Liverpool Thread 2012/13

[Kopite]

We aren't got to get top 6 never mind top 4. After Hodgsons reign there was a lot of crap left behind. After Dlaglish there was less but still enough that we had to rebuild. Now there's only one or two that need to go but we probably need to do that plus bring in 6 or 7. Our owners won't spend that money, until they do 8th is about as good as we can hope for.

[Kopite]

How can you say that, surely at some point Daglish must have asked how much money do we have and then how much is Carroll going to cost us. That conversation MUST have happened. I can understand the chairman sorting out the actual details but who in the right mind would have said yes when told Carroll was going to cost over 30 million! Even if you REALLY rated him, he is/was a fifteen million pound player max. If I was FSG I would have been ****ing livid, i'd be asking why we are spending that type of money on a player who isn't even established. It's madness, then when you look at the cost of Downing/Henderson it's crazy.

I always got the impression that football management passed Daglish by and he was still living in the eighties when it came to players and tactics.

So you're saying that a convo between Ayre and Dalglish must have happened but not between the owners and Ayre before he spent it? Maybe Dalglish said he wanted Carroll, Ayre says ok, sorts out the deal and Kenny finds out the cost after?

[PoolFan]

pretty sure it was worked out as £23m net spend under daglish. with tv revenue and match day ticket sales its nothing really.

edit: ok i may be wrong i just checked and apparently it was £38m but we also trimmed £30m off the wage bill in that time and £25m trimmed this summer. how are we supposed to compete given those figures?!

How did Newcastle do so well last season. They bought well and kept those players. This is what we need to do, our scouting has apparently been a major concern and has been looked at. Again though it takes time, i'm talking years here not a few months. We need to be looking at bringing players through the youth team, picking out bargins from Europe, smart loan moves and yes spending big when it makes sense. There is SO much to be done at Liverpool and it will take time.

[PoolFan]

So you're saying that a convo between Ayre and Dalglish must have happened but not between the owners and Ayre before he spent it? Maybe Dalglish said he wanted Carroll, Ayre says ok, sorts out the deal and Kenny finds out the cost after?

I'm saying that Daglish must have known the cost of the Carroll deal and that FSG I assume trusted Daglish to spend the transfer budget sensibly (which he obviously didnt!) I find it so difficult to believe that Ayre would do a deal for Carroll without at all mentioning to Daglish that it was going to cost over 30 million. At which point any sane manager would have said too much and called it off.

[theboydonegood]

Trimming the wages, reducing overheads, signing good long term sponsorship deals, minimal investment into the squad.

Gearing up to sell the club

[Kopite]

How did Newcastle do so well last season. They bought well and kept those players. This is what we need to do, our scouting has apparently been a major concern and has been looked at. Again though it takes time, i'm talking years here not a few months. We need to be looking at bringing players through the youth team, picking out bargins from Europe, smart loan moves and yes spending big when it makes sense. There is SO much to be done at Liverpool and it will take time.

It's not overly difficult to buy without having Newcastles scouts. Cabaye, Ben Arfa, Cisse and Ba were all well known before they went there they just took a punt on them. We should start taking more risks. If there is someone scoring regularly like Cisse was in the Bundesliga take a risk with them if the valuation isn't too high.

[Razzler]

Seeing as Carroll apparently can't play in Roger's system I just wonder if he's sure that Borini can

[niggle]

jesus this thread sinks to a new low, going to bow out for a few days till people get a grip of reality

[SCIAG]

Net spend under Dalglish was roughly £37m.

pretty sure it was worked out as £23m net spend under daglish. with tv revenue and match day ticket sales its nothing really.

edit: ok i may be wrong i just checked and apparently it was £38m but we also trimmed £30m off the wage bill in that time and £25m trimmed this summer. how are we supposed to compete given those figures?!

Net spend is misleading though. If in January you sell Henderson for £8m and sign a random League 1 midfielder for £9m, you have made a loss on Henderson and probably massively overpaid for the other guy. You have about £15m "tied up" in Henderson and selling him for less than that involves throwing some money away. You can't sell players left over from the Benitez/Hodgson era for less than you bought them and claim this has somehow made you money, particularly if your replacements cost slightly more.

[Kopite]

I'm saying that Daglish must have known the cost of the Carroll deal and that FSG I assume trusted Daglish to spend the transfer budget sensibly (which he obviously didnt!) I find it so difficult to believe that Ayre would do a deal for Carroll without at all mentioning to Daglish that it was going to cost over 30 million. At which point any sane manager would have said too much and called it off.

