The 2012-2013 Manchester United Thread: Thank you, Sir Alex

[Andrew_]

Giggs and Cleverley both start tonight.

Forgot Rafael does aswell.

[tomtuck01]

Are you still after Modric too?

For the reported £35million that Spurs want, I would seriously hope not.

[Icondacarver]

Obviously a bid has been made so now the question is what's the idea behind it, especially if you consider all the reports about how much we're trying to get Moura and yet the club hasn't confirmed that one at all. So it's either a smokescreen, one of our main strikers (Hernandez, Rooney or Welbeck) are leaving or the plan is to put someone on the left wing and alternate Valencia/Nani on the right with van Persie on the left covered by Young.

The more i think of it (including SAF admitting it) the more i think it was just a bit of a stunt to try and show we are still relevant.

WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY, the Glazers borrow money from the club and HAVE NEVER brought external cash for anything (according to all our Financial reports).

We would also not be silly enough to use our banking options (Overdraft/Loans) so close to an IPO, as the banks will have to disclose that and it would spook potential investors.

The only money we have to spend is our cash reserves which at last check was less than £27m, even if we want to be optimistic and say it must have gone up by now, it won't be more than £40m (we also would not spend it all).

We bought Kagawa & Powell and drained that amount down, while we have not yet made any major sales so i fail to see where the cash is coming from........the Manchester Pixies & Wishful Thinking Guild is my guess. :o

[7Bestie7]

Icon,

I didn't actually say I believed we had the money, I was merely pointing out what the three potential situations were.

[Icondacarver]

Icon,

I didn't actually say I believed we had the money, I was merely pointing out what the three potential situations were.

It is hard to see the last 2 as potential if we can't actually sign the guy, they are as much "potential" options as us signing Wenger as our new Assman!

[7Bestie7]

It is hard to see the last 2 as potential if we can't actually sign the guy, they are as much "potential" options as us signing Wenger as our new Assman!

Because of the slight flaw in your point about lack of money. Payments over X amount of months and not a straight up-front fee.

It's perfectly acceptable to say that United could sign a £20-£30m player with payments spread over a number of years even if they don't have that money in the bank currently. Especially considering how often it's done in the footballing world.

[Icondacarver]

Because of the slight flaw in your point about lack of money. Payments over X amount of months and not a straight up-front fee.

It's perfectly acceptable to say that United could sign a £20-£30m player with payments spread over a number of years even if they don't have that money in the bank currently. Especially considering how often it's done in the footballing world.

How much would we be able to spread the payments?

We have to pay signing on fees, agents fees etc plus Arsenal would take at least 50% upfront. We would also have to ensure we do not drain our cash reserves, we are after Baines (yes i said it Leppard) for £15m and apparently we are also after £25m - £30m Lucas Moura.

If you include Kagawa and Powell, we are really stretching that money in the bank quite thin.

P.S - We are also after Modric/the mysterious problem solving CM who will cost a few bob too.

[7Bestie7]

Just because one transfer bid might be semi-legit doesn't mean the others are.

[RSB]

I have to disagree about PSG distorting the market. I actually think everyone is treating them like a novelty, charging far more just for them than they are for other clubs. Of course if they really are in for Ganso then he'll go for a huge amount and Santos are going to be happy but they won't be getting a massive fee from any of the bigger clubs for him considering how he has been lately and if that happens then Santos need to count their lucky stars as well as the bills because they really dodged a financial bullet.

Don't buy that for a second. Not a chance Milan have taken their £50m Thiago Silva and Ibra cash and put it in a special 'mad Qatari non-football' account solely for accruing interest. The money is in the market and that market has been distorted by it - it's distorted merely by there being tangible evidence that there's another big money player that teams can bluff as interested parties to inflate the prices of their players. Just because there's a likely 'PSG tax' doesn't mean that there isn't impact elsewhere. Massively underplaying the complexities of the global transfer marketplace just deride them as a mere novelty.

