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CaptainPlanet

England vs Italy - Sunday 19:45

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Who freaking cares about Scotland or Scottish fans, ffs

It's disappointing. I expected our defensive 'qualities' to shine through but we're not gonna win unless you impose ourselves a bit more going forward and for all this defensive play we sure did give up a lot of chances. We just did not deal with Pirlo at all, you'd think this would be the cornerstone of the team talk and at least the half time talk.

This is not a classic Italy side and it's a side that we should have had more of a chance against and that's the most disappointing aspect. It's like holding Germany or Spain and hoping for pens but Italy dominated the game and we allowed it, never got a foothold, awful passing and control. Ashley Young has not had a good tournament, Rooney wasn't great. Of course he's not playing in a free flowing attacking side but he won't be so this is it then? He'll be as effective as pretty much any other mid table striker we have? I at least expect a little more when the ball is at his feet.

The pens themself are so painful, we edge in front and you know it's never over with us and I thought if Young misses we'll miss the following one too and it's a shame as Cole usually puts a nice pen in and has taken them in shoot outs too. Young needed to pick a corner instead of just blasting it, ffs and that was when we threw the chance of winning away.

This penalty shoot out record is getting silly and 1/4 final defeats are getting silly now too. This is kind of where we are. We get out a group (granted we won this one, nice :thup:) and then get a 1/4 final, bit of luck we may go further but we invite teams and defend deep and don't use the ball. This is gonna happen again and again.

We didn't have great preparation for this but we did ok. It's passable but it's same old same old in a lot of respects but there's some positives to take from the tournament and hopefully Woy can build on that but also we can get more out the front players as if we don't get more passing and fluidity into our general game we'll be having these same chats at the next World Cup just as we have done at the past 4 or 5 tournaments.

You look at some of the stuff from the late 90s we did actually knock the ball about a bit, hold onto it. I think this all stopped with the 'golden generation' more than anything

:( just a big fat general :( with added :(

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People are going to let Roy get away with this embarrassment because 'we dont have the players'. I will accept that we arent great and the players we have are not up there with Spain, Germany et al but there is not excuse for only 32% possession vs 68% and 9 shots to 36 shots.

Our most common pass combination was Hart to Carrol and Pirlo completed as many passes in this game as milner has all tournament.

Playing two banks of 4 so deep and just hoofing it and not giving players any options on the ball is ridiculous and because of Roy's rigid implementation of 4-4-2 in straight lines we couldnt close pirlo down, so the best player on the park got all the time and space he wanted because the shape of the team without the ball is the most important thing to Hodgson. Thats why our wingers dont attack and our midfielders are usually about 30 yards away from the strikers.

Rooney was poor but I f I was the Italian coach I would have said when he gets the ball just crowd him out, and you can afford to commit 3 or 4 men to hunt the ball down because you know that the rest of the england team are going to be in a different time zone.

Jack Wilshere is a truly promising player, I dont want Roys brand of negative nonsense anywhere near him

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To be fair if we'd had Valencia instead of Milner we'd have won that...

Maybe if the competition was Bolton not Italy

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Amazing how people speak of unlucky England. Lucky England against Sweden and the Ukraine. Lucky not to be obliterated by Italy, who hit the woodwork twice and missed a few proper chances. Could have easily been 1-5 to Italy. England have just been playing as (I) expected, but got a few more points with that. Credit to reaching the QF, but really really lucky to get it to penalties against a much stronger Italian side.

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Who said we were unlucky? And how were we lucky against Sweden?

I've seen quite some posts here saying unlucky England. Sweden match could have been much much different. Welbeck goal was lucky, whether or not he meant it.

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We could have had no complaints if we had lost every match - didnt control any single match because of a tactical system straight out of the Jurassic era. When you forwards are so far away from your midfield who in turn are sat on top of the defence you will never dominate a game.

Less possession and less shots than both Norway and Belgium in games preceding the tournament. Pathetic.

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Percentage of foreign players per league - England 63%, Spain 39%, Italy 48%, Germany 49%. Says it all.
That accounts for British players as well?

tbh, I think that figure accounts for British players too. However, looking at each EPL team's starting XI appearances for 2011-12, only 78 Englishman appear out of 220. :eek:

A fair few of the 78 wouldn't get anywhere near international football.

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I think is different. In previous tournaments when we have gone out at the 1/4s and/or on pens there has been a reasonable sense that we could have won or deserved to win, either way you could make a case for it whereas last night we probably didn't deserve to win so you don't feel it was bad luck or the same sense of tragedy as when we played better in the 120 minutes and went out previously.