It shouldn't be left to a footballing man with not financial qualifications to be making decisions on budgets though. FSG should have had people on place to do that. Financial men with a background in football, simple. Can't blame Kenny for that, get your head out the sand and look at what's actually going on. I hope they are gearing up to sell the club but then the worry is who will be next.

[Select_screen_name:]

Just everyone shut the **** up shitposting.

[Emersonlfc]

People need to understand that it's going to take time. Up to us to get on board with that or forget about it as giving off **** about everything and anything will not solve anything.

Few days break will do us all the world of good.

[foofighter23]

jesus this thread sinks to a new low, going to bow out for a few days till people get a grip of reality

and what reality would that be then? did nothing of whats being discussed never really happen?

its been in the back of my mind too that FSG are gearing up to sell. the same thing happened with H&G where they gave rafa the bare minimum to work with and he had to resort to loans and free signing to bolster the squad. its all about making money for them not about making us great again it seems.

[PoolFan]

It shouldn't be left to a footballing man with not financial qualifications to be making decisions on budgets though. FSG should have had people on place to do that. Financial men with a background in football, simple. Can't blame Kenny for that, get your head out the sand and look at what's actually going on. I hope they are gearing up to sell the club but then the worry is who will be next.

Isn't the point that its the football man who should be smart enough to realize that spending the money Daglish spent on players was absurd. How can you expect FSG to know footballers value and when you are overpaying for players to such a drastic degree, that's why you have a manager! I am not saying Daglish should be there doing the books, but if you are told you have 70 million to spend and you willingly overpay on players like Downing/ Henderson and Carroll to the extent that Daglish did then you are not doing your job. If we were Man City then yeah that approach is fine, but that's not the case with Liverpool.

I have got my head out of the sand, the problem is you seem to believe that Liverpool have unlimited funds and can simply spend spend spend which is ridiculous. We need to live within our means and build for the future and follow a plan rather than the nonsense that has been going on at the club for the past 5 years.

[Emersonlfc]

@KOPTALK: Liverpool have the option to recall Andy Carroll from West Ham in January as part of their loan agreement. Confirmed.

[Select_screen_name:]

Well, that's ****ing useful to know in the transfer window.

[Kopite]

Isn't the point that its the football man who should be smart enough to realize that spending the money Daglish spent on players was absurd. How can you expect FSG to know footballers value and when you are overpaying for players to such a drastic degree, that's why you have a manager! I am not saying Daglish should be there doing the books, but if you are told you have 70 million to spend and you willingly overpay on players like Downing/ Henderson and Carroll to the extent that Daglish did then you are not doing your job. If we were Man City then yeah that approach is fine, but that's not the case with Liverpool.

I have got my head out of the sand, the problem is you seem to believe that Liverpool have unlimited funds and can simply spend spend spend which is ridiculous. We need to live within our means and build for the future and follow a plan rather than the nonsense that has been going on at the club for the past 5 years.

Where have I said unlimited funds? I simply don't believe that we should be cutting our wage bill by £24m then no reinvesting. The work to get rid of the poor players was good only if we then use that money and wages to build a stronger squad. Let's just agree to disagree with the Dalglish stuff that's been and gone. I'm worried about now. If anybody thinks the way FSG are running things is acceptable then they might as well get used to mid table mediocrity.

[Northeu]

Isn't the point that its the football man who should be smart enough to realize that spending the money Daglish spent on players was absurd. How can you expect FSG to know footballers value and when you are overpaying for players to such a drastic degree, that's why you have a manager! I am not saying Daglish should be there doing the books, but if you are told you have 70 million to spend and you willingly overpay on players like Downing/ Henderson and Carroll to the extent that Daglish did then you are not doing your job. If we were Man City then yeah that approach is fine, but that's not the case with Liverpool.

I have got my head out of the sand, the problem is you seem to believe that Liverpool have unlimited funds and can simply spend spend spend which is ridiculous. We need to live within our means and build for the future and follow a plan rather than the nonsense that has been going on at the club for the past 5 years.

That was Comollis job He WAS the football man the owners trusted to have the experience to know if the money spent was right or not.

Now is it Comollis fault for being rubbish at his job or the owners fault for trusting in a ******** merchant ? its hard to say i think everyone takes some blame.

It's how you react to that, the owners have gone the other way and put their trust in a rookie manager with a nice 180 page book on football and nothing on his CV, It's a gamble again.

[Razzler]

Comoli did ok at Spurs, didn't he?

[Select_screen_name:]

Rodgers confirmed he's looking at free agents to bring in.

Someone get a list of them. I'm sure you can get a list from somewhere.

[LRJ]

Rodgers confirmed he's looking at free agents to bring in.

