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Senegal's Arsenal Thread 2012/2013 : featuring positive negativity

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Sy13

Sy13

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AW talking about RvP....

Wenger "What is painful is to see United so far in front of us. We knew when we sold him to Utd that would be the case" from @amylawrence71

Remember, we sold him for "footballing reasons".

This is the man who said we couldn't be called ambitious if we sold Cesc and Nasri just weeks before selling them both.

This is the man who claims 4th is the same as winning a trophy.

This is Arsenal. We want to be the best at every level. We want to genuinely compete for real trophies, not sell the best players and replace them with Gervinho, Chamakh and Diaby etc. We're being charged Ritz prices for McDonalds Happy Meals and it has got to stop. We CAN afford better players like Mata, Cavani etc - we don't need to buy Messi or Ronaldo to challenge United for the title.

Arsenal are stuck in a hole and whilst we're all reaching up for help, Wenger is digging us deeper.

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Henry_14

Henry_14

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It isn't about wanting the team to fail, it's about wanting events to come to pass that forces a necessary change. I want to see Arsenal succeed in every way but I now know that simply will not happen with Wenger in charge. Sometimes things have to get worse in order to get better.

So by not making the Champions League how exactly will a new manager then attract all these tops players we need?

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Henry_14

Henry_14

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AW talking about RvP....

Wenger "What is painful is to see United so far in front of us. We knew when we sold him to Utd that would be the case" from @amylawrence71

Remember, we sold him for "footballing reasons".

This is the man who said we couldn't be called ambitious if we sold Cesc and Nasri just weeks before selling them both.

This is the man who claims 4th is the same as winning a trophy.

This is Arsenal. We want to be the best at every level. We want to genuinely compete for real trophies, not sell the best players and replace them with Gervinho, Chamakh and Diaby etc. We're being charged Ritz prices for McDonalds Happy Meals and it has got to stop. We CAN afford better players like Mata, Cavani etc - we don't need to buy Messi or Ronaldo to challenge United for the title.

Arsenal are stuck in a hole and whilst we're all reaching up for help, Wenger is digging us deeper.

When will people stop taking Wengers press conferences and quotes seriously - you know he never means what he says. He knows as well as we do that Robin left because of money - not for footballing reasons. Hes not going to admit that though is he.

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Candre168

Candre168

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Here's my take on the whole 'we need to spend more money' thing.

First of all, we are never going to buy a Falcao or a Cavani. Such a player would set us back in excess of £40M easily, and yeah, the club could probably 'technically' afford it, but practically speaking spending so much money on one player isn't feasible when other positions need strengthening.

That being said, we should be spending £40-50M on several players this summer window if we want to get serious. And yeah, we've spent that much money before, but only after selling key players to essentially balance the budget. We need to add that in value to our already existing squad. I firmly believe we should be able to sign 3 good players with that sort of money. And I'm far more in favour of a well balanced team, than a team with 1-2 'stars'.

Secondly, if we genuinely don't have transfer money to spend, it would surprise me. When you have a borderline communist ideology of trying to pay everyone equally, you end up in trouble. This has GOT to STOP. You cannot reward mediocre attitudes and performances. And what's more, instead of spending money on crap players like Squillaci, Park and Santos, that end up being failures and leaving for nothing, you could do the sensible thing and research your deals thoroughly without scrambling around last second.

Thirdly, I'd like to point out that one of the best players to ever play for our club, Dennis Bergkamp, when signed WAS a blockbuster mega signing. He was an ex-Ajax and Inter Milan star (which meant a lot more back then, for both sides), a Dutch International and broke our record club transfer fee 3 times over. So despite what I said earlier, it's not like we've never signed a Cavani/Falcao type player before.

Just my opinion.

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johnhughthom

johnhughthom

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Thirdly, I'd like to point out that one of the best players to ever play for our club, Dennis Bergkamp, when signed WAS a blockbuster mega signing. He was an ex-Ajax and Inter Milan star (which meant a lot more back then, for both sides), a Dutch International and broke our record club transfer fee 3 times over. So despite what I said earlier, it's not like we've never signed a Cavani/Falcao type player before.

Platt was signed that summer too, iirc, and that was after a spell of mediocrity that would have had Sy hiring hitmen to take out George Graham. Maybe someone could set Wenger up with a bung scandal, probably the only way to get rid of him.

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SJ234

SJ234

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AW talking about RvP....

Wenger "What is painful is to see United so far in front of us. We knew when we sold him to Utd that would be the case" from @amylawrence71

Remember, we sold him for "footballing reasons".

