with you.

If I didn't want a debate, why am I posting?

I'm more than happy to concede points if people actually give good arguments.

I've argued my points across and Ackter has told me that it's invalid because forget all those arguments, the most important factor is that you have to have played the game in its latest iteration. Which is, quite frankly, very silly because I know that my own experiences with a game cannot be generalised across the entire Football Manager fanbase (and quite frankly you should know that by now given the posts I make). I would likely not make great use of the difficulty level feature if it were implemented since I play casually, but why should my personal experiences affect what I think will be a good feature to the game?

All I am guilty of is putting across these points not in a manner typical of other posters here:

- That FM already has existing functionality that implicitly changes difficulty - i.e. rescheduling matches for television (affects top sides and teams playing top sides as fixtures are shuffled around), adding/removing new leagues (increases the number of "non-grey" players, making transfers slightly easier for teams "not-quite" at the top), backroom advice (can be ignored, but users can take advantage of it, potentially gaining an advantage, or disadvantage if the staff are rubbish), enabling transfers in the first season (makes the game easier for clubs with money, and harder for clubs without money), and so on

- That many games have difficulty levels, even simulation games such as Sim City 4

- That FM, like any other series, has users who struggle to understand the game, and veterans who find the game easy and might want a bigger challenge, as demonstrated by the odd "help me!" thread on GD, or posters showing off their wonderkid regen striker scoring 100+ goals per season

- That FM has in the past introduced features that have implicitly allowed the difficulty level to drop for some users (i.e. tactics creator and backroom staff meetings)

In conclusion, it is not the worst idea in the world to introduce a difficulty level because quite frankly there are already ways to adjust the difficulty level (without being explicitly called a "difficulty level"). The often-mentioned "pick a bigger club" idea is also plausible although I'd argue it should be harder to play a big side as only the top managers go to big sides. Many of these features compromise the realism and integrity of the game at the expense of fun or game speed. A difficulty level, in reality, is absolutely no different.

Of course, I might actually change my opinion if I play FM12. Yup. I might think that FM hasn't introduced features that have made the game easier in the past, such as the tactics creator and backroom staff meetings if I play FM12. FM12 is so good, it can even change the past. Whether or not I play FM12 is entirely independent on my views on difficulty levels, and in my opinion, using the fact I haven't played FM12 is commenting on the contributor, not the content.

[TacticalGenius]

This is a MANAGER SIMULATION game. If you want it easier, play FMH. It really is as simple as that.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

This is a MANAGER SIMULATION game. If you want it easier, play FMH. It really is as simple as that.

Spoken like someone who has lost the ability to discuss and now has to be very immature.

[Ackter]

The addition of a realistic way of simplifying the game and providing help to struggling users is an essential development for FM.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

The addition of a realistic way of simplifying the game and providing help to struggling users is an essential development for FM.

This is where I came in: It doesn't need to be simplified, just provide a comprehensive manual. They can provide help to struggling users by providing a comprehensive manual.

What I think I'm saying is that a comprehensive manual would be nice.

[Ackter]

This is where I came in: It doesn't need to be simplified, just provide a comprehensive manual. They can provide help to struggling users by providing a comprehensive manual.

What I think I'm saying is that a comprehensive manual would be nice.

Unfortunately that won't be any help to most struggling users. People don't have the patience to read entire posts these days, let alone a Civilzation-sized manual. All the help needs to be internalised and offered to the player in easy to understand and quick references (there's a quite substantial manual built into the game already, but it's not comprehensive and doesn't talk anywhere near enough about how to achieve things in matches).

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Unfortunately that won't be any help to most struggling users. People don't have the patience to read entire posts these days, let alone a Civilzation-sized manual. All the help needs to be internalised and offered to the player in easy to understand and quick references (there's a quite substantial manual built into the game already, but it's not comprehensive and doesn't talk anywhere near enough about how to achieve things in matches).

Hey! I was with you all the way up to "unfortunately"!

[TacticalGenius]

This is where I came in: It doesn't need to be simplified, just provide a comprehensive manual. They can provide help to struggling users by providing a comprehensive manual.

What I think I'm saying is that a comprehensive manual would be nice.

These people want a win button, effectively. They want instant gratification with little to no effort, just like most kids these days. The same type of people who use exploit tactics, in game editors and other aids to cheating and only enjoy the game if they win each match 5-0.

If they 'haven't got time' to play the game properly, they certainly 'haven't got time' to read a FM encyclopedia. What SI need to do is upscale FMH for the PC and Call it 'FM Lite' or something.

[QWERTYOP]

Awful idea. You make the game easy by being Manchester City. You make the game difficult by being Havant & Waterlooville.

[Ackter]

Awful idea. You make the game easy by being Manchester City. You make the game difficult by being Havant & Waterlooville.

This kind of reply always annoys me, for a few reasons.

Being H&W isn't harder, it just takes longer

Who wants to be H&W when their favourite team is Crystal Palace, for example

If the Man City job was easy, would they be paying their manager millions a year or would they just hire some idiot fan off the street?

[TacticalGenius]

This kind of reply always annoys me, for a few reasons.

Being H&W isn't harder, it just takes longer

Who wants to be H&W when their favourite team is Crystal Palace, for example

If the Man City job was easy, would they be paying their manager millions a year or would they just hire some idiot fan off the street?

While I agree with points 1 and 2, with point 3, you can't compare real life management to a game.