Someone get a list of them. I'm sure you can get a list from somewhere.

http://www.thepfa.com/transferlist/l...tofcontract/1/

These are only English based players though.

[PoolFan]

I'd take Heskey over Owen, I cannot ****ing stand Owen.

[Northeu]

Comoli did ok at Spurs, didn't he?

You would have to ask spurs fans, I think it was pretty split. He did **** off a couple of managers there and to be fair the Spurs board are a little bit more clued up on football, so there was at least a safety net when it came to signing the cheques.

[Rafalution]

Mikael Forssell

Roman Bednar

Brett Ormerod

David Connolly

James Beattie

Darius Vassell

James McFadden

Michael Owen

Emile Heskey

Ivan Klasnic

Alessandro Del Piero

Drogba

Anelka?

[foofighter23]

Net spend is misleading though. If in January you sell Henderson for £8m and sign a random League 1 midfielder for £9m, you have made a loss on Henderson and probably massively overpaid for the other guy. You have about £15m "tied up" in Henderson and selling him for less than that involves throwing some money away. You can't sell players left over from the Benitez/Hodgson era for less than you bought them and claim this has somehow made you money, particularly if your replacements cost slightly more.

thats true for most signings though. sure you have the exceptions like torres, alonso, ronaldo, rvp but that just doesnt happen everyday. if players are sold by a top club then it usually means taking a loss as theyre not good enough. its a risk a club takes with every transfer.

im not denying we spaffed plenty of money but none of kennys signing were even on the pitch today bar suarez and enrique. both probably his best signings.

[Select_screen_name:]

I'd take Heskey over Owen, I cannot ****ing stand Owen.[/quote

We need goalscorers, so I'm not sure how that would solve things with Heskey ******** up the place.

[Jongi]

the simple point is this. as a manager you will want to know what your transfer budget. for most clubs, when £35mio is being spent on a single player, as a manager you have to step back and ask whether that is a deal you want made against what you have available as a whole.

put another way, it is highly unlikely that dalglish found out how much downing, carroll and henderson cost after the fact. he would have had the opportunity to question the fees paid and whether they were value for money. otherwise are we to suggest he was a patsy?

[LRJ]

Mikael Forssell

Roman Bednar

Brett Ormerod

David Connolly

James Beattie

Darius Vassell

James McFadden

Michael Owen

Emile Heskey

Ivan Klasnic

Alessandro Del Piero

Drogba

Anelka?

Drogba and Anelka havent been released, was made up by some guy.

[PoolFan]

I'd take Heskey over Owen, I cannot ****ing stand Owen.[/quote

We need goalscorers, so I'm not sure how that would solve things with Heskey ******** up the place.

it was a case of anyone but Owen

[Northeu]

the simple point is this. as a manager you will want to know what your transfer budget. for most clubs, when £35mio is being spent on a single player, as a manager you have to step back and ask whether that is a deal you want made against what you have available as a whole.

put another way, it is highly unlikely that dalglish found out how much downing, carroll and henderson cost after the fact. he would have had the opportunity to question the fees paid and whether they were value for money. otherwise are we to suggest he was a patsy?

Actually it's far more likely with a director of football that at best the manager gets to ask for certain types of players and positions, and gets a veto on the list of possible targets. Anything after that isn't his job in that kind of set up.

See Rafas quotes about lampshades and sofas or Martin Jols comments about how Comolli himself operated.

[Jongi]

if that were the case, i assume dalglish would have sung a different tune when he admitted to the players being ones he wanted.

[Robert the Spud]

You would have to ask spurs fans, I think it was pretty split. He did **** off a couple of managers there and to be fair the Spurs board are a little bit more clued up on football, so there was at least a safety net when it came to signing the cheques.

As far as i can remember, he signed Bale(excellent), Kaboul(excellent), Taarabt(obviously had potential), Hutton(looked good but is now sh*t), Dos Santos(undoubted talent, never used), Boetang(again very talented, poorly used), Modric(world class), Ekotto(turned out a good signing), Gomes(Didn't work but he has undoubted talent again), Bentley(big mistake but was playing well at B'burn), Corluka(very good rB), Pavlyuchenko(brilliant finisher but used badly and effected his confidence) and Berbatov.

You can't say he doesn't know what he's doing. The only real dud there was Bentley. The rest either went on to bigger things, or were mis-used by Redknapp.

Obviously KD wanted British talent, and they cost double the price of an equal or superior talent. If Comolli was left to buy from Europe, you'd probably be seeing some really talented players in 3yrs.