This is the man who said we couldn't be called ambitious if we sold Cesc and Nasri just weeks before selling them both.

This is the man who claims 4th is the same as winning a trophy.

This is Arsenal. We want to be the best at every level. We want to genuinely compete for real trophies, not sell the best players and replace them with Gervinho, Chamakh and Diaby etc. We're being charged Ritz prices for McDonalds Happy Meals and it has got to stop. We CAN afford better players like Mata, Cavani etc - we don't need to buy Messi or Ronaldo to challenge United for the title.

Arsenal are stuck in a hole and whilst we're all reaching up for help, Wenger is digging us deeper.

Some this is just awful. 'footballing reasons' was bollocks we all knew it he knew it. 4th is more important than half of the trophies we compete for so yes it is like a trophy ****** way of describing it but that is how football is. Nasri was sold by the board by all accounts the issue there lies in the contract rather than the sale and anyway he hasn't been that good for City and he only really lived up to his potential in about a 4 month spell with us the rest of the time he drifted in and out of games with alarming ease.

The issue with Diaby is not his ability but rather his injuries that is the issue. We can't afford Cavani. We are stuck in the hole the last point is simplistic

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Candre168

Candre168

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Platt was signed that summer too, iirc, and that was after a spell of mediocrity that would have had Sy hiring hitmen to take out George Graham. Maybe someone could set Wenger up with a bung scandal, probably the only way to get rid of him.

Platt cost a decent fee of £4.75M as well, a lot back those days. NOt like it's something 'new' to the club to break the bank for a player or two.

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Candre168

Candre168

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We can't afford Cavani.

Do you have any solid proof that we don't have 40M to spend? Because I think part of the problem at the moment is that the fans do not know whether we have money or not. Fans keep hearing that we are running for a profit, fans keep seeing top players sold and they wonder why the club can't splash the cash once every blue moon. And if we really don't have money, then why did the board do everything to keep Usmanov out of the club? Where is Stan 'The Man' in all of this?

There's too many questions around the club and some of them need to be answered out of due respect to the people that keep the club afloat (the fans).

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ajw10

ajw10

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When will people stop taking Wengers press conferences and quotes seriously - you know he never means what he says. He knows as well as we do that Robin left because of money - not for footballing reasons. Hes not going to admit that though is he.

How did RvP leave for the money?

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SJ234

SJ234

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Do you have any solid proof that we don't have 40M to spend? Because I think part of the problem at the moment is that the fans do not know whether we have money or not. Fans keep hearing that we are running for a profit, fans keep seeing top players sold and they wonder why the club can't splash the cash once every blue moon. And if we really don't have money, then why did the board do everything to keep Usmanov out of the club? Where is Stan 'The Man' in all of this?

There's too many questions around the club and some of them need to be answered out of due respect to the people that keep the club afloat (the fans).

We could pay the fee but what about the wages needed to beat off teams who are more likely to win titles are outside of our reach if we want to buy many more players and also will be miles above our wage structure which isn't good either.

My issue is this there is money it is in the accounts but I am not convinced Wenger has complete freedom to do what he has wanted with it or he hasn't done previously.

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SteveUK

SteveUK

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Agreed he left to win things, United Win trophies on a consistent basis compared to City so hes more likely to win something in the possible last 3 years of his top level playing career, he probably would of got alot more money at City but we can only speculate on that, the league table at this moment reinforces the choice RVP Made was the correct one so far and i wish him all the luck in the world.

Prediction for tomorrow's match Arsenal 1(Koscielny(2nd)) - Man City 2(Dzeko(1st) & Silva(3rd))

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Kawee

Kawee

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Do you have any solid proof that we don't have 40M to spend? Because I think part of the problem at the moment is that the fans do not know whether we have money or not. Fans keep hearing that we are running for a profit, fans keep seeing top players sold and they wonder why the club can't splash the cash once every blue moon. And if we really don't have money, then why did the board do everything to keep Usmanov out of the club? Where is Stan 'The Man' in all of this?

There's too many questions around the club and some of them need to be answered out of due respect to the people that keep the club afloat (the fans).

Arsenal release financial reports every year, so we actually have a pretty good idea what our financial situation is like.

The latest one was before the new commercial deals though, so it might be a bit different, but the summary is as follow:

1. We make profit every year, but only because of player sales. Without the sales, we'd be in the red.

2. We're making losses because of rising cost and revenue not keeping up.

3. Rising cost is almost entirely wages. It has gone above 100m for the first time after we moved to the Emirates, and it is now 140m. Our wage budget is massive.