Thought Cleverley looked decent enough in his brief involvement in the first half - intelligent decision making of when to press the man and when to press the space, happy to receive the ball in tight areas and has used it neatly when he has been found. Interesting to see him play in one of his 'favourite' positions.

[Icondacarver]

Just because one transfer bid might be semi-legit doesn't mean the others are.

I agree with you there.

What scares me more than the money required for Van Persie is the fact that we have zero chance of keeping him fit. Our physios have come up against and been comprehensively beaten by every niggle and knock in modern football.

[ddidiodion]

is man utds the only bid to be formally rejected? I thought they all had?

[7Bestie7]

Don't buy that for a second. Not a chance Milan have taken their £50m Thiago Silva and Ibra cash and put it in a special 'mad Qatari non-football' account solely for accruing interest. The money is in the market and that market has been distorted by it - it's distorted merely by there being tangible evidence that there's another big money player that teams can bluff as interested parties to inflate the prices of their players. Just because there's a likely 'PSG tax' doesn't mean that there isn't impact elsewhere. Massively underplaying the complexities of the global transfer marketplace just deride them as a mere novelty.

I didn't mean that at all. The way I see it is that there's the special PSG-tax, clubs getting asked for more money if they're sold to PSG (as per usual transfer economics) but the overall transfer value for players isn't any more than it was last year. Man City and Madrid have turned £30m into the new £20m in regards to how often it's thrown around which has boosted the transfer economy far more than over the last three years than PSG's activities are.

As for van Persie's injuries, I'm with you Icon. I can't see how we can legitimately be wanting a player with such a poor fitness record considering how often our players get injured.

[Icondacarver]

is man utds the only bid to be formally rejected? I thought they all had?

All 3 rejected according to the Beeb.

[Leppard]

we are after Baines (yes i said it Leppard) for £15m

Not happening.

[RSB]

I didn't mean that at all. The way I see it is that there's the special PSG-tax, clubs getting asked for more money if they're sold to PSG (as per usual transfer economics) but the overall transfer value for players isn't any more than it was last year.

Any club official in their right mind (yes, yes) would be in dereliction of duty to not use any PSG interest, real or imagined, to add a little more to the top of a fee. Sure, there'll be a different fee for PSG (and their ilk) than there is for everyone else, but the baseline is increased by the very fact that they are involved - the if the 'PSG fee' is rejected then there is still scope to reduce that fee while still being significantly above the 'old' market value/baseline.

Man City and Madrid have turned £30m into the new £20m in regards to how often it's thrown around which has boosted the transfer economy far more than over the last three years than PSG's activities are.

Yeah, but PSG are just another name in the mix at that level now. And crucially, they're operating at a lower tier of the market by necessity, so the distortion is more deep seated, affecting not only top level players and those in the tier below, but also now players perhaps past their peak or youngsters representing a bit of a gamble. To take the Ganso example, if his rep has dropped as significantly as you're suggesting, then in a pre-PSG world a prospective bidder could have laughed off any suggestion that city or Madrid had a genuine interest, whereas PSG's situation opens more players at more levels subject to this kind of ambiguity in the market.

[aderow]

Not happening.

Oh I'm sorry. Didn't know you were direct communication with Mr. Moyes

[SJ234]

Apparently you bid £10mill.

Lowballing sounds about right

[RSB]

Aww, preferred £8m

[Icondacarver]

Apparently you bid £10mill.

Lowballing sounds about right

Haha, i hope you guys did not justify that bid with a proper rejection. I am sure Gazidis faxed us back a trollface.

[RSB]

Doubt that, would surely know that the fax machines are held together with spit and blu-tac and would have used the Glazer authorised carrier pigeon if anything.

[SJ234]

Haha, i hope you guys did not justify that bid with a proper rejection. I am sure Gazidis faxed us back a trollface.

I think Juventus got that.

The three of you are pathetic. At least give us some more money to stare at in our profit figure

[ddidiodion]

£10m taking the ****. If we can pay £17m for Young then we can at least pay it for the slightly older but massively superior Van Persie... transfers would go much smoother if we didn't insult the clubs before we'd even put in a realistic bid.