[Northeu]

if that were the case, i assume dalglish would have sung a different tune when he admitted to the players being ones he wanted.

They very well may have been the players he wanted, no ones will ever be sure. I doubt Kenny would have ever come out publicly and said he thought they were all rubbish and didn't want them whatever the case.

My point is after Identifying players it's almost certain that he had no say in how much we were going to pay for them or what the budget was, that would have been between Comolli and the owners.

[Jongi]

They very well may have been the players he wanted, no ones will ever be sure. I doubt Kenny would have ever come out publicly and said he thought they were all rubbish and didn't want them whatever the case.

My point is after Identifying players it's almost certain that he had no say in how much we were going to pay for them or what the budget was, that would have been between Comolli and the owners.

i find it hard to believe that fsg would bring in a club legend like dalglish and then impose on him that he has no say on how much is paid for players.

but actually we are losing the point of all of this. that fsg have certainly invested in this team.

[Rafalution]

not sure if this is from press conference today, but: Phil McNulty ‏@philmcnulty:

Brendan Rodgers asked would he have let Carroll go if he knew Liverpool would not sign anyone: "No." Was he confident he would: "Very."

[Kawee]

Fact of the matter is, Liverpool, like Arsenal, need to be much more efficient in order to compete with the likes of Chelsea, Man City, and Man Utd in the market.

The management team of Liverpool and Arsenal can't afford to be just as good as the rivals due to having less resources. They need to make up for the disadvantage by being much better. Good news is, there are so many good deals to be made. The Market is extremely inefficient. Lots of bargains to be made. Question is, does Liverpool have the management team to pull them off?

Liverpool need to pull off a Newcastle, and more. They need to be able to get deals like Tiote, Cabaye, and Cisse, and more. That's the only way Liverpool can compete. You guys, like Arsenal, have far less room for mistakes. That's all.

The reality is what it is.

Downing would rip him [Jenkinson] apart, nevermind Sterling. Apparently he is set to start as well.

I thought he did pretty well.

[paperclips]

Thought we were poor and Arsenal were just a bit better than us.

Both teams didn't look like creating many good chances.

Diaby looked very good today, was always free to receive the ball.

[dking]

Always rated Diaby. He's never got nearly enough respect.

Writing this season off already. I'll be happy if we finish 8th.

[Rafalution]

writing it off on the 2nd of september? really? so does that mean you aren't gonna bother posting until next summer?

FSP is on a free! and Harry Kewell! We'd be unstoppable!

[dking]

So you think we will do well? Top 6 maybe?

[Jongi]

seems ayres gonna be fingered for the dempsey failure

rafa seems that was said in the post match conference

[Rafalution]

tempted to sign up to LFCtv to watch the next gen game tomorrow. hoping Yesil and Assaidi might start

[Rafalution]

So you think we will do well? Top 6 maybe?

i think there is a chance, plus im looking forward to our Europa games and cup ones. i certainly don't think writing off the season after 3 league games, 2 against teams that were always likely to finish above us, when we have a new manager, new system and new players is sensible. Yes, we're horribly lacking up front and it's depressing as hell, but who knows who might step up, or what might happen in Jan. We should at least be fighting for the Euorpa spots

[dking]

In fact I think 8th would be a good season with our current squad.

I'm just hoping that it isn't to late to salvage something in Januray, if we sign anybody.

[afced7]

tempted to sign up to LFCtv to watch the next gen game tomorrow. hoping Yesil and Assaidi might start

Assaidi is 24, which is far too old isn't it?

[Rafalution]

nah you can have 3 over age players. edit: oh they can still only be 20.

edit: hmm thought you could sign up for lfctv just for a month but looks like you can't

[Jongi]

jesus christ. writing the season off already.

think i called 6th for this season. and our performances have not been horrendous. certainly not bad enough to think 6th is unachievable. hell the manager's philosophy is yet to stick. fully expected to lose the 3 games against city, arsenal and the mancs.

[afced7]

Yeah, overage by one year, i.e 19 years old.

http://www.nextgenseries.com/Terms-and-Conditions

See section 7

[Rafalution]

yeah my bad, its not a next gen game tomorrow, just a reserve league one, he can play

[dking]

jesus christ. writing the season off already.

think i called 6th for this season. and our performances have not been horrendous. certainly not bad enough to think 6th is unachievable. hell the manager's philosophy is yet to stick. fully expected to lose the 3 games against city, arsenal and the mancs.

It's not about the performances, it's about squad depth and the fact we barely have any forwards in a system that plays with three. I'd written our season off after the transfer window.

I never wanted to be wrong as much as I do now, but the reality is, we're ****ed.