Still annoying to take the lead in pens and not capitalise on it. It almost added more pressure rather than making players think 'this is it, this is the chance' and to gather their composure

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We could have had no complaints if we had lost every match - didnt control any single match because of a tactical system straight out of the Jurassic era. When you forwards are so far away from your midfield who in turn are sat on top of the defence you will never dominate a game.

Less possession and less shots than both Norway and Belgium in games preceding the tournament. Pathetic.

You can what he wanted to do though, get a 1-0 lead hold it. Unfortunately he dont have players who can play like that well.

I wouldnt call that pathetic , I would say he ( hodgson) was trying to play with a system .

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And yet all those foreign players don't play nearly as well when Rooney is missing.

He isn't Maradona, he wont pick up England on his shoulders and carry them to a trophy. If he's to play in a meaningful way he needs to play with decent players who are willing to get up and support him, all our attacking players were utterly crap because of the system which meant every time they got the ball they were isolated and under pressure from 3-4 players.

Still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't peformed in a major tournament since he first came onto the scene. He certainly isn't the player he has been hyped up to be.

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Still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't peformed in a major tournament since he first came onto the scene. He certainly isn't the player he has been hyped up to be.

He definitely performed at Euro 2004, and it's hardly his fault he got injured there. But that aside I do get your point.

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Still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't peformed in a major tournament since he first came onto the scene. He certainly isn't the player he has been hyped up to be.

That's backtracking on your part though, failure to perform at major tournaments doesn't necessarily mean a player isn't world class.

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Would you say he is world class, Juni? I remember John Barnes performing far better than Rooney has ever done in and England shirt, and yet he was a major target for the boo-boys instead of constantly getting his backside licked from the media.

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but Joe Hart apparently had the highest pass completition rate of any England player last night, and that was mostly when he was hitting Carroll when he came on. Says it all really.

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Would you say he is world class, Juni? I remember John Barnes performing far better than Rooney has ever done in and England shirt, and yet he was a major target for the boo-boys instead of constantly getting his backside licked from the media.

Yes, I would. I don't base it on small samples, I base it on the body of work over a long period of time and for me he's shown he's amongst the very best at his position in the world.

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but Joe Hart apparently had the highest pass completition rate of any England player last night, and that was mostly when he was hitting Carroll when he came on. Says it all really.

It says it all about England's tactical approach. It doesn't say anything about England's capabilities of keeping possession because they chose not to. A different manager with a different philosophy and a different team could have tried to, with more success. There are players out there who are more than qualified to play in a manner that would be more appreciated. They do it most weeks during the season. There are a number of seriously talented youngsters (14-18yo for the sake of example) coming through who are very adept at playing the sort of style people would like. Opportunities are needed, gutsy managers are needed at club level, and a bit more confidence is needed. That's all.

Not saying Hodgson was wrong btw, he was firmly vindicated in taking England further than the quality of the squad should have allowed. Same as Di Matteo did with Chelsea in Europe.

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Juni - Rooney hasn't shown that capability in an England shirt. He doesn't command a presence on the pitch to lift a team or drive it forwards. Even if he's only played two games this tournament (his own fault), he was even worse than he was in South Africa. Disinterested would probably be an apt word.

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Juni - Rooney hasn't shown that capability in an England shirt. He doesn't command a presence on the pitch to lift a team or drive it forwards. Even if he's only played two games this tournament (his own fault), he was even worse than he was in South Africa. Disinterested would probably be an apt word.
I don't see why that has any relevance on him being a world class player.

Take away his last two games for Portugal, Ronaldo is usually gash for Portugal/doesn't show his club form with the Portuguese NT but that doesn't mean he isn't a phenomenal player/world class/2nd best player in the world.

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Highlight of the night was the bitterness of Alan Shearer saying that Balotelli has achieved nothing in his career

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Yes, I would. I don't base it on small samples, I base it on the body of work over a long period of time and for me he's shown he's amongst the very best at his position in the world.

It says it all about England's tactical approach. It doesn't say anything about England's capabilities of keeping possession because they chose not to. A different manager with a different philosophy and a different team could have tried to, with more success. There are players out there who are more than qualified to play in a manner that would be more appreciated. They do it most weeks during the season. There are a number of seriously talented youngsters (14-18yo for the sake of example) coming through who are very adept at playing the sort of style people would like. Opportunities are needed, gutsy managers are needed at club level, and a bit more confidence is needed. That's all.