[RSB]

Guardian says us and city were in for £12m, Juve for £8m. Modric apparently on strike to force his Madrid move through - no longer want.

[Andrew_]

Should have just offered Bebe for the ultimate troll.

[7Bestie7]

£10m taking the ****. If we can pay £17m for Young then we can at least pay it for the slightly older but massively superior Van Persie... transfers would go much smoother if we didn't insult the clubs before we'd even put in a realistic bid.

96 goals in 194 league appearences is a great return for a striker. Except that translates into 12 goals in 25 games per season (over 8) for Arsenal on average. Now, putting aside his miracle season last year? 7 goals, 22 appearences with 7 injury hit season and at 29 only one where he has played every league game.

Not worth £20m at all. You can't spend that type of money on a 28/29 yr old's potential. It's financial insanity.

[AllStar4]

Sure, his injury record is a concern if we're serious about getting RVP but when you bring up the stats you have to admit that the most recent season counts for a lot more than what happened 4-7 years ago.

He was the best player in the league last season, £12m is lowballing considering that 28/29 isn't exactly old.

[7Bestie7]

Sure, his injury record is a concern if we're serious about getting RVP but when you bring up the stats you have to admit that the most recent season counts for a lot more than what happened 4-7 years ago.

Players with extensive injury issues are known to get better fitness-wise if they've changed their routine and schedule. Now if that's the case with van Persie and it hasn't been made public then I'm all for it. But would you really want to risk bringing in another player (Hargreaves anyone?) for big money with previous issues in the hopes of us being able to get him fit/keep him fit without knowing if he has done anything new or if 1 year out of 7 was a flute season?

He was the best player in the league last season, £12m is lowballing considering that 28/29 isn't exactly old.

Best player in the league or best goalscorer? It's Kevin Phillips being golden boot winner only with a higher reputation/skill set if you're wanting to sign him only on last season. And 28/29 has no resale value, it's the last big contract of a player's career before United starts doing 1-year deals. I'd say £12-£15m is exactly the type of figure a player I've just described should go for. However this player has the "van Persie tag" which Arsenal are using to boost his price with.

[RSB]

RvP was on the magic horse placenta bandwagon from a few years back wasn't he? So deffo cured.

Snazzy new away kit confirmed:

Interesting quotes from Sir Alex in the press today, acknowledging the midfield black hole while admitting he's got no intention of doing anything about it:

I think Carrick is the key to it. He did really well in second half of last season and I think he's going to be the key man. Scholes will obviously play his part, Giggs as well and Cleverley hopefully, as well as Anderson if he keeps fit. They will all play a part but, for me, Carrick is the key player.

Michael has always had slow starts to a season. He denies this. He doesn't think that's true, but I do. By the time he gets to December, he starts playing consistently well. He had a really good end to the season. If you look at the central midfielders in the Premier League, he can match up against any of them in terms of quality. The likes of Luka Modric, Yaya Toure, those are probably the best central midfielders - as well as Steven Gerrard, depending on where you play him, but I'm not sure he's actually a central midfield player. Michael can read the game and also play in front of the back four. In the modern day game, you don't need tacklers the same way you used to. There's no call for it. It's all about anticipation and reading the game. The refereeing is of such a standard that you can hardly tackle anyone now, so that sort of thing isn't the same issue as it used to be.

We do have an issue in central midfield, there's no doubt about that, because getting a Scholes or a Carrick is very difficult these days.

We have the boy Nick Powell coming through, but he's young and although he's a very good talent he'll eventually be a midfield player.

The boy Cleverley will contribute if he can stay clear of injuries. He had a horrendous year last year but if he can get through a season he'll contribute because he's a very clever player.

But we have plenty of ammunition in Ashley Young, Nani, Antonio Valencia, Shinji Kagawa, Wayne Rooney, Danny Welbeck and Chicharito - and maybe Dimitar Berbatov will have to stay and we have Macheda.