4. Our matchday revenue is very respectable, but our commercial revenue is abysmal. We're behind 100m behind the likes of Barcelona, Bayern, and Madrid. We're just under 50% of Man Utd, and about 20 something million behind Liverpool in this area.

So, in terms of financial situations, two things need to happen for us to be able to compete more efficiently. One, we need to maximize our commercial revenue. It's our main area of growth, because we can't get much more from the Emirates, we're running out of properties to sell (old Highbury) and we can't keep selling our players forever. If we can be just 75% as big as Man Utd, that would be an extra 30 million a year. Two, we need to manage our budget much better. I think this is pretty common knowledge. We don't have a small wage budget, but we do waste an awful lot of it on players who don't contribute anywhere near enough.

I get my information from Swiss Ramble.

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Candre168

Candre168

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Plus the £150,000 a week wages, to which you'll get players like Carzola, Walcott, Wilshere etc wondering why they are only getting half of the new player's wage and wanting raises etc

So what? How does everyone else manage it? If other players are unhappy they can earn a higher wage. Cavani/Falcao are more proven than anyone in our squad.

Arsenal release financial reports every year, so we actually have a pretty good idea what our financial situation is like.

The latest one was before the new commercial deals though, so it might be a bit different, but the summary is as follow:

1. We make profit every year, but only because of player sales. Without the sales, we'd be in the red.

2. We're making losses because of rising cost and revenue not keeping up.

3. Rising cost is almost entirely wages. It has gone above 100m for the first time after we moved to the Emirates, and it is now 140m. Our wage budget is massive.

4. Our matchday revenue is very respectable, but our commercial revenue is abysmal. We're behind 100m behind the likes of Barcelona, Bayern, and Madrid. We're just under 50% of Man Utd, and about 20 something million behind Liverpool in this area.

So, in terms of financial situations, two things need to happen for us to be able to compete more efficiently. One, we need to maximize our commercial revenue. It's our main area of growth, because we can't get much more from the Emirates, we're running out of properties to sell (old Highbury) and we can't keep selling our players forever. If we can be just 75% as big as Man Utd, that would be an extra 30 million a year. Two, we need to manage our budget much better. I think this is pretty common knowledge. We don't have a small wage budget, but we do waste an awful lot of it on players who don't contribute anywhere near enough.

I get my information from Swiss Ramble.

I maintain a lot of this is down to terrible wage structure, and blown money on rubbish players. And if we really are that behind on the commercial front, well who's in charge of that? Who manage the marketing side of the club? And why can't they come out and say this bluntly instead of leaving fans wondering.

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Candre168

Candre168

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Because they can afford to have multiple players on £100k+ a week and we can't? Partly due to as you say, a terrible wage structure. I wouldn't say we blow money on rubbish players any more than any other club however.

Like I said, if players are unhappy with others earning more...then these individual players can go out and prove they deserve that kind of money. I'm tired of the attitude in this club that 'everyone deserves their fair slice of the cake'. It's rubbish. None of the players in our squad are proven winners or proven star players, with the exception of Cazorla. None of the players in our team are indispensable. In fact, I'd argue 80% of them should be earning HALF what they currently earn.

Cavani/Falcao both are indispensable world class players, and if the reason we are put off signing someone like this is because paying an individual £150k a week will upset some of the other players, then it shows everything that's wrong with our club.

And something else...how many strikers do we have at the moment? How many defenders? How many central midfielders? If you ask me, our squad is really low numbers wise. We only have 1 central striker at the moment. And only 1 left back (I'm sorry, Santos doesn't count). And only 3 central defenders. And we're still relying on Diaby/Rosicky being fit in midfield. It's not like we have a large squad or anything....

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Falahk

Falahk

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Plus the £150,000 a week wages, to which you'll get players like Carzola, Walcott, Wilshere etc wondering why they are only getting half of the new player's wage and wanting raises etc
never seen any of our players complain about Tottis wage and demand a wage rise because of it

in most clubs this kind of things would not be a problem

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johnhughthom

johnhughthom

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Totti has been at the club forever and is a club legend, if someone was brought in and given a wage much higher than anyone else it would be a different story.

In the early 90s Adams was on much more than any other player, he was club captain and highly respected so it wasn't an issue. Henry was on mor than anyone else, this was accepted because he was Thierry Henry. There is no one even close to their stature at Arsenal right now to be on much more than anyone else.

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Candre168

Candre168

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Totti has been at the club forever and is a club legend, if someone was brought in and given a wage much higher than anyone else it would be a different story.