Not saying Hodgson was wrong btw, he was firmly vindicated in taking England further than the quality of the squad should have allowed. Same as Di Matteo did with Chelsea in Europe.

Venables got England to the Semi-Finals in 1996 (Euros)

after that,

Hoddle, Keegan, Eriksson, McClaren, Capello and Hodgson have not achieved anything spectacular. (Although they've done fine if you'd ask myself) - does that mean that all managers have imposed a wrong tactical approach and that there were incorrect philosophies - or are the players; English players in general just not cut out to be world beaters? It might just be under-performing. Spain have been chokers for a while, although they've recovered reasonably :D - France seem to still choke whilst they have a very strong team... The Dutch side choke more often than not (WC 2010 seems a bit more of an odd one out)

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If you look at the tournament as a whole there's only Ireland that has a lower average possesion percentage than England...I don't think that it's all about tactics but also a quite a bit about the technical ability of the British players.

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Venables got England to the Semi-Finals in 1996 (Euros)

after that,

Hoddle, Keegan, Eriksson, McClaren, Capello and Hodgson have not achieved anything spectacular. (Although they've done fine if you'd ask myself) - does that mean that all managers have imposed a wrong tactical approach and that there were incorrect philosophies - or are the players; English players in general just not cut out to be world beaters? It might just be under-performing. Spain have been chokers for a while, although they've recovered reasonably :D - France seem to still choke whilst they have a very strong team... The Dutch side choke more often than not (WC 2010 seems a bit more of an odd one out)

It's not necessarily so much about achievement as it is about how they went about things; each manager went in with a defeatist, underdog attitude rather than to have the balls to try and assert themselves. If you've got the likes of Scholes, Ince, McManaman, Beckham (three of those handled themselves very well outside of England remember), and latterly Gerrard, Lampard, Hargreaves (another who played successfully abroad), and they're as good as people suggest they are, they're capable of playing a more retentive, composed style of play than they were ever allowed to at international level. They all certainly proved capable of it at club level anyway, and for a considerable period of time and against many of the same players they come up against for their countries.

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People are going to let Roy get away with this embarrassment because 'we dont have the players'. I will accept that we arent great and the players we have are not up there with Spain, Germany et al but there is not excuse for only 32% possession vs 68% and 9 shots to 36 shots.

Jack Wilshere is a truly promising player, I dont want Roys brand of negative nonsense anywhere near him

Thankyou. Was a shower of sh*t and had been all tournament. We rode our luck through a field of nine inch nails, the punctured tyre was inevitable. As for Wilshere, he'll be the next Scott Parker, ball-winning, heart on his sleeve, gives it his all, energizer bunny. Already been deployed deep in the 4-2-3-1 by Capello.

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He played deep once for 45 mins alongside Lampard in a 442. Then Capello played him in a 3 man midfield alongside Parker and Lampard. Same as at Arsenal (song and Cesc). Now if Roy keeps the 442 then we could be trouble. Wilshere will get bogged down with defensive work alongside someone like Gerrard

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It's quite funny/disconcerting depending on your PoV to see how Wilshere has effectively already been converted from a playmaker to a box to box type purely because he has a bit of combativeness about him. He's a fantastic attacking and creative talent, and whilst you obviously can't draw comparisons in terms of ability right now, his style appears similar to that of an Iniesta and he does things superbly at full speed.

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Highlight of the night was the bitterness of Alan Shearer saying that Balotelli has achieved nothing in his career
I quite enjoyed the orgasms he was having leading upto the pens - 'Come on Joe!' was uttered as load as possible and repeated it as many times as he could before it switched to the commentary team :D

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Oooh, zing! *whooooosh*

Ok, now the show is boring...

That's all for me

Bye..

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Not really. Since under Capello they were knocking around the mid 50% with basically the same players. It was just **** tactics.

Nail on the head. Awful negative tactics. Jamie carragher wrote in his telegraph column that the only explanation for how Hodgson told his wingers to play is that he had never managed a good winger because it was all about what do do without the ball.

hodgsons style is so regimented that i don't think it will work when you only have the players for a few days and his coaching is contrary to what they are coached the rest of the time

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reason we had 50% possesion with Capello, is the fact we passed it around at the back, got to halfway and then back again.

the fact is how much possesion you have is meaningless if you do nothing with it.

Eengland beat spain a friendly with only 30%, if you are going to play the way we did we should be having pace on the wings to counter attack properly.