In the centre-back positions we have hopefully Vidic ready to start the season, Smalling and Jones. They were very unlucky last season, they had intermittent injuries, but they are there for the long run in terms of replacing Vidic and Ferdinand.

[JJ72]

SAF wants a more settled team in Europe next year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18936657

Also check out the comments about Carrick, sounds like the team's going to be built around him...

RSB beat me to it

[Sheps.]

Glad our RvP bid was rejected, really don't want him. He's a great player and can do some unbelievable things, but we already have enough strikers and I'd sooner see Berbs stay. I'd rather we concentrated on buying what we need as well rather than RvP and an extremely overpriced wonderkid (actually, I'd be interested to hear what PMLF thinks of Moura and his price tag?)

We are in dire need of a left back. CM is pretty much covered like SAF says, with Carrick/Scholes still good enough to boss it, then Clevs/Ando hopefully staying injury free and Giggs just filling in wherever he's needed most. Of course, the chances of Ando staying fit are slim and really we should be looking towards selling him and bringing in someone else this summer.

[McMaster#28]

CM is pretty much covered like SAF says

We do have an issue in central midfield, there's no doubt about that

:confused:

[Gizzy]

Glad our RvP bid was rejected, really don't want him. He's a great player and can do some unbelievable things, but we already have enough strikers and I'd sooner see Berbs stay. I'd rather we concentrated on buying what we need as well rather than RvP and an extremely overpriced wonderkid (actually, I'd be interested to hear what PMLF thinks of Moura and his price tag?)

We are in dire need of a left back. CM is pretty much covered like SAF says, with Carrick/Scholes still good enough to boss it, then Clevs/Ando hopefully staying injury free and Giggs just filling in wherever he's needed most. Of course, the chances of Ando staying fit are slim and really we should be looking towards selling him and bringing in someone else this summer.

Couldn't disagree more with you or SAF. Carrick is the only midfielder we can rely on for a whole season. And we are in desperate need for another one.

Carrick plus new midfield superstar*, with Scholes, Cleverley and Anderson as backup/rotation.

*Would be happy with Rooney playing that role if funds aren't available

[SJ234]

£10m taking the ****. If we can pay £17m for Young then we can at least pay it for the slightly older but massively superior Van Persie... transfers would go much smoother if we didn't insult the clubs before we'd even put in a realistic bid.

No less insulting than the other bids tbf.

Guardian says us and city were in for £12m, Juve for £8m. Modric apparently on strike to force his Madrid move through - no longer want.

I have also seen you down as £8mill. Basically your bid was insulting.

[Sheps.]

:confused:

Yeh there's quite clearly an issue, but he's obviously highlighting that he thinks we are covered there. And we do have a good number of CM's, whether or not they can stay fit is another issue.

Personally, I'd like to see a top CM brought in, or if we could figure out a way to clone Carrick that'd be top, and then our CM options would be good enough to compete with City's/Chelsea's midfield.

[JJ72]

It's funny how one good season suddenly makes Carrick good enough to carry our midfield - 2 years ago he was sitting regularly on the bench and his position at Utd being questioned.

[x42bn6]

It's funny how one good season suddenly makes Carrick good enough to carry our midfield - 2 years ago he was sitting regularly on the bench and his position at Utd being questioned.

Michael Carrick, bench regular

Like all players, he goes through the odd patch of bad form.

[Gizzy]

Kagawa Starts today and Smalling is out for 10 weeks, needs an op.

Game kicks off at 2pm for those that don't know.

[JJ72]

Well 28 league appearances isn't a full season is it? But I'm sure there was a point when his form dropped off and rumours were circulating about his future at the club.

January 2011 was when the rumours flew - knew I wasn't going mad.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2011/01/22/2317900/manchester-united-will-allow-michael-carrick-to-leave-old

I guess Ando's injuries and Fletcher's illness helped him become our number one midfielder.

[tomtuck01]

The curse of the metatarsal.

[Gizzy]

Carricks form did drop after he got raped in the first Barcelona CL Final, lost his confidence.