In the early 90s Adams was on much more than any other player, he was club captain and highly respected so it wasn't an issue. Henry was on mor than anyone else, this was accepted because he was Thierry Henry. There is no one even close to their stature at Arsenal right now to be on much more than anyone else.

No, what we're saying is that if we bought Cavani or someone like that, they'd be justifiably on a much higher wage than everyone else. And if someone else is unhappy about it, they can go and earn a higher wage instead of complaining.

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johnhughthom

johnhughthom

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Personally I disagree that a player coming in from outside on a much larger salary than the rest of the players won't cause resentment. Unless it's a genuine superstar, Messi, Ronaldo etc, the sort of player Arsenal are miles from signing. A player should prove himself at a new club before becoming the main man, what he did elsewhere is the past. Fair enough, match a big signing up with the top earners, but putting him way out in front is a bad idea. In my opinion. Respect in the press and stands is not the same as respect in the dressing room.

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Falahk

Falahk

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Personally I disagree that a player coming in from outside on a much larger salary than the rest of the players won't cause resentment. Unless it's a genuine superstar, Messi, Ronaldo etc, the sort of player Arsenal are miles from signing. A player should prove himself at a new club before becoming the main man, what he did elsewhere is the past. Fair enough, match a big signing up with the top earners, but putting him way out in front is a bad idea. In my opinion. Respect in the press and stands is not the same as respect in the dressing room.
the whole point me and Candre168 was trying to make is that if you bring in a star player on a big wage it is unlikely that the other players would complain about it, infact its probable that they would like the ambition you are showing
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SJ234

SJ234

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Bull.

Arsenal were willing to offer RvP well over £100k per week to keep him.

Well over? How much over?

If Denilson/Diaby justifies 50k a week, Cavani/Falcao certainly justify 150k...or more. Excluding Cazorla, they are two players who are at least three tiers above anyone else in our squad right now.

That misses the point for us to attract those type of players we have to pay substantially more than that as well other teams will pay more than that and that is forgetting the advantage they have in terms of trophy wining which to overcome would probably need more money

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johnhughthom

johnhughthom

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the whole point me and Candre168 was trying to make is that if you bring in a star player on a big wage it is unlikely that the other players would complain about it, infact its probable that they would like the ambition you are showing

And the whole point I'm trying to make is that I disagree with that, is it really that hard to understand?

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Kawee

Kawee

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I think the wage philosophy is flawed. It was designed for a team that looked more like the Invincibles, than our current team. If someone told you only Henry earned top end wages (just as RvP would have been) and Pires, Ljungberg, Vieira, Silva, Lehmann, Toure, Cole, Campbell, and Bergkamp all earned similar money, you wouldn't mind that at all. However, when you have Cazorla and Diaby earning similar wages, because Wenger thinks they're just like Pires and Vieira, then that becomes a problem. I think it was just a matter of bad decision.

When the move to the Emirates began, we had to make a decision on how to compete. The board probably made it clear to Wenger what his financial limits were, and left him to make all the football decisions around that. Wenger, understandably, chose to grow a team, instead of assembling one (ie. buy young players at cheap prices and develop them together into a competitive team.)

Wenger put all his faith into his ability to develop players into top level competitive team. He thought he could develop the likes Vela, Bendtner, Diaby, and Denilson to compete with Man Utd. To do so, he had to pay them higher wages to keep them. It didn't work out, so we're stuck with average players on high wages. Throw in the fact that Wenger also misjudged some senior signings likes Squid and Gervinho, and we're stuck with quite a few deadweights.

I maintain a lot of this is down to terrible wage structure, and blown money on rubbish players. And if we really are that behind on the commercial front, well who's in charge of that? Who manage the marketing side of the club? And why can't they come out and say this bluntly instead of leaving fans wondering.

It was the old board who was in charge of the commercial deals. However, it wasn't that we didn't realize how valuable we were, particularly with Nike and Emirates. We agreed on a worse deal (long term) in exchange for up front money from those 2 because we needed the money to build the stadium. We knew exactly what we were getting ourselves into, but we chose to do it in order to get the stadium. Whether worse commercial deals are worth the new stadium is debatable.

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bergkamp

bergkamp

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I don't really know what to expect today. I suppose we have to acknowledge that we are playing one of the top two teams in the league, so a draw is not to be sniffed at, although 1 point is pretty boring right?

However I think we have to expect a good performance at the least, regardless of the result. We have pretty much our strongest squad available, are at home, and should be fresh and well drilled, so no excuses. Don't mean to sound too defeatist, I actually think we have a good chance but we'll see...

Its a bit frustrating at the moment, considering our games in hand and how the table stands, we don't really know where we stand and haven't for a while.

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