I prefer managing clubs with enforced restrictions (Athletic Club especially) because they are more of a challenge with such a limited pool of talent, or managing teams from the unplayable leagues (holiday method) because starting at the top, with a team that has history and only the same trophies to win each season, is boring.

[themadsheep2001]

While I agree with points 1 and 2, with point 3, you can't compare real life management to a game.

I prefer managing clubs with enforced restrictions (Athletic Club especially) because they are more of a challenge with such a limited pool of talent, or managing teams from the unplayable leagues (holiday method) because starting at the top, with a team that has history and only the same trophies to win each season, is boring.

But not everyone plays that way, or indeed should have to play that way to get a "better" challenge. If the AI was better then playing in any team would be a challenge.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Unfortunately that won't be any help to most struggling users. People don't have the patience to read entire posts these days, let alone a Civilzation-sized manual. All the help needs to be internalised and offered to the player in easy to understand and quick references (there's a quite substantial manual built into the game already, but it's not comprehensive and doesn't talk anywhere near enough about how to achieve things in matches).

As one of the guilty (still playing FM10 ) I don't know much about this, I would be most interested to know if there is an explanation of how tutoring works?

[Ackter]

Don't think so. It's more of a How To than a How Does.

[QWERTYOP]

Of course it's harder! I could find you a 14 year old boy off the street that had never played or seen FM in his life, and he would stand a good chance of winning the title with Manchester City. Life at City is a breeze compared to some debt-ridden lower league club. I know - i've tried both many times.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Don't think so. It's more of a How To than a How Does.

Erm that's what I meant. :o

So it does tell you ages for tutors and tutees, the squad status requirements, relevant reputations, etc?

[Ackter]

Of course it's harder! I could find you a 14 year old boy off the street that had never played or seen FM in his life, and he would stand a good chance of winning the title with Manchester City. Life at City is a breeze compared to some debt-ridden lower league club. I know - i've tried both many times.

So have I, they're both easy.

[Ackter]

Erm that's what I meant. :o

So it does tell you ages for tutors and tutees, the squad status requirements, relevant reputations, etc?

No idea, if I try and launch it my PC will finally die and my new one hasn't arrived yet.

[Äktsjon Männ]

So have I, they're both easy.

I'd say it's even easier in the lower leagues because it's not difficult at all to assemble a team of players that could be playing on a much higher level. The amount of quality players hanging around unemployed and willing to sign for your lower league club is insane and the AI does nothing to compete for them.

[Ackter]

I'd say it's even easier in the lower leagues because it's not difficult at all to assemble a team of players that could be playing on a much higher level. The amount of quality players hanging around unemployed and willing to sign for your lower league club is insane and the AI does nothing to compete for them.

If it wasn't Man C we were talking about I'd agree with you. With the £80m ish they give you, added to the team you already have, it's just as easy as picking Maidenhead and just signing an entirely new team from the hundreds of free transfers that are far too good for the league you're in.

And once you hit the Conference (or whatever it's called now), you can pick up all the released Premiership youngsters who will see you through until the Championship.

[Bobble2002]

This post has lost me

The Op stated he wants it quicker to play through as he does not have as much time, but then he says he wants the stats adjustable which does nothing whatsoever for making quicker to play . He will still have to do all the setting up of the team and training etc which means nothing has changed it just becomes a lot lot easier to win , which is not that hard anyway so the game still takes just as long to play . surely if he wanted a quicker game the easier solution would be options to turn on/off things like the press conferences or the chairman and board do all the player wages negociations once you tell them what player you want to buy so that it moves along faster

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

This post has lost me

The Op stated he wants it quicker to play through as he does not have as much time, but then he says he wants the stats adjustable which does nothing whatsoever for making quicker to play . He will still have to do all the setting up of the team and training etc which means nothing has changed it just becomes a lot lot easier to win , which is not that hard anyway so the game still takes just as long to play . surely if he wanted a quicker game the easier solution would be options to turn on/off things like the press conferences or the chairman and board do all the player wages negociations once you tell them what player you want to buy so that it moves along faster

Hmm. Clearly never played FM12.

With attributes increased on an easy level you can happily leave everything else in the game on automatic and be succesfull. No messing around with training, team talks or anything else.

Right now I wouldn't trust trust my staff with making an omlete even if the were ranked with 20 in every attribute. Leaving so much to the staff is often disasterous and leads to the sack.

Hence a much quicker game.

[Ackter]

That suggests you pick entirely the wrong staff. My assistant manager has more winners medals than Alex Ferguson.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

That suggests you pick entirely the wrong staff. My assistant manager has more winners medals than Alex Ferguson.

Really? That suggests your knowledge of staff isn't that good either.

Leave you assistant to organise pre-season freindlies and leave him to play the games. Then come back and let me know just how many players lack match fitness.

Now try it with an AssMan with 20s in all areas. Result - exactly the same!!!

[themadsheep2001]

Really? That suggests your knowledge of staff isn't that good either.

Leave you assistant to organise pre-season freindlies and leave him to play the games. Then come back and let me know just how many players lack match fitness.

Now try it with an AssMan with 20s in all areas. Result - exactly the same!!!

Ackter plays as a "DoF" of sorts. He leaves his staff almost entirely in charge IIRC.

It's certainly not the same result. Good staff most definitely make a big difference.

[Ackter]

Yup. I haven't played a match in something like 60 seasons.