But he was back to his best last season and was the best midfielder in the league behind Yaya.

I have no concerns over Carrick for the coming season, everyone else in the midfield on the other hand.

[7Bestie7]

Just to show how insane the reporting on some of these things are.

"The Irish Examiner understands that United feel they have made a very persuasive case to the forward, despite competition from Juventus and Manchester City. Van Persie is known to be a long-time supporter of the Serie A club but, although he would hugely welcome the opportunity to play in Turin, he is less willing to accept the kind of reduced wages such a transfer would necessitate, given his market value. Juventus are apparently struggling to come up with the funds to get anywhere near the Manchester clubs."

Now consider the most I've seen either Manchester clubs reported bid was around £12-£15m, that's not saying much for Juventus' financial muscle if true.

I think we can all agree that transfer speculation has destroyed the "no smoke without fire" saying. The journalists are great at making their own bloody smoke signals.

[Andrew_]

Kagawa Starts today and Smalling is out for 10 weeks, needs an op.

Game kicks off at 2pm for those that don't know.

Cheers. My calendar had it down as 3pm so would have missed the first half.

The officials are tiny.

[JJ72]

I would disagree - Carrick has struggled in his time at Utd to settle and show his true form. He always looks like he needs a confidence boost. His form last season was a marked step up from any previous season otherwise people wouldn't have been discussing the lack of renewal of his contract previously. Suddenly, he's the best thing since sliced bread and can carry the Utd midfield on his shoulders. I would suggest his lack of mobility (physically and dare I suggest mentally?) suggest otherwise. However, I would be very happy with a repeat of last season's performances alongside another quality player - it's a shame SAF thinks otherwise. I can't see us doing much in Europe (again) with such a poor defensive side to our midfield.

[JJ72]

I'm sure he started the season not a first choice. It wasn't until cleverley and Ando got injured that he was regularly starting - that doesn't sound like a player who has had a major impact every season to me.

[Sheps.]

So your saying Carrick didn't have a major impact this season?

edit - @jj72

[JJ72]

I would disagree - Carrick has struggled in his time at Utd to settle and show his true form. He always looks like he needs a confidence boost. His form last season was a marked step up from any previous season otherwise people wouldn't have been discussing the lack of renewal of his contract previously. Suddenly, he's the best thing since sliced bread and can carry the Utd midfield on his shoulders. I would suggest his lack of mobility (physically and dare I suggest mentally?) suggest otherwise. However, I would be very happy with a repeat of last season's performances alongside another quality player - it's a shame SAF thinks otherwise. I can't see us doing much in Europe (again) with such a poor defensive side to our midfield.

Think the bold answers that.

[Sheps.]

Yeh, that's wrong though seeing as between 2006 and 2008 he was one of our best players, arguably only behind Ronaldo in terms of his importance to the team. He had one pretty poor season after that first Barca final where he was nowhere near the high levels he had already set himself.

[JJ72]

Nobody played more games than him though did they? Nor in any other season in his time here in midfield.

Nobody (in Midfield) played more games than him because firstly injuries, illness and old age stopped others being picked and secondly as I've already said, he did have a very good season last year - I'm not disputing that!

Just his star was on the wane the previous season and then because of circumstances he got his chance and took it. I'm yet to see any evidence that his star wasn't on the wane at United prior to last season.

[7Bestie7]

Carrick's issue has been too-fold. He is a creative defensive player without actually being a true Regista (which means people can't work out if he is supposed to defend or create half the time) and his two major dips in form for United have been after the shellacking our midfield has taken in the two Barcelona finals. The first doesn't matter too much unless we're against the biggest teams and the second, I think, comes from him ending up re-evaluating his game and second guessing himself.

But no matter what, Carrick's arrival at the club has coincided with a major number of trophies. Sure he has flaws and the biggest one is that when he is on a downslide, United don't have anyone else to replace him so he (and the team) are forced to play through the slump regardless.

[Gooders86]

i thought Amos went out on loan?