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Guest avine

England could try and press higher up the pitch, only this. Italy has a good team, this match-up England-Italy was not favorable for England, it ended with penalties decision i am not convinced that Italy would win 6/10 times.

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reason we had 50% possesion with Capello, is the fact we passed it around at the back, got to halfway and then back again.

the fact is how much possesion you have is meaningless if you do nothing with it.

Eengland beat spain a friendly with only 30%, if you are going to play the way we did we should be having pace on the wings to counter attack properly.

It's clear from that post you know little about Hodgson, in his eyes wide players are there to tuck in and work back, what they do going forward is an irrelevance to him, otherwise why pick Milner

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It's clear from that post you know little about Hodgson, in his eyes wide players are there to tuck in and work back, what they do going forward is an irrelevance to him, otherwise why pick Milner

...But because you've read an article from Jamie Carragher about Hodgson you know his thought process inside & out.

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You can give Roy a pass for this tournament because of the short notice but if he's got England doing the same thing 18 months from now he'll get torn a new one.

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england had too many **** players on the pitch yesterday, simple as. hodgson got his starting line up wrong and his substitutions aswell.

the depths we have fallen to when people actually think wellbeck is good enough to be our number 1 striker and wilshere is our next big hope is astounding. these players are nowhere near good enough to compete with the best teams.

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...But because you've read an article from Jamie Carragher about Hodgson you know his thought process inside & out.

Anecdotal evidence from players who played for him is better than just making stuff up, no?

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Carroll did ok yesterday when he came on, looked about 12 feet tall and was easily winning and holding the ball up for us. Trouble last night is we saw our strikers in our own box too much so we had no outlet when we got the ball

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a lot of people I watched the game with were slating Rooney, tbf he obviously wasn't fit, his legs had gone after an hour let alone by the end of the 120 minutes. Fair play to him for scoring the penalty though, was convinced he'd sky it.

So why was he still on the pitch? Anyone else but Rooney he would have been taken off, but managers too scared to do it with him

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So why was he still on the pitch?

To take a penalty that we so cleared played for since the 45th minute

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So why was he still on the pitch? Anyone else but Rooney he would have been taken off, but managers too scared to do it with him

Because if the game went to pens that he is our best pen taker along with Gerrard.

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To take a penalty that we so cleared played for since the 45th minute

Dont you mean since the 25th minute?

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Good point well made Craig :D

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Because if the game went to pens that he is our best pen taker along with Gerrard.

And thats the problem with England, negative play. Playing for a draw

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england had too many **** players on the pitch yesterday, simple as. hodgson got his starting line up wrong and his substitutions aswell.

the depths we have fallen to when people actually think wellbeck is good enough to be our number 1 striker and wilshere is our next big hope is astounding. these players are nowhere near good enough to compete with the best teams.

Welbeck you have a point but Wilshere? Before his injuries he was flying.

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And thats the problem with England, negative play. Playing for a draw

We set up all wrong from the very start. Should have played 3 in central midfield so that we weren't outnumbered by the Italians, we should have had Parker man-marking Pirlo all game. Gerro and Henderson and pick up the loose balls and pick out a pass to Rooney or out wide.

I said before the game that if we dont stop Pirlo playing then we would really struggle and that proved the case. He ran the show and was allowed to all game.

I think it was Rooneys jobs to mark Pirlo when Italy/Pirlo had possesion on the ball and that is why we only played with two in midfield.

If we had played 3 in midfield then they would have outnumbered us there and we could have closed down Pirlo better. The two wingers could have been more attacking because of the extra CM

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You can give Roy a pass for this tournament because of the short notice but if he's got England doing the same thing 18 months from now he'll get torn a new one.

Indeed.

You could argue, he's always played the way he has because he's never had good enough players to work with at any of the teams he's managed.

It would make sense to stick with what he has always done at short notice, but going forward he needs to show that even at his age, he is open to new ideas. If he doesn't, then he would deserve every piece of criticism coming his way.

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This is the longest spell that he will have to work with the players for the next two years so I would say this is a fair barometer of how we are going to play especially given the garbage he was spouting at the press conference today about possession.

From what Carragher has been writing and saying and given that he has a direct line into the camp thru Gerrard it sounds the same as it was at liverpool. No wonder the players had none of it, can you imagine being Torres going from playing in THAT spansih team to listening to some clueless berk prattle on about getting everyone behind the ball and playing in straight lines with no flair or movement